Medicine (Conversations - November, 1977)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, most of this traveling that we're going to do, you will be laying down.

Prabhupāda: That laying down and this laying down, that is different?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, then we have to think of what the alternative is. Staying here means being subject to the possible care of this assistant who you saw the other day, 'cause this kavirāja will not wait any longer. He can't stay here any longer. We can try and convince him to stay, but I don't know how successful we will be. And he may give his medicines, but if some unforeseen difficulty develops, then it means that we are under the care of this other person.

Bhavānanda: This palanquin parikrama is very rough. You're bouncing up and down. You're going swinging sideways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside:) It's not as rough as traveling to Māyāpur, though, not one tenth as rough or one fiftieth. You know, all you got to do is go on a rough road. It's nothing. This palanquin is smooth compared to that, going slowly and being carried. I think the main point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we have to consider going as opposed to staying here with the possibility of being at the..., under the care of this other kavirāja. That to me is the choice. This kavirāja will give medicines... First of all, we can try to convince him to stay, but failing that, he's giving a series of medicines which he expects will be proper according to the condition. But naturally the condition can change on any date. Then what will we do?

Prabhupāda: I say no medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No medicine. We should reject this kavirāja.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Brahmānanda: Yadubara was asking how much time the kavirāja would stay with you in Māyāpur.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every few days he'll be there, every two days, every three days.

Yadubara: He said like that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's prepared to do that.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is there some... You're feeling some bad effect from these medicines that you want to reject them? (pause)

Prabhupāda: At least there is risk of life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By traveling.

Prabhupāda: I see that.

Prabhupāda: No. Provided you reach there. There is survival or whatever it may be, but whether there is arrival? The best thing is no medicine and kindly give me some (sic:) circumambulation and leave me to the fate.

Bhakti-caru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, don't you think that the medicine is working, is having some good effect?

Prabhupāda: If it is working, then why I'm not feeling any strength?

Bhakti-caru: That will come slowly, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That means I have to take the medicine and not that risking. The best thing is, whatever service you can give, you arrange. Leave me without medicine.

Bhavānanda: Why is that the best thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is that the best thing?

Bhakti-caru: Actually the kavirāja has left it up to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the way you have cured your cough and cold in just a day, in just a few hours' time, the same way you can cure all your disease if you want, just yourself, without any medicine. At the same time, you dreamt this Rāmānuja kavirāja giving you the medicine, and ever since you started taking the medicines there has been some good effect, like you started passing more urine, you started getting a little appetite, little taste, your swelling has gone down, to some extent.

Prabhupāda: Swelling has not... (long silence)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? About two days ago you said that either the kavirāja should stay here or we should go with him. So why should we change that idea?

Prabhupāda: Even half hour, if I am fainting... So if I die without medicine, without kavirāja, what is the harm? Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: According to the kavirāja, his treatment is that first of all he has to take care of your liver and kidneys before giving you strength. He said there's no question of you getting any strength until your liver and kidneys are healed.

Prabhupāda: So take the medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the first part of his cure is to help your liver and kidneys. Then, when they are functioning properly, you'll be able to eat and other things which will automatically give strength. Medicine will not give strength, but medicine can cure the organs which are now not working properly.

Prabhupāda: No, you take medicine from him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That was his proposal. His proposal was that you take medicine, and then after ten or fifteen days, you may have enough strength... And he was going to come back and then take you to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The only reason that we were hesitant was because if something along the way happens, had he been here, he could have adjusted the medicine to suit the particular needs. Now, not being here, we'll have to depend upon this assistant in case something changes. If nothing changes, then there's no harm. But if something should suddenly alter...

Prabhupāda: So why call Māyāpur? Let him supply the medicine from Calcutta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supply the medicine from Calcutta. Well, he said he can give enough medicine now to last I think for about another ten days. Even now.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. The main medicine, we have the supply for ten days already, that, the one that he distilled yesterday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, we can still try and convince him not to go. That would be the best thing.

Prabhupāda: No, he's staying, but actually you are administering his medicine. It doesn't require...

Bhakti-caru: His presence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Providing everything goes according to his plan. Yes, his presence is simply an encouragement, not necessarily a necessity so far.

