Prabhupāda: Varieties is there. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life. But he's packed up in this material world. That freedom... He's asking for freedom, but he does not know the freedom is the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That he'll not accept. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has arranged so many varieties. In disgust the Māyāvādīs, they want to make the varieties variety-less, nirviśeṣa. And the Buddhists they want to make it zero. But that is also not possible. Remain zero for some time. Again he will want varieties. Big, big Māyāvādī sannyāsī, they preach so much brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, but again they come to the political work, social work. Simply remain as brahma, "I am brahma," you cannot remain for many days. Then he has to accept these material varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment, so therefore our proposition is "Come to the real variety, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then your life will be successful."
Political (Conversations 1974 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities.
Prajāpati: (break) ...from Rūpānuga Mahārāja stating that six devotees around the country now will be running for political offices, hopefully just to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness into the political arena.
Prabhupāda: He is one of them?
Prajāpati: No, no. Not Rūpānuga Mahārāja. I am one of them in this area, here.
Prabhupāda: So which post you are going to contest?
Prajāpati: United States Congress.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Senator?
Prajāpati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is taking a chance to educate people.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We may not be successful in the beginning, but it is a good way of preaching, exposing to the general mass.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Nara-nārāyaṇa: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically?
Prabhupāda: No. We should preach that "Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating." Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem.
Dr. Patel: Not even... Philosophy also. Gaurapāda,(?) the grandson of Śaṅkarapāda. Gaurapāda, Gaurapāda was, he's Govindapāda and Govindapāda is Śaṅkarācārya. So that also you will see that some Śaṅkara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman.
Prabhupāda: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician.
Dr. Patel: Great politician. He was a humanist also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but he left. "This is no good." I must take to yoga practice.
Dr. Patel: No man can become like an Aurobindo again. Very great man. A politician, a saint, and what not. And a great rushi. He is a rushi. I consider him as a rushi.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there.
Guest: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena?
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
Guest: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner from breaking the temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Breaking the temple.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is... My fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go."
Prabhupāda: ...create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish.
Guest (5): But God knows before creating jīvas(?) and everything that they will start wars and take...
Prabhupāda: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation.
Guest (5): But why should He create them in the first instance?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Prabhupāda: That is stated that pitṛṇām. No, what is that verse? Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇām (SB 11.5.41). We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, ṛṣi, to the great, big, big, saintly ṛṣis. They have given us the śāstras. Devarṣi, devarṣi bhūtā... Bhūtā, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarṣi-bhūtā apta, relatives. We take so much help from relatives. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam, ordinary human beings. Pitṛṇām. And the pitṛs. So we are debted to so many. If you want to clear up the debts, it will take millions of births. (laughter) So devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇāṁ nayaṁ kiṅkara na ṛni ca rājan (SB 11.5.41). This man is neither servant nor indebted. Who? Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ mukundam. One who has taken... That Kṛṣṇa says, that "You just surrender unto Me. I will protect you." So if he does not do anything else... One may think that he is being entangled in sinful activities because he does not do other duties. But Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So one who has taken shelter, full shelter unto Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require to do any so-called social, political and other duties. He doesn't require.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. (break) Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy?
Prabhupāda: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple, simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is kṣatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaiśya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so, foreseer." (break)
Girirāja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality?
Prabhupāda: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva-dharma... He is a vaiśya, He should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhāvaḥ. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...being done in America because it is not to be done here. Here religion has become fanaticism and political degradation. It is not possible. Now see in our political paper how they are seriously doing and people taking seriously. Whatever program I give them, they are systematically doing. Here there is no assistance. (break) ...cry, "Oh, we are in, put in this condition, put in this..." Complain. But what is the remedy, we do not take. That is India's position. Mr. Kanunda(?), he's the son of late governor of Gujarat(?). He came to offer me a land in Bhuvaneśvara. So he said... He's the manager of the coal organization.
Prabhupāda: That is government, no responsibility. (break) ...kriyā hīnā. These governments are not... They are not reformed, and they have taken the post of government. Nobody can do(?). (break) ...today the political paper, Harmonist?
