Expressions researched:
"preach"
|"preached"
|"preaches"
|"preaching"
|"preachings"
Guest (1) Indian man: This gentleman doesn't understand English.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break)
Guest (1): He's nice devotee of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. I remember many years ago, I met him in Surbaya. He used to preach on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but in Sindi language.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Guest (1) Indian man: This gentleman doesn't understand English.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break)
Guest (1): He's nice devotee of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. I remember many years ago, I met him in Surbaya. He used to preach on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but in Sindi language.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Guest (2) Indian man: Of course we do not have good translation in Sindi language as your translation.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (1): He's nice devotee. (Hindi) nice dedication (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: So we have explained in the Bhagavad-gītā everything very nicely. (Hindi conversation for some minutes) ...the Eighteenth Chapter you'll find out, 65, 67 (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes.
Guest (2): ...in establishing, for example, that Gītā meeting for some...
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Guest (2): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practically preaching the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And it is coming fruitful. It is coming very fruitful.
(conversation in Indonesian between guests)
Prabhupāda: Please translate.
Guest (2): He said, as a matter of fact, this Hindu religion in Indonesia, actually, most of them practicing Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā has been a part of their life, but as a matter of fact, because in practicing this Bhagavad-gītā, not all (indistinct) has been practiced but only part by part which is very necessary for the adjustment with the condition in Indonesia. Some of them, of course, they can memorizing the verses for their benefit in their practices. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So we are always prepared to help you, anytime you require our help. (indistinct) ...try, we shall very much try to explain Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
Prabhupāda: But still it has to be expanded, has to be more explicitly ex..., advertised. So our point is this, that we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are spreading the knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. So this is a world-wide organization and you know something about us, about this movement. So this part of the world, this is Southeast Asia?
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Southeast Asia. Why not combine it, join together, and scientifically preach this cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People will be very glad to accept it.
Scholar: What is the place of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam here, in this movement?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Scholar: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like before learning any literature, one has to read the first book, ABCD. The Bhagavad-gītā is the ABCD. It is just beginning of understanding of what is God. ABC. When one has passed the entrance examination, then he gets the opportunity of studying Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā the last instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is explaining Himself, and at last He says that you surrender unto me. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So if one has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then He's admitted in the college of studying Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is an... That you have to prepare. That is not for the cats and dogs. That is meant for really human beings, those who are actually executing life as human beings. That is not for the cats and dogs. (pause) All right. Thank you very much.
Scholar: Thank you for this time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now my request is that you have got some, you have so many, you're interested in Bhagava... Preach like this.
Scholar: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What he's asking?
Scholar: About what we are planning.
Prabhupāda: Planning, but you're not prepared for the planning. Otherwise I could have given you the plan. But you are not prepared. You say you think of. Then you think of, what can I do?
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I was prepared to give you the plan. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63).
Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center.
Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out?
Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not, then he must leave. That is... We are making so much preaching work to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason we ask, that is not...
Devotee: (softly) This was not a paltry reason.
Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and... That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something he is doing wrong..., that he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our word, śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ (?). By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my (indistinct). Because they are, they are, you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu. It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu. That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible... After trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be..., "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything.
Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him. I heard from (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated from. We are all trying to preach. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some (indistinct). So generally with our, general rules are (indistinct). First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and (indistinct) performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Devotee (2): If the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti. It can't be a negative (indistinct) thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person.
Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so, under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees?
Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta, we have our base in Bombay, those two places.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that.
Śyāmasundara: That's what, didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But we are... Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya.
Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes.
Prabhupāda: That is already divided. Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana.
Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge they could say which men they wanted to keep and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project, and if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else.
Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was my intimate friend. So in their house, old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich man. So, he informed me that "One nice sannyāsī came to our house," and he was invited, "in Ultadanga there is Gauḍīya Maṭha, so he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic (?), "I know all these sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me, "Oh, why not come? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in that Ultadanga building, and that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof. There was small house (indistinct) room, and we were welcome, because they thought Naren Mullik was very rich man and he has contributed some money. So, we went to see Prabhupāda, offered our obeisances. So immediately he said that "You are all educated young men, why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" So I replied him, "Sir, we are dependent nation, who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence," because I was politically-minded at that time. So he refuted my argument.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: First appearance of Back to Godhead (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes, 1944. I think you were at that time at my house. Yes. So, somehow or other, this intention for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu increased and the other side decreased. Viraktir anyatra syāt. But I was not disinclined, but Kṛṣṇa forced me that you must give up. (chuckles) And these thing is known better to Śrīdhara Mahārāja, how it decreased, decreased, decreased, then almost it become nil, and then I left home in 1950. Whatever was there, "All right, you do whatever you like." In 1954, four years I remained as vānaprastha, (indistinct) four years, from 1950 to 1959.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That will be (indistinct) to us, the land of gold and Golden Avatara (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: I am always (indistinct) to this, my American disciples that you are so much, I mean to say, taken care by God (?), this is... Your position is very good. Now you take to Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, and you become a perfect nation. That I preach always. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you have got everything. All material opulence. Now make it plus Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be very nice. Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. So, these boys are trying, very sincerely and seriously, and I hope, even I do not live many more years, they will carry out this order.
Tripurāri: Six volumes. They held the Bhāgavatams and said: "Thank you very much." And then they put them in their lockers and they were waiting for their plane and they each had the First Canto...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sincere man will feel obliged of our, this propaganda movement. "By distributing these books, you are doing a great service to Kṛṣṇa." He wanted to say everyone: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). He comes, therefore. So anyone who is doing the same service, that: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). In the human society, nobody is dearer than him who is helping preaching work. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the statement of Veda. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society, so many scientists are coming, so many psychologists coming.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... While preaching our movement we should take this attitude. We cannot make compromise with anyone. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya... Lord Caitanya's cult is to preach the instruction or talks about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa-prema?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. This is Caitanya's cult. Whomever you meet, you talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's, that is the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is genuine spiritual movement. Or the human society's movement. Spiritual, cultural, religious philosophical, scientific, everything, complete. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa (pause) So you admit these facts? From any angle of vision, if one does not accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, he is aimless, bogus. Unless you are convinced, how you can preach? But this is the fact. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) While preaching, you must have your locus standi, what is your position. And you must be able to defend your position.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we are asking questions so that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. You ask, clarify it. Be strong in your position and then preach. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra is a condensed statement, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra...
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is a condensed statement?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is like the...
Prabhupāda: Syn, synopsis. Synopsis. Just like in business there are codes, Bentley's codes. So to minimize the expenditure of telegraph, you give one word. From the other side, they will understand. There is code book. This code means that "Receive your letter. The quotation is supplied, that, that...," so many things, one code. You know that? Business codes. There are some stock words. That stock words is simply by two, one word, the whole stock word comes. Sūtra means that. Just like a, just like you missing something, as soon as you get one little code, you immediately remember: "Yes, yes, everything is there." That is called code, sūtra. Sūtra means thread.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because there is no solid background.
Prabhupāda: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kīrtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, "Come on." We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students... No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that "Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement." So I told them that "Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not." I told them freely. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā... Because they are student of Sanskrit. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). "So you are amongst these. You are duṣkṛtinas, sinful, lowest of the mankind, and the university is responsible for creating such rascals." So professors clapped and later on they said, "Swamiji, you have rightly said." All the professors said. And so far economic question is concerned, the birds, beasts, animals, they have no economic concern. Why you have got? You are less than bird and beast, you have created this economic problem. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Where is the economic question? The small birds, tiny birds, they are solving their economic question, coming (makes sound:) "bup, bup," finished. They are not stocking, they are not thinking of tomorrow, but are satisfied. They have got eating, sufficient eating, sufficient sex, sufficient intelligence to defend. As soon as we go, immediately they fly away. That is defense. They know how to defend them. They immediately understand, "They are human beings, stronger. They may do some harm. Let us fly away." So these things are everywhere, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. There is no scarcity. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we have to preach. Theology... Logy means science, is it not?
Paramahaṁsa: Just like many of our devotees, we experienced when we tried to preach to our parents, because they are much older, to admit that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right path in life, means to also admit that they have wasted their entire life.
Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān: (SB 7.6.1) "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.
Paramahaṁsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.
Paramahaṁsa: But preach first.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: They don't preach.
Prabhupāda: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Paramahaṁsa: A new method of warfare.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.
Paramahaṁsa: And one can worship Him within the stone or within everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under māyā, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. How to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā, why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, "Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati... and everything in Me, he's perfect."
Umāpati: That's their new religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?
Umāpati: Sense gratification.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā—you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati: "By knowing Kṛṣṇa only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy. Now, our question was that we say that the man... I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say, "The man is made after God." Is it not?
Paramahaṁsa: "In the image of God."
Prabhupāda: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God."
Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is, but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no...
Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say "Here is the controller."
Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one... Oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other.
Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process.
Krishna Tiwari: By any process.
Prabhupāda: Your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference.
Prabhupāda: And there was a picture: "Swamiji is playing on harmonium."
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And Tīrtha Mahārāja is trying a, feed (be?) a pigeon or something like that, and staring... These were the pictures while London preaching. And the money...
Prabhupāda: So our present Tīrtha Mahārāja, Bhakti-Vilāsa-Tīrtha Mahārāja, he's representing Prabhupāda. At least, he tries to pose himself. So Bon Mahārāja's activities, in comparison to that, my activities certainly better. And Bon Mahārāja was given so much reception. But he did not give me any reception. How he can claim to be Prabhupāda's representative?
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Bon Mahārāja was given reception because Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: No, Prabhupāda appreciated anyway.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Anyway.
Prabhupāda: But here there is no appreciation.
Prabhupāda: But here there is no appreciation.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He's representing, he's representing the mission, he thinks. He thinks so, but he's so poor in his preaching capacity that he cannot accommodate any other in his camp than him and Vinohe(?). I heard a story of Maharashtra. In old days, there was a good king who encouraged the paṇḍitas very much. And he had got in his assembly a scholar, one Balarāma. He always looked after this, that. No paṇḍita can have any entrance to that Mahārāja. And he professed himself to be, he is the biggest paṇḍita in the land. So once Kālidāsa... At the time of Kālidāsa. Kālidāsa, when he heard, then he found a plan. And went to that paṇḍita, that "I a poor brāhmaṇa. I want some, some sort of money from the king. You are all in..."
Prabhupāda: Recommend.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "Please recommend me." "Oh, yes. And then what sort of scholarship you have got? Do you..., can you compose any poem?" "Yes. I can." "Then do it." Then: uttiṣṭhottiṣṭha bhū-rājan mukhaṁ prakṣālaya atha, roditi na ghare kukurana vaidyuhi na vaidyo hi.(?) This stanza. What is the meaning? (laughs) The uttiṣṭhottiṣṭha rājan. "Oh King,..."
Prabhupāda: "Get up."
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "Wake up, wake up. Get up." bhū-rājan mukhaṁ prakṣālaya atha. "And..."
Prabhupāda: Wash up.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Poverty's not question.
Guest (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) They have no idea about Vedic... They are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta.
Guest (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama-tirtha... But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Rama-tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra. Is it not? Oṁkāra?
Guest (1): Hm. I think he is more on this karma-yoga. He believes that you should. Or... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (1): Your karma is actually the other secret of success or something like that.
Guest (2): There are so many. I think it is in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that...
Guest (1): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (1): No, (Hindi). First I went there...
Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehra Dun?
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest (1): (Hindi conversation for some time) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said,
"It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. (Hindi) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra. It doesn't matter. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Just like Śaṅkarācārya, (Hindi) First of all, you become sannyāsa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa. Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." So he's Dhruvānanda?
Prabhupāda: So why other jīvas should be left aside? Why they should not understand Kṛṣṇa. And actually, they are understanding Kṛṣṇa better than many Indians. They have taken very seriously. They do not put any competitor of Kṛṣṇa. Our Hindus, they put forward so many competitors of Kṛṣṇa: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be God? I have got my own God." Especially after the preaching of this Vivekananda, that "You can create your own God," it has become very simple business to create one God.
Guest: Well, then, that time, when Swami Vivekananda went to America, the country was not independent, not liberated. So at that time...
Prabhupāda: Who?
Guest: Swami Vivekananda, at that time...
Prabhupāda: No, who was not liberated?
Guest: This country of India. India was not liberated. So...
Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation?
Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation?
Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. At night they were guests. They were talking very friendly, and there is no enmity. But in daytime they'll fight. (laughter)
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. Gautama the Buddha, whom I follow, who is my teacher, a poor man came, and he found him panting, asked him, "Well, what's the trouble?" "Oh, I've got news that you're here. I want to see you." And the Buddha found that not only had he run... He asked him, "When did you last have a meal?" He said, "That's quite a few days ago." He said, "We cannot preach on empty stomachs. Ānanda, give this man a good meal before he could come to me." And this fine virtue of hospitality, much as we have treasured in the past, when people leave their shores, they are inclined to forget this. I've been addressing various groups. I do not confine myself to Buddhist groups only. Whatever group was interested, to foster some understanding, good will and peace, I addressed. I said three things that many people forget when they leave their countries are first, their serene smile; secondly, hospitality; thirdly, they become ashamed of their own cultures because many are strangers of their own cultures.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Buddhist Monk (1): I had last time an opportunity before coming to Southampton, I addressed some people from Śrī Laṅkā, and there were some people from Canada as well at Montreal. And I pointed this out. In this light, I find almost all the teachers that come from that part of the world and their followers are trying to live up to this noble virtue. And if people get together, live together and have meals, perhaps even that...
Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they have not been separately instructed about hospitality. But because they are devotees of the Lord, this hospitality automatically they learn. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly a devotee of the Lord, all the good qualities of demigods manifest automatically. The hospitality is also a good quality. So out of many good qualities, this is one of them.
Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they have not been separately instructed about hospitality. But because they are devotees of the Lord, this hospitality automatically they learn. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly a devotee of the Lord, all the good qualities of demigods manifest automatically. The hospitality is also a good quality. So out of many good qualities, this is one of them. So these devotees, they are automatically well-behaving to the guests, newcomers on account of their advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because a Kṛṣṇa conscious person takes everyone, not only human being, but even animals, insects, trees, birds, beasts, everyone, living entities, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. So it is their duty to behave well with all living entities. Not only the human beings, but also even with the animals. Ahiṁsā. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). The ahiṁsā preached by Lord Buddha, that is also one of the qualifications of devotee. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we are preaching... Every religion preaches, but people do not follow. The Christian religion also preaches ahiṁsā: "Thou shall not kill," but they do not follow.
Prabhupāda: Our..., this book, Nectar of Devotion, that is a study book in the Temple University, Philadelphia. Similarly, our Kṛṣṇa Book, and what other books? They are...? Especially Kṛṣṇa Book and Nectar of Devotion. Bhagavad-gītā also, As It Is. (pause) We consider Lord Buddha also as incarnation of God.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I know that. Of course, on this there's a difference of view between the orthodox Buddhists and that thinking. Because during the earlier days of Buddhist preaching there were certain differences of opinion. And the brāhmaṇa sections fell into various categories. Some of them were not very friendly, and others accepted quite a few of his, their teachings. And a third section, led by people like Sarikuta (?) and Munkali (?), Sanmukhala (?), they became followers as well. And, of course, so many things have been incorporated, kāma, krodha, lobha, kleśa, abhimāna. They are very similar to the teachings of the Buddha, and they are very progressive. Because lobha, lobha, lobha, lobha is at the root of our problems. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Tanhaya jayate soko, tanhaya jayate bhayak, tanhaya vipra mukta syat, nati soko ato bhayat. "Greed is the cause of suffering, greed is the cause of fear. Remove this greed: where is the suffering? Where is the fear?" And, of course, being tolerant and understanding, man being a bundle of habits and customs, we cannot eradicate all grief overnight. But certainly we can start reducing this greed. Reduce and reduce. And then that's the only way to purify the mind. And then ought show such a society where greed has been reduced will be relatively a peaceful society. Simple living, high thinking and high practice. That's the cornerstone of our philosophies. Multiplication of so many (indistinct), colonational output, flying to the moon and not going into one's mind, and producing these things and calling them (indistinct). What is...
Prabhupāda: Sometimes we find that peaceful living is visible even in animal society. Just like the cows. They're very peaceful. There are other animals, dogs and others. They fight. But hundreds and thousands of cows, they live very peacefully. Birds also... Just like the swans, they live very peacefully. So is that the highest goal of life, to live peacefully? Because that is also found in animal society. Is that the perfection of life?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. Jaya. (pause) You are from India? (Hindi—few sentences with guest) So we are therefore presenting Kṛṣṇa, the most delightful feature. So chanting and dancing before Kṛṣṇa, taking His prasādam, and practicing delightful nature, awakening the delightful consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So as this is taking practical shape, all these European, American boys, Canadian, African, they are becoming delightful, and with great delight, they are chanting, dancing and taking prasādam.
We cannot understand God by our present senses. So the senses are to be purified. And that purification begins: sevonmukha, by engaging the tongue, jihvādau, in the delightful activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So practically we are getting result. These boys, they were very morose, but now they are very delightful simply by following this method, engaging the tongue in the service of Kṛṣṇa. Tongue has got two business: tasting and chanting, vibrating. So they are vibrating harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21), and tasting Kṛṣṇa prasādam. And we are practically seeing that they are becoming delightful, living very happily, preaching all over the world. I started this movement alone in 1966, but these boys, inexperienced boys, having no spiritual training... They were trained up in their own ways, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, but they gave up all these habits and delightfully they are going any part of the world and preaching this cult, and we are meeting with success. It is not that I have gone every place. It is not possible. I am old man. So I give them direction. Just like this boy. He's a gṛhastha. So husband and wife, they are organizing in Germany. We have got four, five branches in Germany. We have published this record and so many books and literatures. So this Saṅkīrtana Movement, even though conducted by inexperienced young men, but they are creating delight to the masses.
