Prabhupāda: Haridāsa, Śrīnivāsa, and Advaita. They were taking part. Otherwise, all, they were young friends, yes. Young boys. No girls. That is not the system in India. (laughs) Yes. Now when the second scene, mainly their movement was going on and it was becoming popular. Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached that simply by the saṅkīrtana movement everything will be fulfilled. You need not do anything. So the priest class brāhmaṇas they became very much dissatisfied that "He is inviting Muhammadans and all others..." Because according to Hindu society, except the brāhmaṇas... Especially in those days, only the brāhmaṇas were considered the highest in the society, and even the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they all calculated to, in the group of śūdras. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was allowing everyone, the Muhammadans, the śūdras, the low class, the high class, the brāhmaṇas... He was amalgamating everyone. So these brāhmaṇas, they took objection. "He is making a disastrous movement! The prestige of the brāhmaṇas will go." So they became very much dissatisfied and they concluded that "We shall go to the magistrate and file our complaint that He is doing against Hindu religion and He's crying always 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa' loudly. The Lord is sleeping. He will be disturbed and there will be disaster, Lord being angry." In this way they filed complaint. Ask anything, questions.
Priest (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after taking leave from His mother, left Bengal towards Orissa, and on the entrance of the district of Balasore there is a nice temple called Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple. And He saw the temple. Here the scene is to be arranged that there is nice temple and within the temple there is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity, Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. The pūjārīs are there, ārati is being taken place, and at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu entered with His followers chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, and He saw the Deity and danced before Him. And when the ārati was finished, prayer was finished, then He sat down, talked with His associates, Nityānanda and Gadādhara and Murāri. So Nityānanda Prabhu described about the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, the story of Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. It was very nice story, that formerly one ācārya, Madhavendra Purī came to this temple, Gopīnatha, and while that condensed milk which is called kṣīra was being offered to the Deity, Madhavendra Purī wanted to taste it so that he would also prepare such condensed milk and offer to his Gopāla. So after that he thought, "Oh, it is being offered to Kṛṣṇa and I wanted to taste it. So I am so greedy." So he left the temple, that "I am not worth to visit this temple." He went outside the temple and sat down underneath a tree and was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then at dead of night, Gopīnatha, the Deity, was awakening His priest by dream, that "You please get up. I have kept one pot of condensed milk behind My..." What is called... That (pid?) vastra, kings, sometimes they have got, very long tail-like. What is that called?
Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit it is called (pid?) vastra, backside robe. So under the backside robe He kept one pot of condensed milk by stealing. So the pūjārī woke up and opened the door and actually saw that there was a pot of condensed milk. The priests were very much astonished that "Oh, He has stolen (laughs) kṣīra for His devotee." So the order was that "You take this pot and give to Madhavendra Purī. He is sitting underneath a tree." So they, with the pot of the condensed milk, they began to cry, "Oh, who is that Madhavendra Purī? Oh, you are so fortunate. The Deity has stolen condensed milk for you. Take it." So he came forward and he was so pleased that Lord has stolen. "Because I desired to taste so Lord has stolen one pot." So in this way. From that day He became famous, the thief of condensed milk, Kṣīra-corā. Kṣīra means condensed milk and corā means thief. So the temple became famous as the temple of the thief of condensed milk.
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: Then there is a similarity to Catholicism. The priest is supposed to be celibate.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Anywhere there is spiritual conception, sex life is not indulged. Anywhere, either it may be Christianity or Hinduism... Sex life is materialism. That is opposite number of spiritualism. So people are trained gradually to refrain from sex life. And in the sannyāsa life he's completely trained. Therefore he's allowed to move in the society for preaching spiritual education.
Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class. In Jagannatha temple the arrangement is that... One does not know since how long... (someone enters) Come on. In Jagannatha temple... Sit down. Jagannatha temple, the prasādam is cooked every day in new earthen pot. No old pot is used. Once used, it is thrown away.
Prabhupāda: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bhāgavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight.
Prabhupāda: And my maternal uncle's house was in the suburb of Calcutta. So in our childhood, when we used to go to our maternal uncle's house, all the ladies and members being discussed. They will sit down. All the members of the neighboring people, they will come, very big crowd, and they will hear, and whatever they can pay, they will pay. And with that impression, at nine o'clock or ten o'clock, they will go to bed. Very nice arrangement. Usually the meeting was taking place after night, dinner, you see? Say, about at nine o'clock. And from nine to ten, eleven, the discussion would go on, and then the members dispersed and go to their respective home. We have seen. And all the ladies, whole road, they were discussing, "The priest told me..." They discussed very seriously to understand. So they don't require any education. Simply by hearing they become advanced. This is recommended. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ... Śṛṇvatāṁ. Just try to hear, hear, hear. Very nice process. So we are inviting people. We have got so much big space. Unfortunately, nobody is coming to hear. Mr. Khanvar? Why they do not come?
Mr. Khanvar: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, can you guess any reason?
Mr. Khanvar: Many people don't know about temple. Many people are not aware of the temple.
Prabhupāda: No. The thing is these western churches, just like Christianity, these gospels were spoken long, long ago to the primitive men, you see? Jerusalem. These people were living in desert, and they were not so much advanced. So at that time... Of course, in Bible or in the Old Testament, the idea of God is there, that is all nice. But they... Just like the statement, "God created this world." That is a fact. Now those people who are not advanced in those... Now, at the present moment, people are advanced scientifically. They want to know how the creation has taken place. You see? That explanation is not there, neither the church can give them. You see. Therefore they are not satisfied. Simply officially going to the church and offering prayer, that does not appeal to them. Besides that, practically, they do not follow religious principles. Just like in the Old Testament, there is, I mean to say, Ten Commandments, and there is Commandment that "Thou shall not kill." But killing affair is very prominent in the Christian world. They are maintaining slaughterhouse very regularly, and they have manufactured a theory that animals have no soul, they do not feel—because they have to kill. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." Why animal cannot feel? Why you are committing these sinful activities? So the priestly class, they will not also say, they will not discuss, everyone is silent. That means deliberately, I mean to say, disobeying Ten Commandments. So where is religious principle? If you don't obey the commandments of your scripture does it mean that you are following a religion nicely? How you can kill which you cannot create? And it is plainly stated there, "Thou shall not kill." What is the answer? Why they are killing? What is the answer? How do you answer it?
Prabhupāda: It was not there because in India there are so many churches, and they're supposed to be very saintly person. So simply to become a disciple of a saintly person is sufficient certificate. Just like in your country, marriage requires certificate. In India still, there is no certificate. The boys and girls, they are seated before the relatives and priest and elderly persons. They are offered. I am doing that. There is no certificate. But still their connection is lifelong. What certificate will do? That ceremony is so nice, the wife takes "My husband for life" and the husband takes wife, "She is my companion for life." They cannot separate. There is no history in India that there was a certificate issued. No. But still, their connection is so nice, that life long. Now, they are being westernized, especially I am very sorry to say that lately our so-called westernized leaders they are introducing this Hindu code bill, this marriage certificate, this and that. But formerly they weren't existing.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.
Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there.
Prabhupāda: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Because we are... Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences. So nobody has come. But even Christian priest... Even Christian priests in America, they love me. They say that "These boys..., our boys... They are Americans. They are Christians. They are Jews. And these boys are so much after God, and we could not deliver them?" They're admitting. Their fathers, their parents, come to me. They also flatly offer their obeisances and say, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come. You are teaching God consciousness." So on the contrary, I have got reception from other countries. And India also, as you inquired of India, all other sects, they're admitting that before me many hundreds of swamis went there, but they could not convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness a single person. They are admiring that. And so far I am concerned, I don't take any credit, but I am confident that because I am presenting the Vedic knowledge as it is, without any adulteration, it is being effective. That is my contribution. Just like if you have got a right medicine and if you administer to a patient, you must be sure that he'll cure.
Prabhupāda: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even the gṛhasthas, they are called dāsa adhikārī, and brahmacārīs, everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. They can recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is acting as priest. It is not myself; he is acting. So some of my students, they are acting as priests, some of them are swamis, so they are competent to make disciples.
Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us: "Oh, they are mlecchas, they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmaṇa, they are not satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of paṇḍitas and Bhāgavata-saptāha?
Śyāmasundara: Saturday night you'll be speaking in the Hindu Center?
Dhanañjaya: On the fifteenth.
Śyāmasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We'll know after then, if they cooperated, if they'll come. I think there'll be a big crowd.
Dhanañjaya: Actually, you see, it's the younger Indian families also. They're English. They're not Indian. They're more English than Indian. Their children, they don't speak Hindi, and they're playing just like Western children. So they're, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they're so eager to take the books 'cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it's all boring. It's for the older, for the old. It's sentimental. That's all. So the older people, they're coming, and they're listening to the readings of the Rāmāyaṇa and so many other things. And the young people, they know, "Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?"
Prabhupāda: So how to attract the Indian younger people?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done?
Prabhupāda: ...not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion," Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport, or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that?
Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys, he saw our students. He appreciated that these boys are so much after God and they're our boys. We could not give them. Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, was not interested in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so...
Prabhupāda: Yes, (Sanskrit)-mukha. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that "Are you Americans?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in..., gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that "Swamiji, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that. Another priest, Christian priest in New York..., in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to...
Prabhupāda: There was a story that the priest was describing about the hell, so they did not respond. But when he said, "There is no newspaper," then, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) Other conditions—that it is dark, it is very moist, and so many things described. But they were miners, they know that these things are happening daily, so what is the wrong in the hell? Then he stressed, "There is no newspaper." Then they will, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) So, according to one's taste the hellish conditions should described.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, Prabhupāda, that in Seattle you had me lecture on a newspaper clipping that in New Jersey they had opened up one home for alcoholic priests. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Five thousand, five thousand priests, they are suffering from alcoholism. (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus here in India we see that the sādhus are taking gañjā.
Prabhupāda: Gañjā, yes. Not sādhus, rogues. Sādhu's description is there—bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro. Even one is found that his habits are not to the standard, but if he has unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and engaged in His service, then he is sādhu. These sādhus with long hairs and gañjā smoking, they have no idea what is the ultimate goal. And those who come from Western countries, naturally they find out these are the sādhus and they imitate. Hippies, they do like that, imitation. They do not know what is the philosophy, what is religion, what is sādhu.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more Godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned that these rascals for temporary so-called... (break) ...people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned. He was living, his father was a demon, in the demonic state. So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that "I have got a temple, I am getting good income, let me eat and sleep." My Guru Maharaja condemned this process. He said that to earn livelihood by showing some temple and collecting money and eat and sleep, better to become a sweeper in the street and earn his livelihood instead of earning livelihood in this so-called spiritual way. So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achar(?), taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. In your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. They're getting money. So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, eat and sleep, and if possible drink also." But, of course, we are restricting. But naturally when one man becomes idle, idle brain is the devil's workshop.
Prabhupāda: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this."
Prabhupāda: This is the process. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they will be God-realized. Just like these boys. Four years ago they did not know what is meant by Kṛṣṇa. So now they are so perfect. Of course, we cannot be perfect anyway, but they are far, far better than any Kṛṣṇa-bhakta in the world. Even Indians, they say, "Oh, they are better than us." And what is the process? Simply they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they are becoming God-realized. Even last night we had meeting with the Christian fathers. They very much appreciated. And in Boston one Christian priest issued literature, that "These boys, they are our boys. They are so mad after God, but we could not do." So this is... Why they have become so? Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anyone chants will get this status. This is practical. Not only... In anywhere. We have got many Chinese, many Japanese, Africans, and Canadians and Europeans, and Australia also, we have got many Australian boys. So wherever we are chanting, it is being effective. The real purpose is to realize God. So that is being done. So we have to accept the method recommended for a particular age and time. Then we become successful. (break) ...likes you? Vipada(?). No.
Dai Nippon representative: In our religion also, the priests are vegetarian, but it is not for all.
Prabhupāda: Only priests? Only priests?
Dai Nippon representative: Priesthood. Priesthood. (Japanese) It has somewhat changed now.
Prabhupāda: We are all priests because we are preaching. All my students and myself, we are preaching. We are on the priestly level. So our philosophy is ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Everyone has got some professional or occupational duty. Just like you are printer. We are preachers. Somebody is something else. Everyone has got different occupational duty. So our philosophy is that it doesn't matter what business you are doing, but see that your life is successful. That is our philosophy. And how our life can become successful? Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). If you can preach Lord Buddha or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter. I have already explained Lord Buddha is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. So if Lord Buddha is satisfied, then your life is successful. It doesn't matter what you are doing, but by your action Lord Buddha must be satisfied. Just like your assistants. Their business is to satisfy you. Whatever they may do, it doesn't matter. If you are satisfied, their business is successful.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has this book department. Book department and... They may move according to convenience, Bali-mardana and Karandhara. He has got also very responsibility, with this department, that department. He has to purchase small houses. So big brain (indistinct). So similarly, you also think on the books. Everyone take big responsibility. Then we have to serve this mission. The people are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering them. Best service. And without God, it is all useless, zero, all this civilization. Zero. Whatever they are making advancement, it is all zero. And nonsense. But actually it is. Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man. The human society has come down to such a degraded position. It is astonishing. When I heard from Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja there is a big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if there somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out). Homosex is there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct) People are going down and this is the subject matter for priestly order? It may be subject matter for the legislator, priestly order, they are discussing for one week. Just imagine. Phalena paricīyate, one has to study by the result. Not that superficially you show that "We are very much advanced." Phalena, what is the result? Phalena paricīyate, your, that is in English word also, end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) "We are going to support homosex." Getting married. There are many cases the priestly order has actually got married. I read it in that paper, Watch, what is called?
Jayādvaita: I was reading in the Bible...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I refused this Bhāgavata reader. He wants to come here, and no, we don't want these professional men. We want men who have sacrificed their life for God. We want such men, not professional. The so-called priests, they are professional. They are earning money. That's all. Just see, they, how the karmīs are earning money by their business, and it has become a business. Everywhere, religion has become a business.
Prabhupāda: And five hundred, five hundred priests are in hospital for, for their drinking habit. Five hundred or five thousand? You know that? Yes. Brahmānanda gave me a cutting from newspaper, that five hundred or five thousand priests are in the hospital to cure of their drinking habit.
Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand. (indistinct) five hundred.
Prabhupāda: Huh? They're drinking, they're eating meat, they're gambling and they are having illicit sex, and they are preaching. And we say, "First of all stop these things, then claim yourself to be religious, or God conscious." You cannot indulge in all these things. (aside:) Oh, you have kept my one cloth outside?
Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's outside.
Prabhupāda: Because I may require in the.... So, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know, but if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done? We say that "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test. But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process within so short time, how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also.
Viṣṇujana: They're not getting any young priests.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Viṣṇujana: They're not getting young priests. Only this movement is getting young priests.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Very young. Just from the womb of the mother. (laughter) Yes?
Prabhupāda: ...the injunction of the scripture, and still they say, "We do not know." So many drunkards priest, they are going to hospital for treatment ,and they are eating, and they are getting married man to man, and still they say, "We do not know what we have done." Just see how cheaters they are.
Jayatīrtha: In the last six years...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: In the last six years in the Catholic church, 25,000 priests have left and taken up...
Prabhupāda: 25,000?
Jayatīrtha: 25,000 in six years.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Jayatīrtha: Have left the Catholic church, priests.
