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Psychology (Conversations 1975)

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Conversations and Morning Walks

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Karuna?

Mr. Cortez: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez.

Prabhupāda: From India? Karuna?

Hṛdayānanda: Mexican.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna.

Hanumān: And the lady here is a psychologist.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hṛdayānanda: I can explain to them what I'm doing. (Spanish)

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo
yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ
tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir
dhruvā nītir matir mama
(Spanish)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the topmost yogi, Yogeśvara. (break)

Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) (break)

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Hṛdayānanda: He said he has studied all of Western philosophy, he's not that familiar with Eastern philosophy, and his present interest is in the philosophy of anthropology. He's interested in studying man, his body, also the spirit, how man can transcend his body, and that he has come here because he wants to learn something about the philosophy of the East.

Prabhupāda: And this girl is psychologist?

Psychologist (Lady): (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: She works in an institute of psychology, and she is particularly studying human conduct, why people act the way they do, and she's also interested in learning something about our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity?

Psychologist: No.

Prabhupāda: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body—mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?

Psychologist: (Spanish)

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body—mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?

Psychologist: :(Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jāyate na mriyate va kadacit. Read it.

Hṛdayānanda:

na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin
nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ
ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo
na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre
(BG 2.20)

(Spanish)

Prabhupāda: So the soul transmigrates to another body. That is the evolutionary process for anthropology, basic principle of anthropology. So in Darwin's theory there is no admission of the soul. Therefore it is imperfect. The soul transmigrates from one type of body to another type. And then there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So when we get this human form of body we get all intelligence. And we should utilize this intelligence how to stop this transmigration of the soul from one body to another. So what is your opinion?

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the baby is, the soul is, transmigrated from baby's body to child's body, child's body to boy's body, boy's body to youthful body, so the body vanishes, and because the soul remains, he gets another body. Now I am old man. I remember I had a child's body, I was lying down. I quite remember it. But that body is not existing. So this is the example. Everyone has experience. This is transmigration of the soul from one body to another. And at the time of death, the psychological condition of the mind will carry me to a suitable body, and I shall enter into the womb of my mother through the semina of the father, and the mother will give that a particular type of body, and when it is completely manufactured, then I come out and begin my again. Therefore we find varieties of forms, but in each and every form there is the soul. Now, in the human form of life, we should utilize our intelligence that "This constant change of body, how it can be stopped?" And we should remain in our eternal body because I am eternal, but psychologically I am simply changing different forms of body, and at the time of change of body I have to undergo so many sufferings. To remain within the womb of the mother for ten months in packed up condition, it is a very terrible punishment. But for each new birth, we have to undertake this terrible suffering. Sometimes nowadays they're being killed. So to avoid all these dangers, one should try to remain in his spiritual body so that there will be no more chance of accepting material... Find out this, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Hṛdayānanda: (reads Spanish)

Psychologist: (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: She wants to know what disciplines we have, what practices we have. Also she had a misunderstanding. She said "for the beginners," so I was explaining it was the same for the beginners.

Prabhupāda: The main principle is, to understand spiritual subject matter, one must be sinless. You find that verse,

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
(BG 7.28)

(break) ...ess, more we can understand spiritual matters. Therefore among our students, the four principles... (break) Explain. Yes, are prohibited.

Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: He says if to be sinless is not something more profound than simply restricting the body from some things, if there's not a more profound aspect of sinlessness.

Prabhupāda: The body is consider... Just like if you have got high fever, you cannot act your brain.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in European history many, many people, in the name of looking for transcendence, there have been so many wars, hatred between men, and, you may know, in Spain they had what is called the Inquisition where they burned so many people. And so he's saying, psychologically, that his brain tells him that in the name of searching after transcendence there has been so much bad, so how is this different?

Prabhupāda: The difference is transcendence is beyond our mind, bodily activities, mental activities or intelligence. The European philosophers and transcendentalists, they do not know actually what is transcendence. They understand that there is something, but they do not know what it is. Therefore they speculate by their imperfect senses. Gradually it becomes craziness. Therefore you find that defect.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So do you mean to say that this is just a contemplative thing that doesn't really have a active influence upon the society to change the different...?

Prabhupāda: No, we must first of all understand that our senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not perfect. So anything understood by manipulating our imperfect senses, that is not real knowledge. So our process of understanding real knowledge is to take it from the person who has the real knowledge. Just like if we contemplate or speculate who is my father, it is never possible to understand who is my father. But if we receive the words from mother that "Here is your father," that is perfect. Therefore the process of knowledge should be not to speculate but to receive it from the perfect person. If we receive knowledge from a mental speculator, that is not perfect knowledge.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that with his psychology he cannot accept that there should be some clue, some key, that could permit him to accept it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That psychology is perfect where there is clue. Otherwise you will speculate all your life.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Then he's asking, he's humbly asking you to give him a little bit of the clue.

Prabhupāda: Yes, just like... It is very common sense clue. Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you were a child. So in your child body, you were present there, and in your boyhood body, you were present there. In your youthhood body, you were present there. Now you are middle-aged. You are there. I am old man. I am there. So body, the childhood body, the boyhood body, the youthhood body, they are no more existing, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal; the body is temporary. This is the clue. Therefore the conclusion is that as I have changed so many body but still I am existing, therefore, when I shall change this body, I will exist. Now, I have transmigrated from babyhood body to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. Similarly, I shall transmigrate to another body. A you..., young man can say, "No, no, I don't believe in the old body," but that does not mean he will not get the old body. He will get it by laws of nature. That is compulsory. Similarly, if somebody says, "I don't believe in the next life," that does not mean he is authority. Nature will give him. Nature will not agree or obey the imperfect person. The same example: if the young man says, "I don't want old body," nature will not hear him. Nature will give him, force him: "You must accept old body." Everyone does not want to die, but nature puts him forcibly: "Yes, you must die." So after all, we are perfectly under the control of superior authority. We cannot become independent, and our independent thoughts has no value.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks this will increase our problem because psychologically it's bad that nature is so big and we're so tiny.

Prabhupāda: Well, you have already increased your problem.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How?

Prabhupāda: There is no solution. There is no solution. You have no solution for anything, so you have increased your problems. Without perfect knowledge, you'll simply increase your problems. That's all.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we get this perfect knowledge and how can we practice it if we're like prisoners?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You have to go to the perfect person.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said first of all that he asked you to give evidence, but that you did not. You said that you'd have evidence, but you did not give it.

Prabhupāda: Here is evidence. I have said that Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor lives within the body. Now you just try to understand and you will find that yes, this body is not the... This is a property. The proprietor is within. That is perfect knowledge. Just like a big mill going on. But if somebody does not find out the proprietor, then does it mean that there is no proprietor?

Professor: I am the owner of my own self.

Prabhupāda: You are the not owner, but you are occupier.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Balavanta: These are some psychologists, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from the University of Georgia. This is Michael Green(?). He's a lawyer in Atlanta helping us.

Prabhupāda: So your question was devotee and not devotee, no? You questioned?

Guest (4): I am a Christian, yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Your question...

Guest (4): Oh, do I have a question? Yes, to my question, you answered it. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the question of Mr. Psychiatrist? Who is psychiatrist? You are? Come here.

Guest (7): No, I have just come to listen.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. The other day in Caracas two or three psychiatrists came. His question was how to solve the problems. So our statement is that unless you treat the spiritual disease of the human society, then the problems will increase. It will be never be solved. The real disease is spiritual disease.

Guest (7): The young children also? What about young children?

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization..."

Prabhupāda: Nature, viṣṇu-māyā, nature. They are bewildered simply by seeing the nature. Then?

Satsvarūpa: Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.

When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him."

Prabhupāda: Absolute, that is absolute.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Satsvarūpa: "Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by so doing have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord."

Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you can write this book nicely all together, it will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa will bless you and help you.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: But he did not believe in Kṛṣṇa and he followed Gītā. Just see.

Guest (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, just try to understand the psychology. He says plainly that I do not believe there was anybody Kṛṣṇa, living ever. And he's following Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Just see his position.

Guest (2): No, he must have also answered this question.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no questioning. If you do not believe in somebody, how you are reading His book of knowledge?

Guest (2): That's my point also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so therefore... This kind of leader we are following, contradictory. That is our misfortune.

Guest (1): Swamiji we are not following any person but we do see the realities all around the world.

Prabhupāda: Realities... If you have no knowledge, what do you know about reality? If you have no knowledge, then what is reality, what is non-reality, how can you know? If your knowledge is imperfect, then how you can say reality? Suppose beyond this wall you cannot see, and how you can speak of the reality beyond this wall? That is misfortune. You do not see what is there clearly, and you are speaking on the reality. Your senses are defective. What do you know about reality?

Room Conversation with Tripurari -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion is very nice.

Devotee (1): And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams. They are very attracted to the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Tripurāri: Many of the karmīs appreciate the Fourth Canto, part four, the story of King Purañjana. They understand that.

Devotee (2): There's many psychologists at the airport. I would attract them by giving them that particular volume and saying how this deals with the psychology of the conditioned self. And they were attracted in that way.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice, Purañjana. His city, his gates, various manifestation.