Prabhupāda: If he cannot stay, let his medicine remain and let him go. But if you think that I am burden now...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not what we think. We will never think that. There will never come that time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why whispering?" Upendra was saying that not going is all right, but the fact that you are rejecting medicine, that is not good. So I was saying that I don't really think that you're rejecting the medicine, but you're taking that position so that we settle in between. (laughing) I can understand that you appreciate that the medicine is doing some good, but in order to get us to agree...

Brahmānanda: It is you who were saying that by Prabhupāda's not going, then we're at a loss for medicine. So then Prabhupāda said, "All right, then no medicine."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Also Prabhupāda's saying no medicine so that if we say, "All right, stay, but take the medicine," then Prabhupāda will...

Bhakti-caru: He'll agree to that, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Transcendental bargaining. (laughs) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have seen you dealing with the most tricky people in the world. I saw you dealing with that Mr. Nair, and then with that other man, Mr. Ratnaparki? So I can understand that when you say, (laughs) "No medicine at all," that we will then simply say, "Well, please, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just take medicine and then you stay here," and you'll say, "All right." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want simply once parikrama.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, one time around. Not many times.

Prabhupāda: No, no. As I am doing, that much. Medicine, no medicine...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually we're also wanting you to do parikrama, but we would..., one day we are hoping to see you walking the parikrama.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. For the time being, if by parikrama, fainting, dying, that is a glorious. That I want. Will it be great burden?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. That's not the question, of burden. The only thing is that we want you to get better. There's no question of burden.

Prabhupāda: No, no, better...

Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara has not yet...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Viśvambhara has not come yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean for the past few days you've been saying that you want to live. Now suddenly you say that you want to die. Maybe that's simply to discourage us from... Because you feel too weak now. There's so many conflicting...

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: Do you understand? He's saying that "As a physician, in this condition, I wouldn't advise you to go. But if you desire to go there, then I have enough confidence in my medicine, and since you have the will, so I can assure you I can take you over there safely. Now it's up to you whether you want to go or whether you want to stay." He's saying that if you stay here for ten more days, then you'll become strong enough and you can travel. And he's willing to come back again after about a week, and then he'll stay here for a day or two and then take him.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that's a good idea. Don't you, Mahārāja?

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that... Śrīla Prabhupāda wants to stay here, but we want him to take...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to stay here, that's a fact.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: (Hindi)

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: He's saying that now his medicine started working. So he'll give one day's medicine, and he's confident that that medicine will work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One day's?

Bhakti-caru: Seven days. And apart from that, he's saying that that boy, he has got confidence in him that whatever instruction he gives, he will follow. He is going to follow that, not like other physicians. He wouldn't try to administer his own medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's pretty insistent.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So is this all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we'll wait here for another week to ten days, and Shastriji will give us medicine. The kavirāja will give us medicine, and you can take it for another week or so. After a week's time he'll come back, and then, after a few days, he'll take you to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: At least at present this decision will be good.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For about ten days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've never seen this possible, though. (laughter) You always speak of Kṛṣṇa. That is your life and soul, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. He says if you insist on going on parikrama, then he will give you a little medicine which will help you.

Prabhupāda: Parikrama must be there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right.

Prabhupada Vigil -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So what is to be done now?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is to be done now? Well, we're going to stay here for ten days or so, and you'll get better. When you get stronger, then we can attempt this trip. We have to hope that you'll get stronger now. Did you take all the medicine, Bhakti-caru, from the kavirāja?

Bhakti-caru: Yes. He made all the medicines till eleven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: So we shall wait. We shall wait.

Bhavānanda: Many handloomers. So we have designs to expand that into a very large area, and most of it will be exported to our temples and devotees all around the world. And all of the handloom workers, they're devotees so they don't take any salary. None of us take any salary. And they get nice rooming and full prasādam and their children are educated. All medicine, everything is supplied to them.

Śrī Nārāyaṇa: You could also, perhaps, introduce this new spinning wheel for the yarn. At present you must be purchasing yarn from the mills.

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Śrī Nārāyaṇa: But have you seen this small nice carakā, spinning wheel?