Girirāja: I read the... Shall I read it now?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that others may hear. (break) ...you simply present the card anywhere—you get things. You don't require to pay. Then your bills will be paid by the bank. This is the system. (break) ...Bank of American card, in any American, bank of America, I can get one hundred to five hundred dollars immediately. I have got that card. (break) ...the respectable customers... Yes. (break) ...money, then you can squander it, and that is the idea. And you more spend money; then they manufacture consumer goods. That is the policy. (break) ...ṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: (ISO 1) "Don't use anything more than what is allotted to you." That's all. But they are creating artificial demand, and the demand is being paid for by artificial paper. The government is issuing: "This is five hundred pounds or five hundred rupees," but it is paper only. Actually it is cheating. But we are satisfied. (break) ...said, "In God we trust." That's all. "In God we trust." What is that?
Dr. Patel: African, after all. Americans must be first. (static interference) ...politically conscious Africans.
Prabhupāda: We have got about ten African devotees now in Nairobi branch. (break) ...to material sense enjoyment. Such persons cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...avoid the dictation of the senses. But when a man is able to dictate the senses, then he is gosvāmī.
Dr. Patel: That is?
Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī.
Dr. Patel: "One who is lord of go."
Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. In that stage he cannot give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. When one sees that "This is better quality than the other," then he takes. Unless... Because superficially... Suppose because for becoming Vaiṣṇava, he has to undergo so many austerities. So ordinary man cannot find out that this is better life than that. So when he understands, "This service is not good; to serve Kṛṣṇa is good," then he can give up the service of māyā. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. Just like an ordinary servant, he is serving in your house, but if he gets some more salary in other's house, he gives it up. That is required. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante.
Prabhupāda: There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be... This is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there.
Prabhupāda: So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa, and... At least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not... It is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa, they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life.
Prabhupāda: Balavanta. He's also very nice. If we get some important votes in the government, then our mission will be successful. This, our philosophy is being properly ventilated, it is coming in the papers, isn't it? On account of this political leadership. And I see that his statements are published profusely. Not with other contemporaries. And what they'll speak? They have no sense, they have no leadership idea.
Satsvarūpa: Some devotees express the fear that after some time all these bogus groups, they will start running political men, too, and then the field may be ruined, that...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: ...the modern politicians. Here at the present moment their philosophy is that one must be very cunning diplomat, then he's successful politician. This is their philosophy. The most crooked man, like Cāṇakya. But our philosophy is that the political head should be like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Lord Rāmacandra, that is difference. Here Churchill or Hitler or similar man, crooked man... Without being crooked one cannot become politician. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, he said that "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." Consistency. You must change. (break)
Prabhupāda: The foodstuff is in Pakistan, and the industry is in India. So the Pakistan will suffer for want of industry, and India will suffer for want of food. This is British plan for partition. They had no business to divide the country, but they wanted to do it as a parting kick, that "You want independence. You will have independence, but you will remain perpetually in war." That was British policy. None of them are benefiting. Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want. That is the duty of the leaders to see. Perpetually they are in want, in scarcity, not in peace of mind, full of anxieties. In India especially, we see, the economy is so unsteady. The money value is decreasing every day.
Yogeśvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupāda: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Just see. It is a country... People are not bad. I have seen. They are very nice. The government, the rascals, a few men, who are controlling the government, they are all rogues and thieves. The same thing in India. Everywhere mass population, they are innocent. These rascals made them..., misleading. In Russia I have seen. The mass people, they are very nice. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are innocent. In India also. The Pakistan happened due to these politicians. The Hindus, Muslims, they are innocent. They don't fight. These politicians engaged them to fight artificially for their political ambition. The wars also declared nowadays, on account of the rascal politicians. The people do not want it. (break) ...to the Indian railway strike, have you got any news?
Prabhupāda: So before she reaches twenty years, twenty times she must have taken contraceptive method. And that means her health is ruined. What she'll produce? They are given in the schools, colleges, contraceptive tablets. And they are prohibiting, "Don't get child before twenty years." What is this nonsense? This is the difficulty. All rascals, they have taken leadership. Women should, should be allowed to beget children as soon as they're able. But as soon as the pregnancy is there, there should not be any sex life. They have got sex life in pregnancy also. So many things, we have... We can guide them all, all these rascals. From śāstra, we can guide them. Therefore immediately human society, a class of men who are fully conversant with the Vedic conclusion required to guide these rascals, socially, politically, in every respect.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to make him intelligent. Everyone is fool, mūḍha. Everyone within this material world is supposed to be a fool. Because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So he's fool. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Frenchman," "I am this," "I am that." What is the difference? A cat is thinking, "I'm cat." A dog is thinking, "I am dog." So if somebody thinks that, in relationship with the body, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am...", then where is the difference between the cat and the dog? He's thinking himself as this body. Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe , they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men?
