Prabhupāda: We don't stop, simply saying, "God created," but how created, how things developed, these descriptions are there in the Vedic literature. That is the difference. Otherwise there is no difference of opinion. The Christians accept God created this world; the Jewish religion, they also accept God created this world; the Muslims they also accept God created this world; we also accept God created this world. So "God is the supreme; God is great," that is accepted by everyone. But the only difference is that we give details so that modern mind, who are advanced in education and scientific knowledge, they can understand, whereas others, they cannot give in detail. Therefore they are deviating gradually because the modern, advanced, educated persons they want to know how God created this world, and that description is lacking. But we can give that. That is the difference. Otherwise the primary principle, to understand God—God is great; we are small, tiny; we are subordinate; we are maintained by God—this idea is everywhere.
Muslim (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: When you go to a medical man do you ask him whether he is Christian or Hindu? I am asking you. Suppose you go to a medical man, do you ask him, "Are you Christian or Muslim or Hindu?" Do you ask him?
Guest (1): Me?
Prabhupāda: No, I am asking this girl. Why? Because your business is to cure your disease. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or a Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Similarly, you have to seek love of God. Wherever it is available, you have to take it. That should be the point of view. It doesn't matter where it is available. One should be hankering after love of Godhead. Love of God. Gold, somebody is after purchasing gold. It doesn't matter where it is available. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether you develop love of Godhead from this scripture or that scripture. Your aim should be whether you are developing love of Godhead or developing love of non-God. That should be the test.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Naraṁ caiva narottamam devīṁ sarasvatīṁ. Sarasvatī, the goddess of learning. And Vyāsam, and then Vyāsadeva, who is the master of Vedic literature. One after another. This is... Vyāsaṁ tato jayaṁ udīrayet. Then he is... He was questioned by the audience that what is the most important religion in this age? That was their question. There are many types of religious principles. So what is the best one for this age? So he is replying that question. Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maṇgalam (SB 1.2.5). "You have put very nice question, because you have put the question that 'What is the best religion for the people of this age?' " Yat-kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno yenātmā suprasīdati. "And you have, you are very much anxious to understand the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. It is very nice. By this discussion everyone will become actually peaceful and satisfied." So the answer, "What is the best religious principle?" He is answering. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). "My dear brāhmaṇas..." in that meeting all the audience were great learned sages and brāhmaṇas. So he is addressing them. That is the best form of religion which performing one becomes elevated to devotional service of the Lord. Not religious formalities. One has to test by the result. Phalena paricīyate. You are Christian, I am Hindu, or he is Mohammedan. That's all right. You are very good, I am very good, he is very good. But what is the result of your following religion? Have you attained love of God? Simply I go the church, I go to temple, and I do all kinds of nonsense, I have no love for God, I have love for my māyā and I go simply..., that is useless. Religious principle means... It doesn't matter whether you are Hindu or Christian or Muslim or anything.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think that the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant could serve as an intermediary to link the religious tendencies of, both of Christianity and Muslim religions?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Any religion. Any religion. If he's serious about religion. If he takes the religion as a scapegoat, that is different thing. If he wants to understand religion and if he takes seriously to religion, then he will understand. We want serious persons. Now, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, religion means creation of the laws of God. Dharmaṁ tu sakṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Laws of God. Who will deny it? Who will deny it? Any religion, Christian, Muhammadan or any. Who can deny that religion is the laws of God? Simple explanation. If you ask what is meant by religion, religion is laws of God. That's all. And if you want to know what is God, that is also replied. "The original source of everything." So one should try to understand in this way. But if one wants to remain in his compact ideas and does not want to go further, then it is very difficult. He should be open-minded and appreciating. Then everything is all right.
Guest (1): Pari nirvāṇa pose, exactly. Twenty-two feet he was, long. And it was made just after his death.
Allen Ginsberg: What I had understood is that like the Jews and the Muslims, the original first few centuries of Buddhist meditation made use of a wheel for the dharma, or a parasol, or a bo tree as the image of Buddha, as at Sanchi. But no, but no...
Guest (1): So long Buddha was living. After that, when Buddha died, they started making his statue, I think.
