Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, Second Chapter—those who have got Bhagavad-gītā, they will see to it—that "Within this body there is soul, and the body is changing every moment." That is a fact. We say, "The child is growing." Growing or changing-practically the same thing. Actually, it is changing because the former body is no longer to be found. It has accepted, the soul has accepted, another body. This is going on from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, then old age. So, just like I am old man. I can remember my childhood body, my babyhood body, my boyhood body, my youth-hood body. So the body is no longer, but I am there. I am thinking that "I did do like this. I was playing like this with my body." But that body is gone, but still I am there. Therefore it is naturally surmised that when this body will not be existent, I will be existent. I will accept another body. This is very logical conclusion. As I am changing so many bodies, still I am there. I can understand that I changed my body. I was so little. Now I have grown up. I am old. But I am there. Similarly, it is concluded, when this body will not be there, but I will accept another body. This is very easy to understand, that that "I" is... Now, we can perceive that when you are spiritually emancipated, you will see yourself, God also, and everything spiritual. That requires time. That requires practice. And we are teaching our students that practice, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to change the consciousness. When you change your consciousness, you will see yourself, you will see God, everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam etaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. When you are in that spiritual platform, everything will be known to you. But before that, if you want to know, that is not possible.
Logical (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa is there.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Kṛṣṇa, but we cannot see. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa but it appears it is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya-bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable.
Revatīnandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit...
Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear.
Prabhupāda: So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is explicitly said,
- ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
- mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
- iti matvā bhajante māṁ
- budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
- (BG 10.8)
"I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matvā, understanding like this, budhā. Budhā means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva samanvitāḥ, in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budhā, they engage themselves in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anādir ādir govindam. He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect, my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause of great-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God.
Mensa Member: (indistinct) ...prime mover argument is who is the prime mover. What is the logical necessity for a first cause? Would you agree with that?
Dr. Weir: Well, I think it's inherent in your definition of something that's omnipotent, that it's very like saying it's necessary to have no beginning in order to have no end. It's really a concept. Whether it exists or not it doesn't matter.
Mensa Member: With respect, miners(?), among many other people prove that it's absolutely impossible to establish a rational, umm, a rational grounding for religion. In other words, trying to logically prove axioms is logically impossible.
Dr. Weir: Think so? Not necessary.
Śyāmasundara: But by verbalizing this philosophy of the Absolute, it trains the student in accepting the inexperience, that which is only experienced, by leading them to that point. But certainly we have to have some verbal confirmation of this truth.
Dr. Weir: Some people, oddly enough, don't need it. Some very simple people can have a very truly spiritual life without ever needing to verbalize it usually because they had, this is where I think it's perfectly correct, they have followed some father figure or mother figure and you know, absorbed...
Śyāmasundara: Just like my child.
Dr. Weir: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: She's to that point without having any rational knowledge.
Mensa Member: There's some (indistinct) simple people also (indistinct) people like Blake, for example, or Buddha (indistinct) simple person. It's not this sort of faith, only child-like faith (indistinct) simple people.
Dr. Weir: It's is easier for them though. It's easier for the simple person because he doesn't have all these mental, complicated doubts and, you know, arguments with himself.
Mensa Member: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: It's said that as one progresses more in spiritual life he becomes simpler and more innocent, but in the beginning he may have had to comprehend it on some verbal level in order to (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: I often used say to my students that I've got to remember that if anything in life to realize the difference between simple and complicated, which is objective, and easy and difficult, which is subjective. In other words sometimes a simple thing may be terribly difficult for a person to get hold of. Whereas complicated things he may find quite easy.
Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority.
Dr. Weir: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same..., to some people it comes terribly easily.
Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra. Vicāra means statement. Just try to understand the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and give your judgement. This is not a sentimental, as people take it as a sentimental. Most scientific, logical. So how they like that slides?
Girirāja: Very much. I think we may have a brief slide show tonight also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got all the slides?
Girirāja: We have many slides of paintings, of different activities... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...have no attachment. These are all nonsense. You cannot be (indistinct). A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Him. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, you don't pluck out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine. He dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality... Because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. That's all.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee: Shintoism is a very old Japanese religion, they have many worshiping of demigods and goddesses...
Guest (1): Yes, the same, classic Greek mythology based on modern western civilization. And do you understand Japanese, all character (indistinct) ...logical study based on Shintoism basic of (indistinct) from south island (indistinct) and Mongolian (indistinct) one race (indistinct) one Japanese (indistinct) by Shintoism, world mythology, same as the Greek mythology, gods and (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What you are doing here?
Guest (1): No program (indistinct) ...pension (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Get pension from Japan?
Guest (1): From Japan, twenty-five percent of salary. So it's not enough, same society, same society, salary time in Japan (indistinct) evacuation. I left, moreover, I have two (indistinct) in Tokyo (indistinct) by my mother and father. This is (indistinct) Before I had four—one wife and one only daughter but both (indistinct) passed away, and widower. So I was anywhere safe alone, widower, so I left Japan '63, for India first. (indistinct) Kabul, Peshawar and Tehran, Karachi and come here '66. Too long, (indistinct) easiest place to live, easiest places to live. But too long (indistinct) So I will leave from here maybe next year (indistinct) Alexandria, Egypt and from there along the south coast Mediterranean up to Rabat, Morocco. Before pre-war time I was several times (indistinct) Suez Canal (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He has traveled all over the world.
Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void?