Prabhupāda: Here is French. French language. (French)
Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy.
Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program?
Prabhupāda: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, śamo damas titikṣā.
Prabhupāda: These anarthas, problems, they have created under the influence of māyā. So if you want to solve it, you take to bhakti-yoga. Anarthopaśamam. Directly it will be solved, directly. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam, lokasya ajānataḥ. The rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvān, Vyāsadeva, the most learned, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām, he has done this sātvata, Vaiṣṇava literature, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is the only solution. These rascals, they have created problems. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for their benefit. Let them cooperate, and we shall make solution of all problems-political, social, everything. Let them come and cooperate. (pause) They are not agreeable to close the slaughterhouse? Yesterday, you were not present when that mayor came?
Yogeśvara: That there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non-dual philosophy is very nice on the political or social level as well since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything.
Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita. So monism, what is the center of monism? (French)
Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot... If you have no objective, then you cannot live in one way. (French for some time)
Bhagavān: He's just saying, "Let's get rid of..." (to RM:) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet.
Pṛthu Putra: Then he said that... (French)
Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride.
Bhagavān: The question is "What is he aiming at?"
Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. (French for some time)
Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad-gītā, and people are very interested.
Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad-gītā. (French) What is that?
Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad-gītā, or presents Bhagavad-gītā, to people, he doesn't tell them that "This is the word of God and you just have to accept it."
Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad-gītā. That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā.
Bhagavān: So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want?
Prabhupāda: Religious problem. Any problem.
Bhagavān: No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. (French)
Prabhupāda: Now, this question... Listen. Our Bhagavān says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better?
Professor La Combe: Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities.
Devotee: Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions.
Professor La Combe: Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killings.
Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be.
Professor La Combe: Now it is better.
Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government.
Professor La Combe: At that time, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. In politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that... Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there was some misunderstanding in chess playing that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas, these things are not uncommon.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding.
Devotee: Because we will also have to do that.
Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana (?). You understand Bengali? No. That, "When you are going to dance... A girl, or a lady is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana, became little ashamed. So you are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "On certain plea only, they have stopped our most important ceremony." In this way agitation must go on. And our men, those who took part in political agitation, they should go there and speak everywhere, that "It is religious discrimination."
Bali Mardana: They should have a protest meeting in front of the Parliament building, with signs.
Prabhupāda: Protest meeting must be there. How to organize? At least, a protest meeting should be done in such a way that the whole world may know that the British Government stopped the yearly Ratha-yatra ceremony of the Hindus. That should be organized. What can be done? You are not very strong GBC's. There must be vehement protest meeting.
Prabhupāda: So we have no responsibility. It is false, māyā. Our only responsibility is how to become obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. So that is only responsibility, one responsibility. Just like the political parties, they are advertising, different political party, "I am your friend. Give me vote." How he can be friend? Just like in America, the Nixon took vote, he was advertising "America requires Nixon." I have seen that advertised when he was being elected. But after some time, the people found that he is not required, "Get out." So nobody can become, because everyone is imperfect. How one can become friend or responsible for another person? Just like in your country, in Europe and America, so many hippies are there. Their parents are responsible, rich men, able men, but why they have become hippies? Is it not a fact? The father does not want that his son should become a hippie, but still he is becoming hippie. Where is his responsibility? You cannot give protection to your son. In spite of your desire, you are disappointed. So where is your responsibility? Who can answer? Where is your responsibility? You don't really like that your son should become a hippie, but you cannot protect him.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Gandhi was a politician. What does he know about dharma? He was a politician. He thought it wise that British government is very strong... Before him so many political parties tried to become violent, and they were all curbed down. This Aurobindo also was a leader of anarchist party, and when he was condemned to death, then his senses came: "This is all useless. Let me engage in performing yoga." So Gandhi thought that before him all these violent movement was cast down by the British. So he took it as a method, nonviolence, noncooperation, and to capture the public of India-India is generally inclined religiously—he became a mahātmā. But mahātmā is different. A mahātmā is not interested in politics. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ-prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). That is mahātmā. Mahātmā has nothing to do with politics.
Guest: (Hṛdayānanda translates) He's saying that he himself is involved with political leaders, and he said he's found that they're completely unwilling. They don't want to hear anything about the solution, and they're completely stuck to their own way. So what can ISKCON do...
Prabhupāda: They will suffer, that's all.
Hṛdayānanda: He said is there anything we can do in the political field to try to...
Prabhupāda: If they will not take, they don't want to hear, then they must suffer.