Bhavānanda: Well, we do our own spinning.

Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Spinning also?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a gradual recovery, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We can't expect suddenly that overnight there will be recovery. I feel finally that we've understood a little bit what has been the difficulty. I really think this kavirāja has had a little understanding like that. And I think that this Ayurvedic medicine can effect a gradual change for the better. Let us try. We're trying now. We're patient, and if you'll be patient also, then I think we'll see a good change. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: What can be done?

Jagadīśa: Do you feel better, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Little more strength?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the strength is not supposed to come yet. You shouldn't expect strength yet, because strength can't come unless you eat. There's no reason for him to feel strong, because he isn't eating yet. The kavirāja explained that in order for Prabhupāda to eat, first of all the liver and the kidneys have to be properly healed. Then automatically there will be appetite. If there's appetite, then Prabhupāda will eat. (break)

Prabhupāda: What happened?

Gaura-govinda: He suffered from fever. He had some fever, high fever. So he fell unconscious. The doctor came and gave some medicine. The fever was checked, but he gave some high-power medicines that affected his brain, and so he couldn't speak. He just collapsed and stayed still. We came to the hospital that night. Doctor tried his best. He gave saline and oxygen. He stayed the whole night, but at the daybreak he passed away, when the morning came, just on the morning, 23rd morning. It was ekādaśī day. That day he passed away. The day Bhāgavata reached. The very moment Bhāgavata reached there, he passed away.

Prabhupāda: Doctor gives treatment, not reliable. They make experiment.

Gaura-govinda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Then we take the Taj Express, which is nonstop to Delhi, then stay in the Delhi temple, which is also nice, overnight, and then we proceed on to Calcutta. The next morning we leave on the plane at six-thirty in the morning and we arrive in Calcutta by about eight-thirty, and we should arrive in Māyāpur by noon. Does it sound like a good plan? Now you simply should gain more and more strength, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This time, until the kavirāja comes, from now until then, you should rest as much as possible, take these medicines. I think it's having a positive effect. You mentioned this morning that when you sit up you feel a little stronger now. I think it's good that you're not taxing yourself in any way. That's important. Would you like to do something specific right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: What shall I do? (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Upendra's saying you might like to wash now your face and teeth. When does Prabhupāda wash his body?

Upendra: Two, approximately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "I am a fallen wretch, but I am hoping and praying to the best of my capacity that your health will improve." (break) Would you like Bharadvāja to sing a little?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can sing now. (break) The kavirāja will be coming back to take us there. Better that we follow his advice and let this medicine work a little while, see if you get some strength, and let him come and take us there as he promised he would do. There is no reason why we should jump ahead. As we have placed ourself under a competent kavirāja, better we take his advice as long as we don't find it to be harmful.

Prabhupāda: When we expect?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We expect him to come the day after Diwali.

Prabhupāda: When there is Diwali?

Prabhupāda: I was thinking if we have to go, why...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because he's also said that he will give you some medicine for helping you to take the trip easily. No reason to rush, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Our original reason for delaying was to give you time to get a little more strength. That kavirāja felt pretty confident that if we wait this long, you will get some more strength. I think we should wait. Everyone is feeling that way. You're not unhappy here, are you?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says that he can get it to function properly.

Prabhupāda: He says, but I practically see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But his medicine cannot... He also says that his medicine cannot be judged over a period of five or six days. He's not claiming...

Prabhupāda: I mean in case I do not increase.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Okay. In case you don't increase. Because I don't think we can say... Unless we want to say that this kavirāja is absolutely wrong. But if we accept...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, no, because we're still saying "in case."

Prabhupāda: No, no. Because I don't feel appetite for anything except that little one sip barley and one sip juice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But again the point is that the whole idea of this medicine is that it takes time.

Prabhupāda: Practically I have seen that it is not working.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you're not allowing sufficient time, according to the kavirāja.

Prabhupāda: What time? I could not...

Prabhupāda: He doesn't expect this consciousness in this condition. Therefore he is astonished. Actually, physically—finished, everything. So wherefrom the voice coming and wherefrom intelligence coming? That he is astonished. (Bengali) (break) So fix up this program, kīrtana and whatever little I want to eat, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you'll continue to take the kavirāja's medicines?

