Śyāmasundara: Their method begins with the things themselves, they say "to the things themselves," or in other words, they begin from phenomenon.
Prabhupāda: Yes (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: To reject all theories, scientific experiments, all these things.
Prabhupāda: When you study the phenomenon—the body—this is phenomenon, that "I am this body or not?" Then you come to the conclusion that "I am not body. I am the soul. Then what for I am soul, I (indistinct)?" Then you will get from Krsna, "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa."
Śyāmasundara: They say that the phenomenon...
Prabhupāda: Just like one can analyze in this way: I am sitting on this comfortable, I mean, seat, cushion. Why I am sitting here? Because it is giving comfort to my body. Then I come to the study of body: Why I am maintaining this body? Because I am the soul, I am living in this body. Then ultimately I love my self, my soul. I love this seat because it gives shelter to my body. I love this body because it gives shelter to my soul. I love this soul because it is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimately I love Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? That is pure consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: They say that the phenomena, or the things, are the ways or the manifestations in which objects present themselves through their appearances.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: This object...
Prabhupāda: This phenomenon... Phenomenon means it comes and it goes. (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: According to their way of thinking, the appearance of the phenomenon comes and goes, but the phenomenon itself is changeless.
Prabhupāda: That is not phenomenon. That is called noumena in philosophical language. Noumena. You can see the difference from noumena. Noumena. Phenomenon is (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Well, he gets into noumena later, but he says... Just like this is a picture. It appears as this picture like this now, but in some time it may not appear like this, but still "picture," the idea "picture" or the essence "picture" exists independently of its appearance in this form.
Prabhupāda: That picture is also phenomenon ultimately, that idea of picture.
Śyāmasundara: That phenomenon. Yes. But if... It's a permanent type of changeless idea, picture. Even it may have many appearances which come and go, but the idea of "picture" is permanent, or changeless. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirming our theory of spiritual world as permanent. Just like here, the picture of a tree, that is phenomenon. But the picture, is that now original? Just like sometimes there are dolls, show dolls; that is phenomena. But the idea behind the dolls, that is permanent. Beautiful girl standing on the showcase, that is a doll. That is phenomenon. But a beautiful girl is not phenomenon; that is fact. This is a crude example. Similarly, this material world is phenomenon. That is explained by Śrīdhara Swami, that because the spiritual is true, fact, therefore the phenomenal expression of the spiritual world amidst matter appears to be true. This material world, phenomenal world, is not fact, but because it is representation of a fact, therefore it appears as fact. That is phenomenology.