Prabhupāda: Left.
Jayatīrtha: Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry or whatever. Especially they are concerned that they can't marry. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.
Prabhupāda: Marrying? They are marrying man to man ,what to speak of marrying. Sodomy.
Jayatīrtha: So that's the alternative. Either they're leaving or they're marrying man to man.
Prabhupāda: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, "What we have done?" They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So if the leader is degraded, how can the followers...
Prabhupāda: Similarly, scientists, they do not know what is imperfection, and they are scientists.
Jayatīrtha: Also, they aren't able to attract any new priests. In their seminaries, the enrollment has gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: The enrollment has gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: They can't get anyone to come and join their seminaries because they aren't teaching anything, just (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: What they will teach, what do they know? First of all you must know, then you will teach. You are rascal, what you will teach? That is another cheating. He does not know anything, he is a teacher. People want it. Just like these rascals are advertising, these gurus, they say "You haven't got to chant. You simply come to Guru Mahārāja." That means these people, because we have got so many restrictions, he has to chant, he has to follow, they think it is botheration. So that means immediately they want to be cheated. Therefore, another cheater is welcomed. They want to be cheated, so when a cheater comes, he is welcomed, "Oh, you are very nice. You are so simple, and this Swamiji is so strict." So they want to be cheated. Therefore God sends a cheater: "Go and cheat them."
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started almost at the same time?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is very old. Presidency College is government, and Scottish Churches College, by the Scottish Church missionaries. There was one priest, Duff, his name was Duff. He started in Srirampur, a small educational institute, Duff Institute. He was a Scotsman. Later on, all the Scottish missionaries combined together and they started this Scottish Churches College.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?
Umāpati: Somehow they think they have an answer.
Prabhupāda: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember this in Pittsburgh last year Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that meeting with the bishops, there was a Christian father, a Catholic father. So the question raised that Śrīla Prabhupāda said, "Thou shalt not kill," in the Bible, in the Commandments.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by some Christian priest in Melbourne, very good gathering. I said also the same thing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think his answer was "When the Bible was written, Christ didn't mean this way." That was his answer.
Prabhupāda: Oh, He used that part. He has found out. The rascal. Beat with shoes, that what "Christian, Christ could not find out, you have found out. You are so great. Thank you very much. You are more intelligent than Christ. Oh. So why Bible. Why not write your Bible? Let us follow."
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?
Prabhupāda: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?
Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...
Prabhupāda: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.
Father Tanner: He would admit that,...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.
Prabhupāda: How a priest can be intoxicants?
Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.
Prabhupāda: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.
Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of eastern or western...
Father Tanner: But in the West, you know, your priest is generally made a priest in his early twenties. Then he has thrust upon him the role of the wise man, which he doesn't always seek.
Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacārī, and some of them are sannyāsī, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat-eating. No.
Prabhupāda: The, the priest also, he's surprised, that "They are our boys. They did not come to church, never cared for religion. And now they are after God, mad after God. What is this?" They are surprised.
Pradyumna:
- yady apy ete na paśyanti
- lobhopahata-cetasaḥ
- kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ
- mitra-drohe ca pātakam
- kathaṁ na jñeyam asmābhiḥ
- pāpād asmān nivartitum
- kula-kṣaya-kṛtaṁ doṣaṁ
- prapaśyadbhir janārdana
- (Bg. 1.37-38)
"O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?"
Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why?
Prabhupāda: The airplane botheration (sound of airplane flying over) was not in Switzerland. They do not come there for fear of rising...
Mother: They fly higher.
Prabhupāda: ...peaks. Peaks.
Jesuit Priest: Mountains.
Prabhupāda: So they don't come there.
Mother: No, no.
Prabhupāda: That was the only place in the world there was no such sound. Otherwise everywhere. In America we have got so many temples. Even in West Virginia, hilly tract, there is also aeroplane. But less sound. Here it is near London, there must be. Yes.
Jesuit Priest: Have you met Mother Theresa?
Prabhupāda: Who is Mother Theresa?
Devotee: She's a Christian mystic.
Revatīnandana: She's a Christian nun, and she has a mission in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Saint Theresa?
Revatīnandana: Mother Theresa. She's living there now.
Jesuit Priest: She's an Albanian nun who works in India and is, and has captivated the whole world just by the fantastic work she's done and is doing amongst the down, the outcastes and the desperately poor in the cities of India, particularly in Calcutta. And she's got disciples, young men, young women, joining her, where most of the other religious orders are desperately short. And the youth is being captivated by her, and they can't cope with the numbers wanting to join. And she was given a big speech in the Guild Hall in London and was the first person presented with an enormous sum of money by the Duke of Edinburgh, voted by the World Council of Churches as the outstanding religious person in the world. And people at her speech who heard, it brought the audience to its feet. And all she said in her speech was nothing more except "Love, love, love, love. Just go on giving and look for nothing back," which made an enormous impact, probably the greatest impact that anybody's making at present, in the world at present. (jet going over) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization.
Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Mother: Everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere.
Mother: What about India? I mean, do they believe, the villagers?
Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so.
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To get more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering... They are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollars." Although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollars? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society.
Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you.
Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city.
Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who..., be able to tell people who...
Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling.
Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating...
Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way.
Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world.
Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God.
Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: Very happy home. Brothers and sisters. And we've all been very happy. And I hope he will remain happy.
Prabhupāda: He's still happier.
Mother: Yes, I can see.
Prabhupāda: He was happy; now he's happier. That is the difference.
Mother: Yes. Oh, I don't think he's happier. (laughter) You are? I didn't think it was possible.
Prabhupāda: You are not happier.
Mother: I didn't think it was possible.
Prabhupāda: Because your son has come here, you may not be happier. But he happier.
Mother: Oh, you're saying this. I'm not saying this. I'm very disappointed that he is not continuing with education. I'm not sorry that... I'm happy for his happiness, wherever he is.
Prabhupāda: But what is the... What is the purpose of education?
Mother: You are a cultured man. You're educated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: Did you not learn...? Who gave you the talent to translate your Vedic scriptures?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: Who gave you the talent, father?
Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking that what is the best part of education? So far my school, college education is concerned, that is not being used here.
Mother: Oh, but you're cultured. You in your old age are getting tremendous comfort from being able to read and understand what the world is doing, the goodness of your books, and you have..., you're able to understand the spiritual way of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That...
Mother: If you couldn't, if you hadn't been educated, father, well, how would you be able to have...?
Prabhupāda: No, education is required.
Mother: Now, I, I, I don't... I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed... And little boys, don't laugh because this is serious. Um. I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents?
Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the western countries, the, you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies?
Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must...
Prabhupāda: No...
Mother: But we must develop...
Prabhupāda: I think the college students university students, they're all hippies.
Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys...
Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there... In India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your western countries you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie?
Mother: Oh, but you... We're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you?
Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple, this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy.
Mother: Well, you're educated, you see.
Prabhupāda: No, I am educated.
Mother: Yes, but how many of these are?
Prabhupāda: But I am not educated only on this platform, eating, sleeping and sex life and defense. I am educated in a different platform.
Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.
Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you?
Prabhupāda: That's... For translating of books it does not require... Of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise,... Real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question.
Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor?
Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox...
Revatīnandana: No. No, no.
Mother: ...or typhoid, you... You know what smallpox is like in India.
Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division.
Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor?
Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it?
Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come..."
Prabhupāda: We are treating them.
Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers.
Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.
Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that.
Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern... It's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the new English Bible.
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars.
Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it.
Revatīnandana: Um-huh.
Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by... I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to, doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow.
Revatīnandana: Hmh. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Christie just pointed out that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD?
Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so, they, lots of the young people today...
Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful.
Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they'd rather take it up in...
Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam... (BG 7.28).
Mother: The ones I have spoken to. I said the ones I have spoken to. Even your president...
Revatīnandana: And Father Bernard? Father Bernard spent twenty-three years in a Cistercian monastery. He left and came to us right afterwards, and he's never taken LSD.
Jesuit Priest: Who was in a Cistercian monastery?
Revatīnandana: Father Bernard there.
Jesuit Priest: Are you a priest?
Mother: But I say quite a lot of your young people have come to you since they took drugs. I've spoken to... Even your president admitted that he'd taken drugs.
Prabhupāda: There is no restriction for anyone. God is open for everyone.
Mother: But you said... Michael, I said, "Most of the people that I have spoken to." I didn't say "most of the people here." I said, "most of the people..." One person I'd spoken to hadn't, but I can truthfully say that only one hadn't, out of the ones I've spoken to. They have come here... You are... You seem to be able to help the people that have taken drugs so that...
Prabhupāda: That is my duty.
Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life.
Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Mother: Yes, we do that.
Prabhupāda: That is our...
Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I?
Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest?
Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty-three thousand of us in the world.
Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God.
Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty-two years ago I made up my mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood.
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You are brāhmaṇa because...
Mother: How do you know I'm a grandmother?
Revatīnandana: No, he said brāhmaṇa.
Mother: Oh! I thought you said grandmother! I am a grandmother.
Prabhupāda: Now, that's it.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I think we'd better be...
Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam.
Mother: Well, thank you very much. And...
Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here, his mother came here along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said, "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure as he had just been saying, then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer it. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual something at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet, we have filled that lack, or our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that.
Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause)
Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that...
Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree.
Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it. I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing, do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill."
Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same time, you want to purify. How it is possible?
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conversion, we have got seven mothers. Ātma-mātā, the original mother, guroḥ patnī, wife of the master, spiritual master...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Bhagavān: Can you understand?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of the priest.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou:
Prabhupāda: Rāja-patnikā, the wife of king, the queen.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Four. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhātrī. Dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk.
Bhagavān: We are living, sixty, seventy people in this house, cooperatively, like this. That is a very great thing.
Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, we are discussing this point, that this illusion is going on. But human form of life, a human being can get out of this illusion. We have got sufficient sources of knowledge, especially in the Vedic knowledge. So why do we not take advantage of this knowledge and make our life successful? Yes. That is my proposal. And we are struggling with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with this purpose only, that these people are missing the point and wasting their time and life unnecessarily under some illusion. To try to save them, that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) ...talked with so many Christian priests. Naturally while discussing I asked them that "In your Bible it is said, 'Thou shall not kill.' Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse?" They cannot answer properly. In this way and this way they try to avoid and support this slaughterhouse.
Dr. Inger: It's difficult to answer it.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Dr. Inger: When I asked a group of priests at a meeting which was to celebrate the anniversary of a leading Catholic thinker, I.R. Shadder(?), I just asked him about the Sermon on the Mount, referring to similarities between the teachings of Sermon on the Mount and Hindu thought. He says, "You see, but the point is this, that the Sermon on the Mount is not meant for everybody. It is only meant for a very few. And therefore most of us, including the present company," he said, "cannot use it in everyday life." I said, "Do you mean it is only meant for monks?" He hesitated but said, "If you like, yes." But I said, "I imagined that this was meant for everyone and that anyone could follow it." And he said, "Well, it is too dangerous a teaching to give to everyone."
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Prabhupāda: Here is the gigantic ratha behind the crowd. The police cooperate.
Professor: Oh, yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone likes. Yes. Even Christian priests they also like. No, any sane man will like because... Somebody sends me money: "Sir, you are doing so nice work, spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution."
Professor: I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. From your, these Western countries. Just week before, I got hundred dollars from one gentleman. Simply appreciated that I am spreading God consciousness. So actually we have no program of proselytizing or making Hindu from Christian, Christian... We have no such program. We simply want to see that everyone is God conscious. Never mind through which venue, he becomes a God conscious. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Then it was simply a joint mess, that you go and collect and come and eat and sleep.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we should deal with them so that they may develop their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you simply make it a point, somehow or other take some money from them and let them go to hell, that is not... That is transcendental fraud. What do you think, Gargamuni?
Gargamuni: Yes. We have to preach. (S.P. laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. If by the dress of sannyāsī, you take some money and eat and sleep, then it is transcendental fraud. (SP laughs) (Hindi) Just like others are toiling, and we are getting money by some dress. That's all. They are getting money by laboring hard, and we are getting money... In India, mostly the sannyāsīs, they do that. The priests also, they do that. This is our profession, just... My Guru Mahārāja said that ṭhākura dekhiye pāya rasta karache, rastaye 'yandiya jīvika badram karam bhari (?). Instead of earning livelihood by showing the Deity in the temple, it is better to take the profession of a sweeper in the street and live honestly. He said like that. The sweeper is working hard toiling and getting some money and living. This is honest living. But just like in Vṛndāvana, all the Goswamis. They have got their Deity. People are coming, contributing. Typical example, Gauracānda Goswami. Ṭhākura dekhiye paisa rasta. (?) All the sevaites, they are meant for... Our Kunja Babu also planned like that. He thought, "By cheating all the God-brothers, I have got now Caitanya Maṭha. And people will come to see Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace, and I will get good income. And it will be distributed amongst my brothers and sons and myself. That's all." That is his scheme.
Bali Mardana: I was reading yesterday in the Newsweek that now the priests, they are dating with women and having sex.
Prabhupāda: They must have because they have no spiritual knowledge. Anyone who is not spiritually advanced, he cannot avoid the sex.
Hṛdayānanda: You said yesterday, adānta-gobhiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big yogis, they fell victim to sex. Viśvāmitra Muni, many other instances! Saubhari, Saubhari Muni. He was meditating within the water, and some fish just, what is called, licked up, his gender.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or... Sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society.
Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,... War was declared against Arjuna because he's, he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say they don't care about next life, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is foolishness. Just like a child is playing whole day, and if you ask, "Go to school," "I don't care for future life." It is, it is just like that. It is just like that. How the guardians can tolerate that, that this rascal is going to be a fool-number-one if he's not educated? So we are guardians. We are representatives of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot see this. The rascal may say like that, but we cannot tolerate this. This is our proposition. We must see that things are going on nicely, according to the plan of God. That is our duty. The rascal may say like that. But we cannot stop there. So this is a serious movement, and you should take very seriously from all angles of vision. (pause) Just like these Africans, they stopped my entrance. These rascals are thinking that Africa belongs to them. It is God's property. These usurpers, these rogues and thieves, a few Africans, they are thinking, "It is our property." Huge state, huge land, huge food products can be produced there and utilized for the whole human society. But they are thinking, "It is my property. We shall not allow." So many wrong things are going on in the name of nationalism, in the name of scientific advancement, and people are suffering. How we can see that? Everybody has bluffed so long. Now we have to stop them. This is our movement. You should ask, theologician, the government, "What kind of trust? Is it scientific trust, or simply...?" They do not trust even in... So-called Christians, they do not trust in Jesus Christ. But they are going on as Christian, as priest. Cheating and bluffing should be stopped. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The rascals are flourishing by cheating and bluffing. This business should be stopped. So what do you think, Karandhara Prabhu?
Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. It must be stopped.
Prajāpati: No, they were... One scientist, Galileo, he was making all kinds of inquiries into saying that the earth is round and so many things, and the church of that day, the rascal priests, they put him to death because he was saying things that were not in the scriptures. Since that time, especially the last hundred years, the scientists are...