Prabhupāda: That I'll go on. What is that? If there is any improvement, welcome. Otherwise there is no question of moving me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. (break) There has to be some actual improvement before you should move. Otherwise you are already here in Vṛndāvana, so why move?

Prabhupāda: That is my point.

Prabhupāda: That is my only request, that at the last stage don't torture me and put to death. So I am not eating anything, and if we chant, by batches chant, I'll hear. (Bengali)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) Hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. That is the medicine. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is the decision, that in case it does not improve, let me die here. If it improves, I shall be very glad to go... (Bengali)

Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: (Bengali) (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Improvement hasn't come yet. Simply because you're drinking more, passing more urine, is not the sign of any improvement.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtana may be stopped now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stop for a while now. For the rest of the night it's good if there's... (kīrtana stops) The kavirāja's assistant came this evening. We hadn't called him. I think he came on his own. He wanted to see how you were. I didn't think there was so much need for him to see you. He's not so senior a man. And the medicine is already prescribed, so what would be the benefit of his coming? We're not going to allow him to change the medicine, so I felt there was no real need. We can... Bhakti-caru Mahārāja spoke with him, gave him report of how you are.

Prabhupāda: He is also educated?

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Bhakti-caru: I asked him if he would like to take some medicine.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's supposed to take medicine now? He doesn't want to take? You don't want to take your medicine now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: My taking the medicine means I am passing urine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, according to every physician that we've consulted, Ayurvedic and allopathic, they say that that's very much required. Is it painful to pass urine?

Prabhupāda: Sometimes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you should take the medicine as he prescribed. They're not dangerous medicines in any way. Otherwise we won't be able to see the effect of the kavirāja's treatment. (pause)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali with Bhakti-caru)

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda said that when he turns on his side he feels dizzy, and when he sits up also, towards the beginning, he feels very dizzy. I think that's due to weakness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, according to this kavirāja, he said that after fifteen days of this treatment, there should be noticeable sign, increased strength. Didn't he say that? So, it's been about one week now, hasn't it? Or maybe not so long. Five days. So for another week or ten days, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should carry on, and let us see. We're certainly not going to... I think that this is the last kavirāja that we should take the help of. If his medicine works, that's very welcome. And if it doesn't, then I don't think that we should try any more kavirājas or any doctor. We've tried enough. At least for the next week to ten days now we should carry through. At least we've seen that with other kavirājas there were so many negative effects. Remember? Now, with this kavirāja, nothing has even happened badly with the medicine he's prescribed. Rather, exactly as he predicted there would be more urine, more urine is coming. I think the swelling is reducing.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. It has. It's a lot... Another thing is that milk...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Milk you were never able to take. Now you're able to take without producing... I mean there definitely are, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bhakti-caru: Another thing might have been that last night in the milk the barley was little thick, little too much of it, so that density was little thick. So from today onwards I'm going to use much less barley so that it's thin and easy to swallow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that... I mean the one thing we're hoping for is the strength. I was saying that the swelling, Śrīla Prabhupāda, very much reduced, very reduced.

Bhakti-caru: And another thing, Shastriji was explaining that in Ayurvedic medicine the reaction doesn't take place immediately. He was explaining in allopath, when someone is very weak, they give him glucose, intravenous glucose, and that gives immediate energy. But he says that that doesn't work. When the glucose is exhausted, then again he becomes even more weaker. But the kavirāja like that, the strength will come slowly, slowly, but whatever strength is acquired in the body, that stays there. It's permanent. It's not just temporary.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The swelling is reduced. Isn't it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I mean, all of the signs, Śrīla Prabhupāda, which the kavirāja wanted, are there.

