Industrial (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"industrial" |"industrialism" |"industrialist" |"industrialist's" |"industrialists" |"industrialization" |"industrialize" |"industrialized" |"industrially" |"industrials"

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa, we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa...? What is that Thursday?

Haṁsadūta: Thursday

Prabhupāda: Oh, industrial house. Industrial house.

Guest (2): It's called "Industry House."

Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House Dhruva's full name, you know?

Devotee (3): R.C.

Prabhupāda: R.C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R.D. Birla, Industry House, Church Reclamation...

Haṁsadūta: Bombay, West.

Prabhupāda: Bombay.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda viraheṇa me

Yugāyitaṁ, "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava-viraktir anyatra syāt. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter.

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Pradyumna: Mandara-kuṇḍa.

Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo Kobe, in Japan there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working and they are living in this nice building. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not?

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause. And Kṛṣṇa came-paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: The Indians would never be able to compete on the Britishers' platform.

Prabhupāda: No. Under the British rule, from the childhood they are subjected to the propaganda. We read one book, small book, by M. Ghose. The subject matter was England's work in India. That was a compulsory reading book in the schools. And in that book, it was simply stated that "we are uncivilized, but since the Britishers have come, we are becoming civilized. "This is the subject matter of that book, "England's work in India." So everything Indian... The Jawaharlal is the typical example—everything Indian is bad. That was his philosophy. Gandhi was trying to get the Indians back to village. His philosophy was that these capitalists, they are exploiting these poor men, so all these poor men, they should go back to village and be satisfied with the village economy, not to come out. Actually that's a very nice program. But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed-industrialization and attract the poor man and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charka.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ: (BG 7.15) "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."

Paramahaṁsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....

Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: But they have taken the position of brāhmaṇas in the society.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa's position is to teach brāhmaṇa knowledge, brahma-jñāna. That is brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: Proper. Kanpur proper.

Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we're living in Kanpur now.

Prabhupāda: Kanpur. It's a big city.

Krishna Tiwari: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Industrial city.

Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari.

Prabhupāda: Tiwari.

Krishna Tiwari: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend—he was just like my father-Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple.

Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it.

Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...

Reporter: Vaiśyas.

Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.

Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To get more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering... They are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollars." Although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollars? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something... Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is...

Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty.

Room Conversation -- September 19, 1973, Bombay:

Guest (2): Without any selfish interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You remain servant of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a servant discharges his duty very faithfully for the satisfaction of the master, similarly, you have got industry, if you work in this industrial work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa... Just like this boy behind you, he is working somewhere, getting good salary. But I had told him that "some percentage you must give to Kṛṣṇa." He is regularly giving.

Guest (2): If I feel I have love for Kṛṣṇa, is that enough to be a devotee.

Prabhupāda: But you must show how your love... Simply if you say... Suppose, anywhere in this material world, if you say somebody that "I love you," but there is no symptoms of love, then what kind of love? Love symptoms means dadāti, giving. First symptom. Just like when a boy goes to love a girl, he brings something. That is ordinary etiquette. So first beginning of love is dadāti, pratigṛhṇāti. If I love you, I must give you. And if you offer me, I will take it, I will take something. Pratigṛhṇāti. Exchange, giving and taking. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, give him to eat, and whatever he gives you, you also eat. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. And if you love somebody then you disclose your mind to him and try to understand him also. By these six processes the symptoms of love is there. But if you say that "I love you," but there is no action...

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father's opulence, mother's opulence. That I have seen practically. Practically all my students... Here, Brahmānanda, his father, at least he was a big industrialist, mother. But he did not like. He joined this movement. Similarly, Girirāja, his father is a big lawyer, rich man. But he did not like that. There are many, many students, their father's are... Śyāmasundara's father is big lawyer, rich man, businessman. He is the only son. But he did not like his father. So there are many... Even though he is not our student, still, I do not know. I have seen in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills. You know? That is a rich quarter. Very nice house. And one boy is coming, he is hippie, and riding on his car and going. Then I saw, although it is such a nice rich quarter, there are also hippies. That I could study. Why these boys are becoming hippies? And New York you know, the hippies are lying here and there in Fifth Avenue, Central Park, and they are worshiping pig. (laughs) You know that?

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: In Mathurā?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Mathurā, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathurā, Vṛndāvana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday Rūpānuga Mahārāja was telling me that about the calculation of time through the atom.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rūpānuga: Calculation of time from the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is talking about Bhāgavatam. By the light passing over the atom, you can calculate the time, the sunlight passing over the atomic particles.

Prabhupāda: So?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How is it done?

Prabhupāda: I have written that?

Rūpānuga: Yes, you have written, Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Yogeśvara: But ultimately isn't our idea that the city complexes shouldn't remain, that things should become more spread out to farm and rural areas?