Devotee (4): Sometimes we are very encouraged because we find people, they come back to us. They say, "I have gotten this volume, and I'd like to have the first part" or "I'd like to have the Second Canto." I found that in the army base among the soldiers... I went to distribute at an army base with the soldiers. And one man saw me, and he came up, and he says, "Can I have the Second Canto? I liked the first one so much." It's enlivening for us.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes they come and demand.

Tripurāri: More books, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Interview -- March 5, 1975, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Naturally, woman requires protection by the man. In the childhood she is protected by the father, and youth time she is protected by the husband, and old age she is protected by elderly sons. That is natural.

Female Reporter: That goes against the thinking of a lot of people in America now. Do you know that?

Prabhupāda: No... America, maybe, but this is the natural position. Women require protection.

Female Reporter: Who decides who's natural? And what's natural?

Prabhupāda: Natural means just like in psychology it is said that woman, the highest brain substance of woman is thirty-six ounce, whereas the highest brain substance of man is sixty-four ounce. So there is difference by nature, of the brain.

Female Reporter: Well (laughter), to get to something else, what do you do for fun when you're in New York?

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? I...

Śrutakīrti: You have defeated her.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Female Reporter: (laughs) But I'm not going to pursue your line of logic. And what do you do for fun?

Prabhupāda: No, that is natural defeat. You cannot avoid it. (laughter)

Female Reporter: I can't what?

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prajāpati: ...Dr. Harris. And this book's central tenet is that we can be happy in life simply by patting each other on the back and approving of what each other does.

Acyutānanda: No one's saying stabbing... (?)

Trivikrama: Actually material nature's kicking them on the head and shoulders every minute. And they're thinking everything is OK. That is māyā.

Pañcadraviḍa: One of the principles, I'm told, of psychology's is whether a person can pass semmina or not. If he can pass semina, then he's considered normal, and if he can't, he's subnormal. This is the standard.

Acyutānanda: So he has said to...

Prabhupāda: Now our next point is that we say that God, the person, is identical with His name. Now, if, by meeting God, by seeing God, you become purified, then by chanting His name also, you'll become purified, because we say God and His name, identical. But if, by meeting God, you become immediately purified of material contamination, similarly, by chanting God's name you immediately become purified. So what is that name of God that acts immediately, exactly like God? So far Kṛṣṇa name is concerned, it is practically that so many thousands of men, they are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," and they are becoming purified. So find out any other name which can act equally. Then that is accepted as God's name, not by imagination.

Pañcadraviḍa: How do you find out, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: But you must come back. He said, "Oh, I am not coming back again?" "No." "No, no, then I don't want." Yes, that is the psychology. The Russians, when some aeronaut was flying high in the sky, he was seeing: "Where is my Moscow?" Yes, it was published. That is māyā. The... Another incidence happenned that when the jet was in danger, he was thinking of "How to come back home?" This is māyā. Cannot go. Even though you like to go, still, it will attract you again, back to hell. Otherwise, how people are living in—what is called? That place where is ice?

Haṁsadūta: Alaska.

Brahmānanda: Greenland.

Jagadisa: North Pole?

Prabhupāda: What is the name of those people?

Devotees: Eskimos.

Prabhupāda: Eskimos. Is that very good living? Just see. They won't come here. This is māyā. This is māyā. Āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. They, he's living in hell but māyā is covering: "No, it is not hell; it is heaven." This is māyā. Similarly all of us, we are living in this universe, material universe. We are thinking "This is all good. What is the use of God and going back to home, back to Godhead?" They do not take it very seriously. Although we give all information that "You'll haven't, you haven't got to work there. You'll get everything. Your life is eternal and blissful, and full of knowledge," they are not interested. Plugged.

Conversation with Devotees -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Guest (3) (Indian man): That has got some psychological effect.

Prabhupāda: Ah. In India especially, people like. Sannyāsī may preach. Otherwise, the formula of sannyāsa is given-karyam: "But this is my only duty. That's all. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be pushed. This is my only duty." He's sannyāsī. Because Kṛṣṇa personally comes, He demands... Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa, He says, yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru haya: "Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he's guru." And what is the guru's business? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: (CC Madhya 7.128) "Whomever you meet, you just try to impress upon him about the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Sarva-dharmān parityaja... So in this way, if we take it up, very seriously—"This is my duty"—then you are a sannyāsī. That's all. Sa sannyāsī. Kṛṣṇa certifies, sa sannyāsī. People are not taking seriously about Kṛṣṇa's teaching. That is India's misfortune. They're bringing in so many competition of Kṛṣṇa. Is Kṛṣṇa... And "Kṛṣṇa... Rāmakrishna is as good as Kṛṣṇa." This rascaldom has killed. They have done the greatest disservice. Instead of Kṛṣṇa, they have brought one rascal, Ramakrishna.

Bhāgavata: They have big maṭha in Bhuvaneśvara.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Room Conversation with Kim Cornish -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: ...psychology, metaphysics.

Kim: Yes.

Amogha: He was telling me that the paper he's writing for his master's degree is comparing a German philosopher with Buddhist philosophy.

Kim: Which, as far as I can gather, the self/no-self thing, Buddhism was denying that you're the ātman, I think. Could you perhaps say something about that?

Amogha: He's asking about the conception of denial of the self.

Kim: Of the ātman, yes.

Amogha: Ātman. The finishing of ātman.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how can you deny ātman?

Kim: In Hindu philosophy, what is the nature of the ātman?

Prabhupāda: Nature of ātman is eternal. Eternity, knowledge and blissfulness. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt: (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12) ātmā is joy, ānanda, blissful.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.

Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.

Prabhupāda: Free?

Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away to the hospitals and prisons. One boy he collected in one day, he won the contest, he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day. Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books, very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books, Kṛṣṇa books, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: So, you are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. (break) After reading a book does anybody come and ask questions? Do they receive regularly letters and enquiries?

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.

Devotee (1): So what this law means is that anybody can rape anybody.

Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual life.

Paramahaṁsa: They consider spiritual life as simply a department of philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, psychology.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is reality they do not understand. They take it as something mental position. (long pause)

Gaṇeśa: All of these gurus are being exposed. Just like Guru Maharaji.

Paramahaṁsa: Generally people don't believe it if someone says he is God.

Prabhupāda: The first thing is: what wonderful thing he has done, that he is God? People have no common sense. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. There are so many wonderful things done by Kṛṣṇa. Now what has he done that we accept that he is God? He has fallen in love with his secretary; any common sweeper also becomes.

Paramahaṁsa: That is his līlā.

Prabhupāda: The sweeper's līlā. (laughter) (long pause)

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes if we go out to preach and we go away from the association of devotees, what can we do to make sure that we...

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: I understood that you approach psychiatry, psychology, from the point of eastern philosophy.

Prabhupāda: So, what can I do for you?

Psychiatrist: I have no question.

Prabhupāda: He has no question?

Paramahaṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then, what shall I say?

Paramahaṁsa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He had told me that he has read your Bhagavad-gītā. He has a copy. Do you have any questions about the Bhagavad-gītā? Has he understood it?

Psychiatrist: I just wished to meet you.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...

Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..."

What is...? You are all rascals. Nature is working differently. That they do not know. They do not believe in the nature's authority. They think, "We have become authority."

Paramahaṁsa:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate
(BG 3.27)

Translation: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is pulled by the ear by the nature, "You rascal, you have associated with this quality. You do this. You must accept this body." That he does not know. "Now you have acted like dog, you accept this body of a dog." This is nature's creation. You cannot say, "No, no, no, I don't want this body." No, you must. "You acted like dog, you take this body of a dog." That he does not know. He is thinking, "I am all in all; I am independent." That is foolishness. The whole world, big, big scientists and philosophers, all in ignorance, and they are being pulled by the ear by nature. That they do not know. What is the purport I have given?

Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, very hard job. But everyone can become first class if he likes.

Mother: If they want to.

Sister: This is similar to many views of psychologists who believe in self-actualization.

Prabhupāda: Belief is different thing and fact is one thing.

Sister: Philosophi..., or, say, hypothesize that you can reach self-actualization.

Prabhupāda: Belief is no good. I believe. You may believe something wrong. That is not... You must know the fact. That is wanted.

Mother: But a person knows if they're doing wrong always.

Prabhupāda: If you are educated in a wrong way, then you will do wrong.

Mother: But I mean a person knows when they're doing wrong. They know when they're doing evil.

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot understand. They are sometimes doing wrong thing as right thing. So many wrong things they are doing. One has to suffer. Nature will not excuse. (Pause)

Gaṇeśa: You have some more questions to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think they have finished, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam.

Room Conversation with Alcohol and Drug Hospital People -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified.

Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and shave their heads and chanting those things...

Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): Well, could you correct me if I'm wrong. We have a society called Ramakrishna Society, a society in Burma. Those people who founded this society and are practicing Kṛṣṇa culture, they don't wear those things, or they don't chant in their temple, but they do all sorts of social welfare type of thing. Is there any difference between...

Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool rascal, a god.

Guest (1): Isn't yours a product of or derivative of Vedic?

