That is the Ṛg-mantra. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by these bodily comforts they will be happy. No. That is not possible. The real happiness is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. And anyone who will give him false hope that "If you get independence, then overnight you will become like this, like this, like that," that leader is very nice. If there is some political meeting giving only bluff, lots of bluffs only, and people gather there by thousands and millions to hear the bluff... Because... My Guru Mahārāja therefore used to say that this present human society is a society of the cheaters and the cheated. Somebody is being cheated and somebody is cheater, a combination of two things, cheater and the cheated, because they do not know the real interest of life. And anyone who will speak all nonsense and bluff, he will be very much adored. This is going on.
Independence (Lectures, Other)
Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Ḍukṛn, du-prata, kṛñ-prata, these are grammatical jugglery. So these Māyāvādīs, they coin words by grammatical jugglery. This word may be meant, may be meaning like this. They're all grammatical jugglery. Then nyāya jugglery. So they take advantage of this jugglery. Kṛṣṇa is not subjected to this jugglery of words. Kṛṣṇa keeps always His independence, and if you fulfill the condition, if you surrender unto Him, then He will be revealed unto you. Not by your jugglery of words. That is not possible.
Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam. Hṛṣīka means these senses—not these senses, but purified senses. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). Just like pranair arthair dhiyaḥ vaca. Prana, life; artha, riches, money; dhiya, intelligence; and vaca, speeches. So everyone using... Just like for national cause people are engaging life, they are sacrificing life. So many, for attainment of independence in India, so many Indians gave up their life. Pranaiḥ. So many people gave up their everything. We know during national movement, Mr. C. R. Das, a great leader of the Congress group, he sacrificed everything. He was a big, very big lawyer, barrister. He sacrificed his profession, he sacrificed his life—everything. So as we are sacrificing everything for attainment of some so-called national independence, the same thing, if we sacrifice for Kṛṣṇa, then our life becomes successful. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā.
And to induce him to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the whole Bhagavad-gītā was explained. And at the end Kṛṣṇa asked Arjuna, "What is your decision?" Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "You can do whatever you like. I have given you instruction, full instruction. Now whatever you like, you can do." This means every living entity has got a little independence. Kṛṣṇa, or God, does not interfere with that independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. At the last, also, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You do it." Kṛṣṇa can instruct us, "You do it." If I don't do it, that is my option. That option is always there. Kṛṣṇa does not oblige me. Otherwise, what is the difference between me and the stone? The stone has no independence. But I am a living entity; I have got my independence. So do you... Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with my independence. Voluntarily, if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, voluntarily if we serve Him, then our life is successful. Voluntarily. Hitvā anyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6).
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Then again extend. From children, you get... You get them married. Then again extension—daughter-in-law, son-in-law, grandson. In this way, we are increasing our so-called happiness. Ātma-sainyeṣu. And we are thinking that "These surrounding friends—society, friends and love, nation—will give me protection." In our country, we have seen. Gandhi struggled so, mean, hard for getting independence, thinking that "We'll be happy." But Gandhi himself was killed.
So this is called māyā. You try to understand māyā. Māyā means where there is no happiness, no fact, and still, we are struggling for it. This is called māyā. Try to understand what is māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Prahlāda Mahārāja says. Actually there is no fact, and still, we are struggling for it. The whole universe is like that. Even you are situated as Brahmā or you are situated as an ordinary insignificant ant, this struggle for existence is going on.
Yes. Very nice. So we should prepare ourselves to our healthy condition. That is our healthy condition. As soon as we understand that Kṛṣṇa created us... Kṛṣṇa created... There is no creation. Just like if I say that my hand is created, no, it is not created. As long as the body is there, the hand is there. Otherwise, there is no meaning of body. Similarly, we are not created. Kṛṣṇa is always there; we are also always there. And there are millions and millions of liberated souls who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa. They never misuse their independence. And we small quantity, we misused our independence. We wanted to enjoy separately. Therefore we are conditioned.