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. If this man is fed up with this industry, he can go back to village and produce his own food. But he is attached to this industrial activity because he is thinking that "We are getting more money for wine and woman and meat. Let me enjoy." That is the perfect, imp... But if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, his consciousness will be purified and he will be made not interested this kind of work. He will go back to village and produce food. This is French?

Atreya Ṛṣi: No. It is new, 62 the new American. (BTG?)

Yogeśvara: This was your idea, to put the temple buildings on the magazine. Jayādvaita wrote me about that.

Prabhupāda: Very good picture, encouraging, that so many devotees in one center. It is very much pleasing to me. I started single-handed.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome:

Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that, "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.

Bhagavān: They like to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: It's not that people like to be idle.

Prabhupāda: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service because they are assured of their family, protection, medicine, food, education. They did not like. Never mind, it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: No that is not the point. Point is that everyone should be guided by the brain. Therefore the brain must be maintained. That is our point.

C. Hennis: Well, I would say, to the extent that it has a bearing on improving a man's position in his job, improving his skills at work, and improving his ability to represent his fellowman in trade unions and that kind of thing, we are concerned with it. We are concerned with generally improving his general culture, his general education, and in particular his education as a worker in relation to industrial and trade union life in general. We hope that by this means a man will improve his status, and by improving his status, he will have other things to think about than just getting drunk. So that's the...

Yogeśvara: We find that in our society, all of our men, in whatever particular capacity of work they have, are now hundred times more productive than they were before they came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness because now they have found peace of self, and therefore they are in a better position to execute their prescribed duties successfully.

C. Hennis: Are you saying that they do more work?

Yogeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No. Do work intelligently. Not that to be very hard-working like ass, without any intelligence. Just like ass is the most hard-working animal, but it has no intelligence. You see? So we don't want that. We want working with intelligence. That is difference.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Well, as I said, to that extent we do try to improve a man's understanding, a man's understanding of the world, and I agree it's the developed world, the industrialized world, and the...

Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be...

C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains.

Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.

Yogeśvara: That is our movement.

C. Hennis: I think that that's a...

Prabhupāda: That is our movement.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: The big two wars of the world happened only on account of this industry. Do you know that? The cause is the big, big industry. Germany industrial, they produce goods. They must have market. But when they go to sell, there is no market. Britishers will not allow to sell them. The Britisher will take, purchase from them, and stamp it "Made in England" and sell it. And this is the cause of two big war. Therefore German declare twice war. Disaster. Therefore it is said, jagata ahitāya. Then? Go on.

Cāru: Purport?

Prabhupāda: No, the other śloka.

Cāru: Other śloka.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: You are not suggesting that all of that is just cut away completely, but that people...?

Prabhupāda: No, you require... First thing, you require to eat. So Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce sufficient grain, food grain, so that both the animal and the man, they will eat and become robust, stout, and strong. And they will be capable of working. So that is the first thing. But who is producing food grains? They are producing motor tires. When there is scarcity of food, will these motor tires help us? We shall eat motor tires? This is going on, so-called industrialization, producing unnecessary thing which is not required, and they are neglecting producing food grains. And I have estimated—I am traveling all over the world—that there are so much space even now that if you produce food grain, you can feed ten times of the population as it is. But they will not do that. They will create motorcars, and the whole street is congested. At any moment there can be accident, and if you have to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles off. Because the motorcar is there. I am diseased. I want to consult a doctor. So he must be in neighborhood. But I have to go thirty miles. And maybe, before going to the doctor, I may be finished, by accident.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1975, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: In South India.

Devotee: South India.

Devotee: (indistinct) (barely audible) ...industrialists they are making life very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Where, where?

Devotee: In India.

Prabhupāda: In India. Oh.

Devotee: One industrialist friend, (indistinct), who has come to Tehran, I visited him. Very, very rich industrialist, he built a temple, very nice temple, (indistinct), and the government was not pleased that he has built a temple and they came in and searched his house and they gave him 20,000,000 rupees penalty.

Prabhupāda: For constructing a temple?

Devotee: No, for taxes and but their real reason was they were not happy that he was spending his money constructing a temple. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Juhu Beach temple?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Don't mind. All the work is going on. It doesn't matter. (break) ...prayer, five times?

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1975, Mayapur:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Buffalo.

Prabhupāda: Yes, buffalos. Cow is very important animal. Therefore it is recommended to protect it. From social benefit point of view, it is essential that cow should be protected so that you can get lots of milk preparations and keep your health very nice. So many nice preparations can be made from milk. In New Vrindaban, the other farmers, they come. They are surprised to see: "Oh, so many nice preparations!" They are appreciating. They do not know. It is the industrialist who has introduced this meat-eating. Because they are attracting men from village to work in the factory, so they have made it a policy that "We shall eat cow's flesh. That's all. We don't require..." In Russia, practically, they eat only cow's flesh. They do not know anything else to eat.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in your books you've stated that the position of the cow is as important as the position of the brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm ? Yes. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. We offer respect to Kṛṣṇa as the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas. Brahminical culture and preparation from milk makes a man perfect for spiritual understanding. Therefore they are two very important items, go-brāhmaṇa hitāya ca. In the society, if there is no brahminical culture and no cow protection, that is animal society. That is not human society. We are trying to bring the animal society to human society to fulfill the mission of human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Vested interest.

Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...

Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?

Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be...

Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"

Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply.

Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life. So...

Justin Murphy: But that's not what the multinational corporations that enjoy using Australia's resources are going to say. All of the hills to the east of Perth are almost entirely made up of bauxite, from which of course, we get, not that, the stainless steel, but from which we get aluminium. Aluminium is a very... Bauxite is a very, very favored material now. The West Indies are rich in it, and a few other countries, but not many. Australia is now part of, as they call it, part of "the bauxite club." And Dr. Cairns(?), our deputy prime minister and treasurer, was some months ago talking with a number of people in the West Indies about fixing world prices for bauxite and eventually aluminium. America has Comalco and Alcoa, two very large international groups, have large interests in the bauxite in the hills around Perth. They are out to make money. They're in it to return money to their shareholders in America.

Prabhupāda: But therefore, there are two ways of living. One way of living is called material enjoyment, or sense enjoyment. This is one way of life. In Sanskrit it is called pravṛtti-mārga, "How to enjoy more, more, more, more, more." This is called pravṛtti-mārga. That is going on. The whole... At the present moment the whole civilization, throughout the whole world—everyone is trying to get more money. More money means more sense enjoyment. More money means more sense enjoyment. This is called pravṛtti-mārga.

Discussion -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.

Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRM. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: And he is in a good position materially.

Devotee (1): You spoke to three of those men in Melbourne last time.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Amogha: Those scientists who came to see you last year in Melbourne were also from that organization.

Devotee (1): The same place.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: Well he's a very..., actually he's a big man and therefore he's very busy. In their terms he's a big man. He had a lot of seminars yesterday taking him up late at night working. I'll send him something to read. (break) ...problem. As he sees it, the biggest problem is that the industrial civilization, the big companies and consumer society, are taking the natural resources at such a pace that they are causing pollution and they are causing in the future a great scarcity of certain products, and, in other words, he thinks they're ruining the earth.

Śrutakīrti: He said, "irreparable damage." They'll never be able to again restore what they've taken.

Paramahaṁsa: So he's very perplexed by the future, say, a hundred years from now, what will happen if we go on at the rate we're going, taking natural resources.

Prabhupāda: Just like they are taking petrol. This is natural resources. They are taking continually.

Paramahaṁsa: But he says the CSIRO, most of the people there are involved in researching how to exploit the natural resources more. So he's a little bit different because he's trying to present a clear warning that this is happening. But then again he doesn't have any potency to stop it. It seemed that when you were speaking to him he related bodily consciousness with the selfishness of the industrialists when they're exploiting natural resources like that.

Prabhupāda: They are doing so many things. They are killing cows for their own benefit. So many animals they are killing. Birds.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: The industrialists and technologists say that they will keep using and using and using, and when they run out they will invent something else to take the place. When they run out of oil then they will use sun energy or some other energy. And whenever they say that they're running out of something, they say, "Oh, we'll invent something, and we'll do something to arrange it."

Prabhupāda: Why they are thinking of the future? And they do not think of themself that whether he was going to be a cat and dog. He is thinking of industrial resources future and not for himself.

Śrutakīrti: It shows that it's a natural tendency to think about the future.

Prabhupāda: Is there, certainly.

Śrutakīrti: Yes. But because they are in ignorance they have to think of so many other things for the future, and they're not thinking of themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, no, in future if you become a shrub like this, what you are going to do for that? This may be also your future. Now there are so many hells for different kinds of sinful activities. Everything is described.

Morning Walk -- September 1, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So miserable condition... That is our conclusion, that either you remain this side or that side, it is miserable. By mental concoction you think that "This is better than that." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says frankly, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That is only shelter. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti (BG 8.15). (break) ...take Kṛṣṇa's words as it is. Everything is there. He said, "This material world is duḥkhālayam; it is the place of suffering." Industrialist, businessman, anyone, even ordinary man, actually everyone is suffering, but everyone is thinking, "I am happy." (break)

Brahmānanda: ...because there is some sex pleasure, that makes it tolerable.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the, what is called, topmost ignorance, topmost ignorance, that "This is happiness." So the materialistic person means only for that happiness they are suffering so much, this way. They agree, "Yes." Just like Dr., er, Bon Mahārāja was speaking that they are talking freely?

Brahmānanda: Oh, about homosexuality.

Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. What is the wrong? It is pleasure." They take it as pleasure.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have become more than Śaṅkarācārya.

Dr. Patel: They have seen the...

Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization, and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America.

Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was capable of transforming that labor into material unfortunately and...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program.

Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not.

Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister.

Morning Walk -- October 6, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: ...appears it is very clean city.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This area is downtown, it's not so clean. Downtown is not so clean. This area is.