Prabhupāda: No, the things is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody is rascal, either the scientist is rascal or the priest is rascal. There must be real understanding. That is government's duty. Otherwise, if the priest says, "The scientist speaking against religion; therefore he should be hanged," so that is not good government. Government must see that whether the scientist is speaking the truth. That sense must be there. Yes, world is round. That is fact. Goloka. In Vedic literature it is bhū-gola, jagad-aṇḍa. These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad-aṇḍa. The universe is round. And Goloka. Or Bhū-gola. Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo. So if the state is blind, he does not see whether he's talking right or wrong, then havi candra raja gobi candra mantri (?). What can be done. That is going on. Because the government means a set of fools, so all foolish people are flourishing. Government is a set of fools because sinful men. They cannot be intelligent. A sinful man cannot be intelligent. Yes. That's a fact. If he's intelligent, then his intelligence is used for wrong things. Duṣkṛtina. Kṛtina. Kṛtina means intelligent, but duṣkṛtina, badly intelligent, for doing wrong things. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.
And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself. So where is the difficulty to understand God? The symptoms are there in the śāstras. And those symptoms are visible in Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone can understand, "God is all powerful." So Kṛṣṇa showed that He is all powerful. So there is no difficulty to understand. So our method is easy. Instead of intellectual gymnastic, we take it very easily. And that acts. Now, so far our Society is concerned, we accept Kṛṣṇa as God. We're preaching Kṛṣṇa as God. So we have no difficulty. It is acting practically. So we... I may be Indian, Hindu, I may accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Maybe superstition, you may say. But why these European, Americans, Africans, they are accepting? And within very short time. Even Christian priests, they are astonished that "These boys, our boys, they did not care for God, never came to church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God?" They have not become mad. They are quite sane, educated. But why they are accepting Kṛṣṇa as God? Ask any one of them, they'll give explanation. And how it has become possible? Because they have accepted the method. So our guru's business is to teach him the method. Then he will understand everything. So far vegetable-eating is concerned, it is actually very scientific to eat vegetables. I think some German doctor proved it, that our teeth are meant for eating vegetables. So as devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we are not after accepting a vegetarian and rejecting a nonvegetarian.
Umāpati: They fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the west.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean, the politicians they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, "In god we trust"?
Prajāpati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe—"It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on"—they could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). What is that āsura-bhāva? Not to accept God. This is āsura-bhāva. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons. Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority?
Prajāpati: Today the only time they use the word God is when they are swearing and they are calling on God to damn someone else. Why is such language there? Why are they doing like that?
Prabhupāda: No. Why ordinary men? Even those who are going to church, they are also praying God, "God, give us our daily bread." These rascals, they have made God as agent for their sense gratification. This is their philosophy. Even from the priest down to the rogues, they have made God as the agent of their sense gratification. That is materialism." God must supply whatever I want. That is God. Otherwise I don't care for God." This is their philosophy.
Karandhara: Trivikrama Svāmī went to their monastery in Laguna Beach. So they were serving meat. Trivikrama said, "Why do you eat meat?" And they said, "That doesn't matter. What does it matter what you eat ?"
Prabhupāda: Why don't you eat stool? This question was raised by Mālatī. One man said like that. She said, "Why don't you eat stool? Why you discriminate?" (break) Ramakrishna Mission has done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture. (break) ...said, "Why you are afraid of God?" He said like that. "Why you are afraid of God?" One Christian padre, priest, he said, "You are coming from India? How you are speaking like this?" He was astonished. But this rascal spoke like that. "Why do you believe that you are sinners? There is no sin." (break)
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bali Mardana: Lord Jesus came to save the fallen souls...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: ...they are all running away.
Prabhupāda: They are so good Christian that at the time of danger, they're all going away to Canada. Just see-afraid of death, even though they are preaching themselves, priest, they are also the same common man, afraid of death. And if we people keep to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are not afraid of death. For going from one place to another, that's all. Going home, nobody becomes afraid going back to home. He becomes pleased. (break) You avoid death, there is no death. Viṣaya.(?) If we simply practice this, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... No more death. Finished death. This is a fact. (break) ...or do something for Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste time, single moment. Then your... No more death. Because this is deathless condition. And the changing of the body, that is momentary, that is all.
Bali Mardana: When I was in Hawaii I gave a lecture at one Catholic college, and the priest in charge, he was asking me if in our philosophy we believe that animals have a soul. He's so foolish...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali Mardana: The Christians are so foolish, even though they have big learned positions, they do not understand that the animal also has a soul.
Prabhupāda: You told? In that meeting?
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: What did they say?
Bali Mardana: They could not deny. They could not say anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what is the difference that you say the animals...? How do you say? What is the symptoms of possessing soul? The symptoms of possessing soul is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. The consciousness. The animals have no consciousness? How foolish they are!
Devotee: Actually, they have no philosophical basis for that belief that the animal has no soul. It's just speculation. Yes.
Prabhupāda: No philosophy. Simply rascaldom. Simply rascaldom. And that is being preached by the priestly class. Priestly class. Just see the society! What third-class society! (pause) (break) ...the soul enters after the birth of the child. Eh? Is it not? Therefore killing or abortion is not bad.
Sudāmā: But the rascals, they say that "This is his līlā."
Prabhupāda: Līlā? Then I kick on your face. that is also my līlā. (laughter)
Bali Mardana: What's that.
Prabhupāda: I kick on your face. (More laughter) That will be my līlā. Where is this rascal now, at the present moment?
Bali Mardana: Perhaps in Colorado. He has a big...
Sudāmā: Yes, in America, mainland.
Bali Mardana: He has a big following among the hippies of Colorado.
Prabhupāda: Somebody said that I am talked in their camp that I am priest. I am priest.
Bali Mardana: In their camp?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: Someone said that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They said that my movement is, I am priest. Because I worship Kṛṣṇa in the temple. In other words, I am not a philosopher; I am a priest. What it is made of, this surfer?
Sudāmā: It's made of styrofoam. It's a plastic material that's very light and floats on the water. And then different polishing plastics.
Prabhupāda: So, it is a costly thing.
Guest (1): And some devotee introduced me with him, that "He is the first devotee of Prabhupāda in America, in foreign."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's also a priest's son, coming from very respectable, priestly order family.
Italian Man (1): Well, yes. When I was a child I was brought up to go to the mass every morning, and I used to answer in Latin, you know, and serve the priest.
Prabhupāda: Oh!
Italian Man (1): Yes. Even twice a day until the age of fourteen, and then we went to catechism. And then I left, I left alone, you know, by my own will. (break) It would be fantastic to go back with a background of, with the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and talk to them about Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) ...this boy, he is going to develop our Italian center, Rome. (break)
Prabhupāda: All the leaders.
- piśācī paile yena mati-cchana haya
- māyār grasta jīvera se dāsa upajaya
(break) ...must have undergone severe austerities and penances and developed his spiritual consciousness. Then he can be priest. Not any man with a sacred thread and ganta, belling, becomes a priest. (break) ...priestly class, all rotten class. In Christian world also—drunkards, nonsense, woman-hunters, and they are priests. So also in India. Any man with a two paisa worth sacred thread, he becomes a brāhmaṇa and priest. How the people will be guided? The priest... The exact Sanskrit name is purohita, who can actually...
Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will (indistinct) those others don't speak English anymore.
Prabhupāda: No, local language is required.
Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language.
Prabhupāda: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also, you should learn, but... We can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there.
Satsvarūpa: The main thing they usually say is that kill means murder. That man at Bhaktivedanta Manor, that priest, he said the original Hebrew, the word means "murder." So this is an instruction to mankind not to murder, but it is not... But they have other places in the scripture where they point out that the animal is allowed for man to eat. So they just were showing us their scriptures.
Prabhupāda: It is said, "It is murder."
Satsvarūpa: Yes, that "Thou shalt not murder." That it has been changed to "kill."
Prabhupāda: Originally it was murder?
Satsvarūpa: That is what that priest said to you in Bhaktivedanta Manor.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, he may say. What was previously, we are not concerned. But you have left already this Jewish Old Testament. You have got New Testament. You are not Jewish. So why do you bring that Jewish for your defense? You have already rejected it.
Prabhupāda: ...arrange meetings in the school, colleges, societies, big, big halls. Because they may not come. They are not attracted to the temple meetings. They think, "This temple is temple, some priestly class." They want philosophy, logic, science. So they have to be convinced. Not sentiments. So those who are advanced, they are not in favor of religious sentiments, because they have got experience, "Now, some sentiments..." But they do not understand what is this sentiment. Therefore they have to be understood through logic, philosophy, science. (break)
O'Grady: But then, you see my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a simple man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says, "Well, they tell me, the priests they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God."
Prabhupāda: No.
O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says, "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between God and me.
O'Grady: I'm saying... Yes, a spiritual master the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God, that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever you do... music also, you can compose...
O'Grady: That's it... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
O'Grady: O.K., I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation.
Prabhupāda: Not same thing. When you describe... Music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection.
O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understood. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. They publish a monthly magazine. I have seen in that magazine. They are condemning that the priests have allowed marriage, man to man. And...
Richard Webster: In New York maybe. Not in Rome.
Prabhupāda: Christianity does not mean in New York it should be different and Rome it should be different. Then nobody is following.
Prabhupāda: At least the church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules.
Richard Webster: Yes. But I mean the difference seems to be with the Christian...
Prabhupāda: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but the head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men's human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads.
So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the western countries. Recently we have received report. Some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introducing in their class. Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography, of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold four millions pieces of literature in the western countries. So we are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this verse. Find out.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling... I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose also—I try to do this—people who are unbelievers, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith, and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God... We are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments, where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know... Priests, Catholic priests, well, go to an area because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or Copenhagen where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not...
Prabhupāda: For all.
Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present.
Prabhupāda: No, we go everywhere.
C. Hennis: ...a valid... That's a valid point, because it has always been found in every society that there is a need for a priestly class or a class of philosophical leaders of one kind or another. And the fact of this is recognized in the whole of the world society. I think not only in the West, but in the East, too, there's a need for the religious...
Prabhupāda: Now the so-called, the priestly society, priestly society, they are amending the Biblical injunction according to their whims. Just like in the Bible, the injunction is, "Thou shalt not kill." But the priestly class and all classes, they are simply killing. So how they can guide? They are keeping regular slaughterhouse for killing. So how they can guide? I have asked so many Christian gentlemen, including priests that "Your injunction is that 'Thou shalt not kill.' That is Lord Jesus Christ's order. Why you are violating this?" They give me vague answers. Directly it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." And the whole world is simply killing poor animals, and keeping up-to-date slaughterhouse.
Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid.
Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. "Why Christians are killing?" Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That's all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian? Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show-bottles, that's all. There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically... Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming. Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in... I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that?
Yogeśvara: Juice.
Prabhupāda: I have got it. You can distribute it.
Bhagavān: (about passerby) He's got one arm, and he's running to keep healthy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) In the morning they begin fishing, this walking, and golfing, no engagement. These poor fellows, they have been not informed that there is better engagement. They do not know. This is their civilization. And here, Kṛṣṇa conscious young men, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. They appreciate the Kṛṣṇa conscious boys. "Bright faces," they say. The priests and the common gentlemen, they say, and they inquire, "Are you American?" They see it. Come and see in our Los Angeles temple, in every temple, how these younger boys and girls are sitting so peacefully, look so nice. Is it not? A year ago, all hellish. Hellish. The same boys, the same girls. That's a fact. Just the counterpart of our society is the hippies-frustrated, all disappointed, mad. They should come forward now to cooperate with this movement. The other day one somebody came to solve the problems of the hippies.
Prabhupāda: She was arranging so many meetings. She was very intelligent girl. So churches, many churches, she... Some of the churches purchased my books.
Yogeśvara: Recently, one of our saṅkīrtana parties went to Butler, Pennsylvania, and one of the devotees met a priest on the street. He said: "Oh, yes, I remember your spiritual master. He was here."
Prabhupāda: So I was giving lectures. They have churches. That means God conscious persons there. I never criticized church, mosque, never. Because whatever it may be, at least there is God consciousness. So they're good. In details... But when they disobey... I criticize only these rascals, disobey the commandments. Otherwise, we have no... We don't criticize.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it required for them to have a spiritual master to guide them?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. These rascals, the priest, they do not guide them. They are also fallen. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice. If they follow. So many times they asked me. "Yes, if you follow your Christian religion, you'll be perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu proved devotional service from Koran. Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The Khān Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it requires the devotee who can explain from any godly literature about God. How rascal they are! "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore we shall maintain big, big slaughterhouse." Just see the argument. Then, in the Bengali, mosa makta kanan (?). There was a mosquito, and one is asking, "Bring a cannon." "Bring a cannon." Mosa makta kanan. Jesus Christ ate somewhere. There was no food available to eat, might have. Accepting he ate, but that, does it mean that you have to maintain slaughterhouse? Just see. And besides that, he might have done anything. He's powerful. He can eat. Therefore the other day I said, "He can eat the whole world." But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. That is Christianity.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Many of the young people now, they look to the Bible for instruction, but they don't like to go to church at all. They feel that the church is hypocritical.
Prabhupāda: Hypocritical, simply hypocritical. All these priests and cardinals and popes, they're all hypocritical. Getting high, highly salaried, high salaries, and drinking wine. And in America there is a hospital, five thousand drunkard priests are admitted there to cure their drinking habit. That was published in a paper. And they're sanctioning man to man marriage. That was published in that, what is that? Watch?
Satsvarūpa: Watchtower?
Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They did a survey among the Catholic priests...
Prabhupāda: What is this? They do not fight. Why there is soldier? (laughter) What nonsense. Why there are soldiers? The neutral? 1939. This is Second World War. And First World War, 19...
Yogeśvara: (reading) "Dedicated to the soldiers of Geneva who died in the service of their country."
Prabhupāda: So that means it was attacked?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Probably defending banks or things like that. Civil.
Prabhupāda: Two wars, 1914 to 1918.
Guru-gaurāṅga: We read in the papers, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they did a survey among the Capucine priests and fifty percent felt that their spiritual life was hampered by the fact that they could not have intimate relations with women. And forty percent felt that they were not allowed enough freedom and that obedience was not good.
Prabhupāda: Not allowed in...?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Enough freedom.
Prabhupāda: What is that freedom?
Yogeśvara: Illicit principles. Sinful principles.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jyotirmayī: Mr. (indistinct) has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad-gītā, and now you see he is wearing a dhotī, he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā. But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā... He understands English?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead.
(Jyotirmayī translates into French)
Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are.
Jyotirmayī: Yeah, Mr. (indistinct) is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India, a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was...
Prabhupāda: In India, where did you stay?
Priest: In Poona.
Prabhupāda: Poona, oh. How long you were there?
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience?
Priest: That God is beyond all our experience.
Prabhupāda: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience.
Priest: Personally, of course, but...
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience.
Priest: But if you know what you can't explain...
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know.
Priest: You don't think an illusion (indistinct) relationship.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing, that is knowledge.
Priest: Yeah, but that knowledge is very (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach because you do not know, it is not within your experience.
Priest: That's why I don't preach.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, then... (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot explain. That is all right.
Priest: That means I have the experience...
Prabhupāda: But...
Priest: ...that my experience is limited...
Prabhupāda: But that's all right.
Priest: ...and God is unlimited.
Prabhupāda: That is all right. That I admit.
Priest: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like you know...
Priest: And nobody can.
Prabhupāda: ...you do not know me, you have no experience about me.
Priest: No.