Prabhupāda: Yes, completely.

Guest (1): So how would you...

Room Conversation with Alcohol and Drug Hospital People -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: If one becomes lusty and if it is not fulfilled, he becomes angry. This is all psychological.

Guest (2): Yeah, well, when a person is attached to that group in the temple, isn't this, become a lust too? You see, being influenced by the group and also attached to the people...

Prabhupāda: We are teaching to be influenced by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we have written fifty books like that, four hundred pages. You can show some of our books.

Paramahaṁsa: This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Volume Two, Volume Four...

Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes.

Paramahaṁsa: Nectar of Devotion.

Guest (4): You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on books. Are you following any particular path of yoga, niyama-yoga...?

Paramahaṁsa: She says we place a lot of emphasis on books, and she wonders if we are following a particular path such as dhyāna-yoga or jñāna-yoga or what?

Prabhupāda: Bhakti-yoga.

Guest (4): Bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: There are different types of yogas.

Talk -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: There are three or four men coming at ten o'clock. One Mr. Nera(?) from the... They're all from one place where they deal with alcoholics and drug addicts. And they work for the government. And Mr. Nera(?) is a social worker, and for fifteen years he's worked in mental hospitals also. And there's a psychologist from Burma, and a psychiatric nurse and maybe one other, at ten o'clock. And I talked to some people who do radio conversations yesterday. And they want me to check back today. But they may come tonight or possibly tomorrow morning. Is it all right for tomorrow morning also?

Prabhupāda: When we are starting?

Amogha: We are starting not... The plane flies at two o'clock. So in the morning there would be time, I think. But if they come they will broadcast it on radio, the conversation. And perhaps that man, the geographer, will come again. He told me to check back today because he has to see if he can make it in the schedule.

Prabhupāda: So when he will be given time, five?

Amogha: Well, I can give him time tonight if he can come. Otherwise I can tell the radio people to come tonight. I have to telephone them and arrange it.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...if people do not like, that is another thing. What is the wrong if I say, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."? If you don't chant, that is your choice. There is no difficulty. If you agree that "Swamiji asking me. We'll chant," you can chant. But if you don't do it, that is your business. The task it not difficult. Task is very easy. Even a child can do it. But if you are stubborn, "No, no, I will not do it," then what can be done? (?) Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro... You know this song, huh? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... You have got this cassette? Jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy?

Your mind will be always disturbed. We cannot get good service from you. So animal also understands that "They are going to kill us." Therefore you don't get sufficient milk. But when they are assured that they will not be killed, they will give double milk. They do not know the psychology. This is going on.

Director: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. (Guest leaves.) This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in Western.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Then you become. But if he is a loafer and he wants to become prime minister, then it will create havoc. Just like in America. He was not fit for the president's post. Nixon was elected. Then again he has to be dragged down. We say the fit man should go to become a particular...

Guest 2: Our system, I think is not very good. But everyone is taught this way in our system.

Prabhupāda: No, there must be... Just like first-class men. They should judge for which purpose this man is. Practical psychology there is. I think. They can decide like that. Anyway, the society must have all divisions of men, and then the society is perfect. We have already many divisions, but we are lacking one division, that, the first-class men, first-class ideal men. That is lacking.

Guest 1: I think everybody acknowledges that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that first-class man is stated here. Read that.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove...

Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.

Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.

Harikeśa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: The findings? They are going to...

Prabhupāda: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul.

Siddha-svarūpa: What are these experiments?

Harikeśa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy...

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?

Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...

Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?

Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.

Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.

Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.

Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?

Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"

Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.

Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing.

Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.

Bali-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.

Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.

Bali-mardana: That is what they are studying.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.

Prabhupāda: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all.

Harikeśa: Actually the whole field of psychology is going towards yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yoga?

Harikeśa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.

Devotee: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car is here.

Śrutakīrti: The car is...

Harikeśa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kīrtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: To that standard.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, if we're up to that standard of perfection of the Buddhist monks or the Zen monks or transcendental meditators or whatever. So I think it's a very bad thing to take part in that thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: Because they'll simply try to... Anyway, it's... (break) Sometimes because these people have big titles like psychologist or professor and they have many machines and authoritative looking instruments, we become deceived into thinking that they are authorities of some sort, and we let them dictate to us. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...do not study that why these devotees have given up intoxication, which the government failed to stop?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is practical.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, it's an easy enough thing to study.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Siddha-svarūpa: It's an easy thing to study, simple.

Prabhupāda: Why these devotee, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items, the government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology?

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: There will be many professors coming over to see you while you are here.

Prabhupāda: Yes...

Jayatīrtha: Ph.D.'s, and psychologists,...

Prabhupāda: Ask them to see me. What time we should fix up?

Brahmānanda: I think afternoon? You prefer afternoon? Or early time?

Prabhupāda: Afternoon is a nice...

Brahmānanda: Yes. (break)

Jayatīrtha: ...men from the University of Southern California wants to come and see you, the chairman and many of the members.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then invite them and give them nice feast, yes. Make arrangement. Time, whatever suitable time you will fix up, I...

Jayatīrtha: We'll discuss it with Upendra when is the best time. (break)

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: Ah. Brahmānanda was telling me some things about Africa. (break) ...professor who is doing a study on Kṛṣṇa consciousness now. He wants to come and see you. He comes over at least four or five times a week to the temple. He's becoming very serious. He's a psychologist, and he tells his patients that they should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will be the answer.

Prabhupāda: He says? (laughs)

Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. He gives them cards and tells them to come and visit the temple. (break) ...publish some book about us. (break)

Prabhupāda: They should come forward and cooperate. It is such a nice thing. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). They are leading men. If they understand, the others will accept it. It is a good thing. They must accept it.

Brahmānanda: In Kenya we went into one government officer asking for some land for a farm. He also said, "We want to give you land right in the middle of the village, so you can build your church there."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Brahmānanda: He offered that. He said, "All the other religions, they have their... We have certain plots for them, and there is a church for Catholic, a church for Protestant, a church for Bahai."

Prabhupāda: No, no, take anywhere they give land. Yes. That will be recognition. We don't mind for the land, but the government has given land means recognized. That is wanted.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Gerson: ...beginning of a two-year study on the devotees trying to demonstrate to the people in the material world the psychological benefits that come over the devotees as they become more and more involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). first of all we have to change our mental activities into Kṛṣṇa activities. Then everything will be all right. The mind is engaged always, so the engagement should be with Kṛṣṇa. And if we read these books, our mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The same thing, our mind is engaged in material activities. The same mind is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, then the whole thing changes.

Dr. Gerson: I have yet to look into the material that I'm presenting to the devotees but my experience with them is that as they are into the movement longer and longer and become deeper involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just exactly that is happening, that their material nature seems to become much more relaxed and...

Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be no more material activities. Just like you take a iron rod and put into the fire. It becomes warm, warmer, and at last it becomes red hot. When the iron rod is red hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. If you touch the iron rod, red hot, anywhere, it will act as fire. Similarly, if you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa activity the mind becomes Kṛṣṇaized gradually, and when he is advanced, there is no material activities, all spiritual activities. Just like here in this temple there is no material activities. And material activities means based on this illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Here you will not find anything of this.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us.

Dr. Gerson: I think the data that I am collecting will support that and show it in terms that other people in psychology and medicine will be able to read.

Prabhupāda: If you read Dr. Judah's book...

Dr. Gerson: I have it, yes.

Prabhupāda: ...you will get many information. He has very scholarly presented. He has made references from so many books.

Jayatīrtha: He has been running various psychological tests on the devotees, Dr. Gerson has been using psychological tests...

Prabhupāda: What is this psychological test?

Jayatīrtha: You can explain.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not dependent on any personality.

Dr. Gerson: I understand that. But what I'm trying to do is explain to the medical and psychological community in terms that they will understand, and so I'm using the tests that they understand and read.

Prabhupāda: You give him one book, that Scientific Basis of...

Jayatīrtha: ...of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Have you read that book by Svarūpa Dāmodara.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can give him one book. You read it.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Gerson has promised that he will read every single one of your books before he writes his book. He's very serious.

Prabhupāda: That is very kind of you. We have got about fifty books. (laughter)

Dharmādhyakṣa: He knows.

Prabhupāda: And it is increasing. Perhaps in the next two months we shall increase another seventeen books. There are seventeen books pending to be published. They have not done. So I am sitting here to see that this is published within two months. So therefore they are working day and night, the editorial department, printing department. They have got very nice arrangement for working.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Test? What is that?

Dharmādhyakṣa: He's taken these psychological tests that Dr. Gerson is giving, Dāmodara Prabhu. He has already...

Prabhupāda: Who has tested?

Dāmodara: I was tested by Dr. Gerson and by his assistant.

Prabhupāda: So what did you find in him?

Dāmodara: Well, I didn't find them disturbing to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I felt that when I was doing it... For instance, the lady asked me to draw a picture of a person, so I drew a picture of Kṛṣṇa. So I felt that well, this was nice because she was seeing Kṛṣṇa. And then she said draw a picture of a house. So I tried to draw a picture of the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir. I didn't do very well, but anyway, she was thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So I thought it was a preaching opportunity. I think most of the devotees approach it in that way.

Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda asked what you found out when you tested Dāmodara.

Dr. Gerson: Well, I haven't studied the tests yet. We're trying to test all of the devotees here in the L.A. temple and that in itself is taking all of my time. I haven't looked at his tests.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: You were the first one to say, "Please stop smoking. Otherwise I will not speak." They were shocked. They were stunned at such a request.

Prabhupāda: So what is the psychology of this? They cannot stop smoking. And smoking is admitted, "It is injurious." So how you will do benefit? If you cannot stop the stop the student from smoking, then how you will do him benefit? You know that smoking is bad. So even if you study from psychological point of view and if you cannot rectify the wrong thing, then what is the use of studying? You cannot stop it. So find out the means how to stop it, and that means is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Gerson: I've started with myself. My patients are not allowed to smoke in my office.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But these general, the students... You are going to study our students, but you see they are not smoking. Why don't you see...? (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...making other people starve by eating so much meat so in the future the other countries might force us to stop eating meat so that we can use the grain to feed people. So actually materially, economically, socially, in every way it is very bad. They are realizing now.

Prabhupāda: And they will say that because they are not eating meat, they are weak in health.

Dharmādhyakṣa: But their children are not chanting and dancing. You see? In their schools... When people come here and they see the young children chanting and dancing and so energetic, they say, "Where are these children getting their energy?"

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dharmādhyakṣa: So actually their children are being repressed. Their children are being enslaved. Their children are very unhappy. The karmī children, they are unhappy. They are not so lively. They don't talk as much. They don't shout and scream, "Haribol! Haribol!" Their parents always make them be quiet, be quiet, be quiet. So actually our children are free.

Dr. Gerson: In this country psychology and psychiatry has become almost like a priesthood, and people look to them for answers. And if one of the people that they take in that way, me, can give them another answer, then perhaps they'll start to turn in another direction, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Because the psychologists, they are like the gurus nowadays. Rather than reading philosophy books or religion books, everyone is reading psychology books like this I'm OK, You're OK. It was a big best seller. So now Dr. Gerson, he wants to inject in this psychology field... Anyone who is thinking, "Who am I?" He is reading psychology books. This is supposed to be the science of self-realization today. So they're actually more influential than philosophers.

Prabhupāda: Have they advanced about "Who am I?"

Dr. Gerson: So I would like to inject into this system Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service.

Jayatīrtha: Many of them admit that they are very confused, isn't it?

Dr. Gerson: Oh, yes, yes. If you put ten psychologists in a room and ask them for their opinion, you'll get ten opinions on the same subject.

Bahulāśva: Like munis. So many minds, so many ways.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "If a muni, thoughtful man, hasn't got a different opinion then he is not muni." (laughter) And that is going on. They take it as advancement. There is no standard knowledge. You speak something, and if somebody refutes it with something else, then he is advanced. And then another comes, he becomes more advanced than the second one. And then another comes. So there is no standard knowledge. What is today standard knowledge, tomorrow it is obsolete. Another standard knowledge. So in that way nobody knows what is the standard knowledge. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in these psychological tests the thing is not that... There's some defects... Naturally there's some defects...

Prabhupāda: There must be. Material science means defective.

Dharmādhyakṣa: But in the karmī world there are even more defects. You see?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the...

Dharmādhyakṣa: And the tests would show that in the karmī world there's more...

Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move even. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard and they are eating only a glass of tea and this dry loaf.

Bahulāśva:. Toast.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered. So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question. So they are imitating the hog's life, all the human being. This is the defect. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Working so hard day and night, and only sex, that's all. This is life's enjoyment? This is a hog's life. And what else they have got happiness? We challenge them, "Except this happiness of sex, what other happiness you have got?" There is no answer. So this is being done by the hogs. Whole day and night they are searching after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon he gets the stool and they have sex, that's all. Is that civilization, hog's life? And what is civilization? That is tapo divyam: "Just undergo austerities for realizing God." That is civilization. Work very hard similarly, but for Kṛṣṇa and not for imitating the hogs. Now, why I should be interested in for God realization? Yes, you should be. You must be. Why? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva: (SB 5.5.1) "By becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your existentional constitution will be purified." What is that purification? Purīfication means because you are now impure, you are subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore you require treatment to cure this disease. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. And if you cure this disease, then—you are after happiness—you will get transcendental bliss and enjoy it eternally. This is human life. Everything is discussed in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam (SB 5.5.1). Anantam means unlimited. You are searching after happiness, but this is limited. Even if you enjoy sex life, that is also limited for a few moments. But anantam. That is... You will enjoy it eternally. Just Kṛṣṇa is dancing with the gopīs. He is enjoying eternally. So you can join with Him. That information we are giving. Just imagine what a valuable service we are rendering. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva (SB 5.5.1). Your existence is impure. Therefore you are undergoing the tribulation of birth, death, old age, and disease. But they are not making any research how to stop. Nobody wants to die. Why he is dying? Where is the solution? Can the psychologists give any solution, that "You think in this way"? No. That we are giving: "Think of Kṛṣṇa and you will become free."

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.

Dr. Gerson: That's what psychology's been trying to teach people: to do whatever they want to do because they have the power.

Prabhupāda: That's... But can he do anything as he likes?

Dr. Gerson: That's right.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So convert him also to be a devotee. Then that is another PhD.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, yes. He said he would love to come and teach at our college.

Prabhupāda: Very good. But he must give up his bad habits, illicit sex, meat-eating. At least they must give up.

Dharmādhyakṣa: He is giving them up. He says that he is becoming more sensitive.

Prabhupāda: If he chants, then he is purified.

Dharmādhyakṣa: He realizes this. All his psychologist friends, they are just crazy. They are not solving any problem.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. (end

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So what he is?

Revatīnandana: He's famous for inventing the H-bomb. He invented the hydrogen bomb.

Revatīnandana: Hydrogen bomb. He was the main inventor.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a survey of these psychologists, young psychologists, and they asked them whether or not they would like to do research. And the vast majority of the psychologists said no, they don't want to do any research. They don't like to do research because it's all a joke. They don't prove anything. They figure it's a waste of time. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam:" You cannot become a philosopher unless you disagree with other philosopher." Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. (break) ...something drown?

Sudāmā: Yes, they destroyed an amusement park there, and that got stuck in the water.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Why destroy?

Sudāmā: No one was coming any more.

Prabhupāda: All amusement finished.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That will be very nice.

Bahulāśva: That would be all right?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this one psychologist. He comes every week to study Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he plays some of the bhajana tapes in his office. And there's twenty doctors in his office, and he plays it so all the doctors can hear. And they all come in and ask him, "What is that wonderful music?" He says, "Oh, this is from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." He says, "No, that can't be from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They just chant and dance on the street the same thing." He says, "No, no, no, this is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They are very, very pleased. He gives all his patients mantra cards and tells them, "You should go to the temple. This will really help you." (break)

Prabhupāda: This is nudie beach?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The nude beach.

Revatīnandana: It used to be.

Bahulāśva: ...on one side

Revatīnandana: At one time they made it legal to be nude here, and then later on, they repealed the law again.

Jayatīrtha: Venice? It is still nude, Venice Beach.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: This Rahu planet's invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes.

Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy.

Bahulāśva: So, Prabhupāda, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult.

Bahulāśva: I was trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and this astronaut, Dr. Mitchell, and also this other famous scientist, Werner von Braun. But they are on the east coast at this time, so they couldn't come. But they both wrote nice letters that they would like to meet you if they could be in California at the same time.

Revatīnandana: This von Braun is a big rocket scientist from the old days. He designed the V-2 missile in Germany during World War II, and then he designed the American missiles during the space program.

Prabhupāda: What benefit he has done?

Revatīnandana: Well, he's recently said... He retired, and he said now he thinks the only purpose of life is to research about God, to find out about God. He's very famous, so...

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. John Mize: The relationship of mind to the soul, how the mind comes to know that it has or that there is a soul.

Prabhupāda: By taking lesson from professors who has mind clear. Why the students are coming to you? Because his mind is not clear. You have to clear his mind by teaching him psychology, feeling, thinking, feeling, willing. Therefore he has to come to a learned man who knows how to understand mind, how to understand the activities of the mind, how to deal with them. That requires education. A dog cannot take this education, but a human being can take. Therefore it is the duty of the human being, how to control the mind, not act like cats and dogs. That is human being. He should be inquisitive, "Why this happening? Why this happening?" and he should take education. That is human life. And if he does not inquire, if he does not take education, then what is the difference between him and the dog? He remains a dog. He has got this opportunity of human life. He should take advantage of understanding what is what, not to keep himself in the dog status, simply eating, sleeping, sex life, and defending. That is the distinction between dog and human being. If he does not become inquisitive how to control the mind, he is not even a human being. A dog never inquires. A dog knows that "When I bark, people become disturbed." He'll never ask, "How to control this barking habit?" Because he is dog, he cannot do that. A human being can know that "People hates me. I do something wrong. How to control my mind?" That is human being. That is the difference between human being and dog. Therefore Vedic injunction is "Go and inquire. You have got this human form of life." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the soul." Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If you want to understand this science, then go to proper guru and take lessons from him. The same thing, as we instruct our children: "If you want to be educated in higher status of life, go to school, go to college, take lesson." That is human society. The dog's father will never ask the dog child, "Go to school." No. They are dogs.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you speak about Kant's philosophy in that book also? Yes? He is very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kant is very popular. I was also a student of philosophy. In my student life my professors were all Europeans. I was student of Scottish Church's College in Calcutta. So one professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was our professor for psychology, metaphysics. Later on, he became the vice-chancellor of Calcutta University. A very nice gentleman.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Mize finds that he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa a little in the shower now. When he takes a shower, he chants a little.