Student (1): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to...
Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities.
Student (1): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't, no, right. I mean this isn't logical, is it?
Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority.
Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself.
Student (3): Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic.
Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very...
Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not (indistinct) and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different...
Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now...
Jesuit Priest: ...kinds of life.
Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal?
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child?
Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a... That's, that's... Logical. I just tried to show you the difference between...
Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that...
Jesuit Priest: ...vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life.
Prabhupāda: ... that innocent... That... That's all right.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupāda: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupāda: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say that rascaldom. That word say.
Devotee: I just say what they say.
Prabhupāda: But you are saying... Was this tape recorder was existing, or somebody has prepared?
Yogeśvara: A man has prepared it.
Prabhupāda: Man has prepared it. Then somebody must prepare.
Yogeśvara: But it's man's intelligence that has created that machine.
Prabhupāda: Well, man or somebody, but try to understand generally: Anything that you see, that is created by man or beast or somebody. It is created. So this cosmic manifestation, why do you say that it is not created? It is created. You do not know who has created. That is your ignorance. But as I have no experience, in this material world, which is not created... It is created. You are created. Still. How can you say it is not created?
Śyāmasundara: Should it be taken literally or allegorically?
Prabhupāda: No, literally, literally.
David Lawrence: Yeah, literally as a physical fact.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes.
David Lawrence: Now, having said that then, if one goes on logically...
Prabhupāda: You'll find so many demons like Pūtanā even at the present moment.
David Lawrence: So one could leap from behind a tree, putting it tritely if you like.
Prabhupāda: The, the Bhāgavatam, there is nothing... well, there are some figurative use. Just like we speak the story of Aesop's fables. That is for instruction. Just like jackal is talking with a lion. You see? So, there are stories like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, there are figurative stories.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: I must admit, yes, I've read far enough on to see that and I think this is...
Prabhupāda: When we make analogy, the points of similarity must be there. But these rascals are so dull-headed that they have not even logical arguments. Where are the points of similarity? That we are comparing these lusty affairs of this material world with the affairs of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs? Where is the similarity?
David Lawrence: There's never mention of lust or of any animal desire at all is there?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
David Lawrence: It's just reverence and love.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa used to dance with so many gopīs, everything is described there, that they embraced, they kissed, but there is no such thing abortion or contraceptive. (laughter) So these things have to be studied. How we can compare gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa with these lusty affairs of this material world?
David Lawrence: Can't be done. Another question that raised itself, you'll see in the paper in fact, was the little mention in one of the books that I was reading, not from Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just to get a bit of background, on Lord Caitanya, and it seems to have been...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, described.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harry: But the point is this, that if you just act as you are, and, if you don't mind me saying... These little things which come back to me, and thinking a bit logically, from a common sense point of view, I don't think it's necessary. But you can tell me to mind my own business. I'm not here to dictate to you. Now you must remember this. And the only time I should dictate to you is if you commit any offense outside the road where my jurisdiction starts, or there is a serious incident in the temple which I would have to come out and sort out. Now can you follow me?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Actually, we would appreciate if you would tell us these things, that the village people are thinking this, thinking that. If they're feeling unhappy about something, if it's something that we can change, let us know.
Harry: Well, this is it. Look... But you can't do this... Rome wasn't built in a day.
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot satisfy...
Harry: You cannot satisfy everyone.
Revatīnandana: No, but about our external behavior...
Prabhupāda: That's not. We cannot change our policy.
Prabhupāda: That's a good qualification.
Guest (3): No.
Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... (BG 2.13), dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."
Prabhupāda: So that they can stay there. Because we have now four, five temples. And I require their assistance. To maintain.
Ambassador: In India.
Prabhupāda: In India. So if you kindly give some of our men the missionary visa, it will be very kind of you. It is missionary.
Ambassador: I'll immediately write and find out because it is a very logical thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: Because we give them to other religions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not this? So if you kindly help in this way. That is within your power.
Ambassador: I'll simply write. Of course.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. We can immediately submit some of the names. And you can give us.
Ambassador: Of course, from Sweden, I mean, it depends upon the nationality. People can go for three months without any visa.
Prajāpati: After hearing such nice information about God, I think some sincere men might come forward and say...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any gentleman, any sincere man, must accept this proposition. It is so logical.
Prajāpati: They will come forward and say, "Now, what practical can we do to help implement these in the government, in the world? What can we do practical?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you take instruction from us. Because you are all rascals, you do not know. We are experienced. Take advice from us. First thing is that you close the slaughterhouse. Close the liquor house. Will they do that?
Prajāpati: It is a question of business. Businessmen have so much control...
Prabhupāda: Business or whatever nonsense it may be, but our first proposal is that you become sinless. But they will not agree. They will remain sinful, and still they will say, "In God we believe, we trust," these slogans. "We go to church, we pray," like that. This is the defect. A man has come for your... You are a physician for treatment. As soon as the physician says that "You don't do this," you say, "I cannot give up this." Then how he will be cured? Let him rot. This is the position.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest: You see if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans...
Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs.
Guest: But if they will logically...
Prabhupāda: Logic, there is no logic.
Guest: No, but what I say. If they are appeased...
Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword.
Guest: No, but what I say... The basic problem is that if the center is against, if the (indistinct) man, is against...
Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against.
Guest: If the (indistinct) men is against, therefore they are disclosing their weakness.
Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that... Many politicians have said. In London, the high commissioner, he said, "Swamiji, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharastrian Pant. Pant. So... But we cannot do anything of this way.