Prabhupāda: But if I say, "I am like this," you will get experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupāda: Why no?
Priest: If I live with you for some time...
Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swamiji might have one thousand dollars," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say, "No, I have got one million dollars," then you get the experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupāda: Why no?
Priest: I will get the experience of you when we are living together.
Prabhupāda: That means you cannot talk with God.
Priest: Of course not.
Prabhupāda: But if anyone can talk?
Priest: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way?
Prabhupāda: Then why Christian go there?
Priest: They should not.
Prabhupāda: Then we should not.
Priest: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and (indistinct)? Anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say.
Priest: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe?
Priest: True.
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that "Why you have come here?" You cannot say.
Jyotirmayī: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians?
Prabhupāda: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupāda: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It's not wrong. It's funny.
Prabhupāda: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your...
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and...
Prabhupāda: But we are not concerned with the dress, we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding, that's all.
Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly or else they will be fired and get no salary.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their...
Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise... It is straight commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." And because people are killing, they're... Now they are give man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception... At least, outside America, nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that?
Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there.
Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you... Mām... This meaning, the flesh, is Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating. So this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. "He'll be given the opportunity to kill you." And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that "You are giving your life before goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra. While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra. The priest will say in the ear that "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra.
Pṛthu Putra: He says all the Christians and all the priests, that they tell to him from, that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says...
Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. (French)
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it.
Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they, it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify.
Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem.
Prabhupāda: Now, now, what is his problem. That he did never disclose.
Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God.
Prabhupāda: Because the church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there?
Devotee: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not... They were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out.
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, back side, the daśāvatāra. (indistinct)
Pṛthu Putra: (Explains in French the picture in Second Canto)
Prabhupāda: He was Hindu in the beginning. Come on. He was Prince, then He become renounced and He was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started His system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers: no meat-eating, so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brāhmaṇas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad gītā it is stated: yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas.
Jyotirmayī (translator): So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is... He's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransad. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India?
Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry.
Prabhupāda: Pondicherry?
Madame Siaude: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place.
Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time.
Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with M. Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya...
Prabhupāda: Hm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy.
Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also M. Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together.
Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is...
Prabhupāda: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America.
Haṁsadūta: What was the name of it?
Prabhupāda: MRA, MRA, Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you?
Haṁsadūta: No. Do you, Satsvarūpa? No.
Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that "You do whatever you... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. (break) ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?
Satsvarūpa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in Gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction.
Prabhupāda: We shall go straight or right?
Professor Durckheim: As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the High Priest. Now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu (?) after the other one. Only one resisted in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said, "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword (?) master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said, "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said, "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self-realized man said, "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that, so if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful.
Professor Durckheim: May I come back once to my question, master, the relationship between belief and experience, because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks.
Prabhupāda: No, believe the authority. That is the... That is better than experience.
Professor Durckheim: Yes. That is what in our country is... I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief...
Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief which is not faith has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts, and they don't believe what you tell them. They just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a..., big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so?
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that, first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas, that is perfect. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge... Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. So that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person.
Prof. Pater Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired "Swamiji, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Without drugs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest he showed one pamphlet that these boys, they're our boys but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it? He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church—but it was not going on. It was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of... the same men, the same place. The crowd is so... Why? I have not brought all these men from India. Judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations, they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these... They have given up everything.
Haṁsadūta: In greenhouses. They play music. Then they become more healthy.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. (break) ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby?
Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Attorney, in the... Attorney-General of the Federal Government. You saw that?
Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper.
Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much.
Devotee: I think so, yes.
Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly...
Satsvarūpa: At seven-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high-ranking in the church.
Prabhupāda: What is the time now?
Satsvarūpa: Ten after six, quarter after six. (end)
Bali Mardana: Yes. Just like in the San Francisco paper they admitted, "This is the most popular festival."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. San Francisco also. Fifteen thousand people attended my lecture silently. So they are seeing now there is something in this movement, and if this movement, it is allowed to go on without any objection, then Christianity will be finished. That is the conspiracy behind it. That lecture is recorded? The, which I gave in the, that society of the priests and...
Satsvarūpa: The fathers?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: Yes, I...
Prabhupāda: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurāri, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): That even though it's outside, it shows that there's something special inside.
Prabhupāda: No, this enquiry was made by one priest. I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. The priest was in his ordinary dress. He came. He said, "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "Yes." He first of all he said, "How your disciples look so nice and full of spiritual consciousness?" That was his first question. No, everything has got process. If we adopt the process, the result is there.
Prabhupāda: "Poor Christ, he has to suffer for all the sinful activities, and he wanted to save us from sin, gave his injunction. That we shall not care." This is Christian religion. And therefore they have to close down this hypocrisy. (break) That Melbourne meeting, some of you were with me? No. In Melbourne I was invited by some, many priests. Twice I was invited. The first meeting I am speaking. So there was a good meeting, all respectable priests. So they asked me that "Why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" So I asked them that "What you have not done?" (laughter) So they were not very much pleased. But I, in the open meeting, I said, "What you have not done? You have done all sinful activities. Therefore you have to close down this hypocrisy now." That was my answer, "What you have not done?" Now they are sorry, "What we have done?" That is called ignorance. They have done everything all sinful. They do not know that is sinful. (break) ...Bible, "Thou shall not kill," and they will not obey. That is sinful. Everything is there clearly, Ten Commandments, but they will not do that. Willful sinners. One may act sinfully, unaware. But they are willfully sinners. They know this is sin, and still they are doing.
Acyutānanda: The people say that just like Rāmakrishna, the disciples presented Him as God, but He never said He was God.
Prabhupāda: But then where is the śāstra? Three things: the devotee or saintly person, śāstra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the śāstra. (laughs) So he's a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of śāstra. Besides that, in the śāstra it is said that "Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost." So he was worshiping Kālī. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow śāstra, they will reject immediately.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Britishers made so many attempts that "Indians were uncivilized, and we have come here to make them civilized."
Rāmeśvara: So for colonialism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to... Because there are other powers, so they are envious that "Why these rascals, they occupy India?" So, so just to support this occupation, I mean to say, yes, occupation, and..., they made so many propaganda. Even during Gandhi's movement, they engaged one American woman to write a book "Mother India." "Mother India." "Mother India." So the... In... That "Mother India" is simply full of stories where there are so defects. Suppose a priest in the temple is attached with some woman, like that, so many stories like... So one Punjabi, what is his name? Gobha, (?) Gobha. He counteracted that book—"Uncle Sam." (laughter) So these things are going on.
Jayapatāka: During the last war, the Christian Mission of Krishnanagar, they had many Italian priests also, but the government gave them permission to stay, although India was at war with Italians.
Prabhupāda: In the missionary consideration, they can do that.
Jayādvaita: What will be the position with the Chinese if the Russians and Americans fight?
Prabhupāda: Well I am not a politician. (laughter) China does not war, not want war. They want to...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Develop.
Prabhupāda: Construct.
Rūpānuga: They're not ready.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not very much interested in war.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that this war will destroy the demonic civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Does that mean that it'll destroy all the cities and all the industries?
Prabhupāda: War means destruction of all cities. That is natural. You have got experience in Europe so many times.
Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, where is the argument against it? You are saying that, they may not think of Kṛṣṇa, they may not say about Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. This is argument, this is not philosophy. Philosophy is there, direct, you should do like this, that's all. You do it and get the results. You go to purchase something, the price is fixed, you pay the price and take it. Where is argument? If you are, if you serious about that thing, you may pay price and take it away. That is the advice of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā-mati kriyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. If you can purchase somewhere the thinking of Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā mati. That is, we have translated into "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." If you can purchase this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, somewhere, immediately purchase it. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvita-mati, kriyatām, just purchase, yadi kuto 'pi labhyate, if it is available somewhere. And if I have to purchase, then what price? Tatra laulyam ekaṁ mūlam. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ labhyate. If you want what is the price, he says the price is your eagerness. And that eagerness to obtain it, takes many millions of births. Why you want Kṛṣṇa? Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Kṛṣṇa, he will become mad after Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign. These boys are certified in their own country by the Christian priests that "These boys are our boys, they will never come into church, they are never interested about God, and now they are mad after God. What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Kṛṣṇa. To mad after Him. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Where You are? Where You are? Śrī-govardhana pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamunā? Where you are? Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply wondering where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato pure khedair mahā-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Kṛṣṇa, you can understand Kṛṣṇa. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Kṛṣṇa, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa is black, somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa as something else. Who says Kṛṣṇa is black? Who told me?
Mahāṁsa: Cinmayananda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means "black."
Prabhupāda: Now Kṛṣṇa has written Bhagavad-gītā, not written, has spoken Bhagavad-gītā, and He is speaking to me and I have to judge which is suitable? This is, is that my position?
Guest: Perhaps what happens here...
Prabhupāda: No perhaps. He says that "What is suitable, we accept. And not suitable reject." Now who will judge which is suitable and which is not suitable? That is the question.
Guest: Here (indistinct) comes just for one day or ten days that...
Prabhupāda: May no, what is your answer to this?
Guest: That is what I was answering.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: What he does, each day he takes one śloka, and he just goes on giving discourse for an hour or what... (indistinct) ...he just has his discussion, "Now this śloka, we will take and we will discuss."
Prabhupāda: No, I have read some of his...
Guest: ...because his Gītā is there, all ślokas (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He has said somewhere, I don't particularly know, "The Indian priests(?) think like that."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In his Gītā, in the verse that describes how to meditate on the formless, he states that although it says in the Bhagavad-gītā that it is very difficult to understand the formless aspect, he says this was true five thousand years ago but now it is no longer true.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? (break) You can give me the general prasāda today. I will taste. (test?) (break) When one becomes rich, he becomes lazy. What is called? "Leads to poverty"? Luxury. "Luxury leads to poverty." So at one time one become very rich by hard work, and next generation gets the money for nothing, he spends it on luxuries, and the third generation, poor. There are many families, in everywhere. In England, all these English men, in the beginning they worked very hard, expanding their empire and working. Then gradually, when they became Lord family, then luxury. Now they are poverty-stricken.
Amogha: Jesus also gave fish to the people in one part of the Bible.
Prabhupāda: When there is no other food, you have to take anything. That is another thing. But when there are other foods, grains and vegetables, why should you eat anything? You have to eat and live. So if you can eat and live innocently, why should you kill? Then, Christ says "Thou shall not kill." Was he a fool, rascal, that he advised "Thou shall not kill"? He had no idea?
Śrutakīrti: But he meant kill other people.
Prabhupāda: No. That is your interpretation, rascal's interpretation.
Amogha: All the priests say that.
Prabhupāda: He says clearly, "Thou shall not kill." And when I cut grass, it is not called killing. You should know dictionary. Because you are uneducated, you do not know the meaning of the dictionary.
Amogha: He's asking you when did this civilization actually accept the teachings of Christ?
Carol: When have they? Not overall at all, only in small pockets. Never overall.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are claiming that you are Christian? Just like you are having cross. That is the sign that you killed Christ. The cross is the killing symbol of Christ.
Carol: This is the resurrection symbol.
Prabhupāda: Maybe. (laughter)
Carol: But it's not only Christian symbol...
Prabhupāda: But many, many priestly order, they carry the cross. Cross is the sign when Lord Jesus Christ was killed. Is it not?
Carol: It is, but that symbol is used in a lot of ways.
Prabhupāda: That means how you killed Lord Jesus Christ. That is the sign. That reminds you that you killed. You accuse the Jewish people "They killed," but you are also killing. Although you are claiming Christian. Therefore I want to know—you are a learned scholar—when you abided by the order of Lord Jesus Christ? That is my question. When?
Prabhupāda: They are all loafer class. They have no information of the soul. They are studying in the dead matter, that's all. Freud and others, Darwin. What do they know?
Amogha: There are also so many priests and rabbis, the Pope.
Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be—brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.
Jayadharma: They say in India that the caste system apparently is not working.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Amogha: Shall I answer?
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...
Prabhupāda: Vested interest.
Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...
Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?
Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.
Jayadharma: That is my foolishness.
Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business—artisans—that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating—both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man. And go-rakṣya. Another business is to protect the cows, and to give them food nicely so the cows will give enough milk. And from milk, you know, so many nice preparations, all full of vitamins. So why they should be killed? You are killing; the blood is not utilized, you are taking the flesh. But flesh is transformation of the blood. And milk is also transformation of the blood. So if you take, just like channa, it is as good as flesh. By taste, by benefit—as good as. So why if you can take the flesh and blood in a human way-blood is transformed into milk, and from milk there are so many good preparations-ghee, yoghurt, burfi, channa, so many preparations are available. This panir, channa, and let the animal live peacefully. Why are you cutting his throat? You require some benefit from the animal. Take this benefit. Why should you kill? If he can live and give better service, then why shall I try to kill? What is this human civilization? Is that human civilization, that I am taking service from you, and I am cutting your throat? Is that humanity? What is the answer?
Amogha: He says that in the Īśopaniṣad it says that you should learn the process of self-realization side by side with the process of nescience.
Prabhupāda: Nescience, yes. That is pravṛtti and nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means sense enjoyment. And nivṛtti means self-negation. So when we say that "You shall not have illicit sex," and their inclination is illicit sex, so therefore it is revolutionary. They are materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment to the best capacity-homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance, all sexually inclined, pravṛtti. And we say, "Stop this," nivṛtti. They do not like it because āsura. Pravṛtti jagat. They do not know this is essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means brahmacarya. The so-called swamis, they are coming for this so-called yoga practice and..., but they are themself victim of sex. This is going on. Actually, it is a bluff—they have become swami and teaching some yoga system—because they do not know that one has to stop this first of all. Brahmacaryena. So this bluffing is going on all over the world, and we are speaking just against them. Murkhayopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. If you give instruction to the rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all in the pravṛtti-mārga. Therefore they are bringing somebody, "Our interpretation is like this." Pravṛtti-mārga. Because if they can find out some support from the śāstra, then they think, "We are secure." This is going on. Pravṛttim ca nivṛttim janā na vidur āsurāḥ. The whole world is full of asuras, descendant of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually they will understand. (pause) Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are also in the pravṛtti-mārga. All these, priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravṛtti-mārga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see. Simply by dressing long, what is called, overcoat?
Paramahaṁsa: They also have that "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are very expert in doing that. That is advanced civilization. Now they are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now of this priestly class?
Paramahaṁsa: They have another thing now where they, a man goes to the doctor and has an operation to change his sex from man to woman.
Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Or from woman to man. That's called transvestites.
Prabhupāda: That is going on?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Successful?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, sometimes. Sometimes they have some difficulties, but they have had many successful operations. (break) She can't have... It can't have a baby. (laughs)
Jesuit: Does that name, that the things such as, you mentioned smoking and alcohol and sex and meat, that all those things are material and therefore bad?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit: Take sex, how can that be considered...?
Prabhupāda: Or Christian religion also there is celibacy, life, you also trained up, the nuns, the priests, they are not meant for marrying.
Jesuit: That's true. We don't say that sex is bad.
Prabhupāda: Why they are forbidden to marry?
Jesuit: Well, it's a question of something I freely accept, freely accept not to marry.
Prabhupāda: No. No, this is spiritual life. Sex life is not spiritual life.