Hṛdayānanda: He's saying all the human race is suffering due to the bad points of the leaders.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because the rascal leaders.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa. You are guided by Dr. Radhakrishnan. That is the misfortune. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is being, is following another blind man. That is going on. That is going on all over the world, not only in India.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious movement means... It is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted... Just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness-originally clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Kṛṣṇa, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to purify the dirty things and then... So, to purify this, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleaning the mirror of consciousness, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is only way.
Jayatīrtha: Jaya. So that's the first point.
Prabhupāda: That is the first point.
Prabhupāda: And the whole devotional service means ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, cleansing the dirty-politically, socially, communally, and internationally, nationally... In this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upādhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored water. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my, my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's..." This thinking is opposite Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," that's all. That is all.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All politicians, political party, nobody is in peace, simply throbbing-making this party, making that party, combining this party, and the anti-government troops, and this, that, so many... There is no other business.
Brahmānanda: No solution.
Prabhupāda: No solution. Big, big leaders. Nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍhāḥ. "All these rascals, they do not know the background is 'I am.' Solution should come from Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Tribhir guṇa-māyāir bhāvair mohita. But they'll not take this solution. They'll make simply, start a plan. (break) ...less you come to this point, mām ebhyaḥ, there is no solution. Now, at least for me, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is no more theoretical. It is practical. I can solve all problems.
Prabhupāda: Americans want this place to fight with the Russians. So if American comes directly in India, that "We want to fight," then India would not agree. Therefore they're keeping with these foolish rascals, Pakistan. And they're insulting. They're... Not insulting. They're naturally enemy of... not to let them... The Vietnam and everything, Korea, all these things. Not to allow the communists to become very powerful. That is American political policy is going on. And the presidents may change, but the national policy cannot be changed. Therefore they want fighting between Pakistan and India. So Russia... Actually that happened. Russia will come to the help of India. That arrangement is already there with Indira Gandhi. Naturally they'll come to help Pakistan. And then between the big two.
Prabhupāda: There is no danger internationally. Suppose... Just like the Buddhists. They have got their all pilgrimages in India. Because Lord Buddha is Indian. He spread Buddhism all over the world. So all the Buddhist relics and pilgrimages are in India. Gaya Pradesh and other, Benares... So India government allow them free, freedom to come here as pilgrimage. So you are now Vaiṣṇava. Why they should not allow you to come to your pilgrimage in India, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace? You have adopted Lord Caitanya, Lord Kṛṣṇa's birthplace. Legally, they cannot. They should, rather, make arrangement. But, from political point of view, they're thinking that "These Americans have taken to this religious garb. Actually they are intending something political." That is the general impression. C.I.A. What can be done? Therefore I was stressing this point that you Americans, if you make your country strong, Kṛṣṇa conscious, that will be good for the whole world.
Bhagavān: And we're an obvious cultural movement, whereas they are a hobby.
Prabhupāda: Hobby. That they can understand. So on account of this political situation, the government is not very favorable to our movement. But we have to counteract it by our behavior, by our propaganda. It is not difficult if you do it very nicely. We opened this college program, that foreigners should come here, then it will be solved. If it is recognized by the university and you come, you people come as students, then the whole situation will be solved.
Devotee (1): Here in Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)
Prabhupāda: If you alone live in this field eternally, that is not bliss. That is punishment. You see? So that is nature. We want ānanda, blissfulness. Therefore those who are... Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). After severe austerities they rise up to the Brahmān effulgence, but on account of his original nature of ānanda, he cannot remain there. He again falls down. "Oh, it was better, family life. What is this nonsense? Eternally sit up in this field? What is this? Let me go to the town and work there." You see? That is your nature. Therefore these impersonalists who want to merge, they can merge, but there they cannot remain. They will again come. These so-called sannyāsīs, they give up everything—brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā—Vivekananda or this Karpatri. Again they come to these material activities. Somebody takes social work, somebody takes political work. But if it is mithyā, if it is false, why...? (break) But they have... (break) Again come, open hospital, do political work. They cannot stick up. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficiency. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana (CC Adi 7.71). "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect-he's to be chastised—then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. (Break) ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish.
Devotee: So much anxiety and so much political dealings.
Prabhupāda: All demon.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All very fatty.
Prabhupāda: They, they... the other's money.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The peo... I didn't see one village man who was fatty, not one.
Prabhupāda: Not one. They're extracting money from them, making them intoxicated and exploiting. This is the fault. Very precarious condition. (break) So if you can make one example (break) India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply, we have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal.