Bhakti-caru: As a matter of fact, he hasn't given any medicine to strengthen him up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Did you hear what Bhakti-caru just said?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Did you hear what Bhakti-caru just said?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhakti-caru: Right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Shastriji didn't give you any medicine to strengthen you up as such. His medicines are simply to cure your kidney and liver. When they are cured, then he's going to give medicines like makara-dhvaja which will make you strong.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is one of the reasons I wanted the kavirāja to be with you was to be able to answer your doubts, because I felt that he could far better than we can. But factually speaking, it seems to me there's every... I mean if he were here now he would feel your pulse and he would be able to understand that your pulse is not weak. Your heart is good. You're starting to pass more urine, you're getting sufficient rest, you're able to take things like milk, which you couldn't take before, and these are positive signs. And the one thing that we're looking for, strength, he already said will not come immediately, and he's not even giving any medicine for increasing strength yet. The thing is, we're a little impatient because we've waited so many months and had so many failures with so many different doctors, but really, this doctor, so far, has the best record, his medicines. So we think that you should be encouraged. We feel hopeful. Even if you feel hopeless, we are hopeful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think you should take the medicine now. Can Bhakti-caru bring it to you?

Prabhupāda: The same medicine?

Bhakti-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This same medicine will continue till kavirāja comes back and gives new medicine. They are all the same medicine, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There are two different types of medicines. One, I'm supposed to give once in the morning, once in the evening. And another one is in the noontime and late in the evening. And there's one medicine, that's sometime in the afternoon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not very painful to take the medicine, is it?

Bhakti-caru: Does it taste bad, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medicine? Does it taste very bad?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caru: But then it is very bitter or... Because medicine will be a little bad tasting. Very much bitter, no, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Bitter.

Bhakti-caru: Yes. So should I mix it with some sweet? Like... I normally give the powder with glucose so that the glucose will give you some sweet taste. But distilled medicine, the water thin, watery medicine, that is tasteless. It tastes like water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us follow this medicine until its prescribed time, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Give me. (swallows medicine)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This kavirāja feels quite confident, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is not a fool. He says there's reason to feel quite hopeful. Naturally you are feeling a little hopeless because you've been laying down for so long in bed. Would you like to hear a little bit of one of the books? We'll read some more of the Teachings of Lord Kapila that we were reading yesterday to you? In this way we can pass the time very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But stool-passing this many times is not right either. Passing stool five, six times, that is not right. It's obvious that it's a result of something. It's either the medicine or the diet. Prabhupāda says it's the medicine, just like last time when he took that makara-dhvaja, and he was right. It was the medicine. (break) ...the best thing to do. There may be some good effect by taking the medicine in addition to the causing you to pass stool. So if by giving you some other small medicine at the same time, you can still take this medicine and you don't pass stool, then that's the best thing. This only a kavirāja knows. I don't know this. I have no idea. Maybe we should take the help of that... This doesn't seem like a very difficult thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Passing stool is something that any kavirāja should be able to treat, and maybe for this small thing we should call that assistant who was here yesterday. That's why that kavirāja from Calcutta arranged for there to be an assistant here, in case... In other words he came and diagnosed the disease, and he made a very complicated thing, medicine that an expert had to make. And for the fact that there might be some side effect, that you may not sleep properly or you might be passing stool, something of this kind, he found out one assistant for the purpose of helping in these cases. So why not carry through with that and take the help of this assistant, see what he says? This is a common ailment that people have, diarrhea or passing stool too often, loose bowels. That's not a very major problem.

Prabhupāda: No, you have to stop.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not necessarily the only solution, to stop. I just explained, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that that is not the only way. Another way may be that they add some other kind of medicine which stops the passing of stool. The medicine you're getting is supposed to be doing good to your kidney and liver. That it causes you to pass stool, that is not good, but at the same time, it may be doing good for the kidney and liver. If you stop taking it, then how will you heal the kidney and liver? Simply by not passing stool, that's not going to heal the kidney and liver. What we want is that you should not pass stool too much and at the same time you can still have your kidney and liver healed. Naturally, if you stop taking medicine, the stool may stop passing.

Prabhupāda: And he is not experienced.

Prabhupāda: So consult him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. I think this is the time to do that. This is a side effect of taking the medicine. Just giving up taking medicine may solve one problem, but it's not going to solve the main problem. This is to say that we're putting some hope on this kavirāja from Calcutta. If eventually he is shown that his medicine didn't work, then I won't..., I wouldn't say anything. But I'm going on the argument that his medicine is doing some good. So I don't want to see it stopped. So you have no objection if we consult the other kavirāja, do you?

