Meditation (Conversations 1967 - 1975)

Prabhupāda: So this attachment, when it is perfectional stage, it is called love of God. Love is here also. Instead of loving God, we are now loving dog. Love is there, but when you are out of misgivings, you transfer your love from dog to God. These are the different stages to come to the... How do you attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness? These are the stages. So if we follow cautiously and sentiently these six stages of development, you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness automatically. (break) ...study. This meditation and breathing exercise is not part of our study. Because we are following a method which is direct method. I will give you the example. Just like there is a skyscraper house, and there are staircases to go to the top floor, say, hundredth floor, and there is elevator also. So if you take advantage of the elevator, you reach immediately hundred floor within a minute, but if you go step by step, step by step, it will take hours. So this meditation process is not possible at the present age. This meditation was recommended, according to Vedic literature, in the golden age, when the duration of life was very, very long, people were peaceful, there was no disturbance.

Prabhupāda: That is called kṛta-yuga, age of kṛta, very pious age. So in those ages people used to live one hundred thousands of years, and they were very pure, there was no sinful activity. In that stage, meditation was possible. Meditation requires certain principles. You have to select a solitary, sacred place. You have to sit alone. You have to close your eyes half, not full. If you close your eyes full, then you will sleep. And you have to concentrate on the tip of your nose, and you have to sit straight under posture, and then you have to exercise the breathing. If your inhalation is going this side, then you have to breathe this side. There are so many processes. So these things are not possible. Because our mind is so disturbed, we are engaged in so many outside work, it is not possible to concentrate on... You cannot find out a solitary place.

Prabhupāda: The so-called meditation going on in a class. That is not meditation. Meditation cannot be performed in that way. It must be very solitary place, sacred place, and you have to do it alone. You see? So these facilities are not available at the present age. Besides that, that meditation process will take you a very long time to realize yourself. So meditation is there in our process, but it is a very quick process. What is that? We loudly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even if your mind is diverted to some other subject, you will be forced to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have to apply your mind. You see? Either you take it, "Oh, somebody is disturbing," or you are enjoying, you have to, you are forced to turn your mind to this side. And if we go on chanting for a short time, the meditation is always there. And with the dancing, the breathing is also there, but it is a shortcut policy.

Prabhupāda: That policy, the yogic meditation or breathing exercise, samādhi, it is already there in our process. But we don't take in that prescribed way of meditation because that is not possible in this age. It is very difficult. So meditation and breathing exercise is not a part of our program, but it is automatically performed by this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... That is automatically done. It is so nice process. Then your next question is, "Is diet an important segment of the word?" Yes. Diet is very important thing. Just like when a patient goes to a physician, he prescribes a certain type of diet. Why? That's a practical fact. Why you accept a physician prescription of diet? Suppose a man is suffering from diabetes; his diet is different. A man is suffering from tuberculosis; his diet is different.

Interviewer: So many of the people are going to him for meditation. Is meditation part of your philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But meditation as this Maharshi or any other swami or..., are professing, that is not exactly the process of meditation. The standard meditation is described in Bhagavad-gītā. That is very difficult job. You have to select a solitary place, you have to sit in a certain posture, you have to regulate your life, complete celibacy, eating, sleeping... There are so many rules and regulations that that sort of meditation is absolutely impossible for the present way of life. For the present generation, the chanting, vibration of holy name of God, is recommended in the scriptures. It is said that meditation was possible in the Satya-yuga, when people were cent percent pure. And they are... For the present, mostly, people are impure. So they cannot execute meditation as it is described in the standard scriptures.

Interviewer: Is yoga part of meditation?

Prabhupāda: Yoga is a very broad term. Yoga means to connect with the Absolute Truth. That is yoga. Yoga means connecting link. So there are different varieties of yoga. Just like one staircase, it is the connecting link to the top floor. So that is, everywhere you can say staircase, but one who has crossed a few steps and one who has crossed a few floors, they are not on the same level.

Interviewer: I'd like to read one thing. This is evidently said by a man named Swami Śiva Premānada of New York's yoga center. He said, "If one has the time to put in about eight or ten hours a day for ten years, one might develop the power to see through a wall through meditation. I've seen people develop X-ray vision, but I've never seen the point of paying such a heavy price for it."

Prabhupāda: But I don't think it is practical that one can meditate for eight to ten hours or twelve hours.