Prabhupāda: Oh, again, "heard it from devotee." (laughter) That is very dangerous. What Caitanya's movement has got with politics? Nothing. They drag Caitanya's movement, that. Many rascals do that. It has nothing to do with politics. It is simply spiritual. Rather, even the Mohammedans, they were very much respectful to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They never took it as, His, the political movement. Now it has become a fashion to take everything from political point of view. Just like in India, they are suspecting you as CIA. "CIA has come to become Vaiṣṇava." (laughter) (break) That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. If anyone remembers Kṛṣṇa by seeing somebody, that somebody is a Vaiṣṇava. He gives impetus to remember Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is Vaiṣṇava. You stick to your principle, Vaiṣṇava. Then māyā will not touch. (break) Where is Prajāpati? He is not here?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam (SB 10.14.8). When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. (break) ...me." That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Dāya-bhāk. Dāya-bhāk means he inherits God's property as the son's inherits the father's property. Dāya-bhāk. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the chief man. So the guru is there. He is the chief man, giving direction, or the captain. And others are plying, and the boat is also strong, and the wind is also favorable. In this circumstances, if you cannot cross, then you make suicide. The śāstras are there. That is favorable wind. You get the way. And the spiritual master is directing, "Do like this." And you have got a nice boat and you are plying. Now cross over. Very big ocean in the material world. Just see the sky, how big it is. So we have to cross this material sky, penetrate the covering, then go to the spiritual sky. Then you are safe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). That place, even after destruction of this whole material world, that is safe. So we have to go there, plying the boat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You rascal, give up everything. Surrender unto Me. And surrender unto Me. Follow My instruction as I have given. Then you are safe." But that they will not do. They will try to cheat Kṛṣṇa by interpretation, "This means this. This means that." That they will do, these rascals, big, big rascals. Kṛṣṇa says something, and they will misinterpret. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy.
Dr. Copeland: I've heard of it. From another worker. While you were in the college or afterwards, did you participate in any political movements?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I joined this Gandhi's.
Dr. Copeland: You did? Had you met Gandhi?
Prabhupāda: I met several times, but not as personal interview. But I liked his movement, national movement.
Dr. Copeland: Why?
Prabhupāda: Young men, everyone likes politics. (Dr. Copeland laughs) Actually, later on, I did not like. When I was mature, when I met my Guru Mahārāja, then I thought all these things bogus. It has nothing, no value. Social movement, political movement, they are simply wasting time. Real movement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Director: Of course it's a political decision. I can only...
Prabhupāda: It is above politics.
Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the department means they are another set of...
Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will...
Prabhupāda: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department?
Prabhupāda: All nonsense. They are professing I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, but they are enemies, one another. So where is their religion? Just see, common sense. Even the animals, amongst themselves, they do not say "Keep out." Sit down together. They sit down actually. The birds, beasts of the same position, they keep together. Birds of the same feather flock... But human being, having, professing so many religions-enemies. This is their civilization. They discover better religion, but enemies to the animal, to the man, everyone. Therefore Bhāgavata religion is meant for persons who are not enemies. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). That is religion. We have come to here from India not as enemy but as friend, to give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is dharma. Although politically they are enemies-India is thinking "America is my enemy," or America is thinking "India is my enemy"—we do not think like that. We go everywhere, take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, be happy. This is our business. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. "Private. Keep out."
Prabhupāda: Determination, and yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Now when there is war, these politician will remain in their room safely. They will not go to the war. And why these people are voted for political post? Formerly the king would first of all stand. To the other side also, the king is there and this side also. The fight is going on. If the king is killed, then the victory is there. Yuddhe ca apalāyanam. The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader... How you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head. I push my hand.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is for unhappiness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this place, the material world, has been described as duḥkhālayam. Duḥkhālayam means the place of miseries. So how you... If the place is made for miseries, how you can make this place as full of pleasure, if God made like that? Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 5.29)
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such research scholar, mahātmā, is very rare." And then He describes in the next verse that what is the symptom of these mahātmās, perfect soul. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: (BG 9.13) "They are no more under the control of this material nature, they are fully under the control of spiritual nature." So what is the symptom that he is under spiritual nature, not...? Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa." Bhajanti, "engaged in service." Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is the symptom of a mahātmā. The Bhagavad-gītā does not say, "One who has got political business, he is mahātmā," no. Mahātmā means bhajanty ananya-manaso: "Without any diversion, simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. That is mahātmā." So everything is there.