Prabhupāda: This is residential or industrial?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Over here is all residential, European apartment houses. And along the beach there is all hotels. This is a very big resort area in South Africa. There's a... Whole south coast, going down for about eighty miles, is all resorts. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...English-made city?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Durban is English city. Capetown has Dutch influence.

Prabhupāda: It resembles Melbourne. Melbourne. Australian Melbourne, this quarter resembles. (break) ...from Indian Ocean?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Indian Ocean.

Prabhupāda: Africa, one side Atlantic, one side Indian. (break) ...is growing on the sand, and they say there is no life in the sand. (break—windy beach) ...Bhoga. Bhoga means sense gratification, and aiśvarya, opulence. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām: (BG 2.44) "Those who are lost of consciousness, such persons become attached to sense gratification and material opulence," bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, "and not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ: "How to become spiritually liberated, they do not care for it." These things do not interest them.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Prabhupāda: Mass communication or no…

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Radio, and things like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want to make mass communication, you can do anything. (break) Due to industrialization, all intelligent men, they came in the city. In the village it was deserted. So there was no improvement in the village, and people preferred to come to the city, means industry, business. So India's basic principle was village life. Now that is lost. The intelligent class men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they left villages for earning more money in the cities, and only the śūdras, less intelligent class of men, less than śūdras, they remained. So what they will do? So village became deserted. Still you’ll go and see in Indian villages, especially in Bengal, so many big, big palatial buildings, they are lying vacant.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: I mean the industrial revolution has really produced a sort of a turmoil in the social set-up...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because the machine has produced good, and the benefit has been taken over by the...

Prabhupāda: Ugra, ugra. This has been described in Bhagavad-gītā, ugra karma.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Ugra karma.

Prabhupāda: Instead of making life simplified, they have made it a turmoil.

Dr. Patel: And then the whole society has been so entangled in this things. Independently (indistinct). In this way this industrialization, raising of the wants of men, and then production for the fulfilling of their wants. Only men engaged all the twenty-four hours in this fulfillment of the wants. All the machines are grinding for that. Production of the goods, not for the good... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Karl Marx, why not others?

Dr. Patel: Karl Marx is the grandfather of all of this.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is concocting, he is an āsura. Hm? Na vidur āsura ajana (sic). Pravitti ca nivṛtti ca na vidur āsura ajana (sic).

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1976, Mayapura:

Hṛdayānanda: Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted. Chinese Communist philosophy, does anybody know? What is that? What philosophy? They have got some philosophy.

Hṛdayānanda: They're emphasizing industrial development. Everyone, the entire country, is mobilized for developing industry, economic benefits, so everyone can enjoy nice material life under...

Prabhupāda: And that is the philosophy of the Western countries.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Siddha-svarūpa: Actually there is.... There is two factions in the Chinese schools now. One is saying to.... They're both materialistically based, but one is trying to stay on a position of self-sufficiency economically and not take from other countries or even trade, and the other school is to industrialize. And they're always fighting with their...

Prabhupāda: Oh, there are two schools?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1976, Mayapura:

Siddha-svarūpa: If their main leader, Mao Tse Tung.... He's more of that school, but there are.... They call them revisionists. They say they're like the Russians, and that they're just.... They're always attacking them for wanting to copy the West. It's their same attack. They attack the Russians for becoming capitalists. They're puritan. They're trying to have pure communism. They have very great ideals, and the other school wants.... They think that they want to get in on the action of the trade and industrialization. But they are actually about equal in power. It's interesting. Right now, actually, it's very hard to get into China because there's a new feud that has come to the surface. There's top leaders that have been taken through the streets, denounced as being materialists, and they've taken their clothes from their wives' closets with mink coats and fancy clothes...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all.... We shall first of all try to sell our books without any discussion. "As trade..., as trade representative, we have come. See our book." Go to the professors, go to the.... "We have got this support," like that.

Meeting with Bankers -- April 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Indian (1): Now Mahārājajī has told you the story about the Kuvera of the old days. I will tell you the story of the Kuveras of the today. That is us. In fact, it was in a paper. There was a cartoon. A bank manager, means today's Kuvera, was sitting in an office, and he received a call, such and such big Dalmiya or Birla, "We want two lakhs of rupees just now." He said, "Yes, come along. Here is our Swamiji. He'll pay you two lakhs." Then there was another call. There was some industrialist or a small-scale industrialist man. He said, "I want to start an industry. Could I get a lakh of rupees as a loan from you?" He said, "Yes, yes. Please do come along and we'll make some arrangements." Then he also. And ultimately the third picture in the cartoon, that the manager—that is today's Kuvera—he goes out of the bank. He is standing on the gate, and he says to that caukidāra, (Hindi punchline-laughter). It is today's Kuvera is not in any position to give anything. He also wants your blessings, you see, in fact.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Morning Walk -- April 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: His wife received us very nicely.