Indian Man (1): You have to believe or imagine some entity. It may be Kṛṣṇa or it...
Prabhupāda: No, no, how can you disbelieve? First of all, thing is how can you disbelieve? Believe or not believe, that is another question. How you can... This water has come from some source. So what is that source?
Yaśomatīnandana: By our logical research we can come to Bhagavad-gītā and find out Kṛṣṇa is the only person in the whole world who says that "This comes from Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Water comes from your body, perspiration. So why not from Kṛṣṇa's body? Simple reasoning. (break) ...ānanda-vigrahaḥ. (break) ...tap produces water. An inanimate object, a small material thing, it produces water. And Kṛṣṇa cannot produce such water? (break) ...potency. They are explained. But because we do not go to the right teacher, we do not understand. That is the difficulty.
Indian Man (1): But the teachers give different interpretation of the same thing.
Prabhupāda: No. The same thing means he is a rascal teacher. He is not teacher. He is cheater. When a cheater takes the place of a teacher, he explains differently. And when a teacher is there, he will explain rightly. Where is the difficulty? I have several times said that "Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?" There is not a single line which is very difficult to understand. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: (BG 4.1) "I first of all said this philosophy to Vivasvan, the sun-god." So where is the difficulty to understand this line? Where is the difficulty?
Pañcadraviḍa: ...argument being that Christ has said "Thou shalt not kill." That is one of ten commandments. Ten commandments are social codes for how the people are to live. Now, the people that are Christ's disciples, they are all fishermen. His whole community is fishermen and sheep herders. They are always... He is having fisherman community. So he did not mean for them to give up their engagement. They were all living as fishermen. He told them, "Thou shalt not kill." Therefore we can only conclude that Christ meant "Thou shalt not kill other human beings" because he was coming at a time, teaching principles how to live with each other...
Prabhupāda: No, we don't allow to comment or interpret on the words of... That we cannot allow. You cannot interpret in that way, in your own logical... That is not allowed.
Pañcadraviḍa: "But we say that when Christ said, Thou shalt not kill, and you say it refers all living beings, we say that is your interpretation because Christ is coming to teach fishermen. He never told them to give up their occupation. They continued to live as fishermen. Continued to live as sheep herders. He knew that killing was going on. Therefore his statement, 'Thou shalt not kill,' must refer to human beings because he was living in the community. He was teaching by his example."
Prabhupāda: But I can say, "Why not to the animals? You can eat fish only." Then I'll write book like that. Jesus Christ allowed the fishermen to fish, so then you can fish. Why you are killing cows? That will be my argument. If you are actually following Christ, all right, you can take fish, but why you are killing animals, and other animals? Why you are going that "Because Christ has allowed some fish killing, therefore everyone should be killed"? What is this nonsense? You follow strictly. All right, fish-killing.
Prabhupāda: Yes, these different types of philosophers are always there, not only in the medieval age, in the previously also. It is said, na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. "A philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not present a different view." (laughter) This is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ (?). Tarka, by argument, logic, you cannot come to the right conclusion because you may be a good logician and then you meet another logician who is better than you. So his arguments may be stronger than your argument. Therefore, simply by arguments or logical premises, you cannot approach the Absolute Truth.
Richard Webster: Oh, yes. I agree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Literatures are also, authentic literatures... Śrutayaḥ means authentic literature, which is acceptable. They are also various type. Just like Vedas. There are four Vedas: Sāma-Veda, Yajur-Veda, Atharva-Veda, Ṛg-Veda. Then the Upaniṣads are there. Then the Vedānta-sūtra is there. So if we study all this Vedic literature or any other similar literature, it is very difficult to find out the Absolute Truth. Śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. And if we take the philosophers, so one philosopher differs from another philosopher. Na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Therefore, to approach the Absolute Truth, God, is very difficult subject matter. Therefore our principle is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Mahājana means the recognized persons, recognized by the Supreme Lord, such persons we follow. We have got a list of recognized persons, just like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, the Manu. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Manu's name is there. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), this Manu. So Manu, then Kapila, then Prahlāda, Janaka, Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Yamarāja. In this way there are twelve mahājanas. And we receive knowledge from either of them. That is bona fide philosophy. That is called paramparā system. The original teacher is Kṛṣṇa and from Him the sun-god, Vivasvān, learned it. He spoke to his son, Manu. Manu spoke to his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way the paramparā system is coming. And that is bona fide. This is our philosophy, to accept knowledge from the perfect person or his bona fide representative.
Guru-gaurāṅga: About life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: They say it doesn't go beyond... They have to agree that the baby's body is gone and the young man's body is gone. They have to agree. But they say that that doesn't mean logically that I have to take another body.
Prabhupāda: What is the other logic? If you have changed your body so many times, why not change this body? What is your reason? Natural course it should be that I have changed so many bodies so this body I shall change. This is natural logic. And what is his logic?
Satsvarūpa: So he said... They say it may be or it may not be.
Prabhupāda: But that is your rascaldom. But this is the real logic.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They also say that it is not... It is the same body, more or less...
Prabhupāda: Same body...
Guru-gaurāṅga: But it is just developed, but it is not a different body.