Prabhupāda: One press reporter in the Berkeley University in the beginning, he wrote his article and he wrote that after hearing this Hare Kṛṣṇa for a few minutes, I came home chanting all the road, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." He gave this report.

Dharmādhyakṣa: I think many scholars have a hard time realizing how just by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is so nice and so easy.

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...that the highest philosophical realization can come from chanting.

John Mize: Thank you.

Devotee: Mrs. Salim has given these flowers and clock.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that... It is coming out of that egg, so there is life. We do not recommend prohibition of eggs because living entity. It is not very good food. It agitates the senses. Therefore we prohibit. Yes?

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor's first question that he brought up that although we are conscious, our consciousness seems to be affected by different material arrangements. There's one philosopher William James, who is like the father of psychology. He says the same thing that consciousness can be affected by removing the material elements. So that is simply the arrangement of the modes of nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same three guṇas. If you contact with tamo-guṇa, then your consciousness is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa, and if your consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

John Mize: James had a very interesting view of consciousness. The brain doesn't cause the consciousness, he felt. It does not originate it. It only receives it like a radio receiver is receiving transmissions.

Prabhupāda: That is the...

John Mize: He felt that the source of consciousness was divine. James was a religious man.

Bahulāśva: Sometimes also he would have a material view also.

John Mize: That matter can give rise to consciousness.

Bahulāśva: Yes. He would take both sides.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. It is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga begins with chanting. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). And the more you chant and hear, you become purified. So I think you leaders of your country, you should take this movement very seriously and take it for acceptance. It is not difficult. Chanting. You can chant in school; you can chant in college; you can chant in the factory; you can chant on the street. There is no special qualification required. But if we introduce this chanting, you will be benefited great. There is no loss, but there is great gain.

Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are aware that they advance the argument of mesmerization against chanting. The psychologists do that.

Prabhupāda: That's good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted that you can mesmerize the drug-addicted hippies and engage them in understanding Kṛṣṇa, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: That's not mesmerization, of course.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm? What do you think, professor?

Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I agree with you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: If it is good... Everything good should be accepted.

Dr. Pore: One problem... You see, I keep wondering how you're so sure you know what good is, particularly when it comes to war. I would be a little more worried I think that...

Prabhupāda: What is that war?

Morning Walk -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What is it?

Jayatīrtha: That describes the modern culture. Everyone runs around like rats in a maze, looking for food. It's a psychological test. They put rats in a maze and at one end of the maze they put some food. So the rats run all through the maze trying to find the food. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...this side, Hawaii?

Devotee: Yes, yes. (break)

Devotee: ...I think they're everywhere. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...coming from Hawaii, this boy?

Devotee: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...he has come, no?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And Jagannātha?

Nitāi: Jagannātha is here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (break) What is the news of Vṛndāvana?

Morning Walk -- June 27, 1975, Los Angeles:

Harikesa: Cerebral?

Prabhupāda: Cerebrum, yes. So intelligence becomes more more who has got more cerebrum. So psychologically, it is... A very intelligent man has got sixty-four ounce cerebrum. And woman, even she is very intelligent, is not more than thirty-four ounce. Therefore we don't find, amongst women, any big scientist. It is impossible. Don't be angry. (laughter) And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. (break) ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kuntī, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas lost the game. They were banished, but Kuntī was not banished. But she said, "Then how shall I...? I must go with my sons." Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. So Rāmacandra was ordered by His father, "My dear son, You have to go forest for fourteen years." Sītā was not ordered. But she voluntarily followed. "Where shall I go? You are my husband. You are going to the forest? I shall go to the forest." This is Vedic civilization. And because she went with her husband, the Rāma-Rāvaṇa fight was there. Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. It is said that "When you go to a, foreign country, you don't take woman with you." Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. But she said that "Where shall I remain for fourteen years? I must go with You." So Rāmacandra had to agree. And on account of taking this wife along with Him, there was so much trouble. And the husband is so responsible that... Lord Rāmacandra, He is God. He could create thousands and millions of Sītās, but not for one Sītā He killed the whole family. That is husband. That is the duty of the husband. If wife's a little hair is infringed, he should take steps immediately. That is husband, not that accept wife today and give it up tomorrow. That is not husband. Husband must be very responsible to take care of the wife, and wife must be very chaste to serve the husband. Then family life is all right. (break) ...do not understand that "I am a living entity.

Morning Walk -- June 29, 1975, Denver:

Satsvarūpa: The psychologist says that the real responsibility is to enjoy sex life and that, in that way, we are...

Prabhupāda: But that hog also enjoys. Then what is the difference between you and hog? The hog enjoys unrestrictedly. The cats and dogs also enjoy. So what is the benefit of becoming human being, civilized man? That enjoyment is there in the hog's life in a better way. You have got some discrimination, "Here is my sister, here is my mother, here is my daughter," but there is no such distinction. You enjoy life and become a hog, and that is waiting for you, next life. There is no law of raping amongst the hogs and dogs. They can capture any female. But in the human society why there is restriction? So hogs and dogs are better enjoying sex life. You become hog and dog. Why civilized man?

Kuruśreṣṭha: When we tell them that, they think, "Oh, that's very nice."

Prabhupāda: You are waiting for getting that life. Wait a few years more. You will get that life. Yes.

Brahmatīrtha: One scientist recently did a study on mosquitoes. They found out that all mosquitoes do is have sex and eat. And he was lamenting, he said, "Oh, these mosquitoes..."

Prabhupāda: Sex and eat.

Brahmatīrtha: That's all they do. He was amazed that they have so much sex life, mosquitoes. So then the scientist he was lamenting. He was thinking, "Oh, these mosquitoes, they probably do not enjoy the sex life." And he sounded as if he wished he was a mosquito to find out.

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver:

Satsvarūpa: ...Uttamaśloka was telling me was that Swami Bon's talk was very difficult for an ordinary person to understand. He started right out by describing how Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and it was very difficult... He didn't do any preliminary...

Prabhupāda: Jugglery.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Very intellectual description of the psychology. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...result of that meeting?

Satsvarūpa: No result.

Prabhupāda: Simply talking? (break) ...come to take some students to his institution.

Satsvarūpa: Something like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: After he speaks, he speaks about his institution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the institution is now closed. So he thought that he would bring some student from America. (break) He is also one of the, what is called, trustees of the... So he has said to Bon Mahārāja "You better hand it over to Bhaktivedanta Swami. You cannot do it." (break)

Bhāvānanda: ...is intelligent.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman reporter: Why?

Prabhupāda: By physiological condition. Just like you are. Your bodily features are different from the man's features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny it?

Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That is material. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially... Just like your bodily feature and a man's bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different.

Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people?

Prabhupāda: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Then why do you study different brain?

Woman reporter: I don't study them. I'm just telling you what the scientists say.

Prabhupāda: So scientists, the psychologist... As I was a student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that "By studying the brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man, sixty-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the statement of a big psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20.

Woman reporter: Oh, dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means... O.K. I see now what you're thinking about. That was many, many years ago.

Prabhupāda: So can you give any proof since then that the woman's... In 1920... She does not take it?

Nitāi: She does not take it. Somehow they think that the brain is no longer small. If it was small, then, it is not small today.

Prabhupāda: But where is the proof...

Woman reporter: You do not believe that there has been advancement of science since 1920?

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Brahmānanda: Yeah, he could not walk. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...disease, heart failure, these are the modern disease. People... Cancer.

Brahmānanda: You were also saying that the psychology of the abortion is that the parents do not want to take the trouble...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I explained.

Brahmānanda: Yes. Of raising the child. Therefore they create some...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the reason? They know there are so many troubles. To avoid the troubles, "Kill this." That's all. So to save trouble, people are prepared to kill child even.

Brahmānanda: And that's considered advancement, in modern life, to remove trouble. The whole life is conveniences, remove trouble. That shows they will go to any extent.

Prabhupāda: So trouble that is, atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛtti, how to mitigate or finish all trouble, that they do not know. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). So long you will get this body, you will have trouble. But that they do not know, how to stop getting another body. So trouble is not mitigated in that way. You increase your entanglement, become sinful. You again take another body to suffer this sinful reaction. (end)

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Woman is not equally intelligent as a man.

Reporter (3): Equal in intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Not equal intelligence. In the psychology, practical psychology, they have found that the man's brain has been found up to sixty-four ounce, woman... Sixty-four ounce, man's brain. And woman's brain has been found, thirty-six ounce. So therefore woman is not equally intelligent like man.