Prabhupāda: Oh, because you have got independence. Don't you see so many students come. They go away again. Yesterday Kīrtanānanda went to call Ranchora. He said, "Oh, I have forgotten this!" So you can forget. There is another student. He was also our student, Wally. "Oh, you can go immediately!" Suppose if you... "Oh, I don't care for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society. Who calls you? You can go." That independence is there. We can misuse.
Bhaktijana: But Kṛṣṇa will always be there if we want to go back?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṛṣṇa is always prepared to accept you. He's always prepared. But because He has given us independence, we misuse it and we fall under the clutches of māyā. That is our misfortune. We create this misfortune, and we can create our good fortune. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is to your good fortune. If you become māyā conscious, it is to your bad fortune. You are the creator.
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Kṛṣṇa's service," and they are happy in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Kṛṣṇaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
So we are one of the energies of the Lord, marginal energy. Marginal energy means if I desire... Because I have got little independence... Because Kṛṣṇa is fully independent, sva-rāṭ. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu avijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. Kṛṣṇa is sva-rāṭ, means "fully independent." But we are Kṛṣṇa's minute part and parcels; therefore we have got the independence quality, but not full independence. We are controlled. Just like you claim to be independent, Indian nation. But that does not mean that you are fully independent, each of you. You are dependent on the government. These things are very easy to understand. Similarly, a living entity has got independence, but not full independence. He cannot do anything without the sanction of God. That is his dependence. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭa. "I am sitting there." The living entity and the Supreme Person as Paramātmā, both of them are sitting in this body. That is explained in the Upaniṣad. Two birds are sitting in the same tree.
So our position is to be dependent on the supreme living force, God or Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. And He is supplying everything as we want. Because God is not poor. He is our father. Just like rich father, there is no insufficiency. In a rich family, the father is very rich, and the sons, they can draw anything from the rich father. Similarly, we can draw anything from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme father. But our, this so-called independence for sense gratification, will not make us happy. That is the position. You can independently try to become Brahmā, what to speak of this prime minister or this king or... You can become Brahmā, Indra, Candra. You can become. They are also living entities in higher position. Just like your president, he is also an Indian, but in higher position. That's all. Your prime minister, he is also Indian. Similarly, all these demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, they're demigods, they are highly posted as servant of God.
Everyone is under the clutches of these material laws. You cannot violate even an inch. And still the rascal, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, by false prestige, he's thinking that "I am the master." I was asking this morning that what is this independence meaning? Actually, where is independence? This independence, has it meaning? If you are completely under the rules and regulations of the material nature, what is the meaning of this independence? So those who are paṇḍita, they do not take it as independence. They do not take it. Therefore Sanātana Gosvāmī said, āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni. "I do not know what is independence, I am dancing like dog, independence." Therefore he says, āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni: "How independence I can get, that I do not know." Real independence is, as Kṛṣṇa puts in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). One who is intelligent, he sees that "My real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, birth, death, old age and disease."So when we get free from these four problems, that is real independence. Otherwise, there is no independence. I may dance with independence, but any moment I shall have to leave my country, my society, my friends, my family, any moment, "Get out immediately. No, no independence." That is my position. So that is intelligence.
We are not independent. Just like in the state, in your country, although you have observed the independence ceremony, but you are not independent. If you go... "Keep to the right," you go to the left, immediately your independence finished. You'll be punished. So this so-called independence is conditional. It is not absolute independence. If you want absolute independence then you have to go back home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are hankering after independence, but so long we remain in this material world, there is no question of independence. So intelligent man, when he inquires about, when he thinks over, that "I want independence from so many things, but I am not independent. I am forced to accept, then where is my independence?" When this question arises, then he is human being. Otherwise he's as good as the cats and dogs. Because the cats and dogs, they cannot inquire. Just like an animal is being sent to the slaughterhouse, he cannot say "Why I am... What I have done? Why you are sending me to the slaughterhouse?"