Prabhupāda: No. Developed means different body. Development means different body. They cannot say it is not different body. Then if it is not different, then go to childhood again. That means they're not human being. Human being means with logic. According to their definition, man is rational animal. They're not even rational. Like cats and dogs. There is no rationality. Cats and dogs also they have got rationality. Logic plus authority, Kṛṣṇa says. How you can deny? That means they don't agree with Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You see? This logic, I am not giving this logic. This logic is given by Kṛṣṇa. So unless... The difficulty is that unless they accept the authority, it is very difficult. Logic is there. The authority is there.
Prabhupāda: So you're understanding.
M. Lallier: Not always, and I simply... It's difficult to understand.
Bhagavān: It's logical.
M. Lallier: Yes, I think it's difficult because I am not pure, not difficult because...
Bhagavān: The philosophy. The philosophy is not difficult.
Yogeśvara: He's suggesting that, perhaps, the difficulty he is having in understanding your books is that he is not yet pure.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. Bhakti line is for the purest. I was explaining this morning. Purification. Tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means pure. The more you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become pure.
Prabhupāda: Yes, definition.
Church Representative: I cannot say that it is a definition. It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith.
Prabhupāda: No, it is characteristic. Definition means you mention the characteristic. That is definition. Definition, you mention the characteristic. So that can be mentioned directly, or if it is not perceivable, then you can define in opposite way. Just like we have got experience: everything in the material world, it is beginning. There is a beginning. Anything of this—your body, my body, everything—it has got a beginning, and it has got an end. So it is stated, na jāyate na mriyate vā: "It has no beginning, no end." And nityaḥ, eternal, śāśvataḥ, very old, purāṇaḥ. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "It is not destroyed, annihilated, after the destruction of the body." So if we accept this definition, then we can understand the soul is eternal. Our characteristic, if we accept these characteristics, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), after the destruction of body the soul is never destroyed, then you can understand the soul is eternal. And it is clearly stated, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "After the destruction of the body, it is not destroyed." So, it means it takes another body. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that's not necessarily the logical conclusion. He says he's familiar with that theory, but it's more a question of faith. He says it's not actually a logical conclusion that if the soul leaves this body it must take another one. (French)
Prabhupāda: What does he mean by logic?
Yogeśvara: He says that means that it's not something that's very evident to me.
Prabhupāda: It may not be evident to him, but why not others? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says one thing is that he feels kind of glad that it's more or less a question of opinion because if it was Absolute Truth, then it would be too restricting for everyone.
Paramahaṁsa: He appreciates the fact that it has a coherent aspect, that it holds together logically. And this is what he appreciates.
Yogeśvara: He respects the Vaiṣṇava philosophy because it is substantial. It doesn't contradict itself.
Karandhara: So then the... If the Vaiṣṇava philosophy has a systematic logic, then integrity would dictate that we have to surrender or accept that logic. If a logic is true, we can't stand apart from it and simply observe it. We have to accept it ourselves.
Church Representative: (French)
Bhagavān: You are right on the brink of Absolute Truth. Don't run away. (laughs)
Yogeśvara: He says that even though he has a great interest in this discussion, because he has prior commitments, he's unable to stay.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all...
Bhagavān: Take some prasādam. (French)
Yogeśvara: He already has the books.
Prabhupāda: He has our...? He has got...? (French) That's all right. He has got.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prajāpati: Again there's no absolute authority. In the vast Christian tradition we have Origen saying one thing and Saint Francis saying another. Widespread... That's why it is not a science that we can go to like we can to Śrīla Prabhupāda for an exact answer, Bhagavad-gītā, exact absolute authority. In the Christian tradition it is simply defined as faithful men understanding themselves in the light of the scripture, in the light of the tradition.
Prabhupāda: No, that is because you are our student. Suppose our preachers meet the theologicians. How to prove that theology is not the means? Theology... Generally, you say it is speculation. So our point is that nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena. The ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, cannot be understood or approached, pravacanena, simply by logical arguments.
Prajāpati: The theologian would agree, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a question of what's called apologetics. Theology has a specific function for the Christian church, to bring people within the fold. Simply to convince them through any means, logical or whatever, to them to come within the church community, and then once they are within that group, then they can participate in what's called the Christian life. You have taking sacraments, engage in Christian fellowship, taking communion, so many things.
Acyutānanda: But their authorities disagree.
Prajāpati: Yes. That is... They will agree with that.
Acyutānanda: But our disciplic succession from thousands of years, there's no big disagreement.
Pañcadraviḍa: I met one... I was traveling about three months ago in India. I met one Christian on the train. So we began to discuss the śāstra. So I mentioned some of the arguments in reference to the Bible, that Christ was speaking...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) No, no. Where that covering? Where is it?
Prabhupāda: Logic.
Śrutakīrti: Logic is here. "Scheme of or trustees (?) on, science of reasoning..."
Prabhupāda: That... That...
Śrutakīrti: "...chain of reasoning, arguments, logical..."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: "...of logic, in conformity with principles of logic."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Science of reasoning.
Prajāpati: In words.
Prabhupāda: So "logy" means logic.
Acyutānanda: If you say what you are..., your own theory, cannot be done, that's illogical.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: They have, they... As soon as they come on the scene, they begin to become jolly.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you take advantage of this?
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we do... (break)
Satsvarūpa: ...it's no longer logical. But by the same logic...
Prabhupāda: No, it is... That is the meaning of God. Everything comes from Him, but He's self-sufficient. That is God.
Brahmānanda: But they say that the chunk was always there.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Brahmānanda: They say the chunk was always there.