Reporter (3): So where does she fit?

Prabhupāda: You will find in practical psychology.

Reporter: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Practical psychology.

Brahmānanda: She's asking where does woman fit into this structure?

Prabhupāda: Now, woman is supposed to be assistant of man. If woman is faithful wife of the first-class man, then she also becomes first-class. If she is assistant of the second-class man then he is also second-class. If she is assistant of the third-class man, then she is also third-class. Because she is assistant, so, according to her husband, or protector, she becomes first, second, third, fourth.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: And the highest brain substance in woman found, thirty-six ounce. So that proportion is always there. It may be twenty ounce, forty ounce, but brain substance in man is more than the woman. That is a fact, always.

Harikeśa: Is that in the Vedas also?

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of the psychology. I have given the name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. When I was student, he said. So he is a great authority in psychology. So I have given the date. But they say, "Now they have improved." Then what can be said? But they could not improve this position: they have become pregnant. For the last hundred and thousands and millions of years, in the history we hear that woman is pregnant. We never heard the man is pregnant. So where is the progress? If you are actually making progress, so millions of years ago, the history we hear... Even Rāmacandra, millions of years, Lord Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. If you take history, now where is the improvement? Millions of years ago, Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. The law of woman's becoming pregnant, millions of years was there. And what improvement have they made now? They say, "We have made improvement." What is that improvement? Millions of years ago, Sītā, she became pregnant, and Rāmacandra did not become pregnant. Man did not. So what is the improvement at the present moment? Is there any instance, a man is now becoming pregnant. And not the woman? So where is the improvement?

Jagadīśa: Even all species of life it is the same.

Prabhupāda: Inauspicious?

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: This is psychology. If woman is chaste, even though she is not very beautiful, she will be liked by the husband. So train them in that way: very chaste, faithful wife and knows how to cook very nicely. Other qualification, even they haven't, that's all right. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being trained up. Then there will be no difficulty. And boys should be first-class man. Then our Gurukula will be successful. What do you think? Am I right?

Jayatīrtha: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Anything objectionable?

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that in our society the women shouldn't cook privately for their husbands.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: You were saying that everyone should take the Deity's prasādam. But it sounds like the women are being trained to cook, so...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. The thing is that Deity or at home, she must be very first-class cook. That is wanted. That is according to convenience. If possible, they can take prasādam in the temple. If not possible, they must cook. But she must be first-class cook. That is wanted, either in the temple or outside. In India still, 80%, 90%, they are very happy in their family life, never mind one is poor or rich, because the wife knows these three things: to remain chaste and faithful to the husband, and she knows how to cook nicely. (pause) And women and men should live separately. That is also essential. Butter and fire must be kept apart. Otherwise the butter will melt. You cannot stop it. (pause) The drama was a drug-addicted boy killed some friend?

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Brahmānanda: No.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: But this is huge. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...consider nim sacred. (break) ...psychology. (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...singing and dancing are great stimulants to self-realization. And he says but he doesn't know why, but he said that perhaps if we study the glands more carefully, we will find out why singing and dancing stimulates identity. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...parvato muākam aprasavat: "Himalaya will give birth children." So many people gathered, "Must be very gigantic." But they saw only rats are coming. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...is from this school, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is Yadubara?

Bahulāśva: Right here, Yadubara.

Brahmānanda: Poor Yadubara. (laughter)

Yadubara: I am one of the rats. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...also? No.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: ...also? No.

Harikeśa: Viśakha? No. (break)

Yadubara: ...four years, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I was full of anxiety all the time. (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. In the modern textbooks of psychology you find more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Because they feel that they can study the behavior of rats and pigeons very easily, much more easily than a human being. They can manipulate them. And then they extrapolate from their data on the rats and pigeons as to what human behavior is.

Prabhupāda: So, but they say that except man, there is no soul?

Jayatīrtha: But now they say that no one has a soul.

Dharmādhyakṣa: No, the modern psychological definition is that man is a flesh and blood organism and that you can know man by studying his bodily processes.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a problem.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a problem.

Prabhupāda: Then it is foolishness.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, definitely.

Bahulāśva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.

Prabhupāda: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.

Bahulāśva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.

Brahmānanda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?

Bahulāśva: Should have homosex.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.

Jayatīrtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?

Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulāśva: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why they find difference in having soul?

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulāśva: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why they find difference in having soul?

Brahmānanda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal.

Bahulāśva: Actually psyche means soul.

Prabhupāda: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. (break) ...keeping building department different.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...their opinion about birth, death?

Bahulāśva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished.

Prabhupāda: So why again body comes?

Bahulāśva: What body is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is the genes. Before a body dies, it produces some sperm or something and this by-product, and in this by-product there is the life principle, and it is transmitted just like a seed. So the body produces some seeds, and in the genes, in the genetic code, there is a program, and by chance a new being comes into existence.

Prabhupāda: Again chance.

Bahulāśva: This has become a very popular subject, psychology. About 80% of the students take a class in this. And they took a survey, and the reason most students take this class is to find out more about who they are themself. So it is the closest thing in the west to self-realization.

Jayatīrtha: They've found out that "I am no better than the animal"? That's the conclusion?

Dharmādhyakṣa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal.

Bahulāśva: Bhagavad-gītā gives the best psychology.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: How to control the mind to uplift the self.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: (break) So why the dogs cannot construct such building? (break) ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all."

Prabhupāda: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. (break) ...parataraṁ nānyat. That is statement of Bhagavad-gītā: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God?

Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed.

Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Paramaḥ, paramaḥ means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Kṛṣṇa. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so-called university professors.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Ohh! Just see.

Yadubara: In 1963 they had... I think they put these things up, but so many people were committing suicide by jumping.

Prabhupāda: Why they were committing suicide?

Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.

Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "Blind man is leading other blind men."

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the jīva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.

Dharmādhyakṣa: So when the jīva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. (break)

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems.

Prabhupāda: What do they define about transcendence?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, actually they give all the characteristics of transcendence that are found in the Bhagavad-gītā but without saying that man is a spirit soul and without talking about Kṛṣṇa. They believe man should overcome duality, should be beyond attachment, should work for a higher goal in life, things like this, all the characteristics that Kṛṣṇa gives but without Kṛṣṇa.

Bahulāśva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. What is this department? (break) ...cial science.

Bahulāśva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society.

Prabhupāda: And fall down from the tower? (laughter)

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ceto-darpaṇa-mār... That is our process, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the mirror of heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). This is our process, cleansing. Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayas (SB 1.2.19). (break)

Dharmādhyakṣa: In modern psychology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, only until very recently, they did not even want to talk about consciousness. There was no mention of consciousness because it was not a scientific thing that they could observe.

Prabhupāda: Scientific... It is the most crude thing. Everyone knows. Even the animal, even the ant, they have got consciousness.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it embarrassed them that they know everyone has consciousness but there was no way they could measure it or, according to gross science, get some factual information about it. So it embarrassed them so much, they tried to avoid the subject, hush it up, not speak about it.

Prabhupāda: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. (break) ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude."

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter)

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is actually... The whole goal of modern psychology is to make people adjust to the fact that they must stay in this material world and that if you have some desire to leave the material world, they will tell you you are crazy. "No, no. Now you must adjust more again to the material condition."

Bahulāśva: They teach you to accept the frustrations of life.

Prabhupāda: Why frustration? You are big, big scientist. You cannot solve?

Dharmādhyakṣa: They cannot solve because they have the same problems.

Prabhupāda: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Everything will be polished if Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is taken. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If this God consciousness is spread, then everyone will be brilliantly qualified. And without God consciousness, the so-called education as we were discussing in the morning, there is no value in it. Simply they are talking. What is the subject matter we were talking?

Bahulāśva: Psychology this morning.

Prabhupāda: The result is the students are falling down from the tower in disappointment. And they are protected with glass.

Bahulāśva: In the bell tower on Berkeley campus students in the 60's would jump from that tower to kill themselves. So they put glass there to stop the students from jumping. So Prabhupāda was explaining that is their education, that after getting their education, they have to jump to commit suicide. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education?

Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college?

Morning Walk -- July 17, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: "I created God."

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And you were created by dog. (laughter)

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a very big theory of the modern atheists that God is simply the creation of man's imagination in order to fulfill certain psychological needs.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the cause of creation?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Mother nature.

Prabhupāda: So mother nature... Where is the father? (laughter) You rascal, without father, mother can give any birth?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, it's asexual. There's some animals...

Prabhupāda: No, no. So animal is their father? Where is the father? It is all right, "mother nature," but everyone knows without father, mother is useless.

Jayatīrtha: It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Is there any mother who can give birth without father? So where is the father, rascal? Ask them.

Bahulāśva: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Jayatīrtha: Sometimes they say that he is dead now.

Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?

Paramahaṁsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...

Prabhupāda: Everyone now. India has also.

Paramahaṁsa: They're all afraid of using them.

Prabhupāda: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, right. History.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Śiva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.