Prabhupāda: What can be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I think this is the purpose for which he was chosen, at such a time like this that he should be consulted. I'll tell Bhakti-caru to consult him. (break)

Bhakti-caru: (Hindi)

Bhavānanda: Bhakti-caru, what is he saying?

Bhakti-caru: He's saying that for controlling the stool he's going to just give juice of ginger roots and honey mixed together, and just that. He's not going to give any other medicine for that.

Bhavānanda: Gentle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will stop the stool?

Bhakti-caru: He's saying yes. He doesn't want to change this medicine. He says that none of these medicines has any ingredient that might cause stool or might make him pass stool. (Hindi) He's saying that passing stool is due to the old stool that was in the stomach. That is coming out. They are not laxatives, as such. Now I remember, he was telling also, that Shastriji, that Śrīla Prabhupāda's intestine has become shrunk, dried up. Now they are slowly, slowly, they have got to become loose and looser, and this might be one thing like the intestine is loosening, and that is causing the bowels to move.

Bhakti-caru: (Hindi with kavirāja assistant and Prabhupāda)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti-caru, what's going on?

Bhakti-caru: He was wondering about one medicine that has some roots and herbs mixed together and boil it for a long time and just give the extract of that. He was wondering whether that medicine, how I have that medicine... There are different items in it. That vaidyajī already made, mixed it together. So he was wondering about that medicine, how it is, how do I keep it.

Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: (Hindi) So he told me yesterday also that there should be continuous prayers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, what we have to do is carry on with this medicine, medical treatment, and let the kavirāja come. Then, when he comes from Calcutta, he'll review everything that's happened and he'll see what your condition is like. And if he feels that the liver and kidney have been cleared up a little bit, then he'll begin to give medicine for giving you strength. And we will make him stay here until you get sufficient strength. And if you do get sufficient strength, which means his medicine is working, then he can take you to Māyāpur. And after some days, if he gives you medicine for strength and you don't get any strength, then there's no reason to leave Vṛndāvana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:We certainly... I've looked just now with Upendra, and pretty much, you've increased by about double what you drink and you've increased by about double the amount of urine. But that's not going to give you strength very much. And the kavirāja has also said that he's not giving any medicine for giving strength at this time. Mostly he's giving medicine which should help the kidney and liver. I can't see inside your body to know if your kidney and liver are better. That he has to say. And if he says that it is getting better, then he can give the medicine for giving strength. And that's something that we can notice. Once he gives the medicine for strength, we'll be able to see if you're actually getting strength. After five or six days, if you're not getting any strength, then we'll know that the medicine is not effective. If it is effective, then we can go with him. You'll have more strength and we can go to Māyāpur. He can take us there and we'll carry on. And if for some reason it's not effective, then we have to trust simply in kṛṣṇa-nāma. That we're doing anyway, but that's... We'll have to do exclusively at that point.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does that sound right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: There is no alternative.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. There's no alternative. There's no question of going to any more kavirājas. This is the last one. He's the best we've found, and if his medicine doesn't work, then let us simply depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavānanda: That was fifty and clear, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Fifty and clear.

Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda, you are not feeling well?

Bhavānanda: No, now I'm feeling better, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is the problem. You are all become stationed to me.(?) Who will work?

Jayādvaita: At least this disease of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very infectious. Everyone catches it from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They can't find any medicine to stop it. It just keeps going on more and more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They call it epidemic. (break) ...dream last night that you were eating all kinds of nice fruits.

Prabhupāda: What is that sound?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have to do something. We have to...

Prabhupāda: Then that means... That means force me and give me trouble.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that we won't do. But I'm suggesting that if we call the kavirāja in Calcutta, he can suggest some medicine which will give you strength. I mean he has not given you any medicines which he claims will give you strength yet. At least we should give him an opportunity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it's a good idea to call kavirāja from Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhavānanda: We're all in agreement that the kavirāja should be called from Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: What he'll do?