Jesuit: And it's good that, I think, we are coming more to understand that. And I think you see a lot of young people who really are longing for some form of contemplation and prayer. That is why you get followers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, these boys they are coming from your Christian group, Jewish group, but they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement, they didn't care to come to the church. And now they are mad after God. How is it? The same boys." So indirectly he accepted this process as easier to understand God. And actually it is easier. What do they do? They don't go to the forest, or meditate, or make any very austere, what is called, penances. They simply chant in the morning and dance in ecstasy and then eat sumptuously. That's all. And now they have given up everything. Now, you bribe them, "You eat meat." They will never eat. They will not drink tea even. The method is... The American government they spent lots of money for stopping this addiction to drugs. And these boys, as soon as they come to me, they give up. Ask them what money I have bribed them. You can ask how they have left it.
How they have left it? How they have given meat-eating, how they have given drinking even tea, cigarette, everything? What I have given them? I am poor Indian. I have no money. (laughter) But how they have accepted?
Jesuit: It satisfies the longing in the heart one has for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can ask them. They will inform, that nobody of them, either Hindu or Christian, Indian... They are coming all from Christian group or Jewish group. So they are all educated boys. So there is no question of bluffing them. Young boys, they can earn money like anything, especially in America. But they have given everything. They are very respectable father's son. But they have given up...
Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? Ladies and gents. Why not equal right?
Śrutakīrti: In some of our modern universities they are doing that.
Prabhupāda: Advancing.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right in the lavatory. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. (break) (Conversation continues in the car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat-sevāṁ dvār... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that's all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the śāstra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yoṣit saṅg... Yoṣit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvāram. This is the path of darkness.
Just like the priest was saying, "Oh, sex is very nice. Why you stop?" Just see. And he is a priest. Why the Roman Catholics they are ordered not to marry? Why? Roman Catholic are supposed... the fathers and priests, they should remain unmarried, is it not?
Madhudviṣa: Yes. They remain celibate. He was saying that it is a personal preference.
Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this (Indistinct. Talks with other devotees about something)
Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?
Director: But homosexual is a sickness.
Devotee: He said it's an illness.
Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.
Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.
Director: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein?
Prabhupāda: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather people say bright faces. In Boston one priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swamiji, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as bright faces. In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?"
Guest 1: They, we found out or the suggestion was... Because there were little power groups in that church that possibly the senior people don't know about, but they objected for some reason, which is very hard to understand.
Prabhupāda: In London we wanted to purchase one church that was not working. In London. But when we approached that priest, the in-charge, not directly to me but one of my disciples, he informed him that "I shall better set fire in this church. Still, I shall not give to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Australian devotee 4: Like this priest said the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the human being has a spirit soul, but the animal just has a soul. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) The same thing. "Everyone is sinful, but we are pure sinful." (laughter) Pure sinful.
Hari-śauri: Actually most sinful activity appears to be promoted by the government for economic development. They have big state lotteries. They are planning to spend six million dollars developing a greyhound racing park here in Australia.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is nice place to walk. Why on the ups and downs?
Śrutakīrti: We have a bad tour guide.
Hari-śauri: You were speaking before about controlling the tongue is very important. And in your lectures you have said simply by eating prasādam this is controlling the tongue. But still, we have tendency when there is a big feast to eat very much prasādam. Is this a good thing, or...?
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) It is not very good, but it is still good. Instead of going to the restaurant and eat like the hogs and dogs, better take more prasādam. There is no harm. Kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy, koribāre jihwā jay. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. Just to conquer over our tongue He has given us nice variety of prasāda. Take it and control your tongue. Yes. Hmm. Don't come very near.
Devotee: Well, we want to tell the others so they can also be saved.
Prabhupāda: No, the Christian churches, all the priests, they eat meat. They're supporting everything, homosex, everything, man to man marriage.
Bali-mardana: Now they are making women the priests.
Prabhupāda: Women priest. Women priest, there was none before?
Bali-mardana: No.
Gurukṛpa: Still not very much.
Bali-mardana: The Protestants.
Gurukṛpa: That is a nice pandal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall go farther or return? (break)
Yogi Bhajan: That is agreed. That's typical, difficulty is agreed. I go to India; I find the difficulty. I am here; I find the difficulty. But there are genuine people in the spiritual work...
Prabhupāda: But one thing is, just like you said some Christian priests?
Yogi Bhajan: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That "I realize that one, God is one." So if God is one and every one of us after God, then why there is disagreement?
Dr. Gerson: In this country psychology and psychiatry has become almost like a priesthood, and people look to them for answers. And if one of the people that they take in that way, me, can give them another answer, then perhaps they'll start to turn in another direction, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Because the psychologists, they are like the gurus nowadays. Rather than reading philosophy books or religion books, everyone is reading psychology books like this I'm OK, You're OK. It was a big best seller. So now Dr. Gerson, he wants to inject in this psychology field... Anyone who is thinking, "Who am I?" He is reading psychology books. This is supposed to be the science of self-realization today. So they're actually more influential than philosophers.
Prabhupāda: Have they advanced about "Who am I?"
Dr. Gerson: So I would like to inject into this system Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service.
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupāda: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So as we associate, we develop a type of body. So these crimes means they do not get good association. Naturally they are developing. And now these boys, they are also Americans and Europeans. They are getting good association, and they are becoming free from all bad habits. We generally take bad character on the basis of illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling.
Mayor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So they were habituated to all... Because that is a system in the European, American life. But now they are free. That is Professor Judah's remark in his letter. Have you got that? Yes. He has written one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture, about our movement. He has read all our books. Here are, you have shown all these books? So he appreciates, many gentlemen appreciate, even the priestly class, they also appreciate. So this is a movement which is trying to create at least a section to become first-class. The first-class man does not mean that he is nicely dressed or very rich or very opulent. Generally, of course, a first-class man means good parentage, good education, good looking and nicely rich. That is the standard. But... That may be first-class position, but first-class man is different. First-class man means he is self-controlled, in the mind he is undisturbed, he is truthful, he is very clean, inside and outside, he is very simple, tolerant, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge, and believe in God. This is first-class man. There is no mention that he is rich, he is beautiful, bodily, or he is educated. Educated, this is a result of education. Real education means that he is self controlled. Controlling the mind, controlling the senses, truthful. He will speak truth in any circumstances. Even to his enemy he will speak the truth. And clean, and very simple, tolerant. And any knowledge, he has got some, I mean to say, strength over it. Ultimate knowledge, Brahmān, he believes in that and he has... Brahma janātītī brāhmaṇaḥ, This is first-class man. So it is not expected that everyone will become first-class. but there must be a section in the society, ideal first-class. And they will be advisor to the rest. These brāhmaṇas, they will not take part in politics, but those who are politicians, administrators, they should take advice from these first-class men, how to rule, how to control, what is the ideal. So the ruling class, they are called kṣatriyas. So find out this verse, śamaḥ damaḥ...
Lt. Mozee: Sir, isn't the difficulty, rather, that the group of, I want to call them, hard-core group, the priests, the devotees, the followers, the little circle of people, have always been the ones that have followed the practices, but the fringe... Assume for example that Hare Kṛṣṇa grew to gigantic proportions as Christianity has grown. Would not it be the problem that the fringe areas, the ones who were not, who professed to be the followers... Would not they be the difficulty as the Christian is today? You have said that you...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that possibility is always there. But my proposal is that if you are not true Christian, then your preaching will not be effective. I don't say that now we are strictly following and we will not fall down in future. I don't say that. That fall down propensity, tendency is always there. But my proposal is that unless one is strictly follower of the principles, his preaching will not be effective. That is my charge.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "Blind man is leading other blind men."
Brahmānanda: The priests. They're in the theological seminary, and they are priests, and they are saying that "It is pleasurable, so why not do it?"
Prabhupāda: And what is the pleasure? Stool-passing and urine-passing points are joined together, and it is pleasure. Just see their standard of pleasure. Just like the pigs. With pleasure, they eat stool. So they think it is pleasure. Standard of pleasure has gone down so low. This is Kali-yuga. (break) ...advanced. He has disciple, guru, but he knows that he is suffering whole life for this institution. Still he'll not give it up.
Brahmānanda: The Christians, they have a concept of sin. So when Vivekānanda went to America he was telling them, "No, you forget this concept. Whatever you do, it's all right because you are God." They were surprised.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they liked him.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They did not like. The Christian priests did not like him. They condemned him, "Oh, you are come from India, and you are speaking nonsense, this?" In those hundred years the Christian priests were conscious: "But how is this? From India he has come and he's talking like nonsense?" They questioned in Chicago speech.
Prabhupāda: This is the greatest defect of modern civilization, that they won't accept real authority. They will create some authority. Or rascal, he becomes authority. Especially in India, this is the drawback. In the Western countries they do not know much about this. Therefore they accept what I say. But here they bring so many. So such an important man, he is bringing authority, Brahma-kumārī, a house of prostitution. If he is bringing their quotation as authority, then what to speak of others? (break) Just like that Christian convent house. They supply woman to rich men, and they supply money. That's all. This is Brahma-kumārī. Rich man, the same disease is there—yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. So if they get facility for some maithuna, they will give you money. (Hindi) ...prostitute, for convent house. Hm? Brahmānanda? Convent house? What is that convent house? It is not prostitution? That's all.
Brahmānanda: Usually it's between the priests and the nuns.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is actually spiritually situated, this material center of happiness, maithunādi, that will go anywhere. You give any color, spiritual or religious or political. You see? Why Gandhi's āśrama failed? Do you know that? This is... When Gandhi was in jail, when he came back he saw all pregnant. You did not know that?
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say the Indian, the leading Indians here, if they make a program, the common will follow. And everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how society should be conducted.
Guest (3): But I think, Swamiji, common men follow only swamis, not the leaders or the priests.
Prabhupāda: The idea is: the common men, they expect something, especially Indians, that India has got some spiritual culture. So every human being is seeking after spiritual culture, but unfortunately, at the present moment they are doing something which is not very desirable, the so-called swamis and yogis. I do not wish to describe them.
Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible."
Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear." Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good."
Prabhupāda: ...own Christian priests, they asked me that "Why Christianity is dwindling? What we have done?" So I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughter)
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "You have violated from the very beginning the orders of Christ, 'Thou shall not kill,' and you are killing, only killing. So what you have not done?"
Devotee 1: They say that man has to dominate over the animals. They should...
Prabhupāda: Therefore you should kill and eat them. Very good reasoning. "The father should dominate over children; therefore the children should be killed and eaten up." So rascals, and they are professing religious leaders.
Brahmānanda: At the present moment, I was reading, there is one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have an artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. All of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she is alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she will die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what... If they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some Catholic priest said that better to let her die, because this is God's way.
Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept the God's way and give up the machine.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in a situation like that, isn't it more valuable to preserve human life because there's the chance...
Prabhupāda: What is the use?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a chance that somehow or another, they might be...
Prabhupāda: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation. And why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die.
Prof. Olivier: You see, the...South Africa has had to import its priests, its Hindu priests.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the young girls who join our movement, they cover their heads. And the Hindu ladies are so impressed that they practice such chastity, even to the extent always covering their head as a sign of chastity. They very much appreciate.
Prof. Olivier: Perhaps I can give you one or a couple of application forms that you could post to one or two people if they’re interested to apply. But this would be...
Prabhupāda: The Hindu community, I think they will accept us. I don’t think they will deny.
Prof. Olivier: But this would be a wonderful opportunity to bring the essence of Hinduism because from what I gather here from what you have said, this is not only the essence of religion from here but it is also the essence of Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The essence of Hinduism is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only from your Godbrothers. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Devotee (5): They always say the Africans could never become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: How they are becoming?
Devotee (5): They don't believe.
Prabhupāda: Believe? You do not see even?
Devotee (5): But they say that "Oh, he will do it, and then, after one year, he will stop."
Prabhupāda: Well, that is another criticism. Somebody is eating nice yogurt. Everyone will say, "Oh, it is very nice. It is very nice, very nice." Another man says, "Yes, it is nice, but after three days it will be sour." (laughter) You rascal, you consider for the present. What "after three days"? Means he's a bad critic, so he could not find out any fault. Everyone says it is good. So "After three days it will be bad." This sort of criticism. So you have already become bad. You were doing service to others. What does he do, that priest?
Brahmānanda: He's a businessman.
Prabhupāda: Business. So is that...? The business is the occupation of brāhmaṇa? You are already fallen. How he can criticize others?
Indian woman: That is all, brāhmaṇas, all brāhmaṇas, there is no big knowledge. That is Śiva. Śiva is the head.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Śiva is the head, but whether you are brāhmaṇa? That is the question.
Brahmānanda: ...this book written by one priest during the war. The name of the book was Somebody Up There Likes Me, referring to God.
Prabhupāda: Still, he did not dare to utter the name of God.
Brahmānanda: No, he said "somebody."
Prabhupāda: "Somebody."
Brahmānanda: "Somebody Up There Likes Me."
Prabhupāda: As soon as he had written "God likes me," nobody would purchase the book. (laughter) Nobody would. He is clever—"Somebody."
Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa says because he is saṅkara, varṇa-saṅkara. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya.
Dr. Patel: Was he? No, no. Both were brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: He was born when his mother was widow, and she became pregnant by the priest. So she was going to kill herself. Then her father restrained her, that "Don't do it. Your... In the womb there is a big personality." So the brāhmaṇa community did not like her.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is called Śaṅkarācārya.
Indian man (2): Varṇa-saṅkara.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Śaṅkara is the name of Śaṅkara. I don't agree you have said correctly.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara... Śaṅkara is Bhagavān. But because he is Śaṅkara, therefore he is not accepted as Bhagavān. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Śaṅkara means mixed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained that kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi-vikāra. Kṣīram, milk, becomes dadhi-vikāra.
Dr. Patel: Dahi.
Prabhupāda: Dahi. So dahi is nothing but milk, but you cannot call it milk.
Dr. Patel: But he was a non-mudri-patha(?) brāhmaṇa and I think his father was not a priest but regular man.
Prabhupāda: Your daughter?
Indian man (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyāsī, and then he came back and had a gṛhastha-āśrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru...
Prabhupāda: That is the case with Vallabhācārya also. He became sannyāsa, then again back, guru.
Prabhupāda: You can change it. That Necolla(?) has conquered you.
Dr. Patel: That's right. They did conquer us. These priests even are not tending even the system of education.
Śravaṇānanda: At the Ramakrishna Mission school in Madras near a football field, there is one slogan on the arch that says, "The playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the Gītā."
Prabhupāda: Just see. Has Neccolla(?) carved this?
Śravaṇānanda: He said, "Tear up all the big tulasīs..."
Dr. Patel: Is it a fact? We don't know.
Prabhupāda: It is a fact if he says.
Śravaṇānanda: Yes. It is written right there, it's written right there. They say the playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the Gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Vivekananda taught this.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Acyutānanda: I heard how she became interested in the Gītā. She was Christian, and her infant died. So she asked priests, "Where will this soul go, to heaven or hell? And why? Because he hasn't done anything." So she was never satisfied with their answers. So then she heard that there is transmigration of the soul. Then she became interested in the Gītā, India.
Prabhupāda: So did she understand?
Acyutānanda: Well, only up to transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupāda: She admits.
Acyutānanda: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: It was open? If there are any doubt. (break)
Indian man (2): ...all practical things...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): ...political things. Two and two will always be four. But we people don't agree so far.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You want five.