Prabhupāda: yes. That is the archeological evidence. Archeological evidence is that Buddha's statues were original.
Allen Ginsberg: The museum at Mathurā, I think, had the earliest human statues of Buddha, which are Greek nature.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no problem for Vaiṣṇava here in America. They are not trained. They are simply... Just like there are so many Christians. Practically they are not following. Similarly, these Hindus at the present moment, they are in name. Either Hindus, Muslim, or..., they are in name only.
Kīrtanānanda: There's no real substance.
Prabhupāda: No.
Kīrtanānanda: When one starts tasting the real substance then there is no problem giving up any of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When he gives importance to Kṛṣṇa he can sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is another state. That is not ordinary stage. That is transcendental state. Yes.
Prabhupāda: You can make scene that people, His disciples, are performing kīrtana and one scene you can make Kazi, Muslim magistrate, is sitting, and the brāhmaṇas, they come. "Sir, you are our protector. You are Kazi. You are magistrate. And this Nimāi Paṇḍita, young boy, He is creating so much disturbance." "What is that?" "He has begun this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is not our Hindu religion. He is chanting so loudly. Now this is the time God is sleeping. So He'll be disturbed. So the whole society will be vanquished if God becomes angry. So He'll be disturbed." So Kazi... After all, Hindus are complaining. So Kazi said, "All right, I am taking steps." So he sent some officers. And they were playing mṛdaṅga, and warned that "You cannot do this. You are disturbing here." That is going on still. Just like our Los Angeles, it is going on. In New York also, they complain to the Kazi, (laughs) police officer. But they could not do anything. So this complaint is going on since the inauguration of the saṅkīrtana movement. So Kazi first of all warned. Then He did not care. Then the police also came and broke the mṛdaṅgas forcibly.
Prabhupāda: Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "All right. We shall start thousands of men playing mṛdaṅga, and we shall go to the house of Kazi. Let us see what can he do." So He went with many followers, and many followers playing mṛdaṅga, and Kazi became afraid that "The people have become agitated." So he fled away. Then the people began to create disturbance in his garden. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Don't do this." Then Kazi came back, and Kazi was very submissive, and he said, "My dear Nimāi, You are in relationship my nephew." Because Hindus and Muslims in those days, although they had different religions, they had no animosity. They were living very friendly. So the Muslim elderly man will be said by the Hindus as Chāchā. And the Muslims they'll call Ṭhākura Mosai. Like that. Friendly terms. They will invite. In this way they were living. So the Kazi said that "Your grandfather, I call him Chāchā. He's elderly man. So Your mother is my sister. So You are my nephew. So do you think a nephew can be very angry upon his uncle?" And (chuckling) He said, "No, nephew must be obedient to the uncle. But do you think that uncle, when a nephew comes to his house, will not receive him?" "Oh yes. You are welcome. You are my nephew. You are my son." In this way the past incidences forgotten.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: We are fighting between the different religions because there is no Kṛṣṇa religion, no eternal religion, temporary religion. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu ," "I am Muslim." Therefore, to solve all the problems the Kṛṣṇa consciousness: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66). Take to Kṛṣṇa; everything will be solved. So they are reading Bhagavad-gītā but they do not know this. Therefore we have to preach. For thirteen years they are attending this Bhagavad-gītā class or Gītā Bhavan, but nobody knows that this is the Gītā, this is the fact. Why? (Hindi) You tell me. So Bhagavad-gita As It Is we are presenting, as it is. Then it will be nice. If you understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you'll be profited. If you make your irrelevant commentaries, that "Kṛṣṇa means this, and Pāṇḍava means this, and the Kurukṣetra means another thing, another thing," volumes of books and years together lecturing, what is benefit? You do not know the principles. Simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
Prabhupāda: Tiṣṭhāmi. That's it. Therefore a devotee's position is sublime. Kṛṣṇa comes as a devotee also. Actually this happened. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he happened to be a Mohammedan, Lord Caitanya's devotee. So in those days, five hundred years ago, there was some Hindu-Muslim... Still that is going on. So he did not enter Jagannātha temple to create some disturbance. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also did not ask him that "You go to Jagannātha temple. Who can check you?" Of course, if Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to go, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You must go." Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come to him. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. This is the practical. He came to the devotee where he was chanting. So instead of approaching God, if you chant, God will approach you. That is a fact, we see. Instead of Haridāsa Ṭhākura going to Jagannātha, Jagannātha Himself was coming to him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask and sit down, "How you are feeling? What you are doing?" Then He would go to take bath in Samudra. Daily.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We are preaching love of Godhead. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following. We simply want to see that he has love for God. Our bhāgavata-dharma defines: that is first-class religion following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion if by following that one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our...
Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am Christian." What is the gain?
Journalist (1): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either.
Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian actually follow. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian." In the Christian religion the first order is thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, every one is killing and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion, or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit? If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon. That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal.
Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion? That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious?
Journalist (1): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have a religion.
Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, "They say they are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: A doctoral dissertation, a Ph.D. dissertation, that when I became a devotee I was studying religion... (Break)
Prabhupāda: ...Hindu, or I may be a Christian, but the fact is that we are serving somebody. Either you be Hindu or Muslim or Christian or you may profess any religion, but you must be serving somebody. Is it not? So that serving is religion. Try to understand this.
Kīrtirāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just wanted to say I found the name of that Council General. His name is A.K. Ray, R-a-y. So do wish to do anything further with it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Now the soul is in this body. Next time the soul is in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I think myself American. Next life, if I get a body of a dog, then I think myself dog, designate. According to the body I create my designations. But one has to become free from all designations. That is called liberated stage. This is own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material modes of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation. "I am American." "I am Englishman." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am this." "I am that." These are all designations. So real perfection of life is without designations. And that is the real constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109).
Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa says, "The sunlight is Myself," what is the difficulty, even if you are pāpī? If..., don't... If you say, "I won't understand like that," that is another thing. But if the statement is clear, even if you are pāpī, what is the difficulty to understand? Simply if you say, "I won't understand," like this, that is a different thing.
Reporter: No, no, no. So how do you explain to a Muslim, he's...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say one after another.
Reporter: Yes, sir.
Prabhupāda: Don't make me distressed. So try to understand.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You have raised that "I cannot understand." What is the difficulty to understand?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...is only by Hindu...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hinduism is a foreign word, given by the Muslim. We don't find any word "Hindu" in the Vedic literature. Why do you call Hinduism? We are not preaching Hinduism. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Reporter: By such a social system, social...
Prabhupāda: That is, that you satisfy (indistinct). But this is a broad Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is broader than any system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not preaching. We don't go to preach that "Oh, we are preaching Hinduism." But because those who are accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, mostly they are Hindus, then you can call it like Hinduism. But this is not Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians.
Mālatī: In England there are many. They are from Muslim families and they are from...
Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside."
Dr. Singh: You're quite right, that is what the...
Prabhupāda: They have (indistinct) everything.
Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not?
Prabhupāda: Sab janta (Bengali). In Bengal there is called sab janta (Bengali). There are sab janta (Bengali).
Dr. Singh: (laughs) (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta (Bengali).
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is my philosophy. And it has become successful. If I had taken this position from India... I was trying. In India also, I tried. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are very respectable man, and people like you. You preach Bhagavad-gītā. You stand with your photograph. There is Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you preach Bhagavad-gītā? Now politics is finished. You have got independence." But this politics is so sweet to these politicians, that until he was killed, he could not give up politics, until he was killed. He was advocating non-violence, but he was forced to die by violence. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. He was forced to accept partition of India. He was so much baffled, but still, he would not give up politics until he was killed. On the day of his death, in the morning, because he had so many letters, so many secretaries, so he said, "I am very much useless. I want to die." He said like that. And actually, in the evening he was killed. He was thinking that "My next solace is only death," because he could understand, "I have created simply problems. No problem I have solved. I have simply created problem." He was a sane man. He could understand it. So similarly, everyone is creating simply problems, without solving... This United Nations, what they are doing for the last twenty years? Simply creating problems. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of solving problems. That's a fact. Any sane man, any philosopher, any scientist may come. I shall convince him.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say that I have got a different faith. I do not care for the laws of God. If it is a law... Just like, for example, here in the state, if you kill somebody, then you have to pay for it with your life. So if that is the law in your state, why a similar law in broader sense is not there in the courts of God, law..., law of God? You can avoid the arrest by the police and punishment by the state law by tricks, but you cannot avoid by tricks the law of God. That is not possible. If you violate the law of God, then you will be punished. If you violate the law..., just like if you touch fire your hand will be burned, so this law you cannot violate. Either you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim, if you touch fire, the law of God is that it will burn. So it will not care for you whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Christian. So law of God is applicable to everyone. Either you are Hindu or Muslim or Christian or you have got this faith or that faith, doesn't matter. So we have got such a God whose laws are equally respectable.
Guest (2): Yes but if that is the case, you see, then the Muslim Mullah, or whatever you may call, says, "Fight all non-Muslims."
Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim... It is not the question of Muslims and Hindus. When there is right cause for fighting...
Guest (2): But what I mean is a Muslim Mullah can say all non...
Prabhupāda: Well, why you are making...? We are talking of philosophy. That is applicable to the Muslim or to the Hindus or everyone. When there is right cause of fight, one must fight. This is philosophy.
Guest (2): Yes but what is the basis on which you decide whether a cause is right or wrong? There should be a common basis. You see.
Prabhupāda: Nice temple
Sumati Morarjee: This Swamiji's from there.
Devotee: This place has sent a Muslim, Pakistani family.
Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so you have come from Pakistan.
Devotee: Yes.
Sumati Morarjee: Which side?
Devotee: Lahore (indistinct)
Sumati Morarjee: I've been to Lahore. We had a very big office in Karachi. I've been to (indistinct) so many time. Next to, you know the (indistinct), the office area.
Prabhupāda: He was, he was paid for that running on the League of...
Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know.
Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League.
Sumati Morarjee: I know.
Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes.
Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy divide and rule.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. (indistinct) was made.
Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swamiji.
Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down.
Devotee: How is the Gauḍīya...
Prabhupāda: Now you have got enough place in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa, in Bombay. There will be no difficulty if you go by thousands to India. You can live very comfortable. So you can go, purchase, you can go and come back. We saw that foreigners, they visit, and gradually, there will be unity between the so-called Hindu, Muslim, all Kṛṣṇa's servant. This is the idea behind Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't believe in this skin disease. (end)
Prabhupāda: So, religion, very simple—I am talking with that man over there—religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one who follows the laws of God, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian, whether he is Hindu, whether he is Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take, for example, your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says "Thou shalt not kill", but I think cent percent of the Christian people, they are very much engaged in killing. So there are, I mean, disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think? What is..., what is the value? And if you disobey the laws of God, then what is your religion? It is simply show. God says, or God's representative, God's son, Jesus Christ says, that "Thou shalt not kill," but the whole Christian world, the killing art is very much favored. Maintaining slaughterhouse, shooting in sports, and creating (indistinct), and so many things, simply killing. And any film shown, when it is killing film as is very much popular. Shooting film is very popular. I see in your park the soldiers killing. This, this park I was passing. What is that park?
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. (laughter). Yes. So, what is our business with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? (child makes noise) (aside) This child will disturb. Our, this movement is that we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa. If I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then naturally I will be obedient to the laws of God. It is not? Just like these, my students, when, say four or five years ago, I came here, I had no student. I was loitering in the street. Nobody was caring for me. Now I have got hundreds and thousands of student. They can do whatever I order. So I did not pay them anything, neither I brought any money from India, but they are executing my order simply out of love. Is it not a fact? Because they have developed a love for me... The reason may be whatever it may be, but unless they have developed love for me, how they can execute my order without any personal profit? Therefore this is first thing required, that religion means to abide by the orders of God. Simple thing. And this obedience to the laws of God will be automatically performed if everyone loves his dormant love for God. We have taken this science. We are teaching everyone how to love God. If he thinks that "I have learned to love God through some particular religion," we have no objection. Either he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim or whatever he may be, if by executing the religious principles which he is professing he has developed his love of God, then we have nothing to preach to him.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ: (BG 14.4) in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is all. Simple. Now what is your comment on this statement?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (2) (Kulaśekhara?): He used to be a shepherd three years ago. He used to be a shepherd for some years. And, ah, he was with a Muslim man who was telling him about sac-cid-ānanda, explaining to him about the philosophy of sac-cid-ānanda, about the soul and the spirit. So in Spain—that's where I first met him—he said, "I may appear to you to be a businessman, but also I've been known as a shepherd."
Prabhupāda: So you can read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. You have got?
Ian Polsen: Yes, I have got Caitanya's teachings. I have...
Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Ian Polsen: I have Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break)
(break) We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that is all. That is our mission. You have forget... (break) ...understand little Bengali?
Guest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda:
- kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare
- pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes... (break) Especially in the Western world, everywhere attracted sex life. Mini-skirt so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways they want to avoid the after-results of sex life, contraceptive. The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there.
Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, they were spinning thread. Simple life and morality. No drinking of (indistinct) or tea, no smoking, and raghupati rāghava rāja rāma. This was his program. Hindu-Muslim unity. But all his programs failed. He died very dissatisfied.
Jayatīrtha: Why did they fail?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: Why was it the programs failed?
Prabhupāda: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like the Western countries. They did not want... Just like all the politicians, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their (indistinct), that's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know, you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated. So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them, all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy: if you don't like anyone, shoot.
Prabhupāda: Fire, mind, intelligence, ego. These eight elements. Kṛṣṇa says that "They are my energies." The things which are made by Kṛṣṇa's energy, how you can claim your property? Suppose a carpenter comes, you give him money to prepare some chair. The money is your energy. Now when the chair is prepared, he cannot claim that "I have prepared this chair. It is my property." No. It has been made with my energy; therefore it is my property. So if you make analysis of this whole cosmic situation you will find that everything is made out of the energy of God. Then how you can claim that "I am proprietor"? This is false. This is called māyā. Just like we have seen in Calcutta when there was a (indistinct) during the transition state. Britishers are going on. There was a great Hindu-Muslim riot. Now they fought, Hindus and Muslims, and they died. After death, they're lying piles of dead body. No more Hindu and Muslim. It is simply lump of matter. But because they got a type of body, a type of mental situation, consciousness, they fought with one another, and then after death, no more claiming "Hindu" and "Muslim." This is called illusion. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that"—these are all designation. Really what I am? I am pure soul, part and parcel of God. That is my identity. So people should be taught this science. As soon as one understands his constitutional position, his actual situation, then he says, "Oh, I am not this. I was struggling so hard under some misidentification."
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other...
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice.
Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions (indistinct). So the government have to lead the people how (indistinct), to supply also, in the (indistinct) of their materials for readings, and facilities for their, prosecuting their religions. This is the actual (indistinct) department.
Prabhupāda: Now how one can interpret that kurukṣetra means this body? This is going on. In spite of clear understanding, they interpret in their own way so that they have got their own philosophy, they want to support. This is going on. So if you kindly avoid this misleading interpretation, and if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you get the science of God, science of religion, which is applicable either to Indonesian or Indian or African or American, everyone. The science is appreciated everywhere. Two plus two equal to four, this mathematical science is applicable everywhere. It doesn't matter whether one is a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā is the science of religion, science of God. So if you take this book seriously, and try to spread this knowledge among your countrymen, I think you'll be very much benefited. And it can be... We are preaching that. We are the, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for one God, one scripture, one mantra, like that, for all people of the world. And we are happy that people are accepting it in that way, very nicely. And it is very easy. It is very easy.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Harmonize means... First of all you must know what is harmonization. Harmonization means that this material life means bodily concept of life. This is material life. "I am this body." Generally people think like that: "I am Indonesian." "I am American." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." And they take care of the country where he's born. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ, but this conception, bodily conception of life, has made the whole human society like cats and dogs. "It is my land. It is my..." Just like a dog. As soon as another dog comes. "Bark, bark, bark, bark. Why you have come here? Why you have come here." So this, this kind of harmonization is dog civilization.
Scholar: Well I think it's the...
Scholar: Are there Christian also, or Muslim also joining this...
Prabhupāda: What's this? Can't you see? There are many Christians, many...
Scholar: Do they have to be Hindus first?
Prabhupāda: Well, why you are stressing to become Hindu and Christian? It is that education for understanding the values of life.
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Hindu, Muslim. Any intelligent man will take it. Suppose if you want to be a great mathematician does it mean that you must be a Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan?
Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...
Guest (1): Indian National Congress Party, independent (indistinct) national pact with Indonesia ... hot.
Devotee: The Muslims wear the black one and he says it is very hot but this is cool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): ...nearly bald head, I cover with this...
Prabhupāda: Nowadays gradually, everyone is giving up cap. First of all, only the Bengalis were the capless nation. Now gradually, it has spread all over the world. Nobody uses hats or cap.
Guest (1): We like the cover cap.
Guest (2): You don't shave?
Guest (1): You don't shave more (indistinct) only shaving clean shave only (indistinct)
Devotee: You are asking me?
Guest (1): Yes.
Devotee: Yes. About every two weeks.
Prabhupāda: That is warned by Śaṅkarācārya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Bālakānām. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyāsī. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyāsī. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Prabhupāda: Bengal is now divided. East Bengal is now called Bangladesh, and West Bengal is there.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They still keep to the language, and they feel themselves Bengalis, though they're just (most?) Muslims.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They're keeping the Bengali language.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: India was divided, Pakistan and Hindustan.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. There's a great consciousness of difference of language too in India, which is rather new. In the past...
Prabhupāda: The two Bengals, they speak the same language.
Prabhupāda: Originally.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There's that famous... (break)
Prabhupāda: Pakistan is also now divided.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Also Indonesia, and they're... On the surface they're Muslims but underneath they're Hindu, there's been...
Prabhupāda: I have been in Indonesia.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: You've also... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Their culture is Hindu culture. But by religion they have accepted Muslim. They still, their names are Hindu names.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Names are Hindu. There Garuḍa, Garuḍa. The airway is Garuḍa. Garuḍa is the carrier of Viṣṇu.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I've seen their shadow plays, and all the subjects and the heroes are from the Indian history, the Indian epics, not from Muslim. So...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They all have two names. They have a Sanskrit name and an Arabic name, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I've also been in ...
Prabhupāda: And Java. Java, they are Hindus. Still. In Indonesia also, there are many Hindus. They have got their Vedic way of worship. They accept Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here.
Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for...
Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life.
Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Mother: Yes, we do that.
Prabhupāda: That is our...
Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I?
Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say.
Schumacher: ...but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Schumacher: So they let the Muslims kill the animals.
Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take... If the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal-killer.
Schumacher: Well, that is...
Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat if I eat the meat I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic... There's a Vedic verse that explains it.
Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But if you cannot describe what is that ultimate goal, then how others can be attracted? (break)
Yogeśvara: ...but in their society they have many different religions, many different groups, and they don't ask anyone to leave being Christian or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or anything like that.
Prabhupāda: So we are not asking in that way. We are asking, "What is that ultimate goal?" (break)
Yogeśvara: ...ultimately, by following a process that the Rosicrucian order gives its students, one reaches the goal.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Suppose if I am going to London. So unless I am interested to go to London, what is the use of knowing how to go to London?
Prabhupāda: From practical life, just like world's principal religion, Christianism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Mohammedanism also, the principle of not killing is there, every religion. Buddhism, they're completely for not killing. No circumstances, at any circumstances killing is not allowed. Similarly, in Vedic religion, killing is not allowed, but at circumstances, it is allowed. Similarly Christianity, they also say, "Thou shall not kill." Mohammedans also, they allow killing, but circumstantially. So the principle of killing is forbidden every religion, every religion. So the principle of religion is one. Take for example, in every religion there is acceptance of God and religion means to abide by the order of God. So how there can be two religions? There cannot be two religions. "I believe like that, we believe like that." These are man-made. But actual religion is that God is one and religion means the orders, the law given by God. That's all. Simple definition. Just like state is one, government is one, and to become good citizen means to abide by the laws of the government. That's all. Those, one who is abiding by the laws of God, he is perfect religionist. It doesn't matter whether he's a Hindu, he's a Muslim or a Christian.
Ambassador: No, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are Muslim, and, it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty. You cannot give up religion. Dharmena hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government's duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous, "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think?
Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible.
Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one has got faith and devotion to God, God is one... God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to... Not according to... This is the Vedic conclusion.
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
One must be religious. Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied. Therefore there is confusion, dissatisfaction all over the world because, because people have become irreligious. If you want to keep... In Calcutta, there was, in the American Consulate Office, I was invited. There, they have got a department: "Indo-American Cultural Society." Perhaps you know.
Ambassador: I heard about it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why Moscow? Everywhere. Moscow, they are, rather, good that they say, "We don't believe in God."
Ambassador: That's true, that's true.
Prabhupāda: But others, they say that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I believe in God," but he does not know anything.
Ambassador: I'm afraid most of us are like that, to be honest. That's true.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) I should say that Moscow are gentlemen. Because they cannot understand, they say, "Don't believe."
Ambassador: It's mūḍha-dhī.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Foreign powers, yes. So this is called ghostly haunted. So our material conception of life, this is also ghostly haunted, madness. "I am Christian. I am Hindu. I am Muslim. I am Englishman. I am German." These are all conception of ghostly haunted. Because spirit soul is pure. In the Vedic language it is said: asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The spirit soul has no connection with such designations. Just like in dream we see so many things. But it has nothing to do with me. So this is night dream. At night, we forget all these things about the day dream. "I am this, I am that. I am this family-member. I am his father. I am his husband." And so on, so on. At night, when dream, are in a different situation. And we forget everything. And again, in daytime, we forget everything of the night dream. We come another dream. So this is also dream. That is also dream. I am simply observing. In daytime I am seeing some dream, gross dream, and at nighttime I'm seeing some subtle dream. But seer, I am. Under different condition, I am seeing different things. I think you treats this madness. He's sees things in different way, in different positions.
Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dream. You are none of this. As much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take: "This is fact," sometimes we take: "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition.
Prabhupāda: His first inquiry was, "What I am?" His first inquiry was. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya? He said, "grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tāi satya māni." He was a brāhmaṇa. So brāhmaṇas are addressed as "paṇḍitjī." He was paṇḍita. He was very learned scholar in Sanskrit and Parsee, Urdu. But he admitted his fault, that "Everyone calls me as paṇḍitjī, but I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am. This is my 'paṇḍitjī.' Therefore I have come to inquire from You what I am." That is brahma-jijñāsā. Nobody knows in this material world what he is. Everyone is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am woman," "I am man." This is their... is their... They do not know. Brahma-jijñāsā. Brahma-jijñāsā means first to know one's self, self-realization, "what I am." And in the Bhagavad-gītā the first reply is given there. This brahma-jijñāsā. Because Arjuna was puzzled. He was thinking that "My kinsmen, my grandfather, my brothers, they are this skin, this body." So he was thinking, "If I kill my grandfather, my brother on the other side, what is the use of this fight? I do not like." But he was thinking in bodily concept of life. This is the position of everyone. Everyone is in the bodily concept of life.
Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different...
Guest: But, but...
Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Mohammedan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that no one is cheating.
(Prabhupāda and guests converse in Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Government's duty to see that people may not become cheated. (Hindi) Let me speak in English, so they can follow.
Guest: So they can follow.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are good, but mostly, as you were telling me that, that Pope is disgusted... Yes. Nobody cares for the Bible or the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian. Actually there is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don't blame only the Christians. The Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost all religion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually Prabhupāda, I read in the Time Magazine that Indira Gandhi, she said to one reporter her birth control program has not become successful because in Kerala there are a lot of Catholics who are opposing this kind of process. In other words the Hindus are approving of it but the Catholics are rejecting it, it looks like, to some extent. She says that because the Catholics in Kerala, they are opposing the birth control program so she has got trouble like that. She is completely atheistic.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed-Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service?
Prabhupāda: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate. Arcā means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, but he does not know anything more, who is devotee, who is nondevotee, what is the duty to the world, sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement. Then you become madhyama-adhikārī. Madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now... Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will be all closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you'll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close.
| Page Title: | Muslim (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 09 of Sep, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=58, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 58 |