Prabhupāda: No, chunk was not always there. Just like the earth was not always there. It was covered by water. A chunk is nothing but an earth, a piece of earth. So... So there was no chunk. Everything was covered with water. Wherefrom the chunk came? Wherefrom the water came? Then wherefrom the fire came? There are so many things.
Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search... You... Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person—he does not come from any father; he is self-sufficient—then He's God. That is the definition of... If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the difference.
Satsvarūpa: But they say that's not logically proved.
Prabhupāda: That is logical... Means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarāt.
Satsvarūpa: Independent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "This Absolute Truth is that from which, who is the origin of everything, but He's svarāṭ." This is the first line of Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1).
Guest (1) (Indian man): Are they doubting for themselves or for us?
Prabhupāda: For us.
Guest (1): They should doubt for themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view...
Guest (1): Our movement, this movement, is Kṛṣṇa's own movement.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, from mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop?
Guest (1): It will never stop.
Prabhupāda: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important, that it will continue to stay.
Satsvarūpa: They doubt that our devotees will stick many times.
Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.
Prabhupāda: You say, but those who are the followers of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this? Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are simply suggesting because you had a bad experience. But one who has no such experience, why should he follow your advice?
Paramahaṁsa: Actually if anyone looks at Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically see that it is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got our argument, logic, everything. Why should we blindly follow?
Gaṇeśa: The results can be seen practically that those who are following the Bhagavad-gītā written by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are giving up these nonsense activities.
Prabhupāda: Letters are posted?
Paramahaṁsa: No, not yet.
Prabhupāda: How they can deliver if you don't post?
Paramahaṁsa: Well the next time someone goes in. This evening someone can post.
Prabhupāda: There is no letter box?
Gaṇeśa: There's not one close. I can post them tonight.
Dr. Copeland: Well, when I first came in, I asked you why were you so successful, and you said, "I don't know how you measure success," and now you're measuring success by numbers, and that's not fair. That's not logical.
Prabhupāda: No, my standard of success is little different. Of course, this is success. Everyone is saying I am successful. So it is not unsuccessful. But my standard of success is little different. So even if it not fully successful, still, the results are there.
Dr. Copeland: Ah, fair enough.
Prabhupāda: That is called payi-nukuta-nyāya.(?) And when I find full successful, just imagine what is that. This is partial success.
Dr. Copeland: (laughing) That's called "touche."
Prabhupāda: This is the logic, that the partial success is this, and when it will be full successful, you cannot imagine that, what is.
Dr. Copeland: (Tape garbled) Ācchā. I don't want to ...
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Satsvarūpa: Time zero. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Time zero?
Satsvarūpa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Satsvarūpa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked.
Prabhupāda: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero?
Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then.
Prabhupāda: So that is not philosophy.
Śrī Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter.
Prabhupāda: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?"
Harikeśa: They say it's an accident.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Kṛṣṇa dāsa, some scientists say that there is no life in the other planets, and some scientists said there may be. So who is correct?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, didn't the Yamadūtas... You stated in your lecture yesterday that the Yamadūtas said that what is truth is what is in the Vedas. So I assume from the Vedic knowledge that there is life on other planets. Logically speaking also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you say there is no life?
Paramahaṁsa: But the scientists are saying, though, that the nearest star to our... You know, they consider the sun a star. And that the nearest star to ours is four light years away. Which means that it's... They do not believe that there's life in this entire solar system, in the planets nearest us, the moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter. They assume it's either too cold...
Prabhupāda: No, we say in the sun there is life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this Bhagavad-gītā science to the sun-god." So? Sun-god is dead stone, and Kṛṣṇa spoke to him?
Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad-gītā, everything is explained very scientifically, not, I mean to say, a sentimental explanation, no. Logically, scientifically.
Prof. Olivier: The problem as I see it, of course, is how to get modern man to make this study in depth that is contained or outlined in this book. Especially when you are caught up in an educational system that denies a place to this very concept or even the philosophy of it, it's...
Prabhupāda: The modern education, they do not accept soul?
Prof. Olivier: Part of it in theory perhaps, and at the junior stage. But as they...as we advance, there is either a complete neutrality or a...just a simple rejection of these truths.
Prabhupāda: They do not accept soul.
Prof. Olivier: They accept the soul, I think so, but they do not care to analyze what it means.
Prabhupāda: Oh. And it is without analyzing this, what is the education? First of all this should be analyzed, what is the distinction between a dead body and a living body. That must be analyzed. Otherwise what is the education? We are dealing with this body. The body is always dead. Just like a motorcar with driver and without driver. The car is always a lump of matter. Similarly, this body, with the soul and without the soul, is a lump of matter.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise just animal.
Prabhupāda: Simply animal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is very logical.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we call all the women "mother"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And treat it like mother. Not only call, but treat it like mother.
Harikeśa: Actually we have not even any idea how to treat mother.
Prabhupāda: Learn it. At least mother should not be proposed for sex. This much you can learn. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. (break) ...two questions, that they have not gone to moon planet and they cannot make even a chicken egg, you make great propaganda.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The rascals will be proved that they're really rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're saying, "To make human being." First let them make an ant or an egg.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Then? (Bengali) "You cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and you are telling that 'I shall now catch cobra.' "
Harikeśa: Isn't that "shooting the rhinoceros"?
Prabhupāda: Shooting?
Harikeśa: The rhinoceros or hippopotamus or some... You're trying to shoot some big animal, and if you can't do it everybody will say, "Oh, he could never do it anyway." And if he does it they all praise?