Acyutānanda: Yes. In Europe, when Christianity first came to Constantine, the priests would stay in the top of a river, and they marched an army through the river, and the priest put the holy water, and when the army came on the other side they said, "Now you've all been baptized. You're all Christians." Mass conversion. (break) ...Hindu groups are mixing Hinduism and Indian nationality, it's fascism. That was also the government's...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh?
Acyutānanda: Fascism.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?
Acyutānanda: The Hindu groups. That was the point that enraged the government. The same paṇḍitas with the prāyaścitta, they don't like the Mohammedans, they don't like the Christians. They say, "You have created Pakistan, so all the Mohammedans should go there. This is Hindustan."
Prabhupāda: Murvi(?) meat here?
Indian man (1): Not everyone did.
Prabhupāda: Mostly.
Indian man (1): Mostly. Nowadays it is a fashion to eat when the brāhmaṇas take in a house.
Prabhupāda: Taking?
Indian man (1): Yes, they take it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The brāhmaṇas?
Indian man (1): Yes, most of them. (break)
Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion?
Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.
Prabhupāda: There is no.... So, go on reading.
Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them?
Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I thought only Indians attended.
Harikeśa: Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? The ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.
Yaśodānandana: One of the leading paṇḍitas of the Rāmānuja-sampradāya has endorsed us as being bona fide Vaiṣṇavas, and also one of the main Aṣṭamaṭhas (?) in Uḍupi, the place of Madhvācārya, has given a letter to define that "The disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, His Divine Grace, is doing very good work for the sanātana dharma, and they are bona fide Vaiṣṇavas. So these letters are very good for our preaching work.
Acyutānanda: Śrī Raṅgam.
Yaśodānandana: Also in Śrī Raṅgam, the leading paṇḍita, the leading priest of the Śrī Raṅgam temple, that big Viṣṇu temple... We had a program there, and he's very much impressed by your work.
Acyutānanda: He's the descendant of Veṅkata Bhaṭṭa.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Acyutānanda: And that is... His house is called Mahāprabhu Śālā. So Lord Caitanya stayed in this house.
Yaśodānandana: He also gave a very nice letter.
Prabhupāda: He's Gauḍīya-sampradāya.
Yaśodānandana: Rāmānuja.
Prabhupāda: No, this Veṅkata Bhaṭṭa, because Bhaṭṭa, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciple. Śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha, śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha. They were direct disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's Tripurāri giving a class. Here's a priest buying a Bhagavad-gītā. Gurudāsa Mahārāja preaching on campus. Dhṛṣṭadyumna leading a kīrtana. Here's a television show. That was that television show.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśodānandana: There is actual proof, Prabhupāda, that when these scientists and great, so-called poets, when they die, refusing to admit the authority of God, they die a very terrible death. Just like in France there used to be a great philosopher named Voltaire, and at the end of his life, because his whole writings and existence he tried to disprove the existence of God, he went insane, and he was eating his own stool and urine. And a priest came to him and said, "Why don't you accept the existence of God? You have become such great poet." He said, "I will never accept the existence of God." But he became to the point where he was eating his own stool and urine.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Yaśodānandana: This has been recorded...
Prabhupāda: This is the punishment, yes. Punishment there is always. But they are so stubborn fools still.
Prabhupāda: "Belonging to others."
Devotee (1): Yes, "of others." So who can see like loṣṭravat...
Prabhupāda: That is para-drav...
Devotee (1): ...rubbish, or like rubbish, cannot take, cannot pick up. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "Every living entity," ātmavat, "like he himself."
Prabhupāda: Yes, as we feel pains and pleasures...
Devotee (1): Sa yaḥ paśyati: "Who can see like that..."
Prabhupāda: ...they should know the others also will feel. If my throat is cut, I feel, and "Why shall I cut the throat of another, poor animal?" This is learned man. And this rascal, maintaining slaughterhouse, and learned man? And they cannot understand. And big, big priests, they'll defend: "Oh, this 'Thou shalt not kill' means it is meant for the men, not for the ani..." They'll put arguments. Christ says clearly, "Thou shall not kill" and they will defend.
Trivikrama: Even abortion they are defending.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Trivikrama: Even abortion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this is going on as education, as saintly person, priest. These things are going on in the name of religion, in the name of education. How much fallen this world is, just try to understand. As soon as they are caught up, they'll defend only by arguments, counter-arguments.
Prabhupāda: What is that message?
Guest (4): We believe that the message that God gave him was that the true church was not on the earth, and we believe that through Joseph Smith the true gospel of Jesus Christ was once again restored to the earth with all its power, with all its authority, and with the holy priesthood.
Prabhupāda: So Jesus Christ is authorized.
Guest (4): Yes, Jesus Christ...
Prabhupāda: So what is the order of Jesus Christ?
Guest (4): We believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right, but what Jesus Christ says?
Rāmeśvara: Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Kṛṣṇa has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Kṛṣṇa, He says, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Kṛṣṇa's statement, therefore...
Prabhupāda: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.
Rāmeśvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When people ask me, "How many members do you have, how many people?" I don't answer any more "Five thousand," or something like that. Now I tell them many millions. Because the thing is when they ask, when you ask someone how many Christians are there in America, of such and such sect, they don't mean priests, they mean also the people who are coming.
Rāmeśvara: Congregation.
Prabhupāda: Congregation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should give that number, not as five thousand, but as so and so many millions.
Prabhupāda: That I say, when people ask me that how many followers you have got in India.... They're wholesale.
Rāmeśvara: You once said that Christianity will die out. We will be the only religion left.
Prabhupāda: I do not remember that.
Rāmeśvara: Someone told me like that.
Prabhupāda: Christianity's already dead. We are purchasing the churches.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means dead.
Hari-śauri: And their priests are coming to join us as well.
Prabhupāda: See, this temple, this was closed. There was no men. And now balcony. In the same place, the same countrymen. That is the proof. This building. These boys and girls and men, they are not imported from India.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are formerly Christians and Jews.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: These demons that are trying to challenge us, they cannot stop our movement for ten thousand years.
Prabhupāda: What is their challenge? They have no, nothing to challenge. Unless they are violent. That much they can do, like demons.
Rāmeśvara: Even the priests, they said that when the Pope issued that document, they lost faith in him as the representative of God.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Rascal priests also so sinful. Yes, they're supporting homosex. So when the priests are sinful, the public is sinful, how the church will go on? Churches, they are expecting church must support abortion and child killing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, it is progressive. They feel that is the progressive way to think.
Rāmeśvara: And the church should not interfere with their.... That is their decision.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is personal life.
Prabhupāda: This is the rascal.
Rāmeśvara: That priest that has now become your disciple, he's joining Satsvarūpa Mahārāja's party. He's very interested, and Satsvarūpa Mahārāja has said he would like him to come to travel together and study.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: In the West, people are generally unfamiliar, I think, with the philosophy of Śaṅkara, yet in your books you devote so much argument to defeating Māyāvāda philosophy. I was wondering if it is within every conditioned soul's heart to be an impersonalist. Is it.... Does every conditioned soul have the propensity for impersonalism?
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot understand God; therefore it is impersonalism. It is due to their poor fund of knowledge. So most people are in poor fund of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that "Why shall I suffer for my...?" They do not believe in the karma, fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is the topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization. Ignorance.
Stansky: Yes. Now the reason I would like to keep a log and prepare an outline and start a book, say a year from now, it would show a transition from Roman priesthood to Hare Kṛṣṇa devotee. I think this would open up the door to all of the colleges and universities across the country.
Prabhupāda: Very good idea, yes. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). The nature is if we get better engagement, we give up inferior engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. So this will be an example. You are a Roman priest. You are educated, learned scholar also. So when you come to this movement, you do not come here by sentiment or by whims. You consider, then you have come.
George Gullen: You appear to have a program of great discipline, and I think that discipline is necessary for people who want to feel and learn and understand. I'm an admirer of discipline. But it's hard for one to bring oneself to do that out of a world that's strange, a strange world. Our world is strange, try to bring myself out of that to other things. But I'm pleased to have this opportunity to hear you and to think about it, talk about it. I'd like to read more about it.
Prabhupāda: One priest has joined us. What is his name?
Satsvarūpa: Eugene Stowsky.
Prabhupāda: He's Ph.D. He has recently joined us. He likes this movement.
George Gullen: I'm sure it satisfies a deep need. I'm sure that's true.
Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society.
Hari-śauri: It's on now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's on. That priest was very responsive. It's very nice.
Prabhupāda: He wanted to become student.
Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously, he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge.... That is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard, and they're priest.
Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever.
Prabhupāda: Simply by the position: "I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on?
Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got?
Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't.... In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us.
Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued one booklet that "These boys, they're our boys, mostly they are coming from Christian or Jewish families. But before this movement, they were not coming even to the church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God." He issued one pamphlet like that. These boys.
Scheverman: Oh, you're referring to the young men right here, coming from Boston, that's what you're saying, I see. Right.
Prabhupāda: We have got many places. Los Angeles we purchased one church, a very big church. That church was vacant, nobody was coming. They tried so much to invite men, but nobody was coming. But after we have purchased, the church is the same, and the inhabitants are residents of Los Angeles, but it is always packed up.
Kern: I saw a film of a leader of ours, Jean Vanye(?) from Canada and France. He took five thousand retarded.... In Spanish, we say (indistinct), to Rome just for the experience. And they were all in wheelchairs, old and young and small ones—not understanding very much, but a wonderful experience for them, the weak and the wounded.
Jayādvaita: (explaining to Prabhupāda) One priest took many handicapped people, who...
Prabhupāda: No, why you are speaking of handicapped? Who has taken the handicapped? Handicapped is handicapped.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Our program for them is also like this, to give them spiritual...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that, we shall deal with the handicapped later on.
Kern: That's my, that's my...
Prabhupāda: First of all, we take the general people.
Kern: Well, you see, in our training for priests, our training for religious women and men, brothers, our people in this work would heartily agree in the need that there is for that training.
Prabhupāda: There is. Just like I have already said that to keep your body in order you require to keep the head, the hands, the belly and the legs in order. Otherwise, there will be disorder. The present position of the whole human society is in disorder.
Scheverman: So you are talking not only about an intellectual fitness development, but also a physical fitness of body to go along with that.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No.
Hari-śauri: Social body.
Prabhupāda: Physical fitness, they are, this.... To keep the brain in order, that is also physical thing. So.... And the soldier trained up how to fight, that is also physical. But you cannot ask the high-court judge to go and fight in the field. Both of them are physical, but you cannot ask the high-court judge, "Go and fight in the front." His business is different, his business is different.
Scheverman: We'll see you in.... (priests depart)
Prabhupāda: Somebody's going (indistinct)
Jayādvaita: These priests like to be in the position of your disciples.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayādvaita: These Christian priests.
Prabhupāda: If you remain to your principles, you can make the whole world your disciple. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. You have read that?
Jayādvaita: Yes. Upadeśāmṛta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. If one is a gosvāmī,
- vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ
- jihvā-vegam udaropastha-vegam
- etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ
- sarvām apīmāṁ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt
- (NOI 1)
Jagadīśa: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God, and be afraid of God. But then as I went to high school, due to...
Prabhupāda: .... association, everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first-class man section. A first-class.... All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.
Satsvarūpa: This priest who joined us, who's now your man, he said that although he was a priest, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day and drank all kind of wine. He began to drink wine, he said, because in their mass, in their ceremony, the priest drinks wine. And then then he became addicted.
Prabhupāda: These rascals are priests. And they'll protect religion.
Hari-śauri: We used to have a Reverend who was in charge of our local church when I was a child. And when we used to go on outings, sometimes they used to organize outings for children to the seaside and everything, and they would stop at a public house and they would give refreshments. So all the children would get lemonade, like that, and the grown-ups would go and drink some beer or something. So the...
Prabhupāda: Their father, mother drinking, and the child is given some soft drinking. And learning how to drink when he'll grow up.
Prabhupāda: They can hold kīrtana. That will be nice, if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: They want the fire. They want the fire. They want to have a priest to build, to make a fire ceremony for their wedding. Many Indians ask this.
Prabhupāda: So on the whole, what they are going to pay?
Viśvakarmā: About five hundred dollars.
Jagadīśa: Five hundred dollars!
Viśvakarmā: Oh, yes. I mean, I had some Indian men that gave three hundred dollars worth of bhoga just for your coming. Four men came with seventy pounds of butter, fifty pounds of sugar, so many preparation, ah, bhoga for offering. So I think they'll pay five hundred dollars. That's for catering. We give the prasāda, we give the hall for the evening. They can come, and the devotees will be there. We distribute prasāda to them, have kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: If kīrtana, prasāda distribution is there, you can allow. That is our main program.
Prabhupāda: No. During British period, high British officers, big, big managers, they liked Indians with original culture. They did not like any Indian with European imitation-pants, coats. They didn't like these imitations. My Godbrother, that German, Sadānanda.... You have heard his name or you have seen him?
Jagadīśa: No.
Prabhupāda: When he came to India, he was my intimate friend. So he was telling me that "In our country, when some Indian student comes, especially while returning home after their education, they stop for some time in Germany, we used to inquire from him how much he is aware of his Indian original culture." Because they have got very good respect. All over the world they have got. Even Russia. They have got good respect for Indian culture. They have liked our books only on account of the..., because the Sanskrit verses are there. They took it, "Oh, it is original." Scholarly people like our book on that account, because we explain original Sanskrit verse. That they have got very good regard, that there is knowledge. They're impressed. And Britishers made propaganda only that India had no culture, almost uncivilized: They push women forcibly in the fire after the death of her husband, and in the temple, the priests, they make all nonsense with women, and so on. This was their.... Just to prove that "India was uncivilized, and we are making them civilized. By our compassion for the uncivilized persons, we are occupying."
Jagadīśa: Is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will, in the future, turn the tide and gain predominating influence? Change...
Prabhupāda: Thing is that if the leaders of the society, they come to their consciousness, that this way the society cannot be peaceful, the way they are now conducting.... If they have brain.... Just like the other day, the Christian priest. He was speaking of disabled men. You were present? I challenge you: what do you mean by disabled man? If one man has lost his arm, can you supply it? Then he stopped.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Now my request is that you take up this movement. It is actually a great contribution to the human society. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Those who are leaders of the society, if they take it, it is easily understood and easily distributed. So there is no question of sectarian thought. It is the necessity of the human society to understand God. The other day in Detroit, two father priests came to see me. I also requested that we require a set of first-class men that is not there at the present moment. There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That's all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that's all. So one asura was given one thousand hands by Lord Śiva. But he could not find any enemy. So he was fighting with hills and mountains and making him smashed. So he came to Lord Śiva: "Sir, you have given me one thousand hands, but there is no enemy for me. I cannot fight." So Śiva said, "Yes, you just wait for the day when your enemy will come who will smash you into pieces." (laughs) So we are simply equipping with arms and finding out to whom we'll fight. That is going on. So everyone is manufacturing the atomic weapons. So there must be some fight, so that all the nations will be ruined. (end)
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking, they are running on four-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs."
Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that.
Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest. Everyone is ignorant. Dull-headed ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) ...hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or (indistinct). And not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Hari-śauri: America seems to be one big highway.
Prabhupāda: They have got cars and they have got roads also. Very good. That's all right. But why they should give up the real business of life?