Prabhupāda: But it is... Yes, for ten years. It is most impractical proposition. Therefore, as recommended, we have to follow the regulation as recommended in the scriptures. For the present age, this meditation. Now, last night we had saṅkīrtana in the public library... Where is that? Oakland. So all people immediately joined us as soon as we began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Immediately there is effect and there is no rules and regulation that you have to do this or that. Simply join, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... We had lectured in the YMCA Sunday School, little boys and children, they also joined with us. We performed this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the park, the children, old men, young men, everyone joined.

Interviewer: Caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami.

Caller (woman): Ah, yeah. I'm not involved with it, but I'm curious. I'm wondering if there's any similarity between meditation and hypnosis? In other words, the hypnotic state?

Interviewer: Or is meditation self-hypnosis? Is that what you're asking?

Caller: Is it similar? It sounds like it might be.

Interviewer: Swami?

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is self-hypnosis.

Interviewer: Hypnotizing yourself.

Prabhupāda: No, it is no question of hypnotizing. Meditation means to search out what I am. Just like if you sit down quietly, if you see your body, first of all see your finger, and question whether I am hand? You'll say, no. Whether I am this head? You'll say no. Whether I am this leg? Because everywhere I will say, "It is my hand, it is my head, it is my leg, it is my sole." Everything "my." So you have to find out what is "I."

Prabhupāda: Unless you come to that point, what is "I," there is no meaning of meditation. Then the meditation is finished. Now, the activities after meditation begins. Meditation is to search out what you are. As soon as you know your identity, then your real activity begins. So we take it from Bhagavad-gītā what is my real identity and begin our service. So that is called devotional service.

Interviewer: We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. We'll be back in a minute. (break) KGO.

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: But there is already adjustment...

Caller: (breaking in) No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I believe that the Swami and many others who practice meditation and study the Gītā are really dealing with the same premise, the first cause, that Jesus spoke of.

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Caller: Right?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Caller: Yes, that's what I wanted to know. I think there is a comparison, not between organized religion as such, but just getting down to the bare facts of what Jesus spoke about. I think there's a similarity.

Interviewer: As far as rites which you practice and demands upon you which Kṛṣṇa makes, what are any of these rites or demands? That is must you eat special foods, wear special clothing, special..., anything special which you put upon your face, sign, symbols, and also, is there any connection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the meditation of yoga or of Zen, and what of physical fitness? How does Kṛṣṇa consciousness look at this?

Prabhupāda: Our process is to accept everything which conduces to develop Kṛṣṇa's love. So those methods are given by experienced ācāryas, that "You just follow." Just like when a child tries to walk, the mother gives some direction or some help in a wooden plank, that "You try to move in this way. You will learn how to walk," similarly, there are certain principles given by experienced ācāryas. If we follow those principles, then we can work or we can go to the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Interviewer: What is your opinion of yoga and Zen? Do you incorporate any of their principles? Such as meditation for example?

Prabhupāda: Any principles of religion current in the world, they are all included in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any principle. But just like if you have got two millions of dollars, the ten dollars, fifty dollars, five hundred dollars, five thousand dollars, or go on increasing, everything is included there, similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect. Just like in New York there is a building, Empire State Building. It is 102 stories. So one who has gone up to the topmost story, 102, it is to be understood that he has passed over the fiftieth story or fortieth story or tenth story or all the stories.

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: Any principles of religion current in the world, they are all included in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any principle. But just like if you have got two millions of dollars, the ten dollars, fifty dollars, five hundred dollars, five thousand dollars, or go on increasing, everything is included there, similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect. Just like in New York there is a building, Empire State Building. It is 102 stories. So one who has gone up to the topmost story, 102, it is to be understood that he has passed over the fiftieth story or fortieth story or tenth story or all the stories. So one who has become Kṛṣṇa conscious, he knows everything, the meditation, the yoga, this practice, that practice. Everything is there. That we can give proof. It is practically. So we have to simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be included there.

Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) And a physician which says, "Oh, you cannot do this, you cannot do this, you cannot eat this," it is a botheration. So they want something. That is a fact. But at the same time, they want it very cheap. Therefore the cheaters come and cheat them. They take the opportunity. "These people want to be cheated. Oh let us take the advantage." You see. Otherwise, they are advising that "You are God, everyone is God. You just realize yourself, you have forgotten. You take this mantra, and you become God, and you become powerful. Whatever you like, you can control. And there is no control of senses. You can drink, you can have unrestricted sex life and whatever you like." People like this. "Oh, simply by fifteen minutes meditation, I shall become God, and I have to pay only thirty-five dollars." So many millions of people will be ready, "Oh, let me."

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Interviewer: Does your method include meditation, austerity of various sorts...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is austerity.

Interviewer: ...in addition to no alcohol, no drugs?

Prabhupāda: We don't mention any particular thing. Generally we say "No intoxication."

Interviewer: But that's a negative. I'm talking now about... What about the positive aspects of it? Because I have known some very wicked people who never indulged in intoxicants.

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Simply becoming non-intoxicated does not mean that he is a very good man. That I admit.

Interviewer: Does the method include meditation? What... How do you go about this process?

Prabhupāda: Our process is... It is also meditation. But as you understand by meditation, that concentrating the mind upon some super subject matter, the same thing is there, but we don't try to concentrate the mind artificially. But our, this chanting process immediately attracts the mind. Our process is... Just like Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. We chant it in melodious song. So mind is attracted, and we try to hear the sound. That means my mind and my ear is compact in that thought. Therefore it is practical meditation.

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Interviewer: And there is a great deal of the repetitive chanting involved then in the meditation? How much is preaching? Supposing you were going, you are gathered together to accomplish this approach to consciousness. What happens? Do you speak with your disciples?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Interviewer: And do they raise questions or is it a formalized ritual?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we pray to God to help us in the, our, I mean to say, preaching or chanting process. Then we begin chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma, conjoinedly, congregationally. And it immediately transfers the atmosphere to a spiritual feeling, and if you sometimes attend our class, you can see practically how the boys and girls, they become ecstatic and chant and dance. So after chanting and dancing for a few minutes, say, fifteen to twenty minutes, then we speak something from Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about theology and philosophy, ethics, morality.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Allen Ginsberg: In San Francisco, was it? Yes. ...have all been thinking what form of religious practice, what form of simple meditation exercises could be set forth in America that could be adopted by a great, great, great, great many people on a large scale. We haven't solved the problem. One thing I've noticed is that the Kṛṣṇa temples have spread and are firmly rooted and solidly based. There are a number of them now. So that really is a very solid root. So I think that will continue.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: But I'm wondering what future is there? What's the future of a religious observance so technical as this? So complicated as this? Requires so much sophistication in terms of diet, daily ritual, ārati, ekādaśī, all, the whole thing that you've been teaching, how far can that spread by it's very complexness...

Prabhupāda: Yes. All are complex. The whole idea is to keep the devotees always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the program. Gradually, we shall introduce more and more so that he has no scope to go outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: The yogis, the mental speculators, they are trying to understand the Absolute in impersonal, without any personal form. And the yogis, they are trying to find out Kṛṣṇa within their heart, meditation. And some are trying to find out the Absolute Truth in person by reciprocating love. So all these things are in Kṛṣṇa. And Bhāgavata says after explanation of that verse that it is the only business of human being to find out the Absolute Truth. Now, the next verse, the Absolute Truth is explained, analyzed, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Now, Absolute Truth is always one. There is no... Absolute Truth cannot be two. Then it is relative truth. Absolute Truth means one. So the knowledge of the Absolute Truth is one. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas (SB 1.2.11).

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 13, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Allen Ginsberg: What I had understood is that like the Jews and the Muslims, the original first few centuries of Buddhist meditation made use of a wheel for the dharma, or a parasol, or a bo tree as the image of Buddha, as at Sanchi. But no, but no...

Guest (1): So long Buddha was living. After that, when Buddha died, they started making his statue, I think.

Prabhupāda: yes. That is the archeological evidence. Archeological evidence is that Buddha's statues were original.

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Yoko Ono: We don't follow anything. We are just living.

George Harrison: We've done meditation. Or I do my meditation. I have a mantra meditation.

Prabhupāda: This is also mantra.

John Lennon: It's not the song, though.

George Harrison: No, no. It's chanting.

John Lennon: We heard it from Maharishi. A mantra each.

Prabhupāda: His mantra is not public.

George Harrison: Not out loud. No.

