Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Well, the western countries are mostly concerned with economics, money, wealth...
Prabhupāda: No, that is...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It's about the same as...
Prabhupāda: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad-gītā does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." One has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra pāpas catur-vidhaḥ. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come.
Śyāmasundara: I think Mr. Toynbee... I saw on television, I saw you once on a television program in New York.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: And you concluded that if men came out of this age who had developed a spirit of renunciation, true renunciation from material pursuit, that this would enable the world to rectify its present precarious position.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: So... Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you see any signs of change in the western world or not?
Prabhupāda: Well, change can take place any moment, provided they will take this movement little seriously. Change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Change for good. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And your article showed that you are also for change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So our movement and your honor, we can cooperate for the good of the general people.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: How do you see this "spirit of true renunciation," as you call it, how do you see it...?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: How do you see that that is able to come about at this time in history?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There are some signs in western countries, of people turning away from just money-making professions, I think. Small signs, but distinct signs perhaps. But it'll take a long time, and probably only through a great deal of suffering will people learn to change their attitude to life, I think. I think in Britain at the present, people of all classes are going for more wealth, more material standard of living, and so on, they're thinking almost entirely of this, which doesn't make for happiness and cannot really be achieved by everybody.
Śyāmasundara: Many young people, especially young people...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Many people nowadays are finding this renunciation quite simple and easy...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...as Prabhupāda was saying about the four rules and so many other activities. We may perform something on the surface, but the renunciation is there in our consciousness because we're giving everything to Kṛṣṇa as a service.