Dr. Patel: Very cultured people. My cousin's daughter is married to his nephew, Modinagarawala. He's a big architect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, Modi, he...

Dr. Patel: This Modi, is, I mean, an industrialist, but his nephew, an architect.... My niece was studying in London, and she married with him in England. Intercommunal marriage.

Abhirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Abhirāma: I have seen in Miami Beach that one man was found dead in his apartment, and he was living poverty-stricken. His whole place was full of rats and cockroaches. When they investigated his file they found that he had eight million dollars in the bank and in stocks. But all of his friends said he couldn't spend one penny his whole life, because he was too cheap. So even though he was a rich man, actually he was a poor man.

Dr. Patel: But, sir, there are some beggars here in Bombay who have got one and two lakh rupees. You have read the railway(?) story about couple of beggars. They rounded up, and they had money.

Prabhupāda: No, I am also a beggar. I am also beggar.

Morning Walk -- April 16, 1976, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Brāhma-muhūrta... (Hindi) I take my bath at three o'clock, so it is all right for me. I'm never falling in all these ways. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers.

Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell.

Prabhupāda: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees."

Dr. Patel: Not that, sir, even that, there is no jobs.

Prabhupāda: But he thinks there is job. He leaves.

Dr. Patel: Yes, they come here in search of job.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They suffer. They live in the huts and very nasty place, still expecting.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ekaś candras tamo hanti. Stars, they cannot do anything; they simply glitter, that's all. Glow-worms.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy joined our temple here, he was attending a very well known college and straight A's in physics, a scientist. So his parents were a little concerned. His father is a very big professor at California Institute of Technology, the biggest technical school in America. His mother is a professor of anthropology, and she is in the family of millionaires from Germany, German industrialists, so they were very concerned. So they came to visit their boy at our temple, and now the mother is coming regularly, giving nice donations and sometimes spending the weekend.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Dānavīr: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So give him nice. He's living with us?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 13, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...attracting men to the city.

Devotee (1): Because everyone is leaving the city.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Hari-śauri: But not from an industrialist's point of view.

Ambarīṣa: The cities are simply becoming for the low-class people. Cities are simply filled now with the low-class people. No respectable people can walk safely in the streets.

Devotee (1): In Detroit at five o'clock it becomes like a ghost town. No one walking. They are all afraid. If low-class people move into the buildings, everything becomes rundown, not kept up. So now they're investing millions and millions of dollars to build new buildings, new stores, to make it attractive again.

Prabhupāda: They'll not attempt to make the low-class men high class. Huh? Why they are lacking that point?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually the high-class man and the low-class man, their activities are the same. Simply they are living in bigger and smaller houses. They smoke the same cigarettes and they drink the same.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say why not make them high class.

Morning Walk -- June 13, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: It is just like Jagannātha temple.

Hari-śauri: That, right in the distance there with the light on the top. Yeah, same design. (break)

Devotee (2): ...after us anymore because they don't have the money.

Prabhupāda: Detroit has got no money? Such a big industrial city. Neglected. They have got money.

Hari-śauri: They're not keeping this park up very well.

Prabhupāda: No. Because nobody comes here.

Hari-śauri: Too dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Hari-śauri: Many of the big parks in the big cities, they are full of thieves and all kinds of other people.

Prabhupāda: That means they cannot improve the condition of the people. Just like at the airport, everyone is checked. There is no gentlemen. Why everyone is checked? That means the whole mass of people, they're all rogues and thieves. Therefore it is necessary to keep an ideal, an ideal class of men brāhmaṇas. Then people will follow. But there is no such.... Everyone is coolie. That's all. Everyone is. They are making everyone coolie. Coolie civilization. One officer came to see me in Perth, Australia. So I told him, this is a civilization of fourth-class men. You remember?

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Jayādvaita: We got a phone call today from someone in Kalamazoo-it's many hours away. And he met some devotee in a store who was there for purchasing something, and just by talking for a few minutes he decided that he wanted to come here and see you in Detroit. So he was calling on the phone, when would you be here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) If we get this land we can cultivate some grains, foodstuff. On account of this water facility you can grow so many things, vegetables, fruits, foodgrains, very nice. Keep cows. (break) Industrial civilization will fail. They are manufacturing simply cars. The time is approaching very swiftly when there will be no more demand for cars.

Mādhavānanda: Already it's failing. They are making so many cars now, and people aren't purchasing. In the newspaper, you see big pictures of huge miles of lots of unsold cars. The whole motorcar business, industry, is going down.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have another trick. Now they make them very cheap so the cars will break down every year.

Prabhupāda: But if I don't want it, either cheap or dear, who cares for it? If I don't want that. There was a statement by some Pope that "If the crown of England is offered to me at very cheap price, so why shall I accept it? What shall I do with it?" That is the..., that if I don't want a car.... Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car?

Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like.