Prabhupāda: The one thing is they take it. Others will not take it. That is the difference. If... There is a picture; my Guru Mahārāja has..., one man has fallen in a deep well, and he's crying "Save me!" So another man dropped a rope, that "You catch it. I shall carry you." Then he'll not catch it. Then how he can be drawn. So... (break) ...mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is nothing more superior than Me." We are preaching the same thing, that "You are searching after God. You are, some of you are disgusted that 'There is no God,' but here is God. You take His name. You take His address. You take His daily activities. Everything is there." And that is our mission. And we started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in 1966. So when I registered this society, somebody suggested that "Why not make it 'God consciousness?' " And no, I want to give definitely what is God. God, they have got different conception. But here is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the Vedic injunction. "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And when He was present, He proved it, that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have not introduced any new system of religion. That is not a fact. We have simply placed, administered, the same thing which was spoken five thousand years ago. That's all. Five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa said that "There is nothing, no more superior authority than Me." We are preaching the same thing. The same old thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You just surrender unto Me." Kṛṣṇa said that "Surrender unto Me," and we are speaking, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa;" same thing. Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). We are speaking the same thing, that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa. We are challenging the scientists also. They are of opinion that "Life has come from matter," and we are challenging, "No, life and matter, both have come from life." This is our challenge.
Prabhupāda: So I told him that "You have created your own god, Lenin. And we have got our own God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, the principle of accepting somebody as God is there, in your philosophy and in my philosophy. So that you cannot avoid. Your communistic philosophy cannot avoid the conception of God, the leader." Just like in Buddha philosophy also, there is the conception of God, of Lord Buddha.
Buddhist Monk (1): No. That's not correct. Because we do not treat the Buddha... In fact, when the Buddha preached his atheistic philosophy... That's why he was termed a nāstika, a wasala. We do not believe in a god. We say panya, wisdom, and dharmuddha, is an incompatible...
Prabhupāda: At least, you follow the leadership of Buddha.
Buddhist Monk (1): Leadership, that's correct.
Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle—to accept one leader and follow his leadership—is there everywhere. That nobody can change. That is not possible.
Guest (1): Yes. It is grace of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, after all, Kṛṣṇa's property. But it has come through George... (laughter)
Guest (1): He is lucky person.
Prabhupāda: I am coming, yes. (break) ...dehaṁ punar janma naiti. Such person, those who are fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, such person, after giving up this body, does not accept any more material body. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). "He comes to Me." So you cannot go to Kṛṣṇa unless you have your spiritual body. Because the spiritual world and Kṛṣṇa, they are all spiritual. So you cannot enter into fire unless you are fire. So you have to revive your spiritual body, spiritual consciousness. Then, after giving up this body, you enter the spiritual world. So Lord Buddha did not speak anything about the spiritual world, but his philosophy said that "Dismantle this material existence." Nirvāṇa. Nobody has preached that "You become happy here," either Lord Buddha or Lord Christ or Kṛṣṇa or anybody, Śaṅkara. Nobody. But modern materialistic people, they are thinking that "We can become happy by adjustment of our material condition." That is not possible.
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a devotee when he was only five years old. And his father was atheist number one. So there was a great misunderstanding between the father and the son. The father was insisting the son that "You give up this line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You become politician. You have to control over the kingdom and so on, so on..." But he could not give up. This is the misunderstanding between the father and the... So at, at the age of five years only, he was preaching. But how he was preaching? He was preaching... Because the father instructed the teachers, "Just look over this boy that he may not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Strictly. That is my order." So teachers were not allowing him. But he was taking opportunity in their tiffin hour.
Śyāmasundara: What?
Prabhupāda: Tiffin hour.
Śyāmasundara: Tiffin hour. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: What is...
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Recess. When the teachers gone and students are free to move. So he was calling his class friends and other, and he was preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: So... We call "tiffin hour" in India. Because we, we take some tiffin in the school, and we eat during that...
David Lawrence: Hm hm.
Prabhupāda: So he was preaching that kaumāra ācare... The other boys, they were insisting, "Prahlāda, why you are so much anxious about preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us play. It is our time to play." So "No, no." He said, "No, no. This is the time to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Because you are teaching, therefore...
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...I am relating. "That kaumāra age, from five years to fifteen years, that is the right age for educating Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is the word of... kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma (SB 7.6.1). He says that "This human form of body is very rarely gotten, and it is a rare opportunity for awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, is there in every human being, especially in civilized... So it is not an artificial thing. Just like my, all my students, they are Europeans, Americans. Four or five years ago, they did not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, neither they knew the name of Kṛṣṇa. But now you can see how they're absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is not an artificial thing.
Prabhupāda: So how such big men, minister, could accept such position of a mendicant and live...? Now, gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau... So they got a better thing. They dipped into the ocean of the gopīs' ecstasy. They were always thinking of the gopīs' activities with Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur, vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So unless one gets a better thing, he cannot give up the less important thing. So when, unless one gets that better thing—better humor, better mellow—they cannot give up these material engagements. Therefore, to get that better thing, it is advised that part of your hard labor you offer to Kṛṣṇa. This is called karma-yoga. You remain in your karma, but nirbandha, nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe, be touched with Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and spend at least fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. Then, gradually, you come to the... Just like the Gosvāmīs came. So this is the policy. Otherwise, for Kṛṣṇa conscious men there is no need. Everything Kṛṣṇa will supply. Mādhavendra Purī installed a Deity. Now, for months, years together, only festival was going on. (pause) And another good example is that if somebody is in business and if he spends for Kṛṣṇa, that is a very good example for the karmīs. Because everyone is not going to stop their karmī mentality. So this will be an example, that "You are engaged in material. Now spend like this." That is another preaching. Loka-saṅgraha. This is called loka-saṅgraha, to collect ordinary men for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Janaka-rāja, he was a king, but great saintly person.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: And the great moments of inspiration are those rare moments when you feel you belong to all of life, from the beginning of time, now, everywhere.
Prabhupāda: No, our preaching is also on that point, that God is one, and we are all sons of God. Call our paṇḍita. In the... I think you have read Bhagavad-gītā.
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There it is stated
Lord Kṛṣṇa says that there are different species of life, yoni. According to Padma Purāṇa there are eight million, four hundred thousand species of different forms of life. So Kṛṣṇa claims that "All these living entities, in different forms of life, I am the seed-giving father of all of them, and the material nature is the mother." Just like father impregnates with the seed, and the mother gives the body, similarly God impregnates material nature with all kinds of living entities, not in different forms, but the original seed. And according to one's karma, he comes out in different types of bodies. The body is given by material nature, and the life is given by God. This is the sum and substance. And therefore God is one, and He's the father of everyone. As such, without the center point, God consciousness, we cannot substantiate the ideas of universal brotherhood. Because if the center is missing, then how we can think of universal brotherhood? If we accept God is the center point, father, then I can understand you are my brother. Because you are also son of God; I am also son of God. But I am missing the father, then we miss also our mutual relationship.
Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement strictly on the basis of this Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, there is everything explained. So if people take to it, if people are educated, then things will change in a different way. They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life.
Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithyā. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up.
Reporter: But he was not in power or position.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva-rāja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter.
Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee.
Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation.
Reporter: Hm?
Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that...
Reporter: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya, even up to the point of death.
Reporter: Yes, true.
Prabhupāda: He's still living?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy?
Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma-vidyā. He's seeking brahma-vidyā. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya.
Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti.
Reporter: Ah?
Prabhupāda: Mukti.
Reporter: Mukti, yes.
Prabhupāda: Piśācī.
Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti-mukti-piśācī.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love.
Mother: Well, this is very good, sir, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument... Yes. Hmmm.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it.
Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like...
Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull.
Mother: What about your children? Where do they? Do they go to school?
Prabhupāda: Why not.
Mother: Are they edu...? Do they go to schools, your children?
Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school.
Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas, householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school.
Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point.
Mother: ...young men becoming cabbages.
Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get... Just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science.
Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys.
Prabhupāda: Why... Why you are asking? My boys are the same.
Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here?
Mother: Well, all, all, all...
Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor?
Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox...
Revatīnandana: No. No, no.
Mother: ...or typhoid, you... You know what smallpox is like in India.
Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division.
Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they suddenly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night engaged in preaching work.
Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too.
Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our centers we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles, you see... Just we have got recent photograph. Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education.