John Lennon: No. It's a secret. (laughs)

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: There is a version by Rāmānujācārya. Rāmānujācārya, he was a great ācārya of this Vaiṣṇava sampradāya. His spiritual master gave him mantra: "My dear boy, you chant this mantra silently. Nobody can hear. It is very..." So then he asked, "What is the effect of this mantra?" He said, "By chanting this mantra, by meditation, you'll get liberation." So he immediately went out and in a public, big meeting he said that "You chant this mantra. You'll be all liberated." (laughter) So he came back to his spiritual master, and his spiritual master was very angry that "I told you that you should chant silently." He said, "Yes, I have committed offense. So whatever punishment you like, you can give me. But because you told me that this mantra will liberate, I have given it publicly. Let everyone hear and be liberated. Let me go to hell. I don't mind. I have disobeyed your order. Let me go to hell. I am prepared.

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: "I am the source of everything." This sarvaṁ means Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. These are clearly stated. Brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭhā. So Brahman knowledge or Paramātmā knowledge is within Kṛṣṇa knowledge. If one has got Kṛṣṇa knowledge he has got Paramātmā knowledge, Brahman knowledge. He has got the effect of yogic principle, meditation, he has got the effect of empiric philosophical speculation, and he is situated personally in the service of the Lord. So if you make comparative study, then this Kṛṣṇa knowledge includes all knowledge. The Vedas also confirm it, yasmin sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavati. If you understand the Supreme, then all knowledge becomes automatically revealed. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, "Knowing this, you'll have nothing to know anymore." In the ninth chapter there is. So first of all we have to seriously study. Therefore I'm asking that to become serious student, what is the difference between Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān? Paramātmā is localized aspect of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61).

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: No, no. He said there is no use of books. Then why he wrote so many books?

George Harrison: But in Hrishikesh, when we meditated for a long time, one man got tired of meditation, and he thought... He made the excuse to read the Gītā so he could come out of meditation, and he opened the Gītā and it said, "Don't read books. Meditate."

Prabhupāda: Who says?

George Harrison: The Gītā said it.

Prabhupāda: "Don't read books"?

George Harrison: It said, "Don't read books. Meditate."

Prabhupāda: Where?

Discussion with BTG Staff -- December 24, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: That's all. Their ultimate goal is that if they can do something, humanitarian work, welfare work to the... The Vivekananda, or the Aurobindo, or this, what is called, the Russell, or Romain Roland, and so many, they are coming. And the yogis, they are trying to be self-satisfied by meditation. But nobody is concerned with God, or Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is concerned. This is the position of the world. So under the circumstances, our first business is how to awaken people from this illusory condition, that he is thinking, "I am this body," or the most well-being is taking care of this body or bodily relationships. So we have to take out from that illusory condition. So that should be the policy of our Back to Godhead. And the, so far the editors are concerned, they are supposed to know all these conclusions. Now we have got two editors, Hayagrīva and Satsvarūpa.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: So if one is contaminated by sinful activity—if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self—what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on. No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, āsana, praṇāyāma—the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help. The first two steps are yama, niyama, then āsana, then praṇāyāma, then pratyāhāra, then dhyāna, then dhāraṇā, then samādhi. These are explained in the yogic śāstra or Bhagavad-gītā. So this man, although born of a brāhmaṇa father... Now, here it is said that naṣṭa-sadācāra. Although he is born of a brāhmaṇa father, his ācāra, his dealings for advancing in spiritual life...A brāhmaṇa is expected to be truthful, to be self-controlled, to be fully cognizant of spiritual life, practical application in life, jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, to have complete faith in the statement of the śāstras.

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God...

Devotee (5): (indistinct) exercise and breathing (indistinct) some type of meditation performed.

Yamunā: He's social swami, a very social swami. He's very polished in a material way.

Devotees (5): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And smoking also?

Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices.

Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown swamis."

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Prahupada: So why not give everyone.

Haṁsadūta: Everyone?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Do you practice meditation in your center?

Haṁsadūta: Our meditation consists of chanting the holy name of God. Or, in fact, we are always absorbed in meditating because whatever we do, we do on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So our mind, which is the center of our activities, is always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. The principle of meditation is to fix up our mind on Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me. Become My devotee. Bow down to Me. Worship Me. Give your love to Me. In this way, you will come to Me." So if we want to go to Kṛṣṇa...

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Guest (3): What is the trance that... The meditation, trance enters. It is called...

