Otherwise, another, the next verse, I forget now. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham, it has been described, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā (SB 1.5.10). So this kind of literature, even it is not properly, grammatically correct, tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo yasmin prati-ślokam, abaddha (SB 1.5.11). That, writing Sanskrit śloka, it requires very high education. It is not that whatever I write, three miles, one line, two lines, no. There is some metric system, canda, so saita (?). So the, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, even it is not properly composed, but because there is anantasya, anantasya guṇani, the glorification ananta, the Supreme, śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ. Those who are sādhus, actually, they accept it. It doesn't matter if there is little grammatical mistake or some poetical discrepancies. There are literary rules and regulation. So śāstra says, it doesn't matter, even there is not perfectly, Śaṅkarācārya also says, na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛṅ-kāraṇe. You cannot be saved by simply grammatical efficiency. No. The grammatical efficiency is secondary. Real thing is how much you are feeling for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat śṛṇvanti gṛṇanti gāyanti sādhavaḥ.
Not perfect (Lectures, Other)
Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
So the best knowledge, He's giving, Kṛṣṇa Himself: Bhagavad-gītā. He's coming personally to give knowledge. But we are so unfortunate, we are not accepting the knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa. We are hankering after some other knowledge given by some defective human being. A human being cannot give us any perfect knowledge. Therefore all the scientists' statements, all the philosophers' statements, they are simply theories; they are not fact. Because the knowledge is not perfect. Perfect knowledge can be had from one who is not defective. Defective means generally a conditioned soul has four defects: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he has got a cheating propensity, and his senses are imperfect. The senses, we are acquiring knowledge through our senses, and if our senses are imperfect, how we can acquire perfect knowledge? Just like we are trying to see the planetary system through microscope or binocular, telescope, but the telescope machine is manufactured by a person who is, whose senses are defective. So through the telescope, how you can have perfect knowledge?
That is the professional (perfectional?) stage of serving Kṛṣṇa. So we don't take the world as mithyā.
Therefore those who are impersonalists, they think that they have become liberated. Actually, they are not liberated. The Bhāgavata says, vimukta-māninaḥ. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ. They are thinking like that. Actually, their intelligence is not yet completely purified. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ (SB 10.2.32). So even Brahma-sukha, the happiness derived from realization of Brahman, is not perfect. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
Variety is the mother of enjoy... If I give you a lump of milk, or lump of grain, that is not enjoyable. When it is made into varieties, it is enjoyable. Similarly Brahman, manifested in varieties, that is enjoyable. That you cannot have in the impersonal Brahman. When we approach the personal Brahman, Param Brahman, that variety is available, and there we can enjoy. From there we do not return. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). So simply impersonal Brahman realization, that happiness is not perfect, neither this material varieties are perfect. So brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. When we are fed up with these material varieties, we try to enter in the impersonal Brahman. But even in the impersonal Brahman, when there is want of varieties, then again we come back to these material varieties. Therefore we see so many learned scholars, sannyāsīs, they give up these material varieties as mithyā and enter into the impersonal Brahman, but without variety there, they come again to the material variety for opening schools and hospitals. This is the fact.
This is called ātma-jñāna. Ātma-jñāna. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāta yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. This is ātma-tattvam. "I am spirit soul," that is partial knowledge. And I am eternal spirit soul, but unless I know that I am part and parcel of the Supreme Ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, my knowledge is not perfect. Simply brahma-bhūtaḥ, to know that I am spirit soul, that is not perfect knowledge. You have to still go further. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Śrīdhara Swami says that kaitava. When one thinks artificially that he becomes, he has become liberated, one with the Supreme, that is also kaitava, cheating. He's not. How he can be one with the Supreme Lord? Then how he has become insignificant creature if he's Supreme Lord? Therefore this kind of conception, that "I have become God now," this is also cheating, another cheating. He's cheating, self-deception. He's cheating himself. And what to speak of others. So this kind of oneness, or to become God, they're imperfect knowledge. Go on.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
There is no difference. Brahman is not different from Bhagavān, and Bhagavān is not different from Brahman. Bhagavān is addressed by Arjuna as Para-brahman. Brahman realization, gradually... First realization: impersonal Brahman; then localized Brahman; then personal Brahman. The personal Brahman is called Para-brahman, the Supreme Brahman. Impersonal Brahman is the beginning of realization of the Absolute Truth. That is not final. Therefore those who are satisfied with impersonal Brahman, their knowledge is not perfect. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). The realization of the Absolute Truth is the platform of viśuddha-sattva. So unless one comes to the platform of personal realization of the Lord, one is supposed to be aviśuddha-buddhi: intelligence is not yet perfectly pure.
He does not say the Hindus or the Bengalis or these Punjabis. No. He says particularly, "Any person who has taken his birth in this land of Bhāratavarṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "you just perfect your life. Just perfect your life," and kara paropakāra, "and distribute this knowledge for benefit of all other people."
So this injunction is received, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, that "First of all make your life perfect. Don't try to preach without becoming yourself perfect." The nonsense thing is going on in this world that so-called preachers, they have not perfected their life, but they have become preachers. They have not already perfected their life, and they have become preacher. Therefore they are bringing so many nonsense things and misleading persons, Vedāntists and Vedānta Society, yogis, this or that. But they are not themselves perfect. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Before becoming preacher, before endeavoring yourself to do good to others, you just perfect yourself."
I can do things nicely. So naturally my father is a person. How he can become imperson?" although I have not seen it. So these require, janmādy asya yataḥ... Vedānta-sūtra says that "from whom everything is emanated." So He's not imperson. Therefore Bhāgavata explains this verse, this sūtra, very nicely. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). That Supreme Person, God, is cognizant. He's sentient, not imperson, because He knows everything. Because everything is... Just like your father knows almost everything of you because he has created you. This is crude example. But He's perfect. We fathers, we are not perfect. But He's perfect. Therefore, because He's perfect, He knows everything in the nook and corner of this creation. He knows everything. And Bhāgavata says abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means He knows. How He knows? Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. His knowing process is different. And we simply apply our nonsense, I mean to say, ideas to God. Now here, Vedas, Vedas says now this sun is the eye of God. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakalā-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. This sun, which is so illuminating and so powerful, it is the eye of God.
"Whatever path you may adopt, you will go to God." There are certain rascals. They say like that. But this is misleading, completely misleading. You cannot, I mean to say, reach God by any other means except this means, this bhaktyā aham ekayā. It is clearly stated, ekayā. Ekayā means "only one." There is no second process. And the Bhagavad-gītā also, it is stated—you will find in the Eighteenth Chapter—bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means in fact.
So you... Impersonal conception of Godhead, localized conception of Godhead or universal form of God, pantheism, monism—they are not perfect. If you want to know perfectly, then bhakti... It is stated in everywhere, in all Vedic literatures, evidentially in Bhagavad-gītā, which is present before us, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Everywhere you will find this only way, that devotional service. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Tattvataḥ means "in fact." Partially you can know, but in complete... Of course, God cannot be known in complete, but the highest point a human being or a living entity can reach... That, the only process, through bhakti... Bhaktyāham ekayā grāhyaḥ śraddhayātmā priyaḥ satām. Śraddhā ātmā priyaḥ satām.
After learning these perfectly, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So in the nine cantos of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, all these different nine manifestation of His energies are described. If we can understand... Just like if we can study the sunshine, the energy of the sun, then we can estimate the value of sun: "Oh, what sort of temperature is there." So if you want to study God, if you want to know God, then you must first of all study His energies. God is all-pervading by His energy. You study. Just the scientists, what they are studying? They are studying a portion of the energy of God, only a portion of the energy of God. That is also not perfectly. So the energy is so vast and immense that one cannot study even the energy. Therefore those who are studying about God, after finishing the study of the energies, they are at a loss to understand how so much energy can be emanated from the person. Therefore they cannot conceive any personal idea of God. The energy is so vast and immense that they are bewildered in the energy. And how such great amount of energy can emanate from a person they cannot conceive, because they compare with their own energy. Because I am limited... I have got this body, I have got my personality, but my energies are limited. But we cannot understand that the Unlimited has got unlimited energy.
It appears just like only dazzling effulgence. But when the sunlight is not there, we can see millions and millions of stars in the firmament. So in the Upaniṣad also, it is prayed that "My Lord, You kindly move this curtain of glaring effulgence so that I can actually see You."
So one who is dazzled by this glaring effulgence of the rays of Kṛṣṇa, they can realize the Supreme Lord or the Supreme Absolute Truth as impersonal. Sūrya yena carma-cakṣe jyotirmaya bhāse. Carma-cakṣe, with our present eyes, defective... All our senses are defective. We are very much proud of our eyes. I want to see personally. But we do not know that with these eyes or any sense, they are all defective. They are not perfect. Just like in the glare of the sunshine, oh, we see nothing. We see sometimes darkness. So we cannot believe these eyes or senses. We have to take information of perfect knowledge from the authorities. That is the Vedic way. So those who want to see God or the Supreme Absolute Truth by the agency of their imperfect senses, they say that God is impersonal. They're imperfect.
And so long we do not understand what is love of Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we will love false things, and at the end we shall be frustrated. That is the going on. At every step we are being frustrated; still, we do not leave that path. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). We are repeating the same mistake, same mistake, in every step.
Now, even a love extended, so-called love extended, that nationalism, loving the countrymen, loving the humanity, that is also not perfect. We have got practical experience. In our country, in India, Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very nicely. He sacrificed everything, and for thirty-five years he simply struggled for the, I mean to say, independence of his country, of his countrymen. But the result was, at the ultimate end, he was killed by his countrymen. After loving so much his country, the result was that he was killed by his country. So in this material world the love is like that. It is never perfect. It cannot be perfect. So Lord Caitanya, taking compassion on these poor fellows, He taught love of Godhead.
Now, Arjuna wanted to confirm this paraṁ bhāvam, that the less intelligent class of men who are fond of the universal form or the Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa form, and there are so many innumerable forms... Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam. Kṛṣṇa has ananta-rūpa. But the ultimate, supreme form is Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Ajānantaḥ means they do not know that paraṁ bhāva. So here the same thing is confirmed by Lord Caitanya, that He says, advaya-jñāna-tattva kṛṣṇa-svayaṁ bhagavān.
So the Absolute Truth, the ultimate stage of realizing Absolute Truth, is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Brahman realization, Paramātmā realization, they are not perfect realization of the Absolute Truth. Partial realization. Brahman realization means realization of the Absolute Truth in eternity. That's all. Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is realization of eternity and knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa realization means full realization of the Absolute Truth, means eternity, knowledge, and bliss. Without Kṛṣṇa knowledge we cannot be blissful. But by nature we are blissful. In the Brahma-sūtra, in the Vedānta-sūtra, it is stated, ānandamayo abhyāsāt. Every living entity, Brahman... Living entities, they are Brahman, and Kṛṣṇa is also Para-brahman. So Brahman and Para-brahman, both of them are by nature joyful.
Festival Lectures
So Kṛṣṇa appeared, and immediately He was transferred to a friend's house by His father. Vasudeva is kṣatriya, and Nanda Mahārāja is a vaiśya. Kṣatriya business is royal family, and vaiśya, they are agriculturalists, traders, krsi-go-raksya, and protection of cows. These three business, livelihood of the vaiśya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi means agriculture, and go-rakṣya, cow protection. This is Vedic civilization. A section of people, they are engaged in different activities. Not that a man is working as a carpenter and he's called, "Come on. You have to go to Vietnam to fight." This is not very scientific. He has been trained up as a carpenter, and now he's called to fight. That is not perfect division of... The fighting is required, but there must be a class fully trained up for fighting. That is kṣatriya. There must be a class of men simply for cultivation of spiritual knowledge. There must be a class fully for business, cow protection, agriculture. That is also required. Nothing is neglected. Just like in our body there are four parts; the mouth, the arms, the belly, and the legs. So everything is required for proper upkeep of the body. Not that you ask the mouth to walk or ask the leg to eat. How it is that? The modern civilization is defective. They do not know how to maintain society. There is therefore no peace.
Now, how much energy is there, a small seed. But the energy is so complete that it can produce a big banyan tree. Not only a big banyan tree, many millions of fruits, fig fruits, and each and every fruit there are millions of seeds. Just imagine parāsya śaktiḥ, the energy of the Supreme, how perfect it is. And so perfect... Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. The energy is put there, electric energy or spiritual energy is there, and automatically it becomes perfectly done. Wherever it is... As it is required. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. We, if we try to paint one picture of a banyan tree, it will take so much energy of us and days. Still, it is simply painting. It is not perfect. But Kṛṣṇa's energy is so perfect that within the seed everything is there, and in due course of time it fructifies and comes into nice, perfect tree. This is called Kṛṣṇa's energy.
We don't manufacture knowledge, because how we can manufacture? Perfect knowledge means I must be perfect. But I am not perfect. Every one of us, when I was speaking, because... We are not perfect because in our conditional life we have got four defects. The first defect is that we commit mistake. Any one of us who are sitting here, nobody can vouchsafe that he has not committed any mistake in life. No, that is natural. "To err is human." In our country, even a personality like Mahātmā Gandhi, he committed so many mistakes. So to commit mistake is not unusual. It is usual for any man. Then again, one is illusioned. Illusioned means accepting something for something. Just like every one of us, we accept this body as ourself, but actually we are not, everyone. On this bodily concept of life the whole trouble is there in the whole trouble is there in the world. I am thinking "Indian"; you are thinking "American"; he is thinking "dog"; he is thinking "cat"; because on this bodily concept of life. So this is illusion because I am not this body, you are not this body. Because at the time of death we can understand the body is there, but my relative is crying, "Oh, my son is gone." "My father is gone." Where he is gone? The body is there. Where is your father gone? No. Then we can... After death we can understand that "My father or my son was not this body. He was something else." So this is called illusion.
Suppose you are a businessman and you are doing some business. Now, it does not mean that because you are businessman, your perfection will be when you become a man like Rockefeller or Ford. That is not perfection. Perfection is that whether you are satisfying the Supreme Lord by your occupation. It doesn't matter what you are doing or what is your income. You will be surprised to know that Lord Caitanya had a very poor friend. In His childhood He had a poor friend. His name was Śrīdhara. His income was daily, in those days, five hundred years before, his income was, say, about five cent daily. And not even that. Suppose five cent. So out of that five cent, he would spend two half cent for gaṅgā-pūjā, for worshiping mother Ganges. And with the balance two half cent, he will maintain his family. So similarly there are many instances. So it doesn't matter what is your income, five cent or five hundred dollars. You must try to satisfy according to your capacity, the Supreme Lord. That should be.
General Lectures
This process of argument and logic, gymnasium, is imperfect always. You cannot realize what is the ultimate goal of life. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. Śruta means Vedas or books of knowledge. There are different kinds of theories and doctrines. So if you read those books, unless you are very nicely directed, that will create also perplexity. Śrutayo vibhinnam. And so far philosophical speculation is concerned, the Bhāgavata says that nāsau muni yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Muni means mental speculator. So you cannot find any mental speculator who is not differing from another mental speculator. So tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ, the path of so-called logic and argument, is not perfect. Then, simply if you study different books of knowledge, that will also not give you perfect knowledge. If you consult so-called mental speculators, their different views, then dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. The ultimate goal of life is very confidential and mysterious. And how to know it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Mahājana means the perfect realized souls who have realized, you have to follow them. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Therefore this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepting the mahājana, the authority. The first authority is Kṛṣṇa. From Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is hearing. There is no question about it. Now if you simply understand as Arjuna understood, then you have got the perfect knowledge.
When one is sufficiently trained and acts with submissive faith and love for Kṛṣṇa under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. At this stage (Kṛṣṇa) dictates from within. From without the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, and from within the Lord helps the devotee as caitya-guru, being seated within the heart of everyone. To simply understand that God is seated in everyone's heart is not perfection. One has to be acquainted with God from within and without, and thus to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the highest perfectional stage for the human form of life, and the topmost stage in all yoga systems.
"For a perfect yogi there are eight kinds of superachievements. One can become smaller than an atom, one can become bigger than a mountain, one can become lighter than air, one can become heavier than any metal, one can achieve any material effect he likes—create a planet for example. One can control others like the Lord, one can travel anywhere within or without the universe freely, one can choose his own time and place of death and take rebirth wherever he may desire.
The same mango. The mango does not change, but it comes to the mature stage. So this... As this example, the mango is in the beginning a flower, then gradually a little fruit. Then gradually it grows. Then it becomes very tight, green, and then, gradually, it becomes little, little yellowish, and it becomes fully ripe. This is the process of everything. In material world also, there are six processes, and the last process is vanquish.
This mango example or any other material example, we can accept it so far the growth is required, concerned, but material example is not perfect. Just like mango, when it is ripe, somebody eats, that's all right. Otherwise it will overripe, it will decompose, it will fall down, and finish. That is material. But spiritual is not like that. It is not finished. If you once come to the stage of mature stage of love, then that perfectional stage continues eternally, and your life is successful. Premā pum-artho mahān. There are many different types of perfection in this material world. Somebody is thinking, "This is perfection of life." Materialists, they are thinking, "If I can enjoy my senses very nicely, that is perfection of life." That is their point of view. And when they are frustrated, they find out, or try to find out, something better.
The same "I," one is false identification, and another is real identification. The real identification begins—brahma-bhūtaḥ, to know that "I am not this matter; I am spirit soul." That is the beginning. Even in that beginning understanding, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," there is Brahman realization, but that Brahman realization has to be increased. That means not only realize yourself that you are Brahman or spirit soul, but you have to engage yourself as Brahman and spirit, to work as Brahman. Then the perfection is complete. And how to work that? So long as you are inactive, your Brahman realization is not perfect. I have several times given this example, that if a diseased man is cured, the temperature is no more coming. That is the stage of cure. But that is not perfect stage of cure. When you actually work without any fever, without any disease, that is your perfect stage. Similarly, simply by understanding theoretically that you are not this body, you are soul, that is not perfect realization. Perfect realization is to work in Brahman stage.
Prabhupāda: ...but when you go to school, you understand it is many hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So your knowledge is always imperfect. You have to know from authority. That is the rule. If you want to know about the sun, you have to go to the authority who knows about the sun, not by your intuition, you think, "Oh, it is a disc. It is like this. It is like that." You go on speculation, but it is not perfect knowledge.
Young woman: When I go to the authority, and he tells me about the sun...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, wherever you go, first of all you believe that "Here is the place where I can know the real thing." That is the authority. If you have no faith, then you have no knowledge. You remain with your own knowledge. Go on speculating. Therefore the Vedic instruction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If you want to know that science, then you have to approach a bona fide spiritual master. There is no other way. You cannot speculate. You cannot manufacture. That is not possible, because your senses are all imperfect, your capacity is imperfect, so you cannot have any perfect knowledge. You have to get it from authority who has got perfect knowledge. That is the principle. So if you want to know God, then you have to approach a bona fide person who knows God. Otherwise, it is not possible. If you don't find such person, then you'll always remain ignorant what is God. That is the process. But there is authority. There is possibility, provided we are fortunate, we get in contact.
So don't be after these magical things. Just try to appreciate Kṛṣṇa, how He's great. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you follow what I say? Don't be after magicians. The magic, magician can also play very nice, wonderful..., so many things. But that is not perfection. Suppose if I can create by my yogic power two rasagullā or one rasagullā, what is the worth? A few cents only. Just try to revive your eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection of life. Then you get all perfection. Don't be after... People are after magical things. What magic I can show God? Just like the scientists. They are trying to create life in the laboratory, although they have not been able to create even an ant. Suppose he's able to create some living entity. Just like the scientist is very proud for inventing this flying machine. But just see how many millions and trillions of flying machines are flying in the sky created by God—without any machine. So you cannot surpass the intelligence and energy of God. Therefore you simply appreciate. That is your perfection.
Similarly, international feeling can be extended also. In the beginning of our life, just like a child, anna-brahman: everything he wants to eat. A small child, whatever he captures he wants to eat. Personal interest. Then, when the child grows, he tries to participate with his other brothers and sisters: "All right. You also take little." This is increasing the feeling of fellowship. Then he grows again, he feels for his father, parents, society, then community, country, and at last, international. Expansion. But in such feelings, unless the center is right, that expansion of feeling, universally or internationally or nationally even, that is not perfect. That is not perfect. Take, for example, internationally. In your country, what is the meaning of national? National means one who has taken birth in that particular country. Is that all right? National? You feel for another American because he is born in this country. Or any other country, Indian. That national feeling, that is called national feeling. You feel for your countrymen. You sacrifice your life for your country. But there is defect.
So Śrīdhara Swami also says mahatām api kauravya viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam ity adina. Mahatām. Śrīdhara Swami says those who are thinking that "I am liberated, I am very exalted," that imagination is also not perfect. Unless one takes to this process of loving platform, there is no possibility of being liberated. And Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān (BG 7.19). Jñānavān, those who are speculating on knowledge, they are called jñānavān, jñānī. But that jñāna, that speculative knowledge is not sufficient to give you liberation unless he takes to devotional service. They may think that they have elevated themselves very high by speculating process, but unless they take to this surrendering process to Kṛṣṇa...
- bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
- jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
This is the verdict of all Vedic scriptures. Mahatām api kauravya... Samyak saṅkīrtanād eva mucyate. Samyak saṅkīrtanād eva mucyate. Simply imagining that "I have become liberated," that will not help.
To understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, tattvataḥ, it is very difficult. Out of many hundreds and thousands of people one tries to make his life successful by spiritual advancement, by accepting so many processes, jñāna-yoga, karma-yoga, dhyāna-yoga. And out of many perfect persons..., or, not perfect. Out of many persons who have succeeded in such processes, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is difficult also. So without Kṛṣṇa's mercy... The conclusion is: without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is futile to explain Kṛṣṇa, to comment on Bhagavad-gītā, without being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. It is not that because one is very learned scholar or because one is very learned scientist or philosopher... Without any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible for him to understand Kṛṣṇa. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi (SB 10.14.29). Na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Others, they may go on speculating for thousands and thousands of years; still, they will not be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa.
It is diseased. As soon as the finger cannot give me regular service, it is to be understood that it is diseased. Similarly, any person who is not giving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is diseased, materially diseased. He has to be cured. Therefore the śāstra says, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Just suppose I am a great patriot. I am giving service to my country. That's very good. But I am creating many enemies at the same time because there are other persons who are also interested in their country or community. Therefore that kind of service is not perfect. That is service with designation because I am thinking... I am spirit soul, I am Brahman, I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, or God, but I am thinking that "I am servant of this country, this community, this society, this..." so many things. So one has to become free from the designation. Then his senses will be purified. At that time, with that purified senses, when he renders service to the Lord, that is called bhakti. That is called bhakti.
Similarly, transcendental knowledge... Just like I was speaking that there is a spiritual world. It is not the subject matter of our speculation. But when God says, "Yes, there is a spiritual world, that is My headquarters," that is all right. That is all right. Yes. So we receive knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the best authority. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. We are not perfect, but our knowledge is perfect. Because we receive knowledge from the perfect. The same example, that I am not perfect to understand who is my father, but my mother is perfect, and because I accept the perfect knowledge of my mother, therefore my knowledge of father is perfect. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for giving perfect knowledge to the human society: what He is, what is God, what is this material world, why you have come here, why you have to undergo so much tribulation, miserable condition of life, why I die. I do not like to die, but death is compulsory. I do not like to be old man, but still, it is compulsory. I do not like to suffer from disease, but it is compulsory. These, these are to be solved. That is really problems of human life.
That is his instruction. "Why so early? We can understand about God later on." No. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabham, "very rarely." "My dear friends, you have got this human form of life after many, many births." The modern civilization, they do not know. The university education, they do not know. The scientists, they do not know. There is a false theory, Darwin's theory, about evolution of species. But that is not perfect knowledge. That is simply an idea taken from Purāṇas. In the Purāṇas, this Darwin's theory is not new to the Vedic knowledge. It is a theory only. But actual fact is different.
Actual fact is described in the Purāṇas, where it is described, aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu. Jīva-jāti, different species of life. There are 8,400,000's of different species of life. Aśītiṁ catura. Aśītim means eighty, and catura means four. Eighty-four, lakṣāṁs, 100,000. Jīva-jātiṣu, there are different species of life. They are developing. Because after devastation, the whole universe is filled up with water. So in the water the first living beings are the fishes or the aquatics.
He does not know what is the soul. That is the basic principle of missing point of this material civilization. I talked with many big, big professors in Europe. Most of them, they do not know what is the soul. (aside:) That sound cannot be stopped for the time being? When I was in Moscow, I had the opportunity of talking with some professors. One of them was very interested, Professor Kotovsky. So he said, "Swamijī, after death everything is finished." So I was simply surprised that a responsible professor, teaching staff, he's completely in ignorance about the existence of soul. So that is the defect of the modern civilization. One who is not perfect in knowledge, he is as a teacher, he's passing on as a teacher. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Andhāḥ means blind. One blind man, he is trying to help other blind man. So what is the use of such advancement of education? If the teacher himself is blind, then what is the use of taking knowledge from him? That is going on.
Or by supplying foodstuff to the stomach, you serve all the senses of the body perfectly. Similarly, when you begin to serve Kṛṣṇa, then not only to the human society, to the animal society, to the tree society. Every society will be served. That is perfect service. And if you simply limit your service, that is, may be good, but that is not good. According to śāstra... Just like you simply water the leaves, the leaves will not live. They'll dry. But if you supply water to the root, everything will be protected. So actual service will begin when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), samaḥ sarve... That is samaḥ sarveṣu. And so long you limit, that is limited service. That is not perfect service.
And other countries they have got fifty-two branches—in America, in Canada, in England, in France, in Germany, in Switzerland, in Japan, in Australia, in New Zealand. All over the world. So now we want some of the young men to come forward to become really brāhmaṇas, Vaiṣṇavas. Our Vedic culture is divided into four varṇas: brāhmaṇa kṣatriya vaiśya śūdra. Unfortunately we are simply manufacturing śūdras, not brāhmaṇas. That is the defect of modern education. Śūdra, śūdra means paricaryātmakam kāryaṁ śūdra karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). After education, every (indistinct) is hankering after a service. That is śūdra karma svabhāva-jam. This is not perfect education. There must be brāhmaṇas who are independent. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, whose name is still, still celebrated, he was prime minister of Mahārāja Candragupta, but he was not accepting a single paisa as salary. That was the, formerly, although there was monarchy, still there was a council of learned brāhmaṇas and sages. They used to advise the king. The brāhmaṇas did not take part in politics, but they gave advice, instruction to the kings, rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayoḥ viduḥ.
Religion means to understand God and to learn how to love God. So here Arjuna, he loves Kṛṣṇa, he's a lover of God; therefore he's asking question from Kṛṣṇa. But whatever question is answered by Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect, because He is perfect. So our process of receiving knowledge: from the perfect. Not one who (is) illusioned, who commits mistake, whose senses are imperfect and wants to cheat. Because how an imperfect person can take the position of a teacher if he has...? Now so many scientists, we ask so many things, and they simply reply, "Yes, we are trying," "In future." That means he is not yet perfect. So if you are not perfect, why you are taking the position of a teacher? First of all, you be perfect. So that is not possible. Therefore, our process of receiving knowledge is from the perfect. And who can be more perfect than God Himself? That is our process of knowledge.
So Arjuna is asking from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And the answer, the next verse is: śrī bhagavān uvāca. It is not said, kṛṣṇa uvāca. It is said, śrī bhagavān uvāca: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead replied." What is that?
Then our life becomes pure. If we give up these four principles and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then we become perfect. How it is? You can see the examples. These European, Americans, they were accustomed to all these practices. That is their daily affair. But they have given up this. Now you see, how they are saintly. So the thing is not very difficult, but one has to accept the principles. Then one lifes becomes perfect. They do not know what is perfection of life. People are thinking that material advancement is perfection of life. No. That is not perfection of life. Because even if you make nice material arrangement, you cannot enjoy it. At any time you shall be kicked out. Where is your perfection? Suppose you have very nice apartment, very nice good bank balance, very nice wife, children. Everything is all right. But is there any guarantee that you can enjoy them? Is there any guarantee? At any moment you shall be out. This is not perfection. First of all make guarantee that "Whatever I am preparing for, very happy life in this material world, they will be permanent. I will not be kicked out." Then it is perfection. But there is no such guarantee.
Therefore this is not perfection of life. Perfection of life is that when there is guarantee of no more birth, no more death, no more old age and no more disease.
Our movement is not dry. We are simply asking people, "Chant, dance, eat nice foodstuffs, take prasādam and go home." It is not dry, because the same tendency is there. Everyone goes to the hotel, everyone goes to the nightclub, eats sumptuously and dances with musical instruments, enjoys the same thing—but in connection with Kṛṣṇa. You take prasādam, you chant, you dance and enjoy life, but in connection with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Your life is successful. That is Kṛṣṇa also saying, mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. This is the yoga, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—the topmost yoga. There are many yogis, you might have seen, for gymnastics of the body. That is not perfection of yoga. That is yoga, a kind of yoga, but there are different kinds of yoga systems, bhakti-yoga, jñāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, rāja-yoga, so many.
Kṛṣṇa, when I utter the word Kṛṣṇa, it means God. It is Sanskrit word, Kṛṣṇa. Those who are Sanskrit student, you know kṛṣ-dhātu, "attraction," "one who attracts." God is the Supreme Being, full with six kinds of opulences; therefore He attracts everyone. This is the definition of the word Kṛṣṇa. This Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the perfect person. We receive knowledge from the perfect person. When we receive knowledge from imperfect person, the knowledge is not complete. At the present age, mostly the scientists, they cannot give us perfect knowledge, because there are so many "if's." They say, "It may be," "Perhaps," like that. But this is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge means there is no "if," there is no "perhaps," there is no doubt. So we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect being. He says that dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe. Asmin means this, this body. You have got your body; I have got my body. So within this body, there is the proprietor of the body. Asmin dehe. Dehinaḥ asmin. Dehe means the proprietor of the body. I do not see you; I see your body, you see my body. But within the body the proprietor is lying, or he is situated. That we do not see. But we can understand. Suppose my beloved father is dead or somebody is dead.
He, God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "Out of many millions of person, one is interested to make his life success." This is not success, that "I can eat whatever I like. There is no checking. And I have got very nice car, and I have got very nice apartment. And I have got nice bank balance. So now life is, my, perfect." This is not perfection, because we are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Material nature is controlling. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). How the material nature is controlling? She has got machine, three modes of material nature. So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). They are contacting either of these three modes of material nature and thus being infected. We know that if we infect some disease knowingly or unknowingly-generally we infect unknowingly-later on that disease becomes developed. This is law of nature. Not that you do not know when you infected that particular disease... That is no excuse. You have infected yourself with this kind of disease; you must suffer. This is knowledge. Similarly, there are three kinds of infection, modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. So ignorance is no excuse. If in the law court you say, "My lord, I did not know that by stealing one is punished," that, the magistrate or the judge, will not excuse you.
Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.
So the idea is that you must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise you are drinking poison knowingly. Anyone, it doesn't matter what you are. Either you are Indian or Englishman or American or Hindu or Muslim, it doesn't matter. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. I may say, "Kṛṣṇa;" you may say some other name. But this human form of life is meant for this purpose, to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God. Not vague idea, clear idea what is God, how he looks, what does he do—so many things we have to know. It is not vague idea. Simply to have a vague idea of God, that is also good, but that is not perfect. You must know that is God. So how you can know God? The God is explaining Himself, coming down for your benefit. That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, "I am like this. You see Me. You know Me. I am explaining Myself." And still, if we do not take advantage of understanding God, then just imagine how we are drinking poison knowingly. How rascal we are, that God Himself is explaining before me everything about Him, and we are not taking advantage of this opportunity, and I am thinking I am independent and... This is rascaldom. You are not independent. You are completely under the control of the laws of material nature. How you are independent? So this foolishness must be stopped. That is the purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't remain rascals fools. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be happy.
It is not so easy to understand what is Kṛṣṇa or what is Godhead. Therefore He is personally speaking about Himself. There are many persons within this world, they are trying to understand what is God. (aside:) What is...? (break) When you want to study me by speculation, it is not perfect. But if I speak myself about my career, my position, they you can understand very easily. So the speculators, they are thinking that "God has no form. You can imagine any form of the Lord and try to worship Him." That is speculator. (break) ... Another type of atheism. The atheists, they say, Śūnyavādī, "There is no God." But these Māyāvādī, they say, "Yes there is God, but He has no head, no leg, no mouth, nothing." Means, indirectly, they are saying there is not God.
So tattva-vastu, Absolute Truth, is observed from three angle of vision—Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān—but all of them are the same and one object. So simply by realization of Brahman, impersonal Brahman, is not perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth. Similarly, Paramātmā-jñāna is also not perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth. When you understand fully the Personality of Godhead, then the knowledge is perfect. There will be no more doubt. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1).
So let us take this opportunity of the statement by Kṛṣṇa how to understand God, and we may make our life perfect in that way. Because life's mission is to understand God. (break) ...that the process is bhakti-yogam. Bhagavān also says in another place distinctly, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti... (BG 18.55). (end)
Philosophy Discussions
He has given force to the wheel. After the wheel is running, then so many pots are coming out. So nature... Foolish people are seeing that the wheel is moving. They do not see that behind the movement of the wheel there is a potter who has given force. So there is no question of nature. Everything is God, Kṛṣṇa. This is imperfect vision, that the wheel is moving without any direction. So this kind of knowledge is imperfect. Real knowledge is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you take it from Bhagavad-gītā that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ: (BG 9.10) "Under My direction the material energy is working." So the wonderful working of the material nature is not perfect observation. Behind the wonderful work of the material nature there is Kṛṣṇa, God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body.
Śyāmasundara: But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out...
Prabhupāda: But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there.
Śyāmasundara: So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That individual soul's force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Kṛṣṇa's force is still there, because it is combination of atoms.
Śyāmasundara: He says that which is manifested to our senses, which occupy space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. The physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature.
Prabhupāda: Physical nature is a by-product. Just like I explained that you create your body. The physical nature is subservient to the soul. Therefore, according to my desire, I get a body. I create a body.
Śyāmasundara: The common point is that they say the same time. They have the same time.
Prabhupāda: But the same time, gradually one clock goes slow and the other clock goes fast. This analogy is not perfect. Similar point. Analogy means there must be a majority of similar points. Similar point is lacking because the one clock is moving, you'll start the other one moving, and one may go slow or one may go at higher speed.
Śyāmasundara: I think it's like this, that the monad of the body desires a body like this, and the monad of the soul desires to inhabit a body like this. But they are separate entities, body and soul, and they work independently of each other.
Prabhupāda: It is not exactly the way it is. It says in the Vedic śāstras that the soul is the master of the body. Therefore how can you say that the body is working independently? This body, I am now liking to place my hand here, so I am desiring and the hand is there, not that all of a sudden my hand, by not desiring, it is coming...
Prabhupāda: Yes. By intellectual speculation one may get some hint, but not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: He says, for instance, that this pure reason or this transcendental reason is there to guide man to an understanding of wider knowledge, to guide his understanding to knowledge, and that the aim of this pure reason is to find the totality of synthesis, in other words, to understand everything. By knowing the ultimate reality, one will understand everything.
Prabhupāda: So simply by understanding that he is spirit, gradually he understands that there is a spiritual world. This spiritual world is full of varieties. Everything is there, exactly like this, but that is eternal and this is temporary.
Śyāmasundara: He says that this pure reason has a regulative value, that is, by attempting to grasp the totality of conditions by connecting a particular phenomenon with the whole experience. In other words, for example, the idea of a supreme being is a regulative principle of reason because it tells us to view everything in the world in connection, as if it proceeded from the necessary cause, or the Supreme Being.
Prabhupāda: The Supreme Being is the cause of all causes.
No. Faith, that is a compromise, you see. That is not fact. But this is good that he admits that we cannot approach the final God by our senses or reason. To have faith, that is also not perfect. Therefore the Western philosophers, they have created different faiths, and religion means faith. Somebody may believe in some faith, others may believe in another faith. But that is not factual. The factual is this: if we are actually convinced that there is God, and God is omnipotent, so by His omnipotency He descends. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "Whenever there is discrepancies in the process of religious principles," abhyutthānam adharmasya tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "when people become irreligious, at that time I descend." He descends for two reasons: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8), for relief of the devotees. Devotees are always anxious to see God, but somehow or other they are unable to see. Of course, they are seeing God, but at the same time face to face(?). So in order to give them relief God descends to be seen face to face. The other reason is that vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām: rascals, miscreants, to kill them. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa, Rāvaṇa, they are the symbolic representations of miscreants. So to kill them. Two things. So one may say that God is partial.
Śyāmasundara: No. At least he sees a purpose in the universe.
Prabhupāda: That's alright. He's trying to see in his own capacity; but he is not perfect.
Kīrtanānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break—after this Śyāmasundara is dictating a few extra notes:)
Śyāmasundara: In this regard, later Śrīla Prabhupāda said that a man who has fever and a man who has never had fever, they enjoy... When the man who has fever recovers he enjoys equally with the man who never had fever. Therefore someone who has fallen into the material world, if he is liberated, he enjoys equally with the man who has never fallen into the material world. Neither he enjoys more, for instance, that he has learned some lesson so therefore he enjoys more his freedom, nor does he enjoy less than the man who has never fallen. (break)
Prabhupāda: Well, everything is the expression of spirit.
Śyāmasundara: So everything is art?
Prabhupāda: Well, what is his definition of art?
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you do not know what is table, you cannot manufacture table. You have to ask what is table. You have to ask somebody that... You have got... Practically unless you see or know from some way or other how can you manufacture a table?
Śyāmasundara: Just like Albert Einstein, he thought about this theory...
Prabhupāda: Because he's Albert Einstein, he's not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: No, but he was able to conceptualize that the speed of light squared times the mass equals the energy of an object. And then he was able to experiment in the laboratory and actually find out that it was true. But no one told him that formula. He found it out through process of idealizing, ideas.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is, he is studying science. He is a scientist. You cannot say but he's scientist. He, just like the same you are seeing the mountain from a distance, you are seer. Now the more you make progress you see it is green, then more progress, "Oh, it is (indistinct)." The seer, because he is scientist, he is searching so he is making progress but all of a sudden a layman cannot see like that.
Prabhupāda: Evidence, that is all right. Evidence, we have also got evidence. Evidence must be there. As soon as there is evidence, then he should not speak anything of chance.
Śyāmasundara: Just like out of millions of frogs, one frog will be better adapted to living in the water.
Prabhupāda: That is not chance; that is plan. That is plan. That is not chance. He does not know that. As soon as he says chance, that means his knowledge is not perfect. Chance... If a man says chance when he cannot explain, that is evasive. Therefore he is not in perfect knowledge; therefore he is not fit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, that's all, because he has no perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Well, he sees a plan or a design also, but he sees it in...
Prabhupāda: Therefore if he sees a plan and design, then whose design? As soon as you call it design, there must be designer. As (soon as) you call a plan, there must be a planner. That he does not know.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the plan is only the workings of mechanical nature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We did not know it, that it was already there. Foolishly we say that we invent these things.
Prabhupāda: You see, the action is already going on. You see all of a sudden something comes. But that is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Then how do you explain that...
Prabhupāda: We explain that everything, the source, the original source of everything is Brahman, Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: What we are discussing is this doctrine of natural selection, or survival of the fittest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That natural selection, that law is made by Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: So there is a law of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. The scientists say that we do not know wherefrom it is coming. All of a sudden I see something and you say that invention. It is not invention. It is already there. You could not see before, and now you can see. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, what it is called? Participia principeology, or something like that, that is called.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) in question.
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: You must admit, though, being a scientist, that supposing you go down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, you see so many layers of earth going up thousands of feet, that the layers at the bottom are very, very old. You must admit, because the earth takes so many years to deposit soil. Even if it's only one million years, it's still very old. And in that lowest layer we find only evidences of simple...
Prabhupāda: So where is the lowest layer, he has gone? Where is it? Wherefrom it begins?
Śyāmasundara: The Grand Canyon is an example. That's a very deep canyon in the ground in Arizona.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What happens if there was no human beings in that area so that they don't find any...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean... That means you limit your study in one planet. That is not full knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: I just want to find out for the time being about...
Prabhupāda: Why time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point.
Śyāmasundara: Well, if you make claims that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet...
Prabhupāda: Why you are... I never said on this planet. By nature's way everything is existing.
Śyāmasundara: So on this planet there were not complex forms of life millions of years ago...
Prabhupāda: So maybe; may not be. That is not of the point. The point is that everything is existing in the nature's way. The species, as we say from Vedic language, 8,400,000, fixed-up. So maybe in your neighborhood, in my neighborhood, it is, they have got..., they are fixed up. But you simply, if you study your neighborhood, that is not perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: If you admit that you are imperfect in knowledge, then it is no use citing scripture. There will...
Śyāmasundara: But what I want to know is that...
Prabhupāda: ...evolution we admit. But your evolution theory is not perfect. Our evolutionary theory is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: But it appears that the evolution is from simple to complex.
Prabhupāda: That we admit, simple. That we admit. There is no difference. But you cannot say what is the simple and what is the complex, and what are the... You say something missing. That is evasive. Why you should be missing if you are in knowledge? You must say this thing is missing, that you have no knowledge.
Karandhara: It's just an axiom, that if any part of the knowledge is perfect, then the whole knowledge is perfect. If you have any part of the truth, you have to have the whole truth in the highest sense. So if their theory is at all correct, and any of the premises are solid, then why it doesn't conclude itself by its own logical deduction? Why it would always have to allude to something missing, some missing factor?
Prabhupāda: Practical means which is beyond your knowledge, beyond your capacity, that is impractical. So nothing is practical.
Śyāmasundara: How can I theorize there were other or higher forms...
Prabhupāda: You theorize partially, as far as. That is not perfect(?).
Śyāmasundara: If I accept your knowledge, how can I theorize that there were higher forms of life millions of years ago if I have never found any evidence and I have searched...
Prabhupāda: This is the evidence. This is the evidence. You have to see through the evidence, because there are, in the evolution there are so many species of life, say 8,400,000, they are all existing now. They are all existing now. Therefore why should I conclude that millions of years they did not exist?
Śyāmasundara: You say they are all existing now, but I don't see the dinosaur. There are no dinosaurs on this planet.
Śyāmasundara: Just like when you are dreaming, you may think it's millions of years, and it's only five minutes. You wake up and you've only been asleep five minutes. even though it seems like millions of years.
Prabhupāda: And actually, according to modern scientists, the law of relativity, so everyone speaks with his relative knowledge. It is not perfect. Everyone speaks to his relative knowledge, that's all. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity.
Śyāmasundara: There is also some scientific evidence that where there is land now, it was once water, and where there is water now, it was once land. That the oceans reversed...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we accept.
Śyāmasundara: ...so it's quite possible that if there were great civilizations existing, that they are all, all remains are swallowed. There's no trace.
Prabhupāda: That is, everyday you see. One day we walk on the beaches, and the next day it is covered with water. That is not very difficult to understand. But when the covered with water portion you cannot experiment, how you can say what is there within? Has Darwin gone within the sea, layers, studied the bottom of the sea?
Prabhupāda: That does not mean that there is no civilization. That is their imperfect knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, our so-called modern scientific stories, knowledge is so empiric it's now (indistinct) on complete proof. It is always stands to have objectionable work, sides; so it is not perfect at all. Just like from Śrīla Prabhupāda's book on the Easy Journey to Other Planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda mentioned the discovery of the anti-proton, by the scientists who got the Nobel Prizes in 1959, and Prabhupāda gives all information from Bhagavad-gītā, anything, is already there; Prabhupāda has said it. They say anti-proton... They just discovered the anti-proton, but they still think it is some matter, that is not..., they say anti-proton but still they think that it is connected with matter. But Prabhupāda said it is not matter, it is spirit. Differentiation between matter and anti-matter. Matter is material thing; anti-matter is spirit or (indistinct). So Prabhupāda comments so nicely about the so-called modern scientists to do further research on this concept of anti-matter. Perhaps they will come to an understanding about the spirit, they come to a point. Our knowledge is what you call a modern scientific findings or evidences always subject to changes also...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow the system of (sic:) ascending knowledge, knowledge received from higher authorities, they are not perfect. They cannot have any perfect knowledge, either research work with the blunt imperfect senses. They will not... So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect-dream. And when Kṛṣṇa says that "I enter into the universes," viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42). Now the weightlessness of the planets, the scientists describe in so many ways, but that is not very perfect. What is the cause of weightlessness? I have, what is called, (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: That because of the orbits, different orbits of the planets cause weightlessness.
Karandhara: Centrifugal force.
Prabhupāda: Centrifugal.
That it is, when he understands that he is not this body, then his unnecessary endeavor to keep the body in comfortable position without the, without executing the business of spiritual life, then he is kept in darkness. So when one understands that he is spirit soul, so how to elevate the spirit soul to the highest perfection, that will be the main business. So that is wanted. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Then he understands that "Not only I am spirit soul, but everyone is spirit soul," then equal, equipoised. Every spirit soul should be given the chance of perfect understanding, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then activities of devotional service. If everyone is engaged in devotional service, then he gradually comes to the state of loving God, prema. Premā pumartho mahān. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended perfection of human life is how to raise oneself to the platform of loving God. That is perfection. Otherwise it is not perfect society.
Everyone has got a different type of body according to his karma, either Brahmā's body or ant's body, so he is under material laws. So that is not the position of freedom. One has to become above these material laws. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). So anyone who has actually attained that position, what is the importance of Brahmā's body or Indra's body? He is not concerned with the body, just, therefore devotees are not interested to be elevated to the higher planetary system in the heaven. They are not interested. They are interested going back to home, back to Godhead. So devotee's position is different. Just like we can see practically our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have got so many members. We are not perfect, but still it is not our ambition how to become a Rockefeller or big rich man. This is not our ambition. Is it our ambition, like that? We don't care for this Rockefeller or big, big man. We want how to become a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You can see practically. Our endeavors, activities, are not like the karmīs'. The karmīs are trying "How many motorcars I will possess. How many buildings I shall possess." We do not mind, but we are constructing temples. That is for Kṛṣṇa's service. We are getting money by Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Prabhupāda: This method of studying the cause, so we take the ultimate cause of everything, with His full independence. The ultimate cause can do anything and everything beyond our calculation. There is cause, but the cause is so powerful that it is beyond our calculation how it is being done. Our knowledge is limited; therefore our calculation may be, may be or almost always, is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, he observes if a ball being hit by a bat, it always moves. So he concludes that whenever there is circumstance of a bat hitting a ball, that the ball will always move.
Prabhupāda: But the bat is hitting, it is caused by a living being. The bat is not hitting automatically. And not each hitting is of the same force. Therefore the hitting of the ball by the bat, it depends on the other cause, the man who is handling the bat.
Śyāmasundara: Then using another example, that every apple on the tree will fall, but when it is ripe, it will fall to the ground. There is no man involved with that. What about that?
Prabhupāda: No. That is his imperfect vision. We say that God is everywhere. God is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu cayāntara-stham. God is present everywhere, even within the atom. Now the modern atomic theory, they will explain from atomic theory about the falldown of the apples. But we say that within the atom there is God; therefore God is the ultimate cause.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, many conditions must...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these conditions are made by God. The same apple is hanging and not falling down. That means other conditions are not yet fulfilled. So therefore simply studying law of gravity is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: No. They all study that the fruit was not yet ripe, and when it becomes ripe the stem rots, dies, and then it will become loose and fall.
Prabhupāda: So that means there are other conditions. And ripening condition is also not an effect. There are similar other fruits also. Why are they not ripened?
Śyāmasundara: Well, eventually they will all become ripened.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the law, not in your hand. When it will ripen, your law of gravitation will act. And that ripening condition is not in your hand.
Śyāmasundara: But there are other material conditions that cause the ripening.
Prabhupāda: Whatever conditions they may be, these conditions are already there, made by God. You are simply studying some of them, that's all. Therefore your studying is not sufficient. Here is a scientist. He'll say. What do you think?
Śyāmasundara: No. He says that a unified pattern of things, that the universe as a unified scheme, neat pattern of things, is false because our direct experience informs us of a discontinuity of facts. Our direct experiences sees discontinuity of facts, so we must conclude that the universe is comprised of facts which are not perfect in unity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are seeing the universe by your imperfect eyes. So it is your imperfectness. Just like you are seeing the sun planet just like a disc, but it is not a disc. But because you cannot see perfectly, you are thinking like that. So your conception of the universe is imperfect, because you are imperfect. Otherwise, everything is complete. Just like Īśopaniṣad, pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). It is complete. That is the first verse of the Īśopaniṣad. But because you are imperfect, you are seeing the universe and everything as imperfect. The universe, because it is made by God, it cannot be imperfect. God is perfect, and anything created by God is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that...
Prabhupāda: Because you do not see through the eyes of God—you want to see through your imperfect eyes-therefore you consider this universe as imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No. The universe is not evolving. It is perfect since it was created. But because we have no perfect knowledge, you are thinking it is evolving.
Śyāmasundara: Because he... Because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity. This is his criterion for truth, that only that which I can perceive is true, or which I can experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What you can perceive, that may be wrong thing also, because you are not perfect. But because you have got a poor fund of knowledge, therefore you are thinking that imperfect thing it is also perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that... This is a quote...
Prabhupāda: Just like in the śāstras it is stated that the human beings, they are being controlled by the modes of passion, so they love to work very hard. And that hard working, they think it is happiness. Actually, everyone is working hard day and night, and because he is getting some money in return, he is thinking that "I am becoming happier." In exchange of a little money he is accepting that hard working is very good. But śāstra says that this hard working for some sense gratification is being done by the hogs and dogs. They are also working hard, and getting some remuneration for food and sense enjoyment. So that business is there already. So does it mean that a human being also works so hard, as a hog, simply to get his food and sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. The flower's experience. (laughs) Just see.
Śyāmasundara: He just calls this pure experience. He doesn't say whose experience.
Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect. He is speculating, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: Isn't everything we see a product of experience?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose experience? That is my question.
Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say, so...
Prabhupāda: He does not know.
Śyāmasundara: Whose experience.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's experience. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). This is the Vedic version. The Supreme is so much equipped with different kinds of energies. That energy means experience. You can apply your energy if you have got experience. You can apply your energy of drawing a figure, providing you have got experience.
Śyāmasundara: So his definition of reality is pure experience, or...
Prabhupāda: He cannot give any definition of reality because he has not experienced. He has not perfectly experienced, so how he can give the definition of reality? What definition he is giving, that is not reality. He has no experience. He is developing experience. So how he can give a definition of reality?
Śyāmasundara: Actually, he is defining the process.
Prabhupāda: What is that process?
Śyāmasundara: The process is to understand reality, but he is not describing reality.
Prabhupāda: He says that reality?
Śyāmasundara: He says that reality is the stream of consciousness or the flux of life.
Prabhupāda: A jugglery of words, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot achieve absolute certainty or perfection. So we must rest content...
Prabhupāda: That means he has got a poor fund of knowledge. He does not admit that. But we can say that because his knowledge is not perfect, he's saying like that.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that we must rest content with a faith and a commitment which helps us to face the future resolutely, reconstructing our environment to obtain more satisfactory adjustments. This is the Western philosophy in a nutshell.
Prabhupāda: Why not take directly the words of God? (Hindi with guest)
Śyāmasundara: He says that the idea of God is relative to the observer; that it may be something for one man and something for another. So there is no absolute certainty...
Prabhupāda: That means that none of them know what is God. That is the difference.
Śyāmasundara: His idea was that no philosophy can be fixed or finished or absolute, but that all ideas must be continually revised.
Prabhupāda: Because they have got imperfect philosophy. Imperfect is not perfect; therefore he is thinking of advancing further to make it perfect. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness he remains always incomplete; therefore imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that "All ideas must be tested in the laboratory of educational experience, where they can be challenged, their consequences evaluated, and where they can be continuously modified or reconstructed."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you see how Arjuna was perfectly good man, because he was Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was not willing to kill his enemy. He was hesitating, "What is the use of taking this kingdom?" This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because the other side, they were not thinking, but Arjuna, because he is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he was considering, "What is the use of taking this kingdom, by killing (indistinct)?" In other words, nobody can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No philosopher, no scientist, no sociologist can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Then you can't say, then you learn. Then you are not in the perfect stage.
Śyāmasundara: No. This is only the middle stage, he calls.
Prabhupāda: So the middle stage, so then you have to learn. You are not perfect, so you do not know. So one who does not know, his speculation, what is the value? Just like a child, if he does not know how the machine is working, how, then his speculation on this machine, what is the value of it? Without perfect knowledge, simply speculation, that is going on. The modern civilization, they prefer simply speculation without any basic truth. That is the defect. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And they have become leaders, philosophers, scientists. Bhāgavata condemns them: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās. They are blind themselves and they are trying to lead other blind men. So their leading, their science, their philosophy are practically useless. They cannot give any benefit to the human society. Childish.
Śyāmasundara: So if...
Prabhupāda: If you do not know, then why do you take the post of teacher? This is our proposition. If you do not know, sit down. It is better not to talk foolish. There is an English proverb: "It is better not to talk than to talk foolish." If you do not know, then don't talk. That is nice. What is the use of philosophically foolishly talking this and that and "maybe," "perhaps," like that, like that? What is the use of such knowledge?
Śyāmasundara: But he is talking about..., a man defines himself in this world without any knowledge, previous knowledge, and he has... All his knowledge is that he has observed that other living bodies die, or living entities die, so he has the anxiety...
Prabhupāda: No. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone has knowledge that I existed as like this. Then he becomes... It is common sense. So how he existed as a child, as a baby, as a young man, everyone can see. Any old man can see. So it does not require any high knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: He is more or less describing the position of most of the living material entities, that this is the knowledge they operate on, that they will die. That even though they don't die, but at least most people believe that they will die, so they operate with this anxiety and this dread.
Prabhupāda: So everyone is afraid of death. That animal is also afraid of death. Then? What is the special philosophy? This is animal, also they think, "I will die," he's afraid.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there are numerous possibilities to choose from, to become what we like. There are unlimited possibilities. We can become this or that. So that we can choose our essence, that the essence of a man is in his own hands. He can choose his own essence, what he wants to be.
Prabhupāda: That is knowledge. But if we simply take account, just like "I shall go from this room to that room, no more. I have no knowledge," that is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the world is not a container with a men inside of it, but that the men and the world are not separate. They are not separate. The world and the living entities are not separate. They are bound up together so that man and world are one encompassing...
Prabhupāda: What is the position of man in relationship with the world?
Śyāmasundara: That the world is the sphere of human concern. That a man finds himself in the world, so that he must become concerned with it.
Prabhupāda: Mm?
Śyāmasundara: That it is not that the world and the men are separated.
Devotee: Different.
Śyāmasundara: But that we are bound up together by this world's concern or care. Because a man is in the world, he must care for it, he must have concern for it.
Prabhupāda: Mm. He must concern first.
Śyāmasundara: Just like he uses another example...
Prabhupāda: They are called adaksi (?). Adaksi, simply that sense perception. That's all. So they are not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: No. But not... Behind sense perception he also proceeds to the other levels. For instance, there's a..., he has to distinguish between the phenomenon of a sound, of a sound, and the constituting or intelligible essence of sound. From one particular sound, try to understand the nature of sound in general—what is sound. He says the intelligence comes into play then.
Prabhupāda: Sound is a symptom of the sky. When there is sound, there is sky.
Śyāmasundara: So that would be the next logical understanding, intuitive understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Behind hearing one sound, the proof of that understanding of sound in general is the sky, like that. In an elective process, this is a process for understanding these things.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, his process is mental speculation.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to go to an intelligent person. He is not intelligent. Anyway, seriousness does not mean... Seriousness is intelligence, but that is not perfect intelligence. Real intelligence means..., seriousness means that he takes knowledge from a man who is better intelligent than him. That is real intelligence.
Śyāmasundara: So here, Husserl reaches the point of understanding, of observing, of analyzing the transcendental observer, or transcendental ego. He comes to the understanding that there is a spiritual basis for everything. But still, we're talking about how he reaches that point. So he describes...
Prabhupāda: Transcendental observer, that is sometimes known as conscience—something dictating. I reject or may accept. Something dictating from within. That is transcendental.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there are the phenomenological and the transcendental. The phenomenological ego, which uses conscience with...
Prabhupāda: Phenomenological ego means "I." "I am this individual soul." And transcendental ego is Paramātmā, Bhagavān.
If one has not reached to that point, his knowledge is imperfect. So how he can give us something conclusively if he has imperfect knowledge? Let him be philosopher or scientist; if he has got imperfect knowledge, what is the value of his science, scientific knowledge and that? His knowledge is imperfect. So our, our policy is we don't accept knowledge from an imperfect person. We have received knowledge from the perfect person. Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead, perfect, and anyone who follows Kṛṣṇa's knowledge, he is also perfect. So our policy is to accept knowledge from the perfect person, not from the speculators. Speculators are not in perfect knowledge; therefore whatever they say, they are all imperfect. Maybe to some extents it is perfect, but it is not perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But the child is not perfection.
Śyāmasundara: No. It's only a symbol.
Revatīnandana: (indistinct) The child symbolizes faith and...
Śyāmasundara: Love and...
Revatīnandana: ...natural devotion. Like Jesus said, "Unless you come to me as little children, you can't enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupāda: That's (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Even Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's often portrayed as a child.
Revatīnandana: He's eternally child, sixteen years old (indistinct).
Nara-nārāyaṇa: (indistinct) a symbol (indistinct) Nārada Muni, or yourself or Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct) symbol of a child. We have an actual person.
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the standard status of the mind. He doesn't know. Even the psychiatrist, he is also not in sane mind. "Physician heal thyself." Because he's identifying himself with this body, so he is also insane. So that treatment will not perfect. How a diseased man can become a physician? Therefore the English word is, "Physician heal thyself."
Śyāmasundara: So this Jung sees a positive aspect of psychology, not just the negative aspect, whereas Freud saw that the goal of psychology was to restrict or reach (indistinct) these powerful, primitive instincts then to mitigate troublesome symptoms, which is a rather pessimistic or negative philosophy. Jung says that man is capable of changing positively into something better by the use of psychology.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why he was making this propaganda unless there is chance that we will be better? And actually we see they are becoming better.
Śyāmasundara: So actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also psychology.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) That is the term of psychology. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: (BG 6.47) "Of all the yogis, the Kṛṣṇa devotee is the highest, topmost." All, of all psychologists, the person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is the most elevated. Transcendental position. Everyone is within the modes of the material nature, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person is above, transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
Seventy-eight percent. That is also very minute quantity of the characteristics and qualities of God. But Kṛṣṇa is full-fledged, cent percent God. That Rūpa Goswami has analyzed in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. We have given the translation in Nectar of Devotion. So God is person. Simply if we study man's character, then we can study also God, the same character. Loving affairs, as we also want to enjoy with friends, with girls, with parents, with superiors, with servants, as we take pleasure in these relationship, similarly, God also takes pleasure in these similar relationship. He has got five relationship primarily, and seven relationship secondarily. So twelve kinds of relationship, and therefore He is described, akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu, reservoir of all pleasure. That is His completeness. So the philosophers, they should try to understand, and very, I mean, analytically, what is God. They do not know God, and they speak of God, imaginary. That is not perfect knowledge. One must study what is God with perfect knowledge. That is advancement of knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: He says in a type of understanding that is direct, such as "This snowball is white," that there is no possibility of error because there is no distinction between what a thing seems to be and what it is in reality.
Prabhupāda: No. That is called direct perception. So direct perception is not perfect. It is no... Just like I see the sun (indistinct), but I see just like a disc. But it is not a disc. Therefore my direct perception of the sun is imperfect. When we go to scientific book, astronomy, then you can understand that it is so great, fourteen hundred lakhs, or fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than the earth. So this my direct perception, it has no value.
Śyāmasundara: What about the knowledge, for instance, "This snowball is white"? Isn't that a direct fact, this understanding by everyone?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The snowball is white, but it may be mixed up (indistinct) white. That is also very (indistinct).
Dr. Rao: Snowball is actually colorless. It is not white.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, sometimes after, he will not be accepted. That is my proposition. As Russia is not accepted now, some days after, he will not be accepted. Similarly, your also theory will fail. That is my proposition. Because I challenge that your theory is not perfect. Because Russia's theory was not perfect, it has failed. Similarly, I say your theory is also imperfect, therefore it will fail. Anything imperfect will fail. That is my proposition.
Revatīnandana: His propaganda is that it is perfect because it has made the Chinese people...
Prabhupāda: Propaganda, by propaganda you can do anything. That is different thing. But fact is fact. If you theory is not perfect, you make however propaganda, it will fail.
Śyāmasundara: But our people are all employed, they are all clothed nicely...
Prabhupāda: Temporarily it may be very glittering. Just like a polished thing, temporarily it looks very brilliant, shine. But in course of time it will become black. That's all. Because it is not actually shining. Gold shining and artificial shining, there is difference.
Śyāmasundara: He says that these class conflicts can be resolved through prosecution and repression of counter-revolutionaries at home, and...
Prabhupāda: That is going on. It is not a new thing, that in order to establish peace you kill somebody.
Śyāmasundara: So these governments, meaning American government or Chinese government, they live on slogans, on ideas, mental concoctions.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Mental concoction. They are not perfect. Perfection is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If they are intelligent, they should consider this movement very seriously and apply it for practical life all over the world. That will make people happy.
Śyāmasundara: So that's all.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Devotee: Is it not a fallacy to think that by adding sense gratification we will decrease the demands, desires for more?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Adding sense gratification means adding ghee, pouring ghee on the fire.
Devotee: Yes. But some has to be there as the senses, which they're denying. The basis of their ideology is that conflict brings about growth or progress. If they want a peaceful society, they're still trying to get rid of their conflicts.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means actually I am not perfect. Therefore what qualification have I got to give truth?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot give. You are cheating only. Because you are imperfect, but you are giving ideas to people. What right you have that you are teaching?
Revatīnandana: Suppose he says, "Yes, it's true, I will die. We all will die. I am just giving a formula for now until I die. Until we die, then we will do like this."
Prabhupāda: Then all will die. Those who will follow, he will also die, they will also die. So first of all, stop yourself from death.
Revatīnandana: They will say "That cannot be done."
Prabhupāda: Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?
Prabhupāda: Then he abides by the forces of nature. That is nature is superior. He does not know beyond nature there is another superior being, that is God. That is his lack of knowledge. That is the difficulty. If you are not perfect, where is that philosopher?
Śyāmasundara: He sees an intelligence acting in nature.
Prabhupāda: Anyway he accepts the superiority of nature, superior position of nature. He accepts it. So but beyond the nature there is a... the Supreme Personality Godhead. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Under My direction nature works. So he has no vision to see the background of nature.
Śyāmasundara: They term nature as the unfolding of events, as a thing in itself. They don't understand that beyond that is the controller.
Prabhupāda: That is lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. So these persons with poor fund of knowledge, they should not take the position of a philosopher. This is misguided, misleading. That is going on. Mental concoction, speculating, without any authority.
That is karmī. Their business—simply hankering, hankering. bankruptcy (?). And if they have lost, they cry, "Oh, I have lost it, I have lost it, I have lost." Two business. So when one becomes self-realized, these two things are conspicuous by absence: no more hankering, no more lamenting. The karmīs are hankering; the jñānīs, they are also expecting to become one with God, to merge into the existence of God. That is also hankering. The yogis, they are hankering after some magic power so they can befool others that he has become God, "I can manufacture gold, I can fly in the sky," and foolish people after them. Intelligent person will see, "What is this perfection? Even if he can fly in the sky, there are so many birds are flying. What is the difference between this flying and that flying?" So he doesn't care. So these are not perfection. But they, people, foolish people, they think it is perfection. If one can say that "I will walk over the sea," actually say it shall happen, thousands and thousands fools will come. Just as, the same thing, that there is a man advertises that he will show how he can bark like dog, people will pay ten rupees ticket and go to see how a man is barking like a dog. But he doesn't hear so many dogs are barking, creating disturbance. So this is going on. Some extraordinary power, showing, making one karmī, jñānī, yogi, but a devotee, he is so satisfied in the service of the Lord, he doesn't want anything, all this nonsense. That is perfection.
Yes, He is the cause of all living entities. That is Vedic conception. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief amongst the eternals, chief amongst the sentients, but unless He has got unlimited transcendental qualities, how He can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful? That is not perfection. A perfect conception of the Supreme One: He is unlimited, we are limited. That is sense. How the Supreme One, who is the cause of everything, He can be limited? I do not know what do they mean by "limit." He cannot be limited by anything. Even the impersonal Brahman, that Brahman, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: everything is Brahman, unlimited. Why He should be limited? Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: (BG 9.4) everything is emanation from Him and resting in Him. That is His impersonal conception. Everywhere He is there. And personal is localized, and..., but from the person, the impersonal effulgence come out. That we understand from the Bhagavad-gītā: brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. As the big sunshine comes from the localized sun globe—the sun globe is situated in one place, but this, the rays of the sun is distributed all over the universe—similarly, impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is that by His transcendental rays, prabhā, yasya prabhā prabhavata (Bs. 5.40), illumination.
Yes. Truth, through reason, that is... Of course human reason is not perfect; therefore revelation also wanted. So that truth arrived at by logic, philosophy and revelation, that is real truth. Our process is to arrive the truth through guru, spiritual master, and he is accepted as representative of the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead, and he carries the message of truth because he has seen the Absolute Truth through disciplic succession. So if we accept the bona fide spiritual master (as) representative of God and please him by submissive service, then by his mercy and pleasure we can understand God, the spiritual world, by revelation. We offer, therefore, our great respect to the spiritual master and say, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. If you can please the spiritual master, who is carrying the message of the Lord without any speculation, then God becomes revealed. Another place it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). When we engage our senses in the spirit of service to the Supreme Lord, then Lord becomes revealed. In another place it is said, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. The Lord is there, but one who is engaged in loving service to the Lord, he gets direct connection with the Lord, and the instruction also, so that the devotee may be able to enter the spiritual world.
Yes. The..., that is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that you are trying to live long, so does the tree not live longer than you? If you are trying by scientific method how to live more than hundred years or (indistinct), but the tree is living for ten thousands of years. Does it mean this is perfection of life, to live long? That is not perfection of life. So in this way, analyze all other living condition. When you come to God consciousness, that living condition is perfect, because by God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness you understand God—how to behave with Him; what is your relationship with God—then you become perfect and you go to the kingdom of God and live there eternally.
| Page Title: | Not perfect (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=85, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 85 |