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination. He may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Mohammedan. "Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description,
If you actually want peace of your mind, then you must try, you must learn how to love God. So our preaching is... It doesn't matter, whatever religion you are following, it doesn't matter. If you have achieved this aim, how to love God, then your system is first-class. That's all. That is our question. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Bhakti, means love of God. How much you have learned to love God, that much we want to know. We don't say that "You are Christian, you become followers of Hindu rituals or Mohammedan rituals." No. You remain in your position, but just try to love God to the best of your capacity.
Bhagavān: The original thrower.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupāda: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupāda: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say that rascaldom. That word say.
Yogeśvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying.
Prabhupāda: Hm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies. They have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately?
Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach...
Prabhupāda: You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it and you'll see the reflection. Our process is paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. (break) ...śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi... (SB 1.2.17).
Prabhupāda: So why in the beginning stop? Why in the beginning they are requested to give it up? (break)
Yogeśvara: Rosicrucian order doesn't force anything, doesn't make you do anything. (break) ...people that join this organization, only seven succeed.
Prabhupāda: Then it cannot be preached among the mass of people.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Some people, when they just can't make it anymore, they just (indistinct) flip out. (?)
Yogeśvara: He says all movements experience the same thing.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: That out of one hundred people...
Prabhupāda: One hundred people..., but the ideal must be there. One may follow or not follow.
Yogeśvara: Their order doesn't reject anyone.
Prabhupāda: I think... Whether their order approves animal killing?
Yogeśvara: There are no restrictions. The order doesn't require.
Prabhupāda: Then let us stop here. No more questions. Waste time.
Yogeśvara: He doesn't like the idea of killing animals, and he has advised that to friends.
Prabhupāda: But what is the ideal of the order? That I am asking.
Prabhupāda: Then you have to make propaganda against that, that simply pushing two eyes... Anyone can push two eyes and there is natural some light. Is that the proof that he has become God? You are so foolish? And you say that God is, God has created the universe. So what he has created? What he has done, wonderful thing? That simply by pushing your eyes, you see some light, and you become God? You have become so foolish, European brain? You have no intelligence. Preach against him. What is the proof that he is God? Now, those who do not know anything about God, they can be convinced. Just like—what is called?—agnostic. The agnostic... Sometimes we say that there is a creator because everything, just we say, everything, whatever we have got in our experience, it is created. So this gigantic universe or one or many, there must be one creator. This is one hypothesis. So that creator, if I accept this man, whether he can create something, such wonderful? Has he done so? In this way, you have to make propaganda. So far our position is, we accept God, Kṛṣṇa, on the authority, as well as by the action, both. We, we make hypothesis that there must be a creator. Vedānta says: "Yes, there is a creator." And Kṛṣṇa says, He says: "I am the creator of everything." And when He was at, on this planet, He did so many wonderful things. And He is accepted by big, big stalwarts. Just like Arjuna accepts. He heard Bhagavad-gītā. So before that, Nārada accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Great... Later on, big, big ācāryas accept. So these are the proof. But what proof he can give that he's God, that we shall accept him God? Simply he shows some light. We have to make some propaganda.
Prabhupāda: So God could not... Kṛṣṇa says: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo... (BG 18.66). That God can, without dying Himself, He can immediately and, I mean to say, vanquish all sinful action. Why He should be killed for that purpose? Just like the Pūtanā gave Kṛṣṇa poison. But Pūtanā was killed. And Kṛṣṇa was never ki... Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed by poison. Even Kṛṣṇa's devotees are not killed by poison. Prahlāda Mahārāja. If we discuss in detail, we create animosities. Therefore we do not discuss because Christian religion is followed by large number. We do not wish to make... We say yes. He says: "Son of God." We accept it. That's all. To accept a person God, that requires great evidences from śāstra. Especially. And when he's present, He will prove the statement of the śāstra. Then we accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu, God. There are evidences... (break) You see. We don't allow anybody to pass on as God because we are presenting real God. We must make process. The real process is to kill him. But that much power we haven't got. We cannot do that. Otherwise, we would have done so. Nobody should be allowed to claim as God. And severe punishment for him. Kṛṣṇa has shown this example. (break) We explain two, three lines from Bhāgavatam. How much people appreciated. So we have to preach like that, the substance. Not the sentiment. But if we cannot, the saṅkīrtana is sufficient. (break) ...anumāna-pramāṇa. Anumāna, hypothesy, and pramāṇa, śāstra-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa. evidences from the Vedas. Evidences from authorized persons. And anumāna also. That is not good evidence. But even if you take anumāna, that if I make... This table is created by somebody. It is all right. But to find out that somebody is still further progress. Similarly, we have to accept that this gigantic universe... As I say that what is the purpose? If there is purpose, whose purpose? Who is acting? In this way, we have to make progress.
Prabhupāda: But not a single soul became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. There is no history. Yes. So far we know, that by reading Bhagavad-gītā, it is meant for making a person devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). But before my coming here, so many swamis came, and they preached on Bhagavad-gītā, so many scholars came, but not a single soul became a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Professor: Yes, because other... So, for instance, you have the Ramakrishna Mission...
Prabhupāda: What the Ramakrishna mission has done?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission has done this, that they have learned to drink wine and eat meat, that's all, from the Western countries. That's all.
Professor: Yes. This is so.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their contribution. And they have spoiled the Hindu culture.
Professor: Oh. Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because Vivekananda said, "Oh, what is the harm there, in eating? You can eat whatever you like. It doesn't matter in religion." It was the first. And he himself was eating anything. So all the Ramakrishna mission sannyāsīs still, they are eating meat, egg and everything, especially in America. Yes. Fish is no consideration. That is daily affair. And the turkey,... Yes. Instead of preaching here, they have taken the Western method. And Vivekananda's preaching is like Western missionaries-open hospitals, school...
Professor: You are right, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no spiritual knowledge. So therefore it has not been successful. They are preaching in the Western countries... As far I know, in America they have got ten or twelve branches. I am working for the last six years only. I have got already fifty branches. And each branch, there are devotees like them, not less than twenty-five, up to two hundred, three hundred, all dedicated souls.
Professor: And what about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi?
Prabhupāda: I don't take account of these because they are not standard.
Professor: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: They are not standard. We are following Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, standard, and they have got their own manufactured way. So we don't recognize them. Our process is evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā. What Kṛṣṇa said, the disciplic succession will say the same thing. But they are speaking differently. So therefore we don't take them as bona fide. They are not bona fide. And from external point of view, we have got so many literatures, so many branches, so many devotees, within six years. But they haven't got such thing. Even Ramakrishna Mission. They are working for the last eighty years. And I have worked only for six years. And my result is eighty times more than them. They also acknowledge.
Guest (1): I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching. That is spiritual life. That you act in such a way that you haven't got to change any more apartment. Suppose, take for example, we were living in rented house. Now George has given us this house. Now we haven't got to change. It is a crude example. We can live until our death. Similarly, so long you are in material existence, you have to change this body, different types of body. But if you become fit for spiritual existence, you get rid or get out of this entanglement of changing bodies. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching our people that "you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Live like that." (someone comes in) Come on. "Then you get permanent life."
Guest (1): And now, you did...
Prabhupāda: You can find out that verse, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya, yes (BG 4.9). I'll read one verse. You'll understand.
Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rāma, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rāma is a fact, Kṛṣṇa is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rāma, glories of Kṛṣṇa. He took the chanting of Rāma for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nāma-aparādha. Samaḥ śubha-kriyā mati pramāṇaḥ (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rāma. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,
Prabhupāda: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...
Guest (1): But not political post.
Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, that he did not. He took it, "Rāma" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rāma."
Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.
narottama-dāsa koy, nā ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy,
Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's singing, hari hari bifale janama goṅāinu: "My dear Lord, I have simply wasted my time. Bifale, without any profit. Because I got this human form of life, but I missed the opportunity for worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā." And by doing this, I have taken poison knowingly." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Then golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana." This nāma-saṅkīrtana is not any material thing. It is the ecstatic love of Kṛṣṇa in the Goloka Vṛndāvana."
golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana,
"But I have no attachment for this hari-kīrtana." Saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibā-niśi hiyā jwale: "My heart is always burning in material existence." Juḍāite nā koinu upāy: "But I did not make any means by which I can get out of it." Brajendra-nandana jei, śacī-suta hoilo sei: "Formerly the same Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who was, who appeared as the son of Nanda Mahārāja, He has again appeared as the son of Śacīdevī." And balarāma hoilo nitāi: "And Balarāma has appeared as Nityānanda Prabhu." So their business is: dīna-hīna jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, all sorts of sinful men, and materially suffering men, all of them have been delivered by these two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, by preaching the saṅkīrtana movement. Tāra śākṣī jagāi mādhāi: "They have delivered all kinds of sinful men. The evidence is Jagāi and Mādhāi." Hā hā prabhu nanda-suta, vṛṣabhānu-sutā-juta: "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, the son of Nanda Mahārāja, you are now standing with Rādhārāṇī, the daughter of King Vṛṣabhānu. So it is my appeal." Koruṇā karoho ei-bāro: "Kindly be kind upon me." Narottama-dāsa koy: "Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, 'Don't kick me out. I have no other shelter. Please take me.'