Hari-śauri: I don't think it's so much that they gave it up; they didn't ever know what it was.
Prabhupāda: There was no preaching. There was no education on this subject. The Christian priests, they are unable to...
Kīrtanānanda: They have no knowledge themselves. How they can teach?
Hari-śauri: They are all giving up out of hopelessness themselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking... In Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swamiji, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted.
Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India looking for enlightenment.
Prabhupāda: Perhaps it was some shock when I said that "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break)
Pradyumna: Tatas cānudinaṁ satyaḥ, dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣama daya.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Find that verse. You can quote that "This Kali-yuga it is waning; therefore they are becoming animals." Man without religion means animals. That's all. This is the definition. In the human society, either you become Christian or you become Mohammedan or you become a Hindu or you become Buddhist. It doesn't matter. There must be some system of religion. That is human society. And human society without religion—animal society. This is plain fact. So why people are unhappy now? Because there is no religion. They are neglecting religion. That one gentleman, he has written me that Tolstoy said that "Unless one dynamite is put underneath a church, there cannot be any peace." That means they want... The Russians, the Communists, they are very strict against God consciousness. Because they think so, that this religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. It might have been misused, religious system. That does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken. Because religion has not been properly executed by the so-called priest, it does not mean that religion should be rejected. My eye is giving some trouble on account of cataract, but that doesn't mean eye should be plucked out. The cataract should be removed. So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They have no conception of God, and they are preaching religion. What is that religion? That will be misused. Religion means dharmaṁ tu sāksād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19).
Kulādri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God.
Prabhupāda: Then? What kind of love it is?
Kulādri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept.
Prabhupāda: One is bound to do. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana. If he does not do, then he's animal. It must be done. There is no question of optional. If you are human being, you must be religious, you must recognize the supreme controller. Otherwise, you are animal. What is the other interpretations? Beginning one?
Hari-śauri: "Monastic condition, being a monk or a nun."
Prabhupāda: Just like every religion has got some condition, monastic, is it not?
Hari-śauri: Yes, every religion has a system of priests.
Prabhupāda: (Coughs severely for a few minutes) Monastic condition?
Hari-śauri: "Practice of sacred rites."
Prabhupāda: So, without reference to God, what is the meaning of sacred rites? Everything is reference that accepting the supreme controller. That is the real meaning. At least, Christian religion accepts God, Muhammadan religion accepts God, or Hindu religion accepts God. So without God, how it can be religion? If there is no understanding of God, the conclusion comes that there is no religion. Fictitious. "We trust in God," but do not know what is God. This is going on. So we have to fight against all this nonsense. Nonsense scientists, nonsense religionists. What do you think? It is not easy-going, sleeping business. We have to fight with so many demons. Otherwise, kava dava adakanam (?), my Guru Mahārāja used to say. Beg some rice and bring it and cook it and eat and sleep.
Prabhupāda: We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is being appreciated. It will take some time. Because so much mischievous activities have been done by the Māyāvādīs, to counteract, it will take some time. They are simply mischievous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has rejected them. Māyāvādī bhāṣya sunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If one takes the Māyāvādī version of the śāstras, then his spiritual life is finished. He becomes atheist. His spiritual life is finished. Now what is the contribution? You talked about Vivekananda, what is his contribution?
Dr. Sukla: Nothing.
Prabhupāda: Nothing. Simply he has taught the sannyāsīs to eat meat. That is his contribution. He says there is no harm eating meat. This is going on. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra. Daridra-nārāyaṇa, these are Vivekananda's contribution. And spoiled India's spiritual tradition. He has created one illiterate priest as God. That is his contribution, if we become honest to understand. So it will take some time to counteract all these mischievous activity. Simply mischievous.
Guest (1): Prabhupāda, did Christ return to the spiritual planets then, when he left the earth, to be with Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa, we accept him as śaktyāveśa-avatāra. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message; he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience... Now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said, "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with.
Guest (1): What would happen to the people that killed Christ on the cross? Very bad, it seems.
Rāmeśvara: Just like in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also. (laughter)
Interviewer: Well, I didn't necessarily mean the specifics.
Bali-mardana: In other words the purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always be questioning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When the system is imperfect, then it has to be changed according to time and circumstance. But if the system is itself perfect, there is no question of... Just like the perfect system: the sun rises from the eastern side. So for millions and trillions of years the system is going on because the system is perfect. It doesn't require change, neither you can change. You cannot ask the sun to rise from the western side. So if the soul is eternal, it does not die or it is slain after the body is finished. But that is eternal fact. Destined in the past present and future, everything.
Indian man: When I was a young boy, eight years old, I went to Śrīnāthajī with my father, mother, and there I had to take the brahma-samāna,(?) which is the oath, taking of the oath in front of the Mahārāja and the priest of the Śrīnāthajī temple. And is that equal to initiation, or is that just a ceremony by itself?
Prabhupāda: No, initiation is another ceremony.
Indian man: What are the qualifications required for a person in working life like me, household like me, like myself, to get initiated?
Prabhupāda: No, you can be initiated. There is no... Because you are following the rules and regulations. That's it. We initiate a person who follows the rules and regulations.
Jayatīrtha: ...was sitting previously, which was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaiṣṇava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaiṣṇavas are considered to be very narrow-minded (laughter). Now I can understand...
Prabhupāda: Here. He was kicked out.
Jayatīrtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this.
Prabhupāda: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in Hollywood that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that "Ramakrishna was formerly Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said, "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This Ramakrishna rascal's first proposal was that Ramakrishna Thakura was formerly Caitanya. This is beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) (sounds of massage?) This is framework house. If some of the swamis may have said, they say that "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that "We are not calling you. Kṛṣṇa says. So we are pushing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Kṛṣṇa says na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious; therefore you must be mūḍha."
Harikeśa: Nandarāṇī's making khicuḍi with the peas and okra.
Prabhupāda: Okra could be done separately. Let her do independently.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's doing both. She first mixed it, now she's also making separate.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Anyway, let her do it. She was cooking for me in Māyāpur.
Harikeśa: I heard you like it very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say, "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say "We believe," no more further than that. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bas, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again.
Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like. You simply admit it. Then it's right" (indistinct) This is their propaganda. They do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory, that "Our religion is so... Maybe we are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. This is.
Saurabha: They're also criticized a lot there. They have been criticized a lot there locally. People, they think they are CIA.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Us?
Saurabha: No. The MRA. Because they have big meetings twice a year only.
Prabhupāda: The MRA, they are Americans?
Saurabha: Yes. Most are Europeans, Americans.
Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest.
Gargamuni: Then they don't know what to say. They say, "You mean you don't know that Chicago Address?" We say, "No. What? Oh, when Prabhupāda went for Ratha-yātrā? Yes, that we know."
Prabhupāda: That Chicago Address was the worst. He is defying, "Why you give credit to God?" This is the... We have seen that Chicago Address. Now they are eliminating. Most blasphemous. One Christian priest, he was surprised, "What kind of nonsense these Indians are..." He asked him, "How you are speaking in this way, 'Why you are giving credit to God?' " He said like that, "You are working, why you are giving credit to God?" This is Vivekananda's realization. And he created God, a illiterate priest, he become God. Because he said, "I am God." That is the proof.
Saurabha: ...in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: So first of all finish your construction. Then you go to (indistinct).
Saurabha: (indistinct), they carving the wood and everything, the shape of the...
Prabhupāda: Now, we shall bring priests from Hyderabad.
Saurabha: Aha. That is the technical thing. But I was speaking regarding the construction because I want to know whether you want to have the bathing ceremony only taking place on the opening day, or also later on the facility can...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Saurabha: Only that day.
Prabhupāda: Only that day.
Saurabha: Then is it necessary to make this special arrangement that this...
Prabhupāda: No, no. The small deities, śālagrāma, they are worshiped. And big Deity, they are decorated nicely. No need of worshiping.
Saurabha: And on the opening day the Deities will be on the altar or they will be in front when they're bathed? When the bathing is taking place in Bombay for the opening...
Prabhupāda: That the priest will arrange who will come from...
Saurabha: Yes. But they will be on the altar or they will be in front?
Prabhupāda: No. In the front they are left.
Saurabha: So not on the altar.
Prabhupāda: No. But if it is risky, you should not do. Big Deity, we have got big Deity, huh?
Indian man: They consider it a delicacy. I had a German priest staying with me last year and he was telling me that he had wonderful soup. And when he found out what was the soup, he said, "Well, didn't you see the puppy that was going about this morning? It is soup of the same puppy."
Prabhupāda: In Hong Kong. Yes. In Hong Kong you won't find street dogs. They'll eat them. So in India also there are dog-eaters. In Assam you'll find. They make kukura-piṭhā. Kukura-piṭhā means that first of all the dog is given to eat some rice preparation with gur (Indian brown sugar). And pushing, pushing. When he dies, then it is roasted. Then that is very good food. (laughter) Kukura-piṭhā. The Assamese, they eat. There are different nations. Śva-paca, this word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca (BG 5.18).
Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas?
Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are... You see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swamiji, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys..." In Boston, one priest said. "And they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there. You will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different. It is filled up.
Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper...
Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged, and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that?
Haṁsadūta: And at least according to Bible, it appeared that the Jewish priests, they went to the governor or the chief man at that time, and they demanded that he has to do something about this man.
Prabhupāda: They have proposed it. That Houston politician, "It is spreading like epidemic." Hm? Come. "It is spreading like epidemic. Something must be done." Otherwise one day they'll capture our government." That's a fact. If so many young men join this movement, they will vote. Because your country is democratic. (conchshell blows) Do this what I suggested.
Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where they quoted him saying, God is man and man is God.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age.
Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say, "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say.
Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda, that I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma, and he accepted. He accepted. (Hindi conversation) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please sir, give me car." That's all. He is such a great man; bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on. (Hindi conversation) Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. (Hindi conversation)
Jagadīśa: Hindi. P-a-n-d-h-i. And it has been signed by Padam Dakkad, the Treasurer of the World Foundation of Religion, by S.C. Shastri, Priest in charge, Sanatan Dharm, Cultural Ashram of America, Pandit Hari Prasad, priest in charge and president of the Vedic Mission of the Americas, Prakash something, Managing Director of the Literary Guild of India, Des R. Puri, President of Hindu Center, Swami Shambu Devananda, Vishnu Devananda.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he's a very important man.
Jagadīśa: No, Shambu Devananda on behalf of Swami Vishnu Devananda. And Surendra Kumar Patel of the Vishva Hindu Parishad of America.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Vishva Hindu Parishad.
Jagadīśa: Umadatta Maharaja, Mahatma Gandhi Satsang Society, Hari-Hara Yoga Center...
Prabhupāda: It is very representative.
Prabhupāda: As far one who is paṇḍita, in the position of Rūpa Gosvāmī, for him, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Indian man: He'll see woman and man equal.
Prabhupāda: There is no difference. And if he makes such distinction, then how he's paṇḍita? Then he's not paṇḍita. But it is etiquette, mātā svasā duhitā vā. One should not very closely sit down even with mother, sister, and daughter. That restriction is there. But that does not mean that one should not see even a woman. So we are following that principle. Never mind, man or woman, she can offer her respect, but not very near. That restriction must be there. (break) We have support from very high circle. Scholar, priest, even father, mother, parent. Many old gentlemen come to congratulate me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come to this country." In Los Angeles they have been very nice. Many parents used to come. (Hindi)
Śrutaśrava: The governor there, he was making a statement that most institutions in California like hospitals and places like this, they are simply torture chambers. So he made one request that people like priests and monks and Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, if they could go to these places and try to help people.
Prabhupāda: We are prepared. If they give us in charge, we are prepared.
Śrutaśrava: So in Christmas day Rāmeśvara Mahārāja was planning that many devotees could go there and distribute prasāda and some literatures.
Prabhupāda: We can cure them from material and spiritual diseases. They are now trying to cure them from material ailments. We can cure them from spiritual ailments. Actually, the ailment is spiritual. Material is symptom. (end)
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And we have got good support from the scholarly section by big, big professors. Even one priest, Mr. Cox, he is forming an association to support this movement in Harvard University. So we have got supporters also.
CID Chief: People are also coming in a good number to join this organization.
Prabhupāda: Indian community, they are also supporting us.
Prabhupāda: Well, there are good and bad every place. Most of them are... Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). This is Kali-yuga.
Dr. Patel: But I have read some letters that some of the university professors of philosophy, many of them are in your favor.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, many. All intelligent, they are in favor. They're also grouping to defend us. They are also grouping.
Dr. Patel: That is more important. The fools may say anything, and dogs may bark.
Prabhupāda: One priest, very famous priest all over the world, is in our favor, Mr. Cox. Who is that?
Jagadīśa: Cox, yes.
Prabhupāda: He is determined to defend this movement.
Jagadīśa: From Harvard.
Prabhupāda: Harvard University.
Dr. Patel: In fact the Christianity is a bhāgavata-dharma...
Prabhupāda: No, it...
Dr. Patel: ...in a way.
Prabhupāda: We have admitted. But Christianity has fallen. Here is the real religious system.
Hari-śauri: It's described here. It says, "Kuvera gave Him a pot for begging alms, and mother Bhagavati, the wife of Lord Śiva and most chaste mother of the entire universe, gave Him His first alms."
Prabhupāda: Bhikṣa-mātā. Bhikṣa means giving alms. At least every woman becomes a bhikṣa-mātā, alms-giving mother. This is system. My mother was bhikṣa-mātā to one brāhmaṇa. He is the son of our priest. Family priest, family guru, vipra-mātā, still in Hindu family, the system is still going on, brāhmaṇa visiting daily, informing, "Today is this tithi. The duty is this, the sunrise at this time is..." This is brāhmaṇa's duty, to go to the neighboring householders, and whatever they give, take. That is brāhmaṇa's art. At the same time, they keep some medicine. Every house there is some ailments. They'll give some medicine. Still. Now it is not so... In our childhood every day some brāhmaṇa visitor would come. So I will take massage like yesterday, early.
Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress...
Rāmeśvara: They say "If people knew you were the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they would not give you so much money."
Haṁsadūta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes.
Rāmeśvara: (laughing) To catch a demon.
Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs)
Jagadīśa: Vāmanadeva also went in disguise. And Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma, and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarāsandha.
Haṁsadūta: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you wrote about Prahlāda Mahārāja, they tried to find out "Where are these Vaiṣṇavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: What is the wrong there?
Rāmeśvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad-gītā you should not think that Kṛṣṇa is God. So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They say "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Kṛṣṇa as God."
Prabhupāda: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. Why do you go to India? In your country, your countrymen take it.
Rāmeśvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country.
Dr. Patel: By his own men.
Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb (Bengali). In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him.
Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same.
Prabhupāda: (laughs, repeats saying)
Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement?
Prabhupāda: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark.
Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite.
Prabhupāda: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) They simply make their show. Neither they can bite. We shall go now? (end)
Rāmeśvara: So, actually, their arguments are not very... So therefore it is simply a plan of Kṛṣṇa to help give us some prominence, make us more well known.
Jagadīśa: Give us a chance to preach.
Rāmeśvara: Because their arguments have no substance.
Prabhupāda: Defeat them. "God cannot came as fish." "Why? What kind of God He is? He likes, He can do. That is God."