Dharmādhyakṣa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupāda: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalinī-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupāda: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupāda: This is everything. Religious, social, political, philanthropical, science, everything included. We can give advice for solving any problem. That we have got all these books, practical. And in India there is political problem. Everywhere it is going on. They do not follow the standard way. Who will be the politicians? Here is the..., described. What are the politicians? Second-class, they are taken second-class. What is that? Śaurya tejaḥ?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Heroism..."
Prabhupāda: Heroism, yes. Śaurya tejaḥ...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyam (BG 18.43).
Prabhupāda: Ah, read this, read...
Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first-class man.
Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Nārāyaṇa is successful?
Prabhupāda: No.
Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.
Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.
Prabhupāda: So this instruction is strīṣu duṣṭāsu: "When women become polluted, there is unwanted population." That is coming all over the world, the hippies. Therefore the first thing is how to train up women not to become polluted. This is the way of... In the modern society they have given women freedom. That I have already explained. In the name of freedom of woman, they are being exploited. Everything is there: social, religious, political, cultural, educational. We have to accept that course. Then everything will be all right. If you don't accept, then you have to suffer problems. It is not meant for a particular class of men or particular country, it is meant for the whole human society. Therefore, this purification of the society at the present, fallen condition is very, very difficult to revive. Because people are so fallen, it is almost impossible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that "You all together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be done nicely."
Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they want to know what will be the political effect of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?
Prabhupāda: Everything will be polished if Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is taken. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If this God consciousness is spread, then everyone will be brilliantly qualified. And without God consciousness, the so-called education as we were discussing in the morning, there is no value in it. Simply they are talking. What is the subject matter we were talking?
Bahulāśva: Psychology this morning.
Prabhupāda: The result is the students are falling down from the tower in disappointment. And they are protected with glass.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So he is dependent on the family affection. Then economic impetus go on. And I think he has given another proposition that if man can easily live, then he will not work. That is the nature of man. Therefore a rich man's son, he does not work. Because he has father's money, he can spend. In America the boys are rich man's son, and therefore so many boys are not working. They have got easy income, and they are not working. And because there is no proper work, they are becoming hippies. They are manufacturing independence. "Idle brain is a devil's workshop." This human psychology is the same everywhere. In India many rich men's son, until he has spoiled his father's whole money, he is restless. And when he is turned to a beggar, then he is satisfied. I have seen many, spoiling father's money like anything, and the same man, when he is beggar in the street, he feels happy. I shall quote one statement of a very big man, politician, Mr. C.R. Das. So he died in 1925. He was about our father's age. So he was earning in those days fifty thousand rupees per month. Fifty thousand... our rupee or dollar is the same. Although exchange value is different, but the... Locally, the purchasing capacity is the same. So he and his wife were sitting on the corridor, and the wife was talking that "Why you are so morose always? You are earning like anything. You have got respect as political leader.
Woman reporter: Would you comment on the political situation in India now. What do you think about Mrs. Gandhi's...?
Prabhupāda: Well, we are not very much concerned with political situation. But our proposition is—either political, social, economical or philosophical, anything—without Kṛṣṇa, it is all zero. So far Mrs. Gandhi is concerned, she is inclined to some spiritual understanding. So actually if she becomes very advanced spiritually, then this emergency situation will improve. Otherwise... and it is the public opinion against democracy. So democracy is not very much beneficial anywhere and everywhere. In your country also, you voted Mr. Nixon, democracy, but you were not satisfied with him. That means democracy, ordinary men they select somebody and again they try to bring him down. Why? When he was selected, it means it was a mistake.
Prabhupāda: So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country-Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict. The battle of Kurukṣetra was there because Lord Kṛṣṇa wanted rājarṣi, Yudhiṣṭhira, should be on the head. So the king is supposed to be the representative of God. So he must be a godly person. Then it will be successful. That's all right. (end)
Prabhupāda: ...of people, they do not care for these political things. Even in Gandhi's strong civil disobedience movement, out of the whole population of India, only sixty-thousand men joined. What is the India's population?
Brahmānanda: Six hundred million.
Prabhupāda: Six hundred million, and out of that sixty-thousand joined, and it became successful. Sixty thousand joined by statistics. Actually worker, I don't think more than ten thousand people. Exactly like Indian village. Here there is no business. They simply reside.