Prabhupāda: ...into Madras, Southern India. And you'll find also in our Caitanya Caritāmṛta... Now I am translating. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to Southern India, practically whole Southern India became Vaiṣṇava by His preaching.
Ambassador: It is a great period of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And all the ācāryas, they came from South India. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. I think Madhvācārya belonged to your province? Malaya?
Ambassador: No, Śaṅkarācārya came from...
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya.
Ambassador: From Kerala. Sir, I have got a question. I have not really been able to locate when exactly Rādhā entered Hindu mythology. Because the Bhāgavatam doesn't mention. They mention only rāsa-krīḍā as a... Before that, they were, before Gaurāṅga, Caitanya, did you, do you have rendered exactly the bhakti cult to take... The Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, I mean. They were generally the gopīs and...
Prabhupāda: Other ācāryas, they elevated people up to sākhya-rasa.
Ambassador: Sākhya-rasa.
Prabhupāda: It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us mādhurya-rasa.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Jesus, the son of God, he's representative of God. So we have got all respect and honor for him. We worship him. But I do not know what is about Jesus Movement.
Reporter (1): Tell me a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will you?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means the same, Bhagavad-gītā as it is, which was spoken five thousand years ago by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, we are preaching the same Bhagavad-gītā. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is accepted, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are preaching that "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa."
Reporter (1): Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness genuine?
Prabhupāda: Then we are simply wasting our time, do you think? By preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do you think we are wasting our time? We are so fools? Why do you ask this nonsense question, "genuine"? Unless it is genuine, why we are working so hard?
Reporter (1): Why is it so popular among young people?
Prabhupāda: Because they have got knowledge. Young people are receptive. Young people, education is given during youth time, not in old age. Old men cannot take any education. Whatever he has learned, he'll take another period of fifty years to forget that. Therefore sometimes it is called "old fools." But young men, they are receptive, they have got brain. When they understand that "Here is something," they understand.
Prabhupāda: ...here is a very nice, educated man. He's very nice. But we say, "No. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's as dangerous as if he is ordinary man." We don't give any credit. (break)
Acyutānanda: Which is more important, to go back to Godhead or spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Well, one who is preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's already back to Godhead. (break) ...īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā girā. Preacher means he has engaged his body, his mind, his speeches only to glorify the Lord. That is preacher. So anybody who's engaged that business, he's jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this life. (break) ...even if he's liberated. So why he should seek for liberation? He's already liberated. He's already back to Godhead. He's already with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is talking with him. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi... One who is actually preacher, engaged in Kṛṣṇa's glorification, service, he's already in Vaikuṇṭha. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Etad īśanam... It's just like Kṛṣṇa. If He comes within this material world, does it mean that he's in the material world? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's pure devotee, he's not in the material world. In the spiritual world.
Acyutānanda: Well, like sometimes the devotees are preaching, but they get feelings of getting entangled, so they want to...
Prabhupāda: That means it is not yet perfect preacher. He requires perfection.
Acyutānanda: So they argue with me or some other...
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of arguing.
Acyutānanda: No, they say, "Well, I want to fix myself up," and we want them to preach.
Prabhupāda: Preaching is our only business, preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching. Namaskāra. (break) That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. (break) In, in the practice, or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajanānandī.
Acyutānanda: What about those who are preaching, but imperfectly, and those who are...?
Prabhupāda: Even it is imperfect...
Acyutānanda: It's better than just sitting.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa will help us. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). How he can be imperfect? Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's not imperfect.
Guest (1): Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Kṛṣṇa. And unless one is confidential devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect, confidential servitor, Kṛṣṇa speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. (break) If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Kṛṣṇa," then you are imperfect. Is that...? (break) "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation. So 'ham. So they are rascals. And how you can become the Supreme? As soon as you have got a toothache, you have to go to the doctor. And he was thinking he was supreme, nonsense. Rascal. (break) ...bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. These are Māyāvādīs, those who are after, "I am the Supreme." They are Māyāvādīs. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Anyone who hears the philosophy of Māyāvāda, he is doomed. He is gone." (break) ...teaching, "Why you are seeking after God?" Just like Vivekananda taught, "Oh, why you are seeking after God? Don't you see so many gods are on the street? They are hungry. They are lame. They are daridra-nārāyaṇa. Why don't you worship them?" This is Māyāvādī. So if we take Vivekananda's version, and be engaged in the service of the daridra-nārāyaṇa, then I am misled. (break) ...preaching this daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā for hundreds of years, at least one hundred years, but still, there are daridras. Even in the city like Bombay, still. Fifty years ago, I came. I saw there are the residents of the footpath, having a small... Eh?
Guest (2): So they're representatives?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're... Just like Lord Buddha. We accept him as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But he preached, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no God. I don't care for the Vedas."
Guest (2): He's flaunting the authority of...
Prabhupāda: No, he is authority himself. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He's personally Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): Does he say so, or you...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sometimes he has to say so.
Guest (2): And he's allowed to say so.
Prabhupāda: That is... Just like...
Guest (2): Is he allowed to say so?
Prabhupāda: No, no. He is the Supreme, He can say. Just like a father cheats sometimes the son. The son has taken from the pocket of the father one hundred rupees' note. He's not separate. The father takes one lozenges, two paise worth. "Oh, my dear son, you can take it, very nice. You give me that." "Ah yes." It is not cheating? He's giving two paise worth lozenges, and taking hundred rupees' note. Is it not cheating? This is cheating. But father is cheating; therefore it is good. You cannot imitate father and cheat others. Father can do anything for the welfare of the son. That is another thing. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa appears as a cheater, the atheist class of men and Lord Buddha say, "No, no, there is no God. Yes, it is all right. You are right. But you hear me." "Yes, sir, we shall hear you." But he's God. This is cheating.
Guest (1): Was he preaching karma-kāṇḍa?
Prabhupāda: He said that there is no God, but he's God. Just like the policeman sometimes cheats. He goes as a gambler, but he's a policeman. So that is another thing. Therefore if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you understand all these different activities. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. And you become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. If anyone understands what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what His activity is, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, you, after giving up this body, you haven't got to come again in this material world. Simply by studying Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are preaching, "Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...life is meant for to possess complete knowledge of the Supreme. That is perfection of knowledge. That is possible in the human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. That is not possible. So we have got this opportunity. If we spoil this life, living like cats and dogs, then we are missing the opportunity. This is the opportunity to understand Kṛṣṇa, God.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons. So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." You know this word, "churchianity?" You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh mission. Vivekananda has given preached, Yata mata tata patha, Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers.
Prabhupāda: Office means their business is office. But your business is begging. Your business is not office. Your business is not... They have to direct so many things from there. That we can do. Besides that... Anyway, even they have got office, they come from in Bombay, Calcutta, even from hundred miles away. So if there is no such program, Deity worship, regulative principles, then it will be a joint mess. Hotel. Transcendental hotel. And transcendental fraud. This will go on. The business will be transcendental fraud, and life will be transcendental hotel. (Break) ...twenty, twenty-five. So these women devotees, they are given cāpāṭis by the bābājīs. Kṣurasya dhārā. Actually it is like that. A sharpened razor, A little inattention, immediately blood. Kṣurasya dhārā niśitā duratyayā durgaṁ pathas tat kavayo vadanti (?). That is the risk. Nowadays modern civilization, as we are accepting, there is jeep, there is telephone, everything is there. One can conduct his activities from anywhere.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it didn't work last time. They stopped their preaching. The last time everyone moved to Juhu, they completely lost contact with all the life members in the city because they found it very difficult to continuously go back and forth.
Prabhupāda: So keep it just like a temple. Not that...
Acyutānanda: Nepeansea Road downtown, it should be kept like a temple?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The temple routine work must go there.
Prabhupāda: All these things are, they are simply māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). "These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification." That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-dhāma. Hlādinī, sandhinī, saṁvit. Perverted in this material life. Āhlāda-tapa-kārī miśrayate tair na guṇa-varjite (?). Here āhlāda, pleasure and tapa-kārī, pain, and mixture of āhlāda. This is the position. Tair na guṇa-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for... This is our mission, to teach that "You are simply wasting your time. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member... They are misunderstanding, "They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got..." They are thinking like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should preach strongly and they should know that we also preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they should know that it is for their benefit we are making them life members, not for our benefit. And that should be the motive.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should give with that motive.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we should deal with them so that they may develop their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you simply make it a point, somehow or other take some money from them and let them go to hell, that is not... That is transcendental fraud. What do you think, Gargamuni?