Room Conversation -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. English everyone knows. The Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh son. They were cousin brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying, "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." So from the childhood he was so inimical, that "I have got some English blood in my body, my mother is English, father German, so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact, I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. In our childhood in school, a book was there, "England's Work in India." One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "white man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsees in Bombay, they were the first-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called saheb quarter. In our childhood we used to say saheb quarter. Saheb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is saheb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana aṇgrejī mandira. The same impression. To become saheb, that was great prestigious. Yes.

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why the American government likes him. A lot of big politicians in America are backing him because he's anti-Communist and he's a big man in Korea.

Prabhupāda: So he's already a big man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's an industrialist.

Rāmeśvara: He became famous during the Korean war with the Chinese. He fought against the Chinese, and then he became very wealthy. As a result of that war he became very wealthy. He was selling ammunition.

Prabhupāda: America was in favor of Korea?

Rāmeśvara: They were trying to prevent the Chinese from conquering.

Prabhupāda: During Truman's?

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Hari-śauri: So all I have to do is just make some working arrangement.

Prabhupāda: No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Kṛṣṇa is giving you instruction. Just like food, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). You produce anna. Kṛṣṇa never said that you produce tire tubes. Never says.

Hari-śauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there.

Hari-śauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now.

Prabhupāda: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Hari-śauri: Then there's always a coal fire as well.

Prabhupāda: Such kind of argument can be counteracted by so many other argument.

Harikeśa: We just see practically that we're enjoying life. We can't...

Prabhupāda: Enjoy life means... Even the industrialists, they go to the remote village and have a peaceful house there. That is the anxiety, how I shall live peacefully. The poorer class, the workers, they live in the city, and the capitalist, he goes to a different place.

Jñānagamya: Vṛndāvana, they came to Vṛndāvana, those Indian industrialists. They were so nervous, always like this, "Who is here? Who is also here? Should I talk to him about business." Very nervous.

Hari-śauri: But variety is the spice of life.

Prabhupāda: Variety, there are qualities of varieties. Just like we enjoy varieties prasādam, and there is variety in the brothel also. Two qualities of variety. Variety is good, that's all right.

Evening Darsana -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they're asses. Asses, they want... Even in Tehran, I saw the ass. This is Indian civilization. Loaded.

Indian man: With pots or something.

Prabhupāda: Right. Some tons of things. The ass does not know why he is carrying so much load. Therefore mūḍha. What for he is carrying? What is his profit? He does not know. But he's carrying so much. "I am big industrialist. I have got so much business." What for you are doing industry? That he does not know. Ass. Karmīs are described as asses. They do not know what is the interest.

Indian man (2): How does it matter what people call Kṛṣṇa, whether they call Bhagavān or Viṣṇu or what, Kṛṣṇa? If it is just only one God. We are talking removing Kṛṣṇa from Gītā but putting Bhagavān there instead of Kṛṣṇa. How does it matter?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior authority than Me."

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is... Again this example (laughs). Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these..."No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here," Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence... In industry also: land labor capital, organization, four things. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money-useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha (?), he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just... In the Bhagavad-gītā, that is, yajñārthe karma. Everyone is karmī. So the karmīs, the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati. Whatever then can spare, they are offering. That is yajñārthe. If this money is taken and again if it is brought into karmī, then it is misleading. Karmīs are giving them. Just like people are giving us money. They are karmīs. But because they are giving us and we are engaging the money in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so the money is fully utilized. But if this money again taken and again to the karmīs....

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: "...because you are hoarding. But if you give..."

Prabhupāda: The industrialists... That is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them.

Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda, offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers.

Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied.

Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad.

Prabhupāda: So you cannot...

Gargamuni: It is a rotten building.

Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired?

Room Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Who?

Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdal(?) Gandhi?

Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialist they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. (break) So it is immediately cut.

Mahāṁśa: The door is ready, so when you go for a bath...

Prabhupāda: No, he can come.

Mahāṁśa: Now he can come?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa Swami is nicely doing (?).

Hari-śauri: He's very sincere.

Prabhupāda: And everyone likes him.

Room Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Temple means a center, educational center, education. Give them prasāda. Bring. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Commissioner: And we have centers through Tirupati all over the country in our important centers, we have got some centers.

Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know.

Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swamiji. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etc. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma-pracāra, veda-pracāra, all that we are doing.

Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda-pracāra. Why not come and join with us?

Commissioner: Yes, definitely.

Meeting with Endowments Commissioner -- August 24, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little ...

Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16 mm film.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press...

Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film.

Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be... How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuḍi from them, that's all. (Harikeśa laughing)

Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Our farming projects, very successful. Now here Badrukaji is also giving us some land.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Stop now. Don't divert attention.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a letter from Śrī Ambarish Sarkar, General Secretary of the Nadia District Congress Committee. "I had an opportunity to visit the Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir on the 12th August, 1975. It is absolutely a religious institution. Jayapātāka Swami has devoted all of his efforts and endeavors to organize and propound the sacred name of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I'm impressed by his charming manner and strength. Although it is a religious institution, this organization has performed many social services. Many poor and destitute families have had an opportunity to work and at the same time they have become worshipers of Lord Śrī Caitanya. To engage these workers, so many industrial centers have already been started, such as handloom cloth, printing, etc. I wish this organization, with its help of the local people, all success."

Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Honeydew melon.

Prabhupāda: Honeydew melon, oh very nice. In the upcountries still in the village during daytime they don't eat. During daytime they take some fruits and at night when it is cool, the cool ah, refreshing air, they make some cāpāṭi. One time, is it not?

Devotee (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Eh, (Hindi) In that night because in daytime it is so hot, it is embarrassing to cook and to digest also. Better take food, ah, fruit, this melon, and at night they take 3 or 4 cāpāṭis according to the... And good sleep. Very happy life it was, all over India. There was no question of poverty. People did not know what is poverty and now it is poverty. They do not get even sufficient food.

Hari-śauri: Industrialization.

Prabhupāda: Ugra-karma. I don't like industrialism.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Prabhupāda: Maharastra Province is rich? I don't think so.

Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharastra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of Maharastra is poor. There is not much cultivation.

Prabhupāda: But industry it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharastrians.

Mr. Malhotra: Hm?

Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders.

Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab for instance, they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is 4/5 of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab.

Prabhupāda: But it is always.

Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together.

Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...Dialectic Spiritualism.

Dr. Patel: You have taken their word.

Prabhupāda: It is not their words, but just to counter...

Dr. Patel: In fact, sir, Engels was a spiritualist, and his chela, Karl Marx, became materialist because he saw, accept poverty all round, due to the industrial revolution. He thought in that way.

Prabhupāda: As if he was ordained to do it.

Dr. Patel: But, well, he felt... He was a philosopher.

Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. He has moved poverty. He was in poverty-stricken...

Dr. Patel: He was extremely poor man. Yes, he died (indistinct). But that is what he thought.

Prabhupāda: That means poor fund of knowledge. That's it. These rascals will never go to the... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). They do not know this science, these rascals. They manufacture. And we have also learned to manufacture.

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, not so.

Dr. Patel: No, less than that. Ahmedabad was only four lakhs' population before. Now it is twenty lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere the population is increased. Why?

Dr. Patel: People have more interest because of the industrialization.

Gurudāsa: They attract people. They think they will be happy in the city.

Dr. Patel: Not that. Because they get more easy jobs in the city. You see, jobs.

Gurudāsa: How can they get jobs easy, when so many people are lying on the...

Dr. Patel: It is at least they can have some food. In the small villages they're not having.

Gurudāsa: In small villages food grows out of the ground.

Dr. Patel: They don't want to grow. They want to just give up, go to here.

Gurudāsa: That is an anomaly.

Dr. Patel: I tell you, this vicious propaganda of the government... I have got a small hill, fifteen bigas, on a highway, Bombay highway, with canal waters irrigating my land and a well with pump and everything. Last year we spent nine thousand rupees on fertilizer and all things and other paraphernalia, and pay for the servants. And they got paddy worth six thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: Three thousand lost.

Morning Walk -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And her controlling this younger generation. That is another point of...

Dr. Patel: They're putting black man without any penny in his pocket, like that.

Prabhupāda: In 1971 many papers astonished how one Indian is controlling so many white men. There, our paper became surprised. They cannot control even one white man.

Dr. Patel: This type of mental, sort of makeup, has been created after the industrial revolution, because...

Prabhupāda: These German people have accused that "The old man is sitting in Los Angeles and he has engaged all these young boys and getting money from them." The German propaganda. They're thinking that way, that I have some mind control power, I engaged these young men and they're getting money and I am enjoying.

Trivikrama: Everyone judges others from their own standard.

Prabhupāda: They're surprised, the neighboring people around our temple, "How do you live so comfortably? You have got so many cars and so nice house." But they are working hard like hogs and dogs and we are getting money without doing anything. They are envious.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun(?) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun(?) from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this... They fight will continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will suffer for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jhinna." But this commission, this Patita Lalan(?). "No, no," said, "It is... Otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point, that "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jhinna in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Government nei, public.

Guest (1): (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Theoretically, if our principles are adopted by the American people in general, as my disciples have done, then their whole industrial structure will be broken.

Guest (1): Not actually. Don't affect so much because all are not going to be... Even in India it is not.

Prabhupāda: This is one thing. This is one thing, that... No, they are taking seriously. And another thing is that if the public opinion becomes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will get vote and they'll capture government, because it is republic. That is another point, another. The most important point is: these boys who come to me, they forget forever their families or father, mother. No family. That is their great shock.

Guest (2) (Indian man): No, what is that? That is nothing. We see...

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the principle, why they are opposing it. They are not these transcendental meditator that here going and coming home, and they are doing all same, because they have no restriction. But my students, as soon as they come to this, they are not, no more going home. They will not touch any food, yes, because they have seen there is a (indistinct).