Prabhupāda: Trance is... The actual meditation means concentrate one's mind on Viṣṇu form. That is real meditation. But now they have, the impersonalists and voidists, they have manufactured so many things, but actual meditation means...

Guest (3): Transcendental meditation. Trans...?

Prabhupāda: Transcendental meditation. The transcendental meditation means to think of Lord Viṣṇu.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: You can say what you like but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system. He said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). My mind is very, I mean to say, agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as controlling the wind. Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba..., vāyor iva suduṣkaram. And it is very difficult to (indistinct) high wind and if you want to control it, as it is impossible. Similarly I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control them is very difficult for me. So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible.

Room Conversation -- November 11, 1971, New Delhi:

Guest: For meditation, which form should we...

Prabhupāda: Meditation Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu form.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu form is the objective. So, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo. Viṣṇu-tattva lakṣa(?), very good mantra. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam, like that.

Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gītā...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Impersonalist: Meditation and action.

Upendra: Meditation and action.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever you do, you do all together. That is merging. But you are all individual. Your personality is different from his. His personality different from him. He is from you. But because you have got one interest, therefore you one. Just like we. We are so many individuals. But our interest is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are one. Try to understand what is merging into one. You are all individual. Nobody can be... It is not something material. We are all spirit soul, so we are all individual. But if our interest becomes one, then we merge into one. This is oneness. Try to understand this oneness. Oneness does not mean void, no. Oneness means when our interest becomes one; that is oneness. Real oneness means to be interested in Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Other oneness will not stand.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: "In the Padma Purāṇa, also, the same process is advised. There it is said that one should always remember Lord Viṣṇu. This is called dhyāna, or meditation—always remembering Kṛṣṇa. It is said that one has to meditate with his mind fixed upon Viṣṇu. Padma Purāṇa recommends that one always fix his mind on the form of Viṣṇu by meditation and not forget Him at any moment. And this state of consciousness is called samādhi, or trance.

"We should always try to mold the activities of our lives in such a way that we will constantly remember Viṣṇu, or Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Whether one concentrates his mind on the four-handed form of Viṣṇu or on the form of two-handed Kṛṣṇa, it is the same.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- May 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like expert electrician, the same energy, electric, converting into heat, converting into refrigerator. The energy is the same. Both places the electricity is working, but by his expert management, one is heater, one is cooler. But heat and cool completely different, just opposite. That is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate... (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Ah. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. Both matter and spirit, they are energy of the Supreme. So the energy or the energetic—non-different. But by His arrangement, one is working as superior, one is working as inferior. The same example, that the same electric energy is acting as cooler and acting as heater. But the energy is the same. Similarly, originally the energy is God's energy. So God's energy and God, there is no difference. But by his manipulation one is working as material energy, another is working... This is difference. Therefore originally it comes all spiritual energy, life. Therefore we have to take everything from life, not from the dead. Same example: The finger is first coming, life, and then the nail is coming, matter. Not that first of all nail is coming. You can study. This is meditation.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission.

Room Conversation With Three College Students -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Then yogi has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then?

Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses."

Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana place, sacred place, now, āsana, secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process.

Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish?

Prabhupāda: Just explain what is control, mind and senses.

Room Conversation -- July 19, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). Paśyanti, this word is there. Yoginaḥ paśyanti they see. Dhyānāvasthita, by meditation.

Revatīnandana: This is the Sixth Chapter Bhagavad-gītā? Is that what you're quoting?

Prabhupāda: No, this is in Bhāgavata.

Revatīnandana: I see. But that seeing...

Prabhupāda: That seeing is not ānanda. Seeing is ānanda, undoubtedly, but seeing and talking and becoming friend, that is higher. Friend or conjugal lover, father, mother. That kind of seeing is different.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is it.

Reporter: Right.

Woman: What about meditating?

Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation.

Woman: What about the other kind?

Prabhupāda: When meditation, meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Popworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bath full of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it.

Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation? (Someone comes in.) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: Sit over here.

Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher.

Room Conversation with Cardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cardinal Danielou: But you have a great interest in France amongst (about) the yoga, monk, Indian method of prayer, a great interest. And we, we think that the method of prayer are the same in the various religions. We have in Christian faith method of meditation of interior, interiorite, of silence.

Bhagavān: What is the, what is the program that Christianity has for giving people in general this experience that they're missing?

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Bien. Cest, nous avons... We have today many community of prayers where young men go together and in the monastery or in the... N'est ce pas? And pray together with alternative of silence and of lectures, of some text of the Bible and of the gospel, you know. Because we, we think that the life of Jesus is the model or the shape, and we like that Jesus is the manifestation of God. He is the way, the way. Because it is necessary to find God, who is hidden, to have a way, to have a way. And for ourself, Jesus is the way to go to the hidden God. You know, you know. The imitation of Jesus is, for a Christian, the ideal, imitation of his poverty, of his goodness, of his love of God.

Yogeśvara: He says the ideal of Christianity is to imitate these various qualities of Lord Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with German and Hamsaduta dasa -- August 9, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Get new light.

Guest: I would say another thing what I was. When I met the knowledge of Omkarananda, yes, I went back quite a long, five kilometers, a farm, I retired in a farm. And then I made this meditation. And then I read the book and I read fifty pages in five minutes without reading that. And then when that was finished, I was in other worlds. I could speak about high, other fields, which never I had seen, but when, when I came back I didn't know what it was what I saw. In other words, it was not dream. Absolutely awake. Other worlds, and then other sciences, higher, and higher and higher. I don't know what it was, but it is no of signification, I believe.

Haṁsadūta: It was not significant he says. He doesn't think, even though he experienced it, he doesn't think it's significant.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Knower, knowledge and the object. The object is Kṛṣṇa and you are knower, or trying to know. And the process is bhakti. That's all. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to adopt the process of bhakti. No other process. It is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). No other process. No speculative philosophy or meditation. It is not possible. So bhakti is the process, you are the knower, and Kṛṣṇa is knowable. That's all. (break) ...vādī, impersonalists, they say ultimately the knower, knowable and the known becomes one. That is their philosophy. Monists. There is no more knower, no knowable, the knower... Simply knowledge. They say simply knowledge. Oneness.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: "...and this is called arcanā. Everyone has a tendency to give something in charity. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Give it to Me.' And this means that all surplus money accumulated should be utilized in furthering the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nowadays people are very much inclined to the meditational process, which is not practical in this age. But if anyone practices meditating on Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra around his beads, he is surely, he is surely the greatest yogi, as substantiated by the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā."

Yogeśvara: (indistinct) there's that Prof. Kotovsky who was raising an objection. He was saying that your four-class system may work well in a simple agrarian culture like in India, but here where things are much more complicated, it would never work.

Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He cannot explain. (break)

Yogeśvara: ...it is undescribable because it's something that's arrived at inside through meditation. You can't really describe it in words?

Prabhupāda: Why? You are describing so many thing in words and the ultimate goal you cannot describe.

Yogeśvara: He says that many great masters like you from the East tend to smile at their explanations, but he...

Guru-gaurāṅga: They tend to smile when this question is asked, "Who am I?" So what can I say compared to these masters?

Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect.

Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So what is the process?

Yogeśvara: I don't care to talk about them here.

Prabhupāda: Then how can I accept it? I cannot enter into some vague thing.

Yogeśvara: All the systems have to do with meditation, concentration, things that will reawaken your consciousness.

Prabhupāda: What is the object of meditation?

Yogeśvara: (break) ...different objects, many different.

Prabhupāda: But tell one of them.

Yogeśvara: The body for example. (break) He says that there is "the eternal meditation number three."

Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: But you tell me, what is that process?

Yogeśvara: Well, "meditation number three" is to... (break) He says he would like to talk to you a little bit about a book he is reading which describes how the Russians have just discovered the soul. They have photographed the soul, he says,...

French guest devotee: No, no, the aura.

Yogeśvara: ...how they have, the Russians have found the soul and they have described all the different phenomena of para-psychology and extra sensory perception, and he said it's an incredible book, and the Russians have made great discoveries. He hasn't finished the book yet.

Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: No. Then therefore he can describe what he is.

Yogeśvara: He says when Moses saw the burning bush and he asked the fire, "Who are you?" The fire said, "I am what I am." "Who I am?" that's a question that you are going to have to answer by your own meditations.

Prabhupāda: But what is his meditation? What he has learned?

Yogeśvara: The thing to realize, which he has realized a little bit, is peace. And when you join up, you get a letter back, and at the bottom of the letter it says "With our best wishes for your peace and happiness."

Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Everyone wants that. But what is the process?

Yogeśvara: ...by praying, courage, by faith. A serious movement, a serious order would never guarantee instantaneous illumination.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Kṛṣṇa. And unless one is confidential devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect, confidential servitor, Kṛṣṇa speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. (break) If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Kṛṣṇa," then you are imperfect. Is that...? (break) "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation.

Room Conversation -- September 19, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, no, empty... God says that you can give Him patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can give Him little flower, little fruit, little leaf, little water. He is satisfied. Not that you have to give millions of dollars. But if you have got millions of dollars, and if you think, "God will be satisfied with little fruit," that is cheating. God knows, "He is a cheater. He has got millions of dollars and offering me little leaf, little water." He is intelligent enough. He knows that he's a cheater. People do that. Bhakti in the mind God, and for others, garama garama puri. And for Kṛṣṇa, within the mind, meditate. (laughter) God knows that "He is a cheater number one. He is preparing puri for himself, and for Me he is meditating." What is this nonsense? How meditation will help?

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) You are Indian?

American Banker: She knows the difference. She knows the...

Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy of Muktananda?

Lady: No he wasn't a philosopher, but in a way, he that meditation in the mārga.

Prabhupāda: That meditation, what is meditation?

Lady: I have not practiced that, but (indistinct) some dark room and...

Prabhupāda: Dark room?

Lady: And he makes you concentrate on... Some people (indistinct) something...

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But concentration. Best concentration in darkness is to sleep comfortable, no disturbance. If you make the room dark and go on sleeping, snoring, nobody is going to disturb you. That is best concentration.

Lady: What do you suggest for meditation?

Prabhupāda: We don't find anything in the Bhagavad-gītā that "You should concentrate, meditate in darkness." We take it as bogus. No religious system, even in Christianity, there is no such thing as darkness. Christian churches are very much illuminated. They pray. Prayer is there. The necessity. Why in darkness? That is his invention. Neither in Hinduism, neither in Buddhism, there is such recommendation that "You pray in the darkness." Therefore it is bogus. Not standard. Why darkness? Naturally, if you make this room dark, you will feel sleepy. That is natural tendency.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Lady: (indistinct) meditation?

Prabhupāda: The meditation you can do, just like we are also doing meditation, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. But meditation as it is, to absorb the mind fully in God's vision, that is very difficult nowadays, at the present moment. People's mind is very disturbed. They cannot actually meditate. Therefore in this age, meditation, chanting the holy name of the Lord, that is recommended, congregationally. Just like we do, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... So there is no need of dark room. Just like this boy. He is also a responsible officer in New York. He is also chanting. All these sannyāsīs. And we have got all these beads. So there is no need of meditating in darkness. We are going on the open street. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... There is no difficulty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they use transcendental meditation...

Prabhupāda: What is this transcendental meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all.

Bali Mardana: There's nothing transcendental about it.

Yaśomatīnandana: But they call it "transcendental."

Prabhupāda: They can call anything. Just like... Just like...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have...

Hṛdayānanda: But the, but the sincere people don't believe it. When we go to the colleges, many students come to us and say, "These people are cheating us." They know it.

Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, transcendental meditation.

Satsvarūpa: Creative Intelligence.

Bali Mardana: Psychological.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it has been accepted all over the country.

Hṛdayānanda: Not by the intelligent.

Bali Mardana: They're tricking the government.

Prabhupāda: Not... I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do they say "all over the country"?

Bali Mardana: They've made...

Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that.

Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.

Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"?

Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.

Prabhupāda: No,...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are saying...

Prabhupāda: Even an animal, the blood circulation is better. Therefore he's better than transcendental meditation. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that, uh...

Prabhupāda: If the transcendental meditation is concerned with the blood circulation, you'll find in the animals, the blood circulation is first-class. Therefore above transcendental.

Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for that reason.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, actually, transcendental meditation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these people are saying that if I compare with a man who is practicing transcendental meditation with a normal man, then... They compare different, these tests, they're called physiological tests.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That physiological test, you can do between man and animal. The animal will be found better. Their circulation of blood is most natural.

Karandhara: Also the state of mind which they claim is beneficial, the same state of mind can be reached more quickly by smoking opium.

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.

Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the...

Prabhupāda: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.

Hṛdayānanda: You're right, Prabhupāda. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said, "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away.