Gargamuni: Yes. We have to preach. (S.P. laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. If by the dress of sannyāsī, you take some money and eat and sleep, then it is transcendental fraud. (SP laughs) (Hindi) Just like others are toiling, and we are getting money by some dress. That's all. They are getting money by laboring hard, and we are getting money... In India, mostly the sannyāsīs, they do that. The priests also, they do that. This is our profession, just... My Guru Mahārāja said that ṭhākura dekhiye pāya rasta karache, rastaye 'yandiya jīvika badram karam bhari (?). Instead of earning livelihood by showing the Deity in the temple, it is better to take the profession of a sweeper in the street and live honestly. He said like that. The sweeper is working hard toiling and getting some money and living. This is honest living. But just like in Vṛndāvana, all the Goswamis. They have got their Deity. People are coming, contributing. Typical example, Gauracānda Goswami. Ṭhākura dekhiye paisa rasta. (?) All the sevaites, they are meant for... Our Kunja Babu also planned like that. He thought, "By cheating all the God-brothers, I have got now Caitanya Maṭha. And people will come to see Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace, and I will get good income. And it will be distributed amongst my brothers and sons and myself. That's all." That is his scheme.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult.
Śyāmasundara: No controversy. And this...
Prabhupāda: No, that, "If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, naturally everything will be correct." Just like Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja was Kṛṣṇa conscious. And can, you can read the portion during the reign of Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, how nature was helping. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa. You keep one set of books here. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). "Due to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything was going on nicely. So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you are on the post of Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. So if you take standard, it will be good for everyone. And so far secular state is concerned, we are actually secular. In this movement, all classes of men are here."
Śyāmasundara: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you'll have to preach to her. Because she won't listen to... If I can just get her to agree to be the chief guest.
Prabhupāda: And accept the book. That is all right.
Śyāmasundara: That's all I can do.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: If you preach to her, she'll listen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. yes.
Śyāmasundara: But she won't listen if I preach to her.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not possible. That I know. You simply try to...
Śyāmasundara: Induce her to come.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to join us at least one day.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And accept the book, read it, at least the introductory portion, preface portion.
Śyāmasundara: I can show her politically how it would be advantageous for her to come. That much I can do.
Prabhupāda: I, I... I don't think you should advise him, her...
Śyāmasundara: I mean I don't need to really.
Prabhupāda: ...about politics.
Śyāmasundara: Maybe that is my case also.
Prabhupāda: That is special favor. In the beginning I was thinking, "Now my godbrothers, they have taken sannyāsa. They are begging from door to door. Why shall I beg? Let me earn money and start Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But that never happened. So I had to... I was obliged to take the dress of my godbrothers and preach, instead of earning money. Yes. Some astrologer told me that I should have been a man like a Birla. And I got all those chances in the chemical line, to become... Now I am bigger than Birla. That's all right. But even in business field, there were signs that in money things... I got so many good chances. But everything... Dr. Kartika Candra Bose he appreciated my activities, "Very intelligent boy." He certified to my father-in-law. This is the way of becoming rich man.
Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī, that, "Learn Sanskrit then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away, you go away from this place."
Guest: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: So he supposed.... I went to preach in the Western countries. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇavas? It is a training, it is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit, otherwise you cannot become..."
Guest: It is good to learn as many languages as you can, but if not that doesn't matter anything.
Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from this book only. A Sanskrit scholar is different, he learns grammar 14 years.
Guest: A waste of time, a waste of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see?
Guest: (indistinct) greatest Romanian poet and he studies Sanskrit and (indistinct) he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Government is always with you, but why you are suffering, and why one is enjoying? Government is not partial. You have created your situation to suffer. That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." But you will not do. You must suffer. Suffering is there. As soon as you are disobedient to God, immediately suffering begins. That is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Now you give up all this nonsense business. Surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." That you will not do. Then you must suffer. That is the song:
That is our preaching, that "Why you are suffering? Just accept Kṛṣṇa; you will become happy." That is our preaching. So long you are under the clutches of... (end)
Prabhupāda: Spiritual spark is not carried by, but he resides within the body. He is carried by his own karma, subtle, subtle desire is carried. Everyone is carried by his desire. Why did I come here, in America? I have got a desire to preach; therefore I've come. Otherwise I had no business to come here. So desire. So desire carries you. That is, the rascals, they do not know. Desire is there, they cannot see, but desire is there. Mind is there, intelligence is there; they cannot see. That is carried. The example is given, just like the aroma of a flower is being carried by the air. And nobody can see, but one can feel, "Oh, it is very good, nice aroma. Wherefrom it is coming?" But he has no eyes to see either the aroma or the air. Similarly, the soul after destruction of this body is being carried by the desire, but they have no eyes to see what is that desire, what is that soul, what is that intelligence. They are saying, "There is no soul." This is mostly stupidity.
Devotee (2): ...we have to defeat them by prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have to show them mercy. It is not a question of defeat. Just like a diseased person is talking nonsense, so doctors takes care, "All right, go on talking nonsense. Take this medicine." (devotees laugh) That is hospitalization.
Yaśomatīnandana: They're already defeated.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, already defeated by nature. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. That is stated, apahṛta-jñāna. Māyā is taking their all knowledge, and because māyā is taking their all knowledge, the preaching is required. (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: So why wouldn't, why couldn't they accept that such simple thing?
Prabhupāda: They're not wise. Mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). Because they always engage in sinful activities. These are the sym..., cause of their disease. They're sinful, they're rascal, lowest of the mankind, and whatever knowledge they are proud of, that is māyā, and the basic principle is they're asuras, atheists.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Devotee: Demons.
Yaśomatīnandana: That's due to love for Kṛṣṇa. That's not a grudge against demons.
Devotee (2): A devotee also is merciful to the demons.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not envious of the demons. Otherwise there is no need of preaching. We are trying to make the demons perfect. That is our preaching.
Devotee: Compassionate.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Yes. Compassion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are preaching that the human form of life is the most important form of any living entities.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That human form of life...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Who...! Where it is said sannyāsī should live alone?
Hṛdayānanda: I mean, sometimes in your books.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes in your books. So that means with devotees.
Prabhupāda: In general, sannyāsī may live alone. But sannyāsī's duty is to preach.
Sudāmā: That I don't ever want to stop.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Sudāmā: I don't ever want to stop preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, preaching, you cannot manufacture preaching. You must do preaching according to the principles ordered by your spiritual master. You cannot manufacture your own way of preaching. That is required. There must be some leader. Under the leadership. Yasya prasādād bhagavat... Why it is said? Everywhere, in the office, there is some immediate boss. So you have to please him. That is service. Suppose in office, in a department there is office superintendent. And if you do in your own way, "Yes, I'm doing my business," and the office superintendent is not pleased, do you think that kind of service is nice? No. Similarly, we have got, everywhere we have got immediate boss. So we must work. That is systematic. If everyone manufactures, invents his own way of life, then there must be chaos.
Devotee: It's not a badge. It's the only sweater I...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Yesterday I received one letter from Rūpānuga Mahārāja. He's preaching very nice. Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: Rūpānuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: There have been several people here in Los Angeles...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: ...that have wanted to meet you. A councilman, a councilman here in Los Angeles would like to meet you, a city councilman.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. He's welcome.
Umāpati: That is the mystical process of this movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So that their heart may be cleansed and they can understand. And if I sit down in a solitary place, for my benefit, that may be his benefit, but it is not very high class engagement. He must sacrifice for others. Pararthe prag utsri, utsri(?). That is the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's moral instruction, that "Everyone should sacrifice for the Supreme." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is God Himself. He comes down to preach, to become sannyāsī, and to take so much trouble all over India and everywhere, and giving instruction and sending men, "Go, go, go, go." What? Why you...? He's perfect. Why He's coming? He doesn't require. No. For the benefit of others, we must follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (aside:) That's all right. Why water is here?
Karandhara: I don't know, Prabhupāda. It's a low spot.
Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava's first qualification that he's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Vaiṣṇava cannot be unhappy. That Prahlāda Mahārāja says, that "I have no problem. I am unhappy seeing these people who are simply engaged in false activities and they do not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore I am unhappy." This is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. Not that "I am saved. That's all right." That is materialism. "Let others go to hell. I am saved." That is materialism. A Vaiṣṇava should think always, "Oh, so many people are suffering. What I am doing for them?" That is Vaiṣṇava. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll become devotee, just like George is becoming devotee. So if somebody comes in our touch and if he is sincere, he'll become devotee. Now this, I shall go this way?
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prajāpati: So therefore, because we're not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prajāpati: ...It always has been.
Prabhupāda: Our, this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post it is all right. If we don't get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Kṛṣṇa. He came to preach, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process.
Prajāpati: ...fear this condition is hopeless.