Jagadīśa: When I heard the tape of this priest, this minister, and he was trying to cut down our religion, our movement, he was saying that "You believe that God came as a fish, as a tortoise, as a half lion, half man," it reminded me that whenever in the scriptures demons try to blaspheme-like Hiraṇyakṣa-tries to blaspheme against Lord Viṣṇu, Viśvanātha Cakravartī turns it around and makes it seem as if he's actually glorifying Him. You can't blaspheme Kṛṣṇa because whatever you say about Him is simply another glorification. They try to criticize, "Your God had sixteen thousand wives." Actually that's something wonderful. They just take it in the wrong way.
Gargamuni: Even in the big, rich families, when they want son they perform some pūjā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no. According to Vedic system, everything is so... When the woman is pregnant there are so many ceremonies. When we were children, and I was in the middle, I saw my other, two, three brothers and sisters born. So there was some ceremony. We were eating with mother in that ceremony. That ceremony was because my mother was pregnant. Sad-bhakṣā. Sad-bhakṣā. There are ten kinds of ceremonies, before the birth and after the birth, daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So many religious ceremonies my mother was observing, and all the expenditure my father was giving. Every month, two, three ceremonies, very nice ceremonies. We were children; we were eating. So we...
Gargamuni: A brāhmaṇa priest would come?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Brāhmaṇa priest would come. There would be pūjā. There would be nice feast. Now those things are gone.
Rāmeśvara: They never existed in America.
Prabhupāda: During our wife's time they were not... And what about our daughter's time? Now, generation by generation, giving it up.(?)
Rāmeśvara: Now they're simply thinking of ways, the scientists...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: I remember in school seeing films of India, and they would say, "This is very backward. They're living as they used to live hundreds of years ago by using the ox and the plow."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have, hundred years after, we have learned how to kill ox and bulls. That is your advancement. And kill your own children also. Rascal civilization. They say "primitive." I was talking with a priest in Australia. So he said, "This civilization you are suggesting, this is primitive." Do they call it primitive?
Gargamuni: But I think if we can convince the American government that we can stop Communism in India by this movement, because the people will see... They tried to do it with the priests.
Prabhupāda: Simply prasādam distribution-bas. We shall stop them with hari-saṅkīrtana, village to village.
Gargamuni: Yes, cause they frankly admit, the Americans, that they planted CIA agents in the priests to try and convince the people and change them. But they failed because these CIA agents became detected. So I told them that actually also this Christianity, the Indian people cannot accept, the mass of people. Maybe a few. But they can accept our movement.
Prabhupāda: No, that is in lower class, not brāhmaṇas.
Gargamuni: Yes. No. They will not accept. But they can accept this movement.
Prabhupāda: This movement will accept because there is prasādam, teaching, and actual behavior, Vaiṣṇava.
Gargamuni: And they've been brought up in it thousands of years. They will accept it. "And it's coming from America. Therefore you should support it."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?
Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.
Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?
Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.
Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?
Hari-śauri: Yes, He's world famous for the last two thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?
Hari-śauri: I don't... That was at one of those...
Prabhupāda: The priest meeting.
Hari-śauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.
Hari-śauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what can be done?
Hari-śauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there's no good water.
Prabhupāda: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.
Hari-śauri: Yes. (laughs) Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.
Prabhupāda: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Most of my disciples they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant... That means... The Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada, Australia. The problem is that... Actually it's a fact that many of these groups are bad. They're cheating. Of course, ours is not, but because they're not very intelligent, they cannot see the distinction. Probably as a result of this court case, we will make them aware that now the other groups are bogus but we are not. That they'll have to admit. That will be the effect. But at least up until now we are being lumped in with these other bad groups. Cults, they call them. But it's a very dangerous thing. Therefore the lawyers and all of the scholars and intelligentsia of the United States is very alarmed that this is a great treading on human rights. This is a great danger to human rights because the Fifth Amendment of the... The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion. But according to these laws that they want to pass, a parent can say, "It is not a question of religion. My son has become abnormal." So who is to say what is religion and what is abnormal? They are saying, "This is not religion." So we have to prove, "No, this is... Hare Kṛṣṇa is a religion." Otherwise they are saying this is abnormal. Now, just... Our lawyer has pointed out that if you say that the devotees' preaching is brainwash, then you must say that every single Christian priest who preaches, he is also brainwashing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The priests are doing all rascal nonsense. Homosex.
Prabhupāda: They announced that...(?) There is a hospital for drunkard priest.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Alcoholic priests.
Prabhupāda: And they have introduced gambling.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And homosex.
Prabhupāda: Homosex, what is that religion? And they're passing to homosex, religion. They're getting married man to man. Most degraded.
Hari-śauri: There's no difference between the behavior of a priest and the behavior of a gross atheist...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...except he's dressed as a priest.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Dress only.
Hari-śauri: But they have exactly the same mentality.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Business.
Hari-śauri: It's simply a way of making a livelihood.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Here also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A man, when he thinks of his occupation, he thinks, "I can still get married and be the leader of the church. I'll get married, have a family, and this will be my profession, to be a priest."
Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what it is. It's a profession only.
Prabhupāda: Profession.
Hari-śauri: One of my friends was considering, "Shall I..." He had come to a point where he was thinking, "Now I'll either become a police officer or I'll become a priest." But he couldn't quite make his mind up.
Prabhupāda: In our college days we read one book. That was our textbook. It is a story, that a boy was meant for church and he fell in love with a girl. That is the psychology. Cloister and the Hearth. What is the cloister?
Hari-śauri: Inner sanctuary.
Prabhupāda: And hearth? Home.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Home.
Prabhupāda: That book was named Cloister and Hearth. So get Bombay finished very quickly and book-printing, stock, propaganda. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ted Patrick says that celibacy is a sign of insanity. He kidnaps nuns, priests... Anybody who takes celibate vow, he says he is not in his right mind.
Brahmānanda: He took one of our devotees and brought him to the naked dance shows and even hired prostitutes to go with him.
Ādi-keśava: I asked him once, I said, "If you had a chance..."
Prabhupāda: You saw him?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On television. Ādi-keśava was on television with him.
Ādi-keśava: I said to him, "If you had a chance to deprogram the Pope, would you do it?" He said, "Oh, definitely. I'd love to."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If the Pope was celibate.
Prabhupāda: (looking at photo) Who is this boy?
Prabhupāda: I do not say that we are very good brain. We are servant of God. We have nothing to show, any brain. Our brain will be shown by our master. Our position is God. So we are not very much anxious to show our... But you are godless rascals. You want to show your brain. Show me machine. We have all accepted that supreme brain is Kṛṣṇa and we are servant. That is our position. We don't say that "Independent. There is no God." We don't. You say that. We are working under superior brain. So the case has to be proved by you, not by us. What is called, onus? What is that, onus?
Brahmānanda: Burden of proof.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your duty, not us. You have to prove it. (break) And now don't go to the court with any other dress. Preach like this. Preach there with this dress. Have they any objection with this dress?
Hari-śauri: In this dress.
Ādi-keśava: I agree. I think it is very good that they see us dressed like this in court.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we should...
Ādi-keśava: They will understand what we are.
Prabhupāda: We shall...
Hari-śauri: We have to represent our religion properly.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A priest will not put on a suit.
Ādi-keśava: In fact one time... Even the last time I went...
Prabhupāda: No, whatever is done, done. Now you make a difference. In any case, we shall go in this dress.
Hari-śauri: Tell Rāmeśvara that, too.
Prabhupāda: They requested me to change the dress. I have... The Ramakrishna Mission, that "Unless you dress yourself..." "I have no money. You give me three dress for public.(?) Then I shall do it. I know how to dress. In my business life I was dressing like that, but now I have no money. You give me money." (laughter) I told them that. (laughs) "I know how to dress like a gentleman. Every day it must be changed, must be nicely ironed. But I have no money. You need not required to teach me. I know how to dress like an European gentleman. And I have no money." (break) ...coat, same pant, same hat—I do not like that. If I dress like a European, I must change daily. Do they not? A respectable European?
Satsvarūpa: Jayatīrtha sent a cartoon from Punch Magazine. Big, big church, and the priest in the pulpit, and there's only lady there, and in the sermon he's saying, "Mrs. Bennett, you have to give more in the collection." She's the only one there. He said, "I think you will enjoy this, Prabhupāda. It shows the position of churches in the West."
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen London. So many hundreds of churches are closed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're buying all the churches.
Prabhupāda: All churches are closed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just see. They call a meeting of five hundred rabbis, all of the leading rabbis, and the Jewish leaders in the whole USA, just to deal with this question of "The cults taking our children."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Us? Au...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're the main cult.
Prabhupāda: Then? This is a verse. They do not know what is the aim of life.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see which groups are alarmed—the parents, the rabbis, and the priests.
Prabhupāda: They should be alarmed. If Hare Kṛṣṇa movement goes on, then their culture will be finished.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one newsletter they had where they published, "Now our main enemies..." And they listed who the enemies are. They listed Rāmeśvara's name, Ādi-keśava's name, Kīrtanānanda's name. "These are dangerous enemies," they said.
Prabhupāda: Enemy must be always dangerous. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said that "Don't take enemy leniently. Always think of him as dangerous." If you want to deal with enemy, you should always take him as very dangerous. Where is that sweet water? Sweet, that miśri?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually they are looking to our society to provide them some spiritual place of worship. They're actually looking to us as priests.
Prabhupāda: American brāhmaṇas. Go-brāhmaṇa. American milk, American brāhmaṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja has organized the life membership program to send the Indian members milk sweets in the mail every week from the farm. Burfi, sandeśa.
Prabhupāda: They also like. And in America, the Indians are there, they are all educated. They're not low-class men.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They read your books carefully.
Prabhupāda: This... There are some statements. Just like molten iron, a man can break for illicit sex. What is their objection?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that is for people who don't sign the contract with him. That is what they say. As long as you say that you accept Jesus, then you are going to heaven for sure.
Prabhupāda: So then Jesus Christ accepted sinful reaction of a certain class of men. He is not universal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only those who accept him.
Girirāja: That means the Christians.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And anyone who was born before Jesus, he is doomed.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their great philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Great philosophy.
Girirāja: So this point was an embarrassment for the Christian theologians, because people would say, "Well, what about great philosophers like Socrates and Plato who lived before Jesus? They are also damned to suffer in hell?" So this question was very perplexing. It was hard for them to condemn that they are all burning in hell. I mean, actually they have no philosophy at all.
Prabhupāda: All nonsense.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why we rejected our so-called religious heritage. We could see that there was no substance to it. And the leaders were just like normal debauchees of any other groups. They weren't spiritual. I used to remember seeing the priests and the rabbis getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, talking nonsense just like everybody else. There was no difference except for the dress.
Prabhupāda: This is everywhere. In India also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja, did you get those passbooks by any chance?
Girirāja: Amogha-līlā was... Mr. Krishnamurti didn't come back until the afternoon, so it couldn't be taken for being brought up to date.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'm going today. I have to meet with Girirāja about a number of things, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not strict anymore. Priests are smoking cigarettes, watching television.
Prabhupāda: If there is no training, naturally it will deteriorate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Jayapatākā: The Muhammadans... At one place the Muhammadan who heard my lecture in Dacca, he came and approached me and said that "What you are preaching," he said, "this is very applicable for the modern day and..." He lives in Mymensingh. He said "In Mymensingh there is really a majority of Hindu, and they have their sādhu-saṅga and priests there, but it's very, very old-fashioned, and we find it very unacceptable, but what you are saying we find very enthusing." So he arranged the program for me at Mymensingh, the Muhammadan. And every Muhammadan I met, discussed with, ultimately they became interested, just because it was represented in a way acceptable to them. They say, "You are Hindu?" I say, "No, we are Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava means we believe in only one Supreme God, and He has got no equal and no second." "So you...? We believe in the same."
Prabhupāda: There is a... Asamaurdhva. There cannot be anyone equal to God or greater than God. Then He is God.
Jayapatākā: Many young men, both Hindu and Muhammadan, will join, I'm quite sure. Right now we're getting the society registered and getting a place. Before we actually...
Prabhupāda: So did you not get? Finish that. Get the place and society registered.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They make money by tour of the Parliament House.
Prabhupāda: "Shopkeepers' nation." The Parliament has become a shop. Artificially they're maintaining an atmosphere of aristocracy. There is not... I talked with some of their Lords. Artificial. The have lost all prestige. Still, "I belong to the Lords' House." The priestly order, the Lord family, I talked with them. Simply artificial.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually you gave it up as useless. To talk with those priestly orders, I remember, you concluded, "This is a waste of time." They're not at all priestly.
Prabhupāda: They have no intelligence. Anyway, do something.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I think if we take the help of this head priest it will be reliable. They can do it right in his presence. Smara-hari is also very good. He does all of the purchasing for Yaśodā-nandana Mahārāja, of whatever they purchase for Deities, whatever they purchase for ceremonies, for Fiji. This Smara-hari does all purchasing, and he also purchases medicines. He's been in India six years now, and he's known to that head priest. So if he can purchase, then he can bring it.
Prabhupāda: Prepare, an experienced...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were thinking that some other devotee should go with him. Actually we were thinking about Bhakti-caru Mahārāja, the reason being that Bhakti-caru Mahārāja, being an Indian devotee, that's also one advantage that there should be one Western devotee, one Indian devotee, just in case he has to speak Hindi or something. And besides that, Bhakti-caru Mahārāja has got experience with you with all of these different kavirājas. So he'll be able to see a little bit whether the kavirāja is... You know. There should be some discretion on our part also. He knows the history. He knows your history, so he can explain it properly to the kavirāja.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no explanation. He must be sincere, the kavirāja, and must know how to do it. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, the recommendation would be done by that head priest of the temple of Śrī Raṅgam. That's where they would go. They wouldn't just go to look up somebody. They would get the... They would have the...
Prabhupāda: That will be vacant.(?) (very nice?)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better than Jalan. So then let us send him directly from here, Smara-hari, immediately. He can leave today. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we proceed to Māyāpur, and Smara-hari can come back with the medicine to Māyāpur. All right? So we'll make this plan. So then we'll make the arrangements just now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? All right.
Prabhupāda: By plane. Huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By plane, yes. Three seats for you. (break) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So all GBC left?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that can be done. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, here is Smara-hari, and he's going to be leaving today for South India. We've given him the instructions, and he's the proper person. He knows that chief priest in Śrī Raṅgam temple, and first thing is he's going to find out what are the ingredients of this makara-dhvaja. Then he's going to purchase the ingredients himself, and then he's going to go to the kavirāja and give it to the Rāmānuja kavirāja and have him make it right in front of him. He will supply the ingredients so that he knows the ingredients are bona fide, first class. And he'll see that they make it in front of him.
Prabhupāda: According to the direction of the Rāmānuja...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he'll have the Rāmānuja man make it. First he'll ask, "What are the ingredients?" Then he'll go and get those ingredients, and he'll bring it to the Rāmānuja man. And the Rāmānuja man will make it.
Prabhupāda: The man must be sincere and experienced.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then, after that, he'll come directly to Māyāpur. The whole thing—how long will it take? About two days to get there? A day or two... Maybe within a week's time he'll be in Māyāpur, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they make it quickly.
Prabhupāda: It will take time, as he said.
| Page Title: | Priest (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, MadhuGopaldas |
| Created: | 18 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=222, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 222 |