Brahmānanda: The president. Nixon used to use the CIA to... If he had any enemy, he would have the CIA investigate that man. He was using it for his personal political purposes. (break) ...testing. In the early 1960's they were testing the effects of LSD, and so they gave LSD secretly into this one officer's coffee drink. And he drank it. He did not know it was LSD, and he went crazy and committed suicide. So now this investigation of CIA has uncovered this information. So now the family of this officer, they are suing the CIA for millions of dollars. (break) ... regular business of breaking into foreign embassies. In New York and Washington they did over 1500 break-ins, photographing documents, stealing coding machines. Sometimes when they would break in at night into one embassy, they would meet agents of another country who also were breaking into the same embassy, and they would salute one another. (laughter) It's a regular business.
Prabhupāda: They will not kill each other?
Prabhupāda: Simply political gain. (break)
Jagadīśa: ...back to the temple we'll be performing āratik to Your Divine Grace. And there was not very much time. I was wondering whether during the time we're performing āratik to you, whether it's proper to be giving out cookies to the children?
Prabhupāda: As you make convenient.
Jagadīśa: Is that proper?
Prabhupāda: No. So we can go back now. Again program. (break) .now?
Jagadīśa: 6:30.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) I am not feeling very well. Last yesterday also. Heaviness. I am not clearing my bowels very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Oh. That is good. (break) He is released from all political obligations or not?
Brahmānanda: From the charges?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: No. Actually he can be called to give testimony.
Prabhupāda: Testimony?
Brahmānanda: Yes. There are certain pending investigations. So he is eligible for being called to give testimony for these investigations. But on the plea of his bad health, therefore he is not being called. He is afraid actually. Right now he does not go to any social gatherings, he does not make any public appearances. He is afraid that as soon as he makes public appearances, then he will be called to give testimony. So he is actually being forced to live a very lonely life.
Prabhupāda: Lonely life means drinking. What he will do? (break) ...this was made by Napoleon?
Brahmānanda: "Asked about the political situation in his native India and the criticized actions of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, the swami replied that 'Mrs. Gandhi is inclined to some spiritual understanding, and if she fully develops it the situation will improve. Democracy is not much beneficial if its leaders have no spiritual values. Mahatma Gandhi was practically a dictator, but he was a man of high moral character, so people accepted him. Dictatorship can be good provided the dictator is spiritually developed.' "
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Lalitā: You take this benefit. (Bengali) ...spiritually conscious, everything will be... (Bengali) But if it is the nasty things, the nasty and...
Prabhupāda: Politically it will be failure, but spiritually it will be successful.
Prabhupāda: No, she has got political situation, so that's all right. We should not record. We shall talk and photo can be taken. That's all. (Bengali) Where is my, that letter? I wrote one.
Brahmānanda: To Indira Gandhi?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one letter. When this trouble was there, so it came to my mind that, "Why there is trouble? All the leaders can follow Bhagavad-gītā and then things will be all right." So I sent that letter. Indira Gandhi letter. Here. What did I write?
Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi." This is dated July 1st, 1975, from Evanston, Illinois.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom I wrote it?
Prabhupāda: They have been forced to forget Hare Kṛṣṇa by the so-called rascal leaders. Otherwise India is meant for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the whole India. (break) ...scandalous these Māyāvādīs and next the politicians, killing the spirit of India. These Māyāvādīs teaching "Why you are after God? You are God." That's all. And he says, "Yes, I am God. Why shall I worship God?" This is the... And becoming God, when they do not get any relish of becoming God, then the politician says, "It is all useless. Come to the political field. Take daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva. That's all, finished." The Māyāvādī creates the field of atheism, and later on, the politician make them perfect atheist.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is actually spiritually situated, this material center of happiness, maithunādi, that will go anywhere. You give any color, spiritual or religious or political. You see? Why Gandhi's āśrama failed? Do you know that? This is... When Gandhi was in jail, when he came back he saw all pregnant. You did not know that?
Kartikeya: No, we imagined, but we don't have information.
Prabhupāda: That what... Gandhi said, "What is this āśrama?"
Indian man (1): No, but Gandhi... He is well known, very well known.
Prabhupāda: He is well known.
Prabhupāda: But we are not against any "ism," either Muslimism or Christianism. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we never preach against anyone.
Dr. Patel: It was a socio-economic problem or socio-political, not a religious problem.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we never criticize anyone. When the Christians come forward—"Whether our Christian religion can also give the same meaning"—"Yes, why not?" Yes.
Dr. Patel: It has the same bhakti.
Prabhupāda: I never said...