Bhavānanda: Well, that's up to him, to decide what to do. We don't know what he will do, but he has medicines which can give you strength. He wanted to wait some time before administering. But now what would be the loss if he administered them to you now? If they're going to work five days from now, they'll work now. Let us try. There's no loss. And if you get strength, then all gain. The kavirāja said that the one great quality that you have in this sickness is your incredible willpower. If you lose your willpower, desire to remain here, then nothing will work. But he said that if you continue with this strong desire to remain, then it will be easy.

Prabhupāda: That strong desire has now disappeared.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One thing is that this kavirāja's medicine has never had any adverse effects. Everybody else's medicine has had some adverse effects except for his. And in fact, the thing which he said his medicine would do has been done. He said that his medicine would cause you to pass more urine, and that actually has happened. He did not say that the medicine he gave you would make you stronger at this time. So nothing has gone wrong by taking his medicine, and in fact, what he said would happen has happened. He said that after giving that, he would begin to give medicine for giving strength. So what is the harm if we call him and let him give the medicine which he says will give you strength? If it gives you strength, then welcome. And if it doesn't give you strength, then we're not any worse off than we are now. You are feeling hopeless; therefore it doesn't matter to you. But as we are hopeful still, therefore it matters very much to us. He is our last hope. We have to admit, if his medicine does not work, then we simply have to depend solely on Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We know that you are hopeless, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but as your disciples, it is our duty to remain hopeful, at least to the point where we should try this last kavirāja. We also accept that if this kavirāja is not successful, then finish with all kavirājas and medicines. (pause) Would you like to have some kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) The kavirāja is here now. Kavirāja is here.

Prabhupāda: How? The young kavirāja, oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhakti-caru and Śatadhanya have gone to Mathurā, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to call the Shastriji from Calcutta. (Svarūpa Dāmodara and kavirāja assistant—Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The pulse has increased? That's good. It is stronger or weaker?

Upendra: Did we give him medicine today so far?

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Which medicine?

Upendra: I don't know. Bhakti-caru never writes which one it is.

Bhavānanda: That one that you boil up.

Room Conversation -- November 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Kavirāja assistant: (Hindi)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's saying that among those medicine, first one or second one has some ingredients that give some little strength. He's asking whether Prabhupāda was asleep last night. Actually Prabhupāda rested very well from nine to two o'clock last night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:So Śrīla Prabhupāda? The kavirāja will be coming quite soon, and I was thinking that you've been a very good patient, taking all of the medicines which he prescribed. So we should not discontinue it until he comes, because that way we can say to him that you have taken everything exactly as he recommended. That way, he'll know certainly how much his medicine has been effective. If we stop the medicine, then he won't be able to tell exactly. And as he'll be here quite soon, I think that we should just finish taking the medicine until he comes.

Room Conversation -- November 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another thing that we were thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we could see that you don't have much strength for sitting up very much at all. So what we were wondering was that just for the few times that you have to drink, whether we could sit you up for a minute. Not for longer than a minute. Not that you would have to have pillows behind you or anything. Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself can help you to sit up. And just for a minute, while you drink, you could sit up and then lay down again, just until the kavirāja comes. Our only feeling is that let us just try this medicine till the end. Let us see if it works. Let the kavirāja come, and then he will give us some guidance from there. To sit up for any length of time is not possible. We could see that this morning. But if you try, we can help you to sit up. Bhavānanda and myself will both be behind you, and just while you drink, and then lay down immediately. So that will give you a little strength, drinking something.