Prabhupāda: No, no, to kill animal is not very heroic. Nonsense. Innocent animal wandering and you kill. "Oh, very great hero." Again he deserves to be kicked on the face. All action, they are simply rewarded with kicking on the face. Why should you kill animal? Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. If you are killed, you feel pain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is desire, how it is living? It is dead body. Stone, stone has no desire.
Harikeśa: The spirit soul is...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, spirit soul is described as superior energy. He desires and he manipulates the matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).
Harikeśa: It's very logical, step by step by step by step. Actually when it's seen from the point of view of the desire of the living entity, it makes perfect sense because he's got these senses and the sound, and then in order to hear, there has to be a vehicle for the sound, and then there has to be an instrument. And then in order to touch there has to be the vehicle and the...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: So therefore, from that point of view, it's very logical.
Prabhupāda: This is the point, you have to...
Harikeśa: Trying to do it the other way is impossible. From the...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Kīrtanānanda: No reservations yet?
Prabhupāda: All right just to understand? If truth is there, there is no question of experiment. And if experiment is there, that is not truth.
Kīrtanānanda: Perfectly logical.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: That is correct.
Prabhupāda: It is contradiction.
Lokanātha: Their experiments are only speculation.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Kīrtanānanda: One wants to experiment, it means they don't know what is truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there is experiment, there is no truth. And if there is truth, there is no experiment.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If I am creating brāhmaṇas, how he is low class?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't agree that he is low class.
Prabhupāda: No, no. If he says we are creating brāhmaṇa, then where is low class? From logical point of view.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, from low class to high class, he says.
Prabhupāda: Actually, everyone is Brahman. So from this conditioned life of non-Brahman, if we create Brahman, what is the wrong there?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Original position.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Ah. (break) Manipuri.
Jayapatāka: Many Manipuri people are coming to Māyāpur now. Many. They wear a special type of uniform, the women, one pinkish dress.
Prabhupāda: For seeing our temple?
Jayapatāka: They are going everywhere. The Bengalis are going mainly to our temple. But they've come so far, they see everywhere, naturally. But also our temple without fail. (break) The Nabadwip Commissioner came and he was so impressed. Now he is thinking.... He is trying to.... He is a little bit greedy that so many things are going in Māyāpur. He is trying to think how he can include Māyāpur within Nabadwip municipality.
Prabhupāda: How it can be done?
Jayapatāka: That he is failing to do, but he is thinking, anyway. He told me. So many taxes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Material conception.
Jayapatāka: Bribe.
Guru-kṛpā: These people that say that they are God, they should be taken to court and thrown in jail for misrepresentation.
Prabhupāda: No, that is by.... There are some.... But first of all, if somebody creates God, then he should be challenged that "Where is your, what is your definition of God? If you were created God, corroborate with the definition. Then we accept." This is very logical. We can ask anybody, "What is your definition of God? What do you mean by God?" Then he has to explain. This is the point.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you told a man, "What is your definition of God?" And he could not answer. And you answered him that "God means the Supreme Being." And you said, "You are saying you are God, but you don't even know the definition of God. So how you are God?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do not know what is God, how can you say that "Here is God"? You cannot say. (break) One who is after God, he'll accept our philosophy. But the, those who are rogues, who want to banish God or kill God, they'll not accept. So we have to avoid such persons.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Persons who are too much sinful...
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.
Prabhupāda: He is the best.... He could have personally owned this palace and lived very luxuriously. He has got the means. But he did not like that. He gave it to the Vaiṣṇavas. So money cannot solve the problems. That is not possible.
Devotee (1): This is a very logical argument of preaching. When you tell them that the standard of happiness is not material opulence, people are willing to accept, because they see they are not becoming more happy.
Prabhupāda: They think like that, but that is not the solution of problems. So you discuss on this point.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They think like that because of false propaganda. So if we counterattack with the right propaganda, people will hear it.
Prabhupāda: So why you cannot write propaganda? You should. You are preaching. You must meet them and must convince them that simply getting money is not the solution of the problem. (microphone rattling) That you have to convince.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now these statements are quite scientifically valid and sound. Now this will be verified in our next slide that is called the axioms. This is called structure of a theory. In scientific disciplines, specifically in mathematics, now scientists work with a beginning called axioms. There are two types of axioms. First one is logical axiom, and second one is theoretical axioms. Now from these axioms, by inference, actually one deduces these theorems. That's in the second block. From there, by observation, we have this object of study. Now the basic question is wherefrom these axioms coming from? The starting point, axioms, they take it for granted, and actually there is no proof. It is beyond proof, beyond any scientific proof.
Prabhupāda: Vedānta-sūtra means all axiom. Vedānta-sūtra, that is all axiom. Axiomatic truth.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the way that science works, also they depend on axioms. But actually, when one analyzes this a little thoughtfully, one should come to the conclusion that actually these axioms are coming from the Absolute. So our first proposition that in order to understand life and matter one must have this, er, some knowledge of the Absolute Truth is scientifically sound.
Prabhupāda: I tried to explain something in the beginning of Īśopaniṣad, my lecture in the Conway Hall, what is that Absolute Truth. "Introduction." I have given the example that the Vedas say cow dung is pure. This is axiomatic truth. Now if you analyze cow dung you'll find all the antiseptic properties are there. This is axiomatic.