Prabhupāda: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Dharmādhyakṣa: They empty all their waste directly into the lake. All the fish are dying.

Prabhupāda: Here some fishy smell. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...gentleman first has to understand that he's not the body. That psychologist gentleman has to understand he's not the body first.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So, what did he say?

Bahulāśva: Yeah, he believes that there is soul and that you're not the body, and he's hoping that he'll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad-gītā to understand that more clearly.

Prabhupāda: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul."

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how should they set out to prove it, though? We've proved it by giving scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it?

Prabhupāda: No, we prove it as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing? This is the proof. If... I so many times spoken that son is crying, "My father is gone, my father." "Where is your father gone? He is lying here. So what is gone? You have not seen it." This is the proof. Why do you cry, "Father is gone"? Father is lying here. Why do you say, "gone"? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you perceive, "Yes, something was there. Now he is gone." This is the proof.

Bahulāśva: So our statements are also backed up by observation. The Gītā's statements are also backed up by observation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe that this man is moving. There is something... (sound of someone calling from a distance) (Prabhupāda calls:) Invite him. You are invited come. (laughter)

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the psychologist is in ecstasy every time he speaks to you.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, he is a good boy. Although I say, "You do not know anything." (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't become angry?

Prabhupāda: No.

Brahmānanda: He admitted.

Prabhupāda: He is good man.

Bahulāśva: He has some humility.

Guru dāsa: You tell everyone that and they come back for more. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Bahulāśva: So science means observation, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, observation and experiment.

Bahulāśva: And experiment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is science. (break)

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break)

Siddha-svarūpa: The psychologists feel limited by the particulars means of experimentation that have already been used by other psychologists.

Prabhupāda: What experiments they have made?

Siddha-svarūpa: Well, these particular tests and so on that they're using. So it seems that he ought to change. Because somebody started doing that, right? I mean, they didn't always use those tests. They always change different kinds of tests and everything. Instead of being limited, he should offer a new method of observation, a new method of tests.

Prabhupāda: It is simple, but because of their bad education, they cannot understand the simple thing.

Bahulāśva: They want everything complicated.

Prabhupāda: Complicated. The experiment is there. Observation is there. Everything is there. And the eternity is there. Kṛṣṇa begins like reasonable gentleman, not humbug. He says, tathā-dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), very good example, that "As in this, body is changing from this stage to this stage, this stage, this stage, step by step, similarly," tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, "similarly another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? So if this is accepted, then immediately you can accept that the soul which is changing body, he is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate. Therefore he was never born, never died.

Jayatīrtha: When Arjuna came, he was suffering so much distress, but Kṛṣṇa did not give him any psychological test to see what was the matter with him. He immediately knew it was because he was in the bodily conception of life.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So he is dependent on the family affection. Then economic impetus go on. And I think he has given another proposition that if man can easily live, then he will not work. That is the nature of man. Therefore a rich man's son, he does not work. Because he has father's money, he can spend. In America the boys are rich man's son, and therefore so many boys are not working. They have got easy income, and they are not working. And because there is no proper work, they are becoming hippies. They are manufacturing independence. "Idle brain is a devil's workshop." This human psychology is the same everywhere. In India many rich men's son, until he has spoiled his father's whole money, he is restless. And when he is turned to a beggar, then he is satisfied. I have seen many, spoiling father's money like anything, and the same man, when he is beggar in the street, he feels happy. I shall quote one statement of a very big man, politician, Mr. C.R. Das. So he died in 1925. He was about our father's age. So he was earning in those days fifty thousand rupees per month. Fifty thousand... our rupee or dollar is the same. Although exchange value is different, but the... Locally, the purchasing capacity is the same. So he and his wife were sitting on the corridor, and the wife was talking that "Why you are so morose always? You are earning like anything. You have got respect as political leader. Everyone likes you. You have no want. Why you are sorry? How you can become happy? What is your program?" So on the street one mendicant was going on. He said, "I want to become like that mendicant; then I will be happy." And at last, he became like that. So sometimes one who is possessing more than required, he wants to become a beggar again. So I repeatedly say this to American boys, that "By the grace of God you are very much opulent materially. So if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will have to become beggar again because we know these two things: sometimes beggar, sometimes rich; sometimes beggar, rich..." We do not know third way. Renouncing and possessing. But both these two things are wrong because you haven't got anything, so what you can renounce? Just like this morning I came here, and they have given me this room to stay. And if I say next morning, "I renounce this," the question will be, "When you possessed this room that you are renouncing?" And if I say, "I possess it," that is also wrong, because somebody has given me this apartment to live for some time. So where I possessed, and how I renounced? But we know these two things only. Sometime we possess. Economic development means to possess. And to become hippie means you renounce. We know these two things. But we cannot possess; we cannot renounce. That is real knowledge. What do you think?

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Offenseless.

Dr. Patel: All psychological matters, and in the bhakti-mārga, it is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Dr. Patel: The behavior of the sūkṣma-śarīra is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is... The example is given that Ganges water, even it is superficially... There are floating stool and foams...

Dr. Patel: Dead bodies also.

Prabhupāda: So this stool and foam does not pollute the Ganges water. You set it aside and take your dip. That example is given that. External feature does not pollute the soul. Asaṅgo 'ya hi puruṣaḥ. The puruṣa... it is simply our abhiniveṣa. Abhiniveṣa is dangerous. Otherwise the soul has nothing to do with this body.

Dr. Patel: That's right. No, soul is separate from all the three bodies.

Prabhupāda: Exactly like that: one is on the motorcar. He has nothing to do with the motorcar, but if he thinks, "My car is life. Everything my..."

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: That is the difference between a man of knowledge and a fool. Man of knowledge, that is that he knows he has to die. "But I don't wish to die. So what is the solution?" That is man of knowledge.

Harikeśa: Sometimes they say "Well, why worry about death? It's gotta happen anyway, so why should we worry?"

Prabhupāda: But you... You... Because you are rascal number one, you don't worry, but that is the psychology. This is the example.

Harikeśa: But I want to enjoy right now.

Prabhupāda: Suppose that you enjoy this woman for few minutes. Then you will be shot down. Then will you be able to enjoy?

Brahmānanda: Actually they do that. When some man is to be executed in the prison they give him one woman the night before as a special consolation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They finish him off completely. They ruin him. (laughing)

Cyavana: But death is very far away from me. I am only thirty years old. I don't have to worry about death.

Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? There is no guarantee.

Morning Walk -- October 20, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: But he is thinking; therefore he is getting fat. You generally find the pigs are fatty because they think, "Oh, I am very happy." Yes. One man gets fatty when he thinks that "I am very happy." You know that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: This is psychology. When he thinks, "I am very happy," he gets fatty.

Harikeśa: But if I think I'm happy, isn't that enough?

Prabhupāda: They think. That is another thing. But you do not know what is happiness. These rascals, they do not think that what is happiness. Suppose I have arranged for so-called happiness. Then I am going to die also. Who will enjoy this?

Harikeśa: But I'm not worried about it.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof that you are a rascal. "Fools rush in where angels dare not." That is the proof. The hog is thinking, "I am very happy." Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that "I am very happy. I am getting fatty." (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...suffer. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That's a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the... Of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu-mazara(?) party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is the way. Senayor eva sa ucyate. All these thieves and rascal, rogues... God's property, why you should fight amongst themselves? Property belongs to somebody else. Insanity. Just like this is government park. Anyone can come in. Everyone can equally enjoy. So why not make the whole world as Kṛṣṇa's park? What is the difficulty? Actually it is the fact. Why do you claim? Now we have come. If you say, "No, this portion belongs to us," and another, "This portion belongs to us," then there will be fight. And if we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, every one of us, that if they see Kṛṣṇa's property, so let us enjoy. What is the cause of fighting? The hotels are the centers for all kinds of sinful activity. Huh? Illicit sex, drinking, gambling and meat-eating. No discrimination.

Brahmānanda: Near our temple there's a big... It's called the International Casino, and they advertise in the newspaper, and they have little drawings of people engaged in gambling, meat-eating, show girls and intoxication.

Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: Quality, you'll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he'll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the śāstra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality—it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, "Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?" That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You'll not do it; therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, "Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?" That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He requested, "Now you are old enough. You can reduce." So he refused, "No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on." That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athāśaktiḥ. Aśakti, attachment. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī says that "How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it." This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births. For the time being you go on following the rules and regulations. It is being done by force. Where is the quality? So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You'll not be forced, but automatically you'll desire. That is quality. I am writing books. I am not being forced by anyone. Everyone can do that. Why one does not do it? Why I get up at night, one o'clock, and do this job? Because I cannot do without it. How one will do it artificially? This is quality. Therefore they like my purports. That quality is shown by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. "Oh, I do not see Govinda. The whole world is vacant." Śunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda virahena me. This is quality. Just like we have got practical example. One man's beloved has died, and he is seeing the whole universe vacant. Is it vacant? So that is quality of love. So there is no formula of quality. It is to be understood by himself. Just like if after eating something you feel refreshed and get strength, that is quality. You haven't got to take certificate: "Will you give me a certificate that I have eaten?" You'll understand whether eaten or not. That is quality. When you will feel so much ecstasy in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is quality. Not artificially—"Chant. Chant. Otherwise get out." This is not quality. This is in expectation that someday you may come to quality. That requires time. That requires sincerity. But quality is there. Śravanādi śuddha citte karaye... It will be awakened. Not by force. Just like love between two persons, it cannot be forced. "You must love him. You must love her." Oh, that is no love. That is not love. When automatically you love one another, that is quality. Dora vede(?) prema. And therefore formerly, at least in the Indian society, at an early age they were married. There is no quality in that quality. But gradually, remaining together, the quality of love increases. Then the wife takes care of the husband, and the husband takes care. They become bound up, united in love. That is quality. In the beginning, what the child knows about love? No. But they are allowed to remain as husband and wife. They are thinking that "I have got my husband," "I have got my wife," and as the age increases, the dealings become intimate. Then they become affectionate. That is quality. Not in the beginning there is any quality. It is by the parents' arrangement. That's all. In our day, the marriage was performed when the girl is ten years, twelve years, nine years. Twelve years is very late marriage. My second sister, she became twelve years old. So my mother became so disturbed that "This girl is not being married. Shall I commit suicide?" Yes. You see? My eldest sister, she was nine years old, older than me, and she was married before my birth. And my mother-in-law was married at the age of seven years, and my father-in-law was eleven years. I was married... My wife was eleven years. So in this age there is no question of love. It is not that the husband and wife lives together, no. Unless the girl is grown up, she is not going to the husband. She remains with the father and mother. Sometimes they meet, and the wife is taught, giving some sweetmeat to the husband-official. Official. The parents of the girl: "Just go up to your husband and offer this." So she comes as obedient servant. But gradually they get the connection. In this way the love develops, and when they are fifteen, sixteen years old, they are allowed to live together. Because both of them have already developed that "She is my wife," "He is my husband," psychologically.

Morning Walk -- November 8, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I have got practical experience. In my childhood I used to go with my father for some purchasing some bhauma(?) flour in the interior districts. So there was one servant engaged. One day he did not come. So my father asked me, "He is living in there, in that cottage. You can go and ask him." So I went to his cottage. Practically there was no roof, and rain was dropping. So I saw him in a very bad condition. Then I asked him, "Why don't you come to Calcutta with us?" So he replied, "No sir, we cannot go, leaving home. (laughter) This is home." I have got practical experience. "Home sweet home." Janani janma-bhumiś ca svargād api gariyasi: Everyone is thinking that his birthplace and his mother is better than the heaven. That is the psychology. So everyone, however abominable... Everyone is living in abominable condition. That's a fact. But everyone is thinking that "Who is happier than me?" Everyone. This is called māyā. Unless he thinks, he cannot live.

Devotee (1): What is the throwing potency of māyā?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (1): It is described that there are two potencies of māyā.

Dr. Patel: Mam eva prapadyante māyām etan taranti te.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (1): What is an example of the throwing potency of māyā?

Prabhupāda: Throwing potency means somebody comes to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and māyā will dictate, "Why you have come here? Go and enjoy life outside." And he goes away. That is throwing.

Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They are so foolish. I very strongly talk with them. Still, stubborn, doggish. That scientist, I told him in his..., that "You are a demon." I told him, "You are a demon." So he tolerated. (laughs)

Dr. Patel: They are serving the Mammon and not God.

Prabhupāda: So, so many psychologists, psychiatrists, scientists, they come there in Los Angeles.

Dr. Patel: I mean, the psychologists are the real science which can lead a man to the higher understanding of life, psychologists. The abstract sciences of biology and psychics, chemistry, are little lower sciences. The psychology is much higher.

Prabhupāda: No science is perfect. Asato dhavato bahiḥ.

Dr. Patel: In imperfection also there can be gradations.

Prabhupāda: Gradations, that I give the example: stool, this side and that side, the dry side and the moist side. Somebody says, "Oh, this side is very good. It is dry stool." (laughter)

Dr. Patel: You have to examine in a different way.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is very good example. Stool is stool, but they are thinking, "This side is very good because it is dried up.

Dr. Patel: We see a thing from any angle, sir.

Prabhupāda: Now, this is also one of the angle.

Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Why the other day you told me, "I am now not... I cannot see. My brain is..."? Is it not beating with shoes? (laughter) Eh? Don't you agree?

Indian man (5): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone, but they are so rascal.

Harikeśa: One famous psychologist, psychiatrist, said there is a pleasure and pain principle, that everyone wants as much pleasure as possible and as little pain as possible. So because we have to suffer and enjoy, why not make enjoyment as much as possible and reduce the suffering? (break)

Prabhupāda: They are vacant?

Haṁsadūta: No, they look occupied.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...big building.

Haṁsadūta: Some kind of auditorium.

Harisauri: (break) Art.

Prabhupāda: Art. Some art. Art, music

Harikeśa: It's very enjoyable to hear music.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (break) So why don't you come here?

Morning Walk -- December 24, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Experiment means to examine whether it is truth or not.

Dr. Patel: That examines, who examines and what? Who examines the mind, man's mind? After all, no? And examination of anything depends upon the state of the mind, sir, according to the psychology. More concentrated the mind, better it will be nearer the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right...

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: ...but, my point is...

Dr. Patel: See, experiment depends upon all that.

Prabhupāda: ...if there is truth, where is the scope of experiment?

Dr. Patel: I mean, that you want to, you want to pick up that point, then you are absolutely right, there is no experiment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is contradiction. If you say "truth," there is no question of experiment. That I..., try to understand. It is contradiction.

Dr. Patel: By all these jñāni-yogīs, I mean you are a bhakti-yogī, but I talk of jñāna-yogīs.

Prabhupāda: Jñāna-yoga is also truth if you follow. Just like jñānāvasthitā tad gatena manasā. So that is truth. But when there is question of experiment, that is not truth. That is my point.

Dr. Patel: Then they are making experiment in an area which is not already known.

Morning Walk -- December 24, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hm? That advancement is not very solid. But there is advancement; but that is not very solid.

Śrīdhara: Without sex pleasure a man and a woman would not be attracted to one another.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Attraction means that sex. There is no other. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedī sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the psychology. There is no other happiness. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhī sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Their happiness is based on the center of sex pleasure.

Śrīdhara: So the body of a woman only reminds of the sex pleasure.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Body of man or woman. The same thing. This is the only pleasure. In this material world, so-called pleasure means sex pleasure. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the center.

Lokanātha: They say, "We want to come together to serve the Lord." Is that excuse or is that...

Prabhupāda: Together they go to hell. (laughs)

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in your society, if sometimes householder devotee, they do very big, big job, I mean they are advanced then?

Prabhupāda: Who has done that big job? Hm? You have done?

Devotee: Well, we see all the GBC, and they are doing very nicely, like Saurabha dāsa and Mūrti dāsa.

Prabhupāda: They are sannyāsīs. Saurabha is sannyāsa. His wife doesn't live with him.

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Prabhupāda: No, read it. Let us see.

Harikeśa: OK. "The fundamental premises of the theory of knowledge of Mock(?) and Averniu..., Avanarias(?) are frankly, simply and clearly expounded by them in their early philosophical works. To these works we shall now turn, postponing for later treatment an examination of the corrections and emendations subsequently made by these writers. 'The task of science,' Mock(?) wrote in 1872, 'can only be: 1. to determine the laws of connection of ideas, psychology; 2. to discover...' "

Prabhupāda: That is not science, ideas.

Harikeśa: He's saying to determine the laws of connection of ideas.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: He says he wants to determine the laws of connection of ideas.

Prabhupāda: But idea is also not fact. And what is other word?

Harikeśa: "The laws of connection of ideas."

Prabhupāda: If the idea is imperfect, then where is, what is the meaning of this law? That is also imperfect.

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Harikeśa: Well, actually there's three things here. And they work together. 'Cause he calls this psychology. And the second one...

Prabhupāda: But psychology is also imperfect.

Harikeśa: So, yes, he's going to now connect that with physics. He says, "To discover the laws of connections of sensations..."

Prabhupāda: But physics, physical law, also, you are studying with your imperfect senses. So how far it is perfect? Just like the physical laws. There is heat in the sun, temperature. So you are seeing from long distance, and you are suggesting, "There cannot be any light." So this is imperfect.

Harikeśa: Well, what about the law of physics...? Oh, it's going to run out of tape. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...no practical experience, actually, what is the position of the sun, because you cannot go there. So I may theori.... Here, here.

Hariśauri: Do this side first and then that side.

Harikeśa: Well, he's actually saying that this is the task of science. He's not speaking about the idea of there's life or not in the sun. What he's thinking of here is, for example, a sensation. A sensation is an actual fact. Just like if..., there's a law that says equal and opposite reaction to actions. If I push some thing, some object, that, as this object is being pushed this way, there is simultaneously an equal and opposite reaction which is the force between the object and the floor, and the reaction comes in heat or friction...

Page Title:Psychology (Conversations 1975)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, RupaManjari
Created:18 of Nov, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=93, Let=0
No. of Quotes:93