Dr. Patel:ut I think the Christianity is nothing but bhāgavata-dharma. It has been preached in a different way.
Prabhupāda: Political struggle.
Prof. Olivier: Political struggles or resisting this transportation back to India, and they were fighting to make a living, you know, finding their own place in the country. And it's only, as I see that in the future as I've been telling them that we are privileged to have them here in this country with this background, and they mustn't cut themselves away from it and drift in a vacuum. They must give meaning to the essence of their own beliefs and faith. But they do not know to whom to turn.
Prabhupāda: So this is the opportunity.
Prabhupāda: No, Nehru, he was searching after some big post. That's all. All these political agitators, they want the big post, that's all. You give them big post, and they will be satisfied. They will no more agitate. Political agitators means they want some prize post from the government. That's all. Make them some minister, and they will be no more agitator.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he is considered to be very religious man in the eyes of the masses.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nehru.
Prabhupāda: Nehru?
Prabhupāda: But at the same time, you want to live and enjoy. That is not allowed. Everyone wants to live and enjoy. Hm? Otherwise why, when there is attack outside, why do you fight? The tendency is that "I shall live comfortably." Why these white Europeans have made so high plan? So that they may not be kicked out by the Africans. That is the tendency. Therefore they are making secure, Africans far away so that they may not come. You want to live securely, but that is not there. You may make political arrangement very secure, but what is the nature's arrangement? You'll be kicked out at any moment. There is no certainty. There is no guarantee even that you will be allowed to live for so many years. At any moment.
Prabhupāda: Because the democracy. You will not get vote. As soon as you become honest man in the public office, nobody will be obedient to you, and it will be impossible for him to execute any... You see? The bank manager in Delhi—he was my friend—that "I am afraid of this union. If I press them to do something, they will immediately topsy-turvy the whole management." Bank manager said. "So I am afraid of the workers' union," he told me. So therefore good men, they do not go to this political post because they know they will not be able to do anything good. He will be surrounded by all rogues. Nobody will execute his order.
Brahmānanda: And it just happened recently, one political opposition leader, he was brought to some place near Nairobi and he was... His genitals were cut off, his eyes were...
Prabhupāda: Plucked out.
Cyavana: Then he was shot.
Brahmānanda: Then he was shot.
Prabhupāda: African?
Brahmānanda: There was a big scandal because the police were implicated.
Prabhupāda: This parking plan are made by them?
Prabhupāda: No, in India also, all these political leaders, big ministers...
Dr. Patel: No, no. The Communism itself is Carvakism in a different way. Our sanātana-dharma is a communist-dharma, when you see the same eye, everyone in equal. But they don't want that way. They want other way. From body consciousness, not from soul consciousness, they want Communism. Sanātana-dharma preaches us Communism from soul consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Where is the understanding of soul? Everyone is puffed up with his body. Nobody considers even that "When I say this finger, 'my finger, my head, my leg...' "
Dr. Patel: And who is that "my"?
Prabhupāda: And who is that "I"?
Prabhupāda: You see. This is the kalākendra.
Haṁsadūta: There was a political cartoon that people were shouting for food to Indira Gandhi, and the minister was saying, "The people want food." And she said, "But tomorrow we're going to have television."
Prabhupāda: Television. Kalākendra. (break) ...kalākendra? This big house.
Harikeśa: Rabindra...
Prabhupāda: Rabindranath. Oh, he is the foremost kalā, Rabindranath Tagore. He has shown biggest kalā to the people of India.
Devotee (1): Aurobindo kalākendra.
Prabhupāda: Aurobindo kalā.
Prabhupāda: Hah. So you are scientist, you protect yourself. (laughter)
Devotee (2): Scientists aren't very intelligent because today he big thing in the country politically is that whole world thinks they are running out of energy on one hand, and on the other hand the whole world believes that the scientists can solve all the problems and get to know the absolute truth but if they...
Prabhupāda: They are creating problems.
Devotee (2): Yes, they're creating problems.
Prabhupāda: (sounds of lots of birds in background) (stops) Birds and beasts, they're living without any scientists—they're more happy.
Prabhupāda: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. Why do you blame the temples?
Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the...
Prabhupāda: Everyone. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: ...those popes. However, Christ taught bhāgavata-dharma, absolute bhāgavata-dharma. It is this creation of the church, really to my mind, that the Christ is forgotten by the Western countries.
Prabhupāda: And who is remembering your Kṛṣṇa in this country?
| Page Title: | Political (Conversations 1974 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 12 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=80, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 80 |