Room Conversation -- November 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: If there is no appetite, how there will be strength?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, unless there is appetite, there cannot be any genuine strength. Let us see what this kavirāja finally says, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say that he seems to have at least given medicine which has done what he said it would do. That much we have to admit. He did not promise that the medicine would give strength yet. Let him come and let us see. He's a very honest man. He admitted that he cannot guarantee that he can save Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said, "But if anyone can, I promise you that my medicine is effective. I make it myself, and I do it according to the Vedas. So if Kṛṣṇa desires, then medicine will have effect of saving Prabhupāda." So that's honest, at least. He's not claiming to be some magician, neither his medicine causes any pain, I think. Sometimes not so tasty, but not painful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. I had a nice talk with Shastriji, very detailed talk. He explained that the main... He said we have brought you to him at the very last possible moment. He said had we come six months earlier, so much easier it would have been. He said this time that we have called him just now was just timely that he came back again. He said that the main problem is the kidney. He said the kidney is working, otherwise you could not pass urine. And the medicine which he has given over the past week has had an effect, because the urine is increased. He explains that the whole body, there's very little blood due to not having eaten for so many months, and there's great weakness because of this. He says the muscles are all more or less gone; therefore you have no strength, because the blood is not there. And because you're so weak, he can't give strong medicine, because it will be too strong for you. He has to give it very, very carefully and slowly, in small doses. He says the kidney, urine goes downwards, and blood goes upwards. So the urine is passing. Now he's going to give... He started today already giving medicine which will help to form blood. And automatically... He says that... I asked him, "How will we know if it is working? Will Prabhupāda feel stronger?" He said, "Not immediately. I can't give it very much dose." He said, "I'll be able to tell it from the pulse." I guess that's the kavirāja's ability, that he can tell from the pulse. He said, "I'll be able to tell from the pulse that the medicine for creating more blood is being taken up by the body." Then we asked him... He said that it is better you don't sit up 'cause it puts strain on the heart.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I said, "What about like walking?" He said, "Fit means walking, talking, eating, everything." He said, "If this medicine works, then he should live for at least ten more years." He said that the treatment will take at least three or four months. It's a very slow treatment. He felt fairly confident.

Prabhupāda: Let us see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I felt very... I thought that was good, that recovery doesn't mean simply laying in bed for the next few years, but recovery means actually being fit. He says it's gradual. He says, "Now, the medicine I've given for the kidneys over the past week, the kidney has not gotten worse. It's improved a little." He said, "So that..." (break)

Prabhupāda: You don't strain for collecting. Then spiritual progress will be hampered.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We washed his eyes with rose water. Prabhupāda said he felt a little...

Bhakti-caru: He said that the medicine that he started administering, in four or five days Prabhupāda will be fit enough to go into parikrama.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does that sound all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda slept the whole night soundly.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want some water, Prabhupāda?

Bhakti-caru: Arak is that distilled medicine...

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...choke... (Hindi) ...choke... (Hindi)

Bhakti-caru: We have to increase the quantity of that Arak.

Indian devotee: (Hindi with others)

Bhakti-cāru: He gave a medicine yesterday to control the stool, so we have to get it today.

Kavirāja: Pulse over ninety.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your pulse is stronger now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sastriji says that your pulse is normal rate and stronger. I think the kīrtana is having a good effect, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda about hari-nāma as medicine)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Sastriji was saying that when he gives someone medicine, he gives the medicine, and then because he's a doctor, he doesn't care it may work or not work. But with you, he said he's become too much attached. He says he does not know why, but he's become very much attached, and now he's too much determined that his medicine must work. He can't feel indifferent when he treats you.

Kavirāja: (Hindi with Prabhupāda)

Bhakti-cāru: (to Bhavānanda) He's explaining about the medicine that if he gets the medicine it will be all right.

Bhavānanda: Which medicine?

Bhakti-cāru: The one that he went to look for in the forest.

Bhavānanda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what did Prabhupāda just say?

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Bhakti-cāru: He said how can you define it? How can you explain it? Like the condition couldn't have improved by ten medicines also, (indistinct) one medicine it become perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did Prabhupāda just say?

Bhakti-cāru: Prabhupāda just said that I mean, this morning his condition was bad, not now.

Bhavānanda: Prabhupāda was complaining of mental distress this morning also.

Bhakti-cāru: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: So you come at four, have kīrtana (?). (break) I wish that you GBC manage very nicely and consider I am dead and let me try to travel all the tīrthasthāna. Without any responsibility. If I become recovered from this malady I shall come back and then I shall die in, what is it when the dead body is there, let them bring to Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana. I am thinking in this way. Bring little medicine and no medicine, little milk, and travel one place to another and if there is death, what is the lamentation? My age is ripe. In the open air and bullock cart or during daytime, eh? Or you can say semi-suicide, although living what consider me dead for the time. You manage and nowadays there is in India ample sunshine. So during daytime I shall travel and nighttime you make a camp under a tree. In this way let me travel all the tīrthas. I am thinking in this way. What is your opinion?