We are marginal potency. Why it is marginal? Because although we belong to the spiritual potency, but we have got tendency to come into contact of this material potency. Therefore it is called marginal, "this way or that way." That a slight independence which is there in every living entity, he can use that, and he may select either to live in the spiritual potency or in the material potency. Therefore the living entities are called marginal potency. So parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Although the energies of the Supreme Lord are innumerable—nobody can count or measure—but they are divided into three.
Now, even a love extended, so-called love extended, that nationalism, loving the countrymen, loving the humanity, that is also not perfect. We have got practical experience. In our country, in India, Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very nicely. He sacrificed everything, and for thirty-five years he simply struggled for the, I mean to say, independence of his country, of his countrymen. But the result was, at the ultimate end, he was killed by his countrymen. After loving so much his country, the result was that he was killed by his country. So in this material world the love is like that. It is never perfect. It cannot be perfect. So Lord Caitanya, taking compassion on these poor fellows, He taught love of Godhead. If you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will feel pleasure. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that "Every living creature is searching after pleasure, pleasure." Therefore we have presented this small booklet, that Kṛṣṇa is the Reservoir of Pleasure. If you can love Kṛṣṇa, then you will get pleasure. Otherwise, there is no pleasure. You will be frustrated. This is a fact.
Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. But foolish people could not understand. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Because foolish people, they thought that "Kṛṣṇa is one of the human beings. Why should we surrender unto Him?"
So we have got our independence. We may do whatever we like. But if we follow the sādhu, śāstra and guru, that is the way of understanding. That is the way of getting knowledge, to follow the instruction of saintly persons and scriptures and spiritual master. Then it is possible to reach the goal of life. And that was taught by Lord Caitanya. Prema-bhakti dilā loke lañā bhakta-gaṇa. Not only He alone, but always associated by His lieutenants and associates. We have seen the picture. Lord Caitanya is dancing and chanting with His principal associates.
"All right, give him. Give him." Kṛṣṇa is... This is freedom. There is no argument, "Oh, why Kṛṣṇa has arranged like this?" He arranges out of His causeless mercy. He can say, He can stop asking the individual soul. But He does not do that. Why He shall do? Then there is no meaning of independence. "All right, you want it? I have arranged it. Take it. Take." So He asks the demigod, "All right, he's asking from you? Give him. Give." So this is going on.
So therefore there are different kinds of literature because there are different kinds of people. But the ultimate literature is, the substance of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛṣṇe sva-dhāma upagate dharma-jñānādibhiḥ saha. It is..., there is a verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. When Kṛṣṇa was present He personally gave this Bhagavad-gītā and all knowledge. So many people took knowledge. There is another gītā, Uddhava-gītā. That was spoken to Uddhava. That is in Bhāgavata; this is in Mahābhārata, Bhagavad-gītā.
And in the śāstra the brāhmaṇas and the kṣatriyas, the higher castes, and the vaiśyas, they would never serve. Now there is injunction in the Bhāgavata: if a brāhmaṇa is in trouble he can become, he can take the profession of a vaiśya, but never take the profession of a dog. They never serve. Because as soon as one becomes servant, his independence is lost. So our independence... We can keep only our independence when we become servant of God, because there is no injustice.
So here it is said that kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās. Durnideśāḥ. Of course, you are my master, that's all right; whatever you order, I have to carry out. But sometimes the master orders that "You do this," which I should not do. We have got practical experience in our life. Sometimes we do something which is not to be done, but being carried away by lust we do so many nonsense things. So we are servant of this lust and anger. So one who is in sense, he says like this, that "I have served this kāma, krodha, but the result is that they are not satisfied."