Prabhupāda: No, not at all. You simply expose these rascals, and everything hopeful. You have to know how to expose these rascals. That's all.
Hṛdayānanda: So the more we preach and chant, the more we become purified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to become powerful spiritually. Then you'll be able. If you remain weak and manufacture your own way, then it will not be possible.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Jaya. (break)
Prajāpati: ...think the strength is our own, though.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prajāpati: We should not think that this is our own strength.
Prabhupāda: No. We have to work by the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. He'll give, supply the strength. Or, in other words, you have already got the strength. You have to revive it. That's all. Actually, that is the position. As spiritual spark, we have got immense strength. But we are now identifying with this body. (break) ...hill. It was formerly very high. Now why it has gone down? This hill?
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, rocks.
Prabhupāda: I say that they are not Christian. They're all atheists. Christians, one who is actually Christian, he's good. But they are not Christians. They do not believe in Christ. Neither in his words. So what kind of Christian they are?
Hṛdayānanda: They're such rascals that some of the young student so-called Christians, they even preach that.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, any Hindus, so-called Hindu, if he does not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, what kind of Hindu he is? He's a rascal. He's a rascal.
Prajāpati: In days gone by, there were pious Christians who tried to follow in the footsteps of saintly persons, but there are no more...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Christians must be always pious.
Prajāpati: There are no more...
Prabhupāda: There cannot be impious Christian or pious Christian. Christian must be pious. If somebody's impious, then he's not Christian. (break) ...impious thief cannot be. Thief is always impious. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21).
So in this way people gave them some contribution. That is their livelihood. So this... All the systems were made very easy on account of this Vedic injunction. So therefore we take Vedic knowledge as perfect, and we understand everything by Vedic knowledge about God, about His place, about His activities. And God comes as incarnation. He sends His representative. Then it is corroborated. And that is perfect knowledge of God. Kṛṣṇa's, God's feature—everything is described in the Vedas: Brahma-saṁhitā, Yajur-veda, Sāma-veda, like that. And when Kṛṣṇa descends, He practically demonstrates all the symptoms of God. So then we accept God. And it is confirmed by authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa Himself says that "I am the Supreme." Arjuna accepts, the direct listener from God. And later on, the ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, who control the society, just Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they accept. Latest, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He accepts. So our guru-paramparā all accepts Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself. So where is the difficulty to understand God? The symptoms are there in the śāstras. And those symptoms are visible in Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone can understand, "God is all powerful." So Kṛṣṇa showed that He is all powerful. So there is no difficulty to understand. So our method is easy. Instead of intellectual gymnastic, we take it very easily. And that acts. Now, so far our Society is concerned, we accept Kṛṣṇa as God. We're preaching Kṛṣṇa as God. So we have no difficulty. It is acting practically. So we... I may be Indian, Hindu, I may accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Maybe superstition, you may say. But why these European, Americans, Africans, they are accepting? And within very short time. Even Christian priests, they are astonished that "These boys, our boys, they did not care for God, never came to church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God?" They have not become mad. They are quite sane, educated. But why they are accepting Kṛṣṇa as God? Ask any one of them, they'll give explanation. And how it has become possible? Because they have accepted the method. So our guru's business is to teach him the method.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Sudāmā: Now you have told us to first of all surrender. So as your students, we are trying to hear in that way. Now when we go and preach and we tell, if we tell a man, "First of all, you surrender before you'll be able to understand," then what, what question is there of preaching?
Prabhupāda: They have already surrendered. They have already surrendered. When they have come to hear you, that is a symptom of surrender. Otherwise, why does he waste his time? There is, little bit, surrender. Full surrender and partial surrender. When one agrees to hear you, that is partial surrender.
Sudāmā: Even there may be some argument, but we must be fixed up enough to convince him to surrender more.
Prabhupāda: Actually, at the present age, nobody is interested in spiritual subject matter. Nobody is interested. So nobody is coming to surrender to you. Therefore you have to canvass, "Please surrender. Please surrender." This is our position. Otherwise, the... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One should come to the guru. But nobody comes to the guru, therefore guru has to come to U.S.A. to canvass. This is the position. Nobody went to me in India, but I had to come here to canvass you. Because it is Kali-yuga. Real process is one should go to the guru. But intelligent man goes: "My life is meant for spiritual realization. So I must find out a guru." That is his business, but people are so fallen in this age that nobody's interested in that subject matter, that he has got a spiritual value and he has to achieve this knowledge and make his life perfect. Nobody knows it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught preaching. These rascals, they are so fallen, they'll never search out guru. So guru should go and canvass.
Prabhupāda: I may be whatever it is. That is the business.
Govardhana: You are so kind that your books are attracting so many. They have the same potency as yourself. Your canvassing is so effective, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us... Even Nityānanda Prabhu, Haridāsa Ṭhākura, they were sent: "Go and preach. Go door-to-door. Teach them Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu Personally did it. So our mission is like that. People are so rascal that they'll never come to guru and surrender. Manda. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are so much embarrassed with these material calamities. Upadrutāḥ. Upadrava means disturbances. And manda: by nature very rascal. And sumanda. If there is, there is little intention, they goes to this, what is called, this boy?
Devotees: Guru Maharaji?
Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja, Dr. Mishra, and this and that, they'll go. They'll not go to the real person. The real person is strict. Suppose somebody comes here, if he comes to me. I shall immediately order, "You have to do this." But these rascals, they do not say that. They (say), "You pay me, and you become perfect." That is their proposal. So your money is very cheap. They pay and flock together. That is going on. That is called sumanda-mataya, misled. Manda, by nature they are rascals, and if they take some path, that is sumanda-mataya, again rascaldom. Why? Manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate, disturbed. They cannot find out. Therefore real guru has to canvass. This is the position. Shortage, alpāyus, they are not going to live for many years, and most of them are unfortunate rascals, and if they are eager to accept a guru, they accept a false guru, and they are materially disturbed. This is the position of the people of this age. So against so many disturbances and counter-facts, we have to preach.
Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless. That is going on. It is a regular policy that girls may remain unmarried, and the drunkards and the meat-eaters may take advantage of the prostitution. This is the policy. They have no sympathy. So many hundreds and thousands of innocent girls, they're like children. And they're exposed to prostitution. They have no shelter. Now these girls who are with us, they're feeling some shelter, you see? That we are giving some shelter. Everything should be reformed, political, social, and be, you American nation—you're favored nation, that I am always speaking; you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect—and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got? So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leaders. (break) Rascal. Sentimental. Be yourself leader. (break) ...you give up all this material advancement. But there must be Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is waste of time. Live very comfortably, gentlemanly. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You live like wretched urchins." Kṛṣṇa never says that. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. And this was practically introduced by my Guru Mahārāja, that living in palatial building and riding on first-class cars, one can become the best devotee. Not that one has to live underneath a tree, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī. That is not possible in this age. That is the continuation of my Guru Mahārāja, that if one is sincere he can remain a first-class devotee even in this material opulence. And if he would not have introduced, then it was not possible to come here and preach this gospel.
Prabhupāda: ...because you're most important. Now you must... Under my guidance you must be real important, not false important.
Hṛdayānanda: So perhaps I should stay here then and preach.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Hṛdayānanda: If it is so important, I think perhaps I should stay here and help Rūpānuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and you trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust. Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man..." Yes, I can trust. But simply trust in God, you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say?
Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian?
Devotee (1): They say that it represents...
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human beings?
Hṛdayānanda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: No, no, every common man he says "I got my mathematics." Will he be accepted?
Hṛdayānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: So why these things should be allowed? That is our proposition. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will he be allowed? So we have to fight, otherwise what is the meaning of preaching?
Hṛdayānanda: Fight.
Prabhupāda: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then what is the necessity of preaching?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya!
Prabhupāda: And propaganda.
Prabhupāda: You must know that they are all rascals. That I said, rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That is preaching. What do you expect that every man will immediately go and he'll agree with you? Why do you expect like that? That is foolishness.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya!
Prabhupāda: You must know that everybody will disagree with you, and it is your preaching work that you will make him agree with you. That is your preaching work.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda! As your example.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not expect that everyone will agree. Everybody will disagree. Just like our book. Say, four, five years ago, nobody knew these books. So there was no market. But we have created our market. That is preaching. We have created our market. Nobody was dying for want of these books. So that is preaching. Preaching does not mean everyone is ready to accept your theories. You must expect that everyone will not accept it. Now it is your power to convince him, "Yes, you must accept." That is preaching.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they won't accept it, although it is fact. Although it is fact. But they will not accept it. Therefore preaching is required, education required, to bring him into sense. This is fact. This portion of the ocean does not belong to any nation or any person; it belongs to God. This moon belongs to God, the sky belongs to God. But they're thinking, "It is mine." And therefore there is trouble. Just like government. The Senate is there, so they sit down together, and if there is any problem they discuss together to find out the solution. Similarly, they have got this United Nation. Why do they not consider, "First of all let us settle to whom this planet belongs"?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Nobody believes in God. That is our proposition. Nobody believes... All this bogus. Now they should come to understand what is God. This, in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody believes, neither know what is God. Here we are giving the name, the address, the form, the activities, everything of God—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let all the Arabians, all the Americans, let come to us. Those who are chief men, intelligent man, we shall convince them. That is our preaching.