Harikeśa: But there's nothing else to do for them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. Now see, there is no soul. Why no soul? How foolish it is. "We believe." You believe something nonsense, it has to be accepted? Where is the difference of analogy?
Harikeśa: (laughs) They have to give up.
Prabhupāda: Analogy, the more the points of similarities are there, it is perfect. That is the logical conclusion. Everything is there similar, why you should deny the other? How rascaldom it is. Common sense.
Hari-śauri: He was a little bit confused because first of all you quoted śāstra, said everything was from śāstra. Then again you said "Forget the śāstra; this is logic." (laughter) He couldn't figure out how they both came into play. And then at the end you said that religion is logic.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is religion. If you have to accept the supreme authority, then as soon as you violate you are punishable. Very common sense.
Dayānanda: No, it's just like you said, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's given by the Supreme Lord.
Prabhupāda: Apart from Supreme Lord, it is a law of nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is logical, it is factual.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the law of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. The law, nature's law is acting like that. How you can avoid the laws of nature? If some young man says, "No, no, I'll not become old man," will the law of nature excuse him? Because you does not like? You have to become old man.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
The law of nature is working so strongly, but this rascal is proud of his own belief. This is foolishness, mūḍha.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Rascaldom, enviousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no. Rascaldom includes everything. If you say "rascal," then he includes everything. The so-called scientists say "Oh, after this..." The Communists, when I was talking with Professor Kotovsky, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything's finished." Such a big professor. Just see. Why everything finished? We see this life, stage by stage, one stage is coming after another, another stage is coming, another. Why do you say finished?
Prabhupāda: Astrology... I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says, "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say, "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket..."
Prabhupāda: How it is chance?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so...
Prabhupāda: Your destiny. Then your destiny.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer...
Prabhupāda: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan.
Prabhupāda: Nephew, nephew of Ford, that's a fact. Alfred is from the daughter's side. So the present Mr. Ford, his nephew, certainly, because daughter's side. His mother is the daughter, granddaughter of Henry Ford. Alfred's mother is the granddaughter of Henry Ford. Therefore the present Ford is the maternal uncle of Alfred.
Maṇihāra: "This will be a cultural gateway of India for the people of the world. Hyderabad is the South Indian headquarters for ISKCON in India. The magnificent Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Madana-mohana temple at Nampally Station Road, inaugurated by Swami Prabhupāda, will serve as a center of the cultural, spiritual, educational and social activities given to uplift the lives of people here. According to Śrī Mahāṁśa Swami, the president of the Society here, the devotees will hold seminars in colleges, factories, business centers, universities, schools, etc., to teach the techniques of spiritualizing the day-to-day life. Deity worship accompanied by the constant chanting of the holy names will be a special feature at the center. Besides, there will be daily classes in Sanskrit, Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam, and the Upaniṣads. There will be a Vedic library consisting of Swami Prabhupāda's books and various books on comparative study of religion. A cassette library will be a special feature here. Devotees will travel into towns and villages and do saṅkīrtana for the uplift of the masses. ISKCON Hyderabad is introducing for the first time in South India its major 600 acre community farming project, 40 kilometers from Hyderabad, to benefit about 20,000 villages. Besides regular free nutritional food distribution program, ISKCON is also planning to set up a model high-yielding 600-cow dairy farm, handloom centers, nature-cure hospital, and gurukula school project. Swami Prabhupāda's most substantial contribution, however, is to be found in his books, a veritable storehouse of knowledge and wisdom. He has written more than 50 books so far, explaining the principles of Kṛṣṇa or God consciousness in a logical, practical, and scientific way. Through his books people are understanding the eternal wisdom of the ancient Indian scriptures. That ISKCON has made a significant contribution to the intellectual, cultural, and spiritual life of contemporary man is obvious from the fact that people of all ages and..."
Prabhupāda: A very important article.
Gargamuni: A very good article.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And it details everything. So you purchase some copies.
Prabhupāda: No, we have this English translation. This is in French translation, in German translation.
Dr. Kneupper: How does one decide... There are so many translations. How does one decide...
Prabhupāda: That depends on your philosophy. You are reading so many books. How do you select, "This is nice." That depends on your philosophy. But if you accept it that it is spoken by God, then there is no argument. But why should you accept it, spoken by God? You read it, whether how much logical, how much full of knowledge. Then you can say. The same thing. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "Within this body there is the soul, and because the soul is there, therefore body is changing." So anyone can... Any layman can understand. Things are there like that. So there is no difficulty. If we take, "Oh, this description, the transmigration of the soul-Hindu idea." Why Hindu idea? It is science. As soon as we consider it "Hindu," then it becomes sectarian. Then you will say, "I have got my Christian idea. Why shall I take your Hindu idea?"
Dr. Kneupper: What is your view towards Christianity?
Prabhupāda: Christianity is to some extent, but you have got different edition of Christianity. So far I know, as soon as they say, "Christian," immediately the question is, "To which Christian party you belong?" What is that?
Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think?
Mahāṁśa: It's always changing. They simply...
Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one... My father had invited me back home for something. The scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying, "We don't see God. There is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything.
Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God?
Vāsughoṣa: They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad-gītā to them, they are silent. They can't say anything but they still refuse. They don't accept it, but they can't deny it.
Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hm. What is that? I have taken.
Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh?
Prabhupāda: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhuvaneśvara...
Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhuvaneśvara after fifteen days, no?
Prabhupāda: ...Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Māyāpur, then Vṛndāvana, then Bombay.
Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical.
Guru dāsa: "Penny wise, pound foolish."
Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like (indistinct) getting all this trouble. (break) ...at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one day we will find out what to, how to, this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. (break)
Prabhupāda: Harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) ...that sound all the time. (sounds of birds)
Girirāja: Do they have many birds in Bhuvaneśvara?
Prabhupāda: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Give me little tangerine.
Hari-śauri: Tangerine?
Rāmeśvara: I was just telling Jagadīśa that you said you were confident that the Indian government understands that this movement is turning the whole world towards Indian culture. So it seems logical that one day it will endorse us.
Prabhupāda: They are endorsing. They stopped cow-killing.
Rāmeśvara: They are endorsing?
Prabhupāda: They have stopped cow-killing.
Rāmeśvara: They stopped cow-killing. Prabhupāda said that it is directly our movement...
Prabhupāda: It is not Vinobha Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped.
Rāmeśvara: So it seems that as our movement grows more and more...
Prabhupāda: Strong.
Rāmeśvara: ...then America will more and more be considering active stopping of Communism. It'll be logical.
Prabhupāda: Everything will be stopped, all bogus social, political or religious systems. They will be all stopped.
Rāmeśvara: Then this will be a natural development of the growth of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Two things: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). As the duṣkṛtā—na māṁ duṣkṛtā mūḍhāḥ—will be reduced, the sādhu will increase. Or the sādhu will increase, the duṣkṛta will decrease.
Rāmeśvara: This conflict will be global. It will affect the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are cheaters.
Prabhupāda: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism...
Prabhupāda: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the..., they have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even the greatest challenge...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in science. Everybody's saying the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops, seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science, observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say, "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says, "theory." He doesn't say, "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is "theory."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also say that you cannot prove this ātmā by experiment.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination.
Prabhupāda: Śabda-pramāṇa. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.
Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is logical positivism, saying that... How, there's a house. Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.
Prabhupāda: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say they cannot see.
Prabhupāda: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book this logical positivism.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very interesting and very strange.
Prabhupāda: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
- paripraśnena sevayā
- upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
- jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
- (BG 4.34)
Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darśinaḥ. She has seen your father. So you submit, praṇipātena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darśinaḥ. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we can utilize these theories...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to disprove their own theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.
Prabhupāda: There is no experiment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Logical.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know what the meaning of logic is.
Prabhupāda: Orphan. Orphan means, does it, he has no father? He does not know who is his father.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Orphan means doesn't know.
Prabhupāda: We are not orphans. We are taken care of by our rich father, very wise father, very rich father, able father. We are not forlorn orphans. We have got respectability. And we offer our respect to father. We depend on father. We are safe. Everyone can become safe. The opportunity is offered. If you don't take, that is your misfortune. We are offering, "Every one of you can become safe, safely protected by the father, Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... (BG 18.66). Why don't you take advantage? That is your misfortune. If you want to remain unfortunate, don't (indistinct). These rascals, they want to remain. We have got knowledge for understanding whole philosophy. So try to convince this philosophy in Australia. And Kṛṣṇa will help you more and more. The more you try to convince others about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the more you become enlightened.
Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?
Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.
Prabhupāda: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me... Perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?
Mādhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.
Prabhupāda: Evolution..., apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch, after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.
Śatadhanya: They do not accept that beyond death there is life.
Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? If your childhood takes boyhood, why not next?
Śatadhanya: It's logical.
Prabhupāda: You see everything. That means the body is finished. The body is finished. Childhood body is finished. Why do you say "He is my son"? Although this previous body is finished, he has got another body. You are confident. Otherwise how you say "Here is my son"? Body has changed, but your son is there. And your friends say, "Oh, he is your son? Oh, I saw him, little boy." And he could not identify. The father knows that he is the same. That is the difference. The other man, he could not believe that child has become so grown up, young man. Father knows it. "No, he's the same child." That is the difference. Unless one understands this very first instruction, eternity of life, so-called scientists, philosophers—all nonsense. All rascals. Animal. The animal even. The so-called scientists, they are no better than the animals. That's all. They cannot understand the very simple thing. Animals cannot know. Otherwise any sane man can understand. (break) As soon as he changes the cloth, it is... No, I can change this cloth. That does not mean... I am the consciousness. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni... They never try to understand this. What is their advance? You are supporting these rascals. That means you do not understand about the soul. Do they not?
Śatadhanya: Yes. Nobody.
Prabhupāda: And it was born by tortoise incarnation.
Bhakti-prema: This is combined with description.
Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. What is beyond your conception, don't try to. So that is Vedic civilization. They were satisfied with information received from the Vedas.
Bhakti-prema: The first and last thing we have to prove logically that this is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Logically you cannot. Acintya. Logic comes when it is conceivable; but it is inconceivable. Where is your logic?
Bhakti-prema: But first to prove them right understanding we have to bring them.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. Acintya.
Yaśodā-nandana: If such a thing as going from one place to the other on earth, this is cintya, this is conceivable.
Prabhupāda: Argument is there when it is conceivable. It is inconceivable. Kṛṣṇa lifted Govardhana. Seven years old, six years old. How it is conceivable? But devotees, they are crying, "Oh, Giri-vara-dhārī." And the Māyāvādīs they say kalpanāyā. The Akhandananda was saying. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī is narrating something kalpanāyā and wasting his time?
| Page Title: | Logical (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 08 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=59, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 59 |