Room Conversation -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Satsvarūpa: Not Delhi?

Prabhupāda: No. Delhi has become important on account of capital.

Satsvarūpa: Politics.

Prabhupāda: Government.

Satsvarūpa: International government.

Prabhupāda: From business point... Now they're making Delhi industrially developed. That is new attempt. But Calcutta, Bombay, Kanpur is old... Calcutta is manufactured by the British. Bombay also manufactured. But Kanpur is older, very old. Kanyakubja. That Ajāmila upākhyāna?(?) Ajāmila?

Hari-śauri: Ajāmila.

Prabhupāda: Ajāmila story, that was in Kanpur. Very, very old city. Kanpur, Mathurā, they are very old cities. Allahabad, Prayāga. Prehistoric. Manipur. (end)

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Supplied by māyā, the machine, this, that. He has nothing to do. Karaṇ... This is also Vedic mantra. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Just like I am an ordinary man. If I want to do something, I ask one or two, "Do this." I ask somebody, "Bring some money." I ask somebody that "You do this." So if an ordinary man can do, why God should do anything? Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. He has nothing to do. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. He can do everything, because nobody is equal to Him, but still does not do anything. Why? Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). His energy are so mighty millions that simply by indicating the energy, it will do. This is God. This is God. Just like big man, big industrialist, he simply pushes his button, and the secretary comes: "I want this." Immediately. This is... Ordinary human being can do. So why God has to do? He'll simply dance with the gopīs. That's all. That is God. He'll enjoy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitā... That is God. Therefore everything is done by God's agent or His expansion. Otherwise God has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Simply indication. Here it is said that Īśvara, the Lord, is situated everyone's heart. He can understand "What this rascal wants." He's so kind, He's living as friend. "My dear son, please come back. Why you are desiring so many nonsense things?" But the child will not hear. He wants. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. He wants sense gratification this way, that way, that way, that way. So He gives him facility: "All right." And all facility. He wants to become a tiger, "All fixed." Nails, jaws, fangs—"Become a tiger." Yantra. The body is yantra, perfect yantra. That is supplied by māyā. Māyā.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: All beggars. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, poor beggars, right. And then a skyscraper full of beggars, and then they realize, "How they purchased a skyscraper? These people are collecting a lot of money."

Prabhupāda: We want that they should have necessaries without any difficulty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not like. They want people to be industrialists, working very hard in the factory.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They're envious because they're struggling for their own existence, and they don't like to see us not struggle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Envious. But if we develop this community project, farm, they cannot do anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they appreciate this farm projects.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why shall I work? I am working for my own..., for the village."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They like that. They would also... Probably they would respect if we did some businesses, some of our members.

Prabhupāda: We can do. Manager is there.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Still you can take advantage of it. What you are doing? Here is this nice statement. Here is the thought.

Yaśomatīnandana: Another, Home Minister, also is saying these same things, discourage the factories and industrialization...

Prabhupāda: This is ruination. Factory means ruination. Factory means destruction. And agriculture means construction. The father is going to the factory, and the children are starving-destruction. Go on reading.

Yaśomatīnandana: "The human being is the elder brother of all other living beings." (break)

Prabhupāda: Satkāra. Now, whatever you...

Yaśomatīnandana: Practical solution for all problems.

Prabhupāda: So...

Bhavānanda: Kīrtana? (break)

Girirāja: This morning you gave the hint that there might be envious persons coming to take away our properties, so in the GBC meeting we discussed this point, that... A committee of us six was made to resolve this. So basically what we did is we made a model trust deed which can be used for all of the Indian properties. There may be three trustees for each property. And the basic point of the trust deed is that the property rests with these trustees and that they have no right to sell or mortgage or dispose of the property in any way. That is the basic point. And then we have proposed three trustees for each of the properties. So...

Prabhupāda: But there will be finally the trustees. And there may be one advisory board to... Pick up some friends and make an advisory board. They are not final. Final is trustee. Anything to be done should be considered first of all by the advisory board, and then if it should be sanctioned by the trustees, then it can be done. So some friends, we can make an advisory...

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How much can you eat more than your share?

Prabhupāda: We have seen many persons... The other day, he was our member. One Mr. Agarwal? Very rich man. He committed suicide falling down from the bridge to the Ganges. What is that? Very rich man. The happiness cannot be attained in that way. Happiness is in Kṛṣṇa. It is so sublime that... Dhruva Mahārāja went for kingdom, and he performed austerities. When he saw Kṛṣṇa he said, "I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "I came to ask You something, but I am now fully satisfied." That is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir... yayātmā supra... (SB 1.2.6). You want to satisfy your ātmā. So that can be satisfied when you are fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise simply by material wealth, increasing your economic position, that is not... They do not know it. The European civilization, they are struggling very hard-colonization, industrialization, this... (end)