Festival Lectures
If you don't join, there will be force, and you will be forcibly joined after that." So here, in the Kṛṣṇa's order, because He is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, there is no force. That voluntary. He says that "This is life. You surrender unto Me." But He could force Arjuna to surrender, or anybody, because He is Supreme Lord. But that force He does not apply because He has given us little independence. Therefore, if He forces, then His gift of independence is misused from His side. We are misusing our, that gift of independence, but for that reason, Kṛṣṇa cannot withdraw your independence. Just like you are independent citizen. You are... If somebody misuses that independence, he becomes a criminal, but still, the independence continues. You are criminal. You are punished. Again you are set free. That means you are given again independence. But again if you misuse, then again you are put into prison. Similarly, if the state cannot withdraw your independence, then what is the meaning of this independent country?
That means you are given again independence. But again if you misuse, then again you are put into prison. Similarly, if the state cannot withdraw your independence, then what is the meaning of this independent country? How God can withdraw the independence He has given to you? That He will not withdraw. It is up to you to use your independence properly. That proper use of independence is to surrender unto... We are suffering, we are manufacturing so many philosophical ways, but actual position is—that is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā—that we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, God. We are not working according to our particular duty. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It has got a particular duty: to serve the whole body. When it is unable to do it, it is painful, the physician or the surgeon says that "This finger should be amputated. Otherwise it will create disturbance to the whole body." Similarly, we are all part and parcel of the supreme whole, but not surrendering unto Him, misusing our independence, we are giving pain to the Supreme. Therefore He comes, that "You surrender. Don't give Me pain. You just abide by My order. That will give Me pleasure. You will be happy."
Don't give Me pain. You just abide by My order. That will give Me pleasure. You will be happy." That state of consciousness, to abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa, is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.
So Kṛṣṇa comes personally to canvass, that "This is not your proper order of life. You are misusing your independence for sense gratification and wandering through various types of transmigration of bodies, sometimes human body, sometimes dog's body, sometimes cat's body, sometimes demigod's body, sometimes rich body, sometimes poor body." "So you stop this business," Kṛṣṇa says. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "You have manufactured so many duties. That duties means you are manufacturing so many bodies. That's all." Why you have got different types of bodies? We have manufactured it. God has given us facility. I wanted to become such and such. He has given us facilities, "All right, you become such and such." If I want to become a tiger, God will give me all the facilities to become a tiger.
So it is not the government's desire that there should be hospital or prisonhouse. They can save so much money. But the people want it. A class of men, third-class men, they want this. They want to be diseased. They want to be criminals. So there must be some department for them. Just like Monte Carlo. So this is a facility for the living entities, for the slight independence which has been given by God to them. That's all. So material energy is there not by Kṛṣṇa's own will. You want it; therefore there is. Is that clear? Yes. (break) There will be no more. Is that possible? How many people are coming to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? You see? So therefore it must remain. Why do you grudge? But you be careful. That's all. That is your business. Any other question? (break)
Devotee: ...withdraw that independence, can we request Kṛṣṇa to force us to surrender to Him, due to our conditioning?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can request Him. And He sometimes forces. He puts you in such circumstances that you have no other way than to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Yes. That is special favor. That is special favor. Yes. My spiritual master wanted me to preach, but I did not like it, but he forced me. Yes. That is my practical experience. I had no desire to accept the sannyāsa order and preach, but my spiritual master wanted it. I am not very much inclined, but he forced me. That is also done. That is special favor. When he forced me, at that time, I thought that "What is this? What...? I am committing some mistake or what is that?" I was puzzled. But a little after, I could understand that it is the greatest favor shown to me. You see? So when Kṛṣṇa forces somebody to surrender, that is a great favor. But generally, He does not do so. But He does so to a person who is very sincere to Kṛṣṇa's service but at the same time he has got slight desire for material enjoyment. In that case He does, that "This foolish person does not know that material facility will never make him happy, and he is sincerely seeking My favor.
Actually, we are spiritual energy. We should voluntarily agree to be controlled by Kṛṣṇa. That is devotional service. That is devotional service. We are spiritual energy, and Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Spirit. So if we agree to be controlled by Kṛṣṇa, then we are promoted to the spiritual world. If we agree. Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with your little independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa say to Arjuna, "Whatever you like, you can do." That independence we have got.
So out of that independence we have come to this material world, to enjoy freely. So Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "You can enjoy freely." And we are trying to do that. But the result is that we are becoming entangled. We are given the freedom to work in this material world. Everyone is trying to become the master of the material world. Nobody is trying to become the servant. Only we, the Vaiṣṇavas, we are trying to become servant. The karmīs and jñānīs, they do not like to become servant.
Actually I am seeing. Since I have come to this part of the world in 1965, so many boys are chased by the government draft board. You see? They belong to the independent nation, and formerly they were independent. And what is this nonsense independence? You see? Simply nonsense. There is no independence. But we are thinking, "I am independent." "Oh, that nation has become independent. I shall become independent." Just like one of my students said he wanted to be anarchist.
So these false notions, isms, are going on. People are being misled. You see? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Practical experience: In my country, India, I was also a student of Gandhi. In 1920 I joined the noncooperation movement and gave up my education because Gandhi's program was to boycott the British educational institution. So most of the university students... I was also.
Fortunately, in 1922 I also met my Guru Mahārāja, and he, on my first visit, I do not know why, he told that "You should preach this Caitanya philosophy to the outside world." I replied that "We are dependent nation. Who will hear us? In the world, nobody hears any person who is coming from dependent nation, so we must have first of all independence." A young man I was at that time, and I was also misled in so many ways. But my spiritual master saved me, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja.
So the spiritual master's duty is to save the living entities who are so much embarrassed by the forest fire. That is the duty of spiritual master. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. The whole world is blazing, and just like in the blazing fire of the forest, the animals are going here and there, and some of them are dying, the whole world is like that. And how that blazing fire can be extinguished? You cannot send there this fire brigade, or you cannot get some pots of water and try to extinguish that wide fire. It is not possible. Then how to extinguish it?
Sometimes he's accepting... For example... Don't take it otherwise. Just like our national father, he renounced everything. But renounced for what? Greater enjoyment, that his countrymen will be happy. "The Britishers will go away, and we shall get independence, and we shall be enjoyer." You see? So this renouncement or that... Again, renouncement for enjoyment. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say "Renounce this whole..." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagan mithyā. "But I want to be one with that Supreme." That is for greater enjoyment. "I have failed to enjoy this world even after becoming prime minister or big man. Now I'll become God."
So this kind of philosophy will not make you happy. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). We have created dharma in two categories: one for enjoyment and one for renouncement. Both these things have to be given up.
Arrival Addresses and Talks
So this saṅkīrtana is all glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra. Śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti, liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra vimudhātmā
- kartāham...
- (BG 3.27)
We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimudhātmā, under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not. So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12).
That you cannot avoid. Falsely proud. But you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once attar. If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately. You have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. What is that? Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no...? You are under control. There is a controller; otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy.
Initiation Lectures
India was dependent. There was one poet, Bengali poet. He lamented that "Even uncivilized nations like China, Japan and Burmese..." Not Burma. Burma was also dependent. "They are independent, and only India is dependent on the Britishers." So anyway, my Guru Mahārāja, he convinced me that "Dependence, independence, they are temporary. But we are concerned with the eternal benefit of the human kind, and therefore you should take up this matter."
So I never thought that I will have to take up this matter by his order. Because it is... This incident took place in 1922, more than fifty years. So anyway, so I was officially initiated in 1933, just before three years of his passing away from this mortal world. So at the last moment also, just a fortnight before his passing away, he wrote me the same thing. I wrote him one letter and just he replied the same thing that "You should try to preach this gospel amongst the persons who are conversant in English language.
That's all. This is māyā. The history of the whole world studied, it is experience that the Roman Empire planned, the British Empire planned, the... So many empires, they flourish sometimes. All fail. The Britishers, they were, two hundred years ago, they were planning to rule over this vast land of America. George Washington declared independence; their plan failed. Similarly, in India they were