Karandhara: There's one Arab leader, he goes to the temple five times a day, he doesn't eat meat, er, doesn't drink liquor or smoke or go out with women...
Prabhupāda: Yes, these are, these are prohibited in Muhammadan villages.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But still it is good. To some extent, he's advanced.
Karandhara: He doesn't allow any liquor shops or tobacco shops in this country.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's good.
Prabhupāda: That means western people are all demons.
Umāpati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that "We stand for this," and to have anybody vote for you.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nobody may vote but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does it mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that "People are illiterate. They don't care for it. Therefore let the university be closed." This is no argument.
Yaśomatīnandana: Gradually they will develop attraction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have to work. That is preaching. You don't think preaching is so easy going. Eating, sleeping, and sometimes chanting, "Haribol," that's all. That is not preaching. We must be ready to implant Kṛṣṇa consciousness ideas, throughout the whole world.
Prabhupāda: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate. Arcā means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, but he does not know anything more, who is devotee, who is nondevotee, what is the duty to the world, sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement. Then you become madhyama-adhikārī. Madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now... Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will be all closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you'll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close.
Prajāpati: They can show no good result for their activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is preaching. Therefore we are writing so many books. Unless we take care of the books and preach and read ourself, understand the philosophy, this Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within few years. Because there will be no life. How long one can artificially go on, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol!" That will be artificial, no life.
Yaśomatīnandana: That's right Prabhupāda. We are so foolish, we never realize anything unless you tell us like that. Without preaching...
Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well-conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing.
Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion.
Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those...
Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: When you came to the western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful I think. But actually, it has become very successful, by preaching.
Prabhupāda: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, what to speak of others, but because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals change, you take the advantage of it, that "You cannot change. Then you become demons, you (are) animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals." That should be the people's voice. Educate people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and they will yell, "No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men." That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, "Yes, what we are speaking is all right." That is preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually, when they formed the country and made the constitution, the concept was they were basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the...
Prabhupāda: So what does...? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching, actual, what is religion. Religion means... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam: (BG 18.66) "Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me." So who is a sane man who will deny, "No, I don't surrender to God"? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that "I don't like God, I don't like to surrender unto Him," then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very... Just like a prisoner. He is already surrendered to the government. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." This is the position.
Prajāpati: In the early days of this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New York, devotees said they did not know how to treat Your Divine Grace. They did not know your exalted position. I think we are still very much offensive.
Prabhupāda: No, I am servant. I have no exalted position. Servant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sat down in a place where people were washing their feet. Yes. (break) ...a representative of Kṛṣṇa. I came to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa has sent so many representatives to help me. I consider like that. Without your help I could not do. So I wanted Kṛṣṇa's help, so Kṛṣṇa has sent you. Therefore you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. That is my conception.
Prajāpati: We're just dogs, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prajāpati: Barking at your feet, that's all.
Prabhupāda: That is your humbleness. That is nice.
Prajāpati: Not humbleness. That's fact.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is not like that, but we can say, wherever Kṛṣṇa topics are there, it is as good as Vaikuṇṭha or Vṛndāvana. (break) ...prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. By association, bodhayantaḥ parasparam. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) ...enjoy and be satisfied in the association of devotees. (break) ...article on the subject of "Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist," and let us publish it. That article is very nice. If he writes such articles, the conclusion, if Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme economist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme philosopher, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme chemist, Kṛṣṇa—everything, the conclusion is Supreme, Kṛṣṇa—then his activity is fulfilled. He becomes successful. The conclusion should be Kṛṣṇa. That's it. Whatever he may be. He may be a musician, he may be artist, he may be physicist, he may be chemist, he may be scientist—whatever he may be, if he writes article on the subject matter and concludes that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then preach, then he is successful. That's all. Just like you are theologian. You write theology and prove, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." Then your attempt is successful. (break) We are trying to understand the Supreme, so therefore, as soon as you come to the Supreme, you are successful. (break) ...uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. This is success. With your talent, you simply come to the conclusion that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. That's all. So our business is, because we are neither scientist nor musician, nothing of the sort, layman, we have simply said, "Kṛṣṇa Supreme." That's all. Never mind what I am. (break) ...janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate.
Prabhupāda: The same way. Bodily suffering. Infection. The spiritual master accepts the all infection. So as the infection acts on the body, so there is little suffering. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa says, "All the sinful reaction of the surrendered soul..." So spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So he has also to accept. (break) ...the injunction is one should not accept many disciples. But for preaching work we have to do that. (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to finish my thesis, so I won't be able to come every day in the morning.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do your duty. (break)
Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm so sorry that you have to suffer cause we're such rascals.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I'll not suffer.
Karandhara: Then don't be rascals.
Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) (in the car:)
Rūpānuga: ...comes in contact with the so-called matter, is that false ego?
Prabhupāda: No, consciousness is spread all over the body. And due to the false ego... (break)
Rūpānuga: How big is the material atom?
Prabhupāda: There is measurement.
Prajāpati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful."
Śrutakīrti: You said to me in the garden the other day that there are two kind of ignorant people. One is ignorant innocent and the other is rascal ignorant, and that we should preach to the innocent. But all these politicians, they are not innocent, they are rascal.
Prabhupāda: They are rascal. They are rascal. Maybe some of them are innocent also. But mostly they are rascal because without being first-class rascal, one cannot go into politics. Just like if somebody says... Now, election. Somebody says that "You become vice-president." So why shall I become vice-president? Because I know I shall not be able to do anything. So why shall I waste my time? So another rascal, he will be ready. "Oh, offering vice-president?" But I know that if I want to manage the state, I have to make the people sinless. So if I propose that "Stop this slaughterhouse," so who will accept me? So why shall I go there? Nobody will accept me. Senate, senators, they will say, "Oh, this is business. This is impractical. You have no experience." He will immediately reject. So therefore mass of people must be conscious what is God, what is sin. So when they will be prepared, these rascals will be changed.
Prabhupāda: And they could not sell their magazine.
Hṛdayānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) So just imagine where is light. In our side or their side? They are deprecating, "Bhagavad-gītā is now old. We require new knowledge." Still, we sold thousand copies.
Hṛdayānanda: Finally the Guru Maharaji said over the microphone, "Don't buy more of these Bhagavad-gītās." (laughter) He said it's not bona fide. I told Prabhupāda that when the devotees had a big kīrtana, all the people...
Prabhupāda: So what was the result, stopped?
Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, after that it was more difficult. After that, the devotees were preaching more to individuals. But that was already after a thousand Gītās had been sold. Everyone left their meeting and went out to see the kīrtana. They had to keep calling them back, over and over again, "Please, please come back." (end)
Jagajjīvana: Yeah, there is a chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, Second chapter is done. It hasn't been distributed yet until February. We are two blocks away from a college. It has 32,000 students, and we go there every day and chant and the Communists come and we start preaching to them.
Prabhupāda: Communists? Students are under Communistic? What the Communists preaches? There is no God?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. And that in this life you can become perfect. There can be a perfect man without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah, so who has become that perfect man? Amongst your Communists? The Stalin is considered the greatest criminal in the world, in the history, Stalin. So how he is perfect man? If he is the greatest criminal?
Jagajjīvana: (break) Mostly Spanish countries. (break) Another town in Puerto Rico we have a center there also.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Jagajjīvana: That is on the other side of the island, on Puerto Rico.
Prabhupāda: Rūpānuga Mahārāja went there?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. And...
Prabhupāda: He can speak in Spanish?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: (break) ...will be overthrown and replaced with God conscious beings.
Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot find good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here (are) not starving.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They want to be cheated. That's all.
Bahulāśva: Just like now is the gasoline problem. Now the scientists want to use sun energy. They want to make a new energy, solar energy, from the sun.
Prabhupāda: That is another bluff.
Bahulāśva: We were preaching in Mexico that "You simply perform the saṅkīrtana-yajña and Kṛṣṇa will supply all energy."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the source of all energy.
Karandhara: Most economists, they realize that the economy is very faulty and superficial, but they say, "Well, that's the way it is. So I'm going to take advantage of it while I can."
Prabhupāda: Why not take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and try it? As you are trying so many method, why not try this?
Viṣṇujana: They say, "We want to regress and become like India." If everyone becomes devotees, then they'll all walk around like us and regress.
Prabhupāda: There is no devotee in India, real devotee, at the present moment.
| Page Title: | Preaching (Conversations 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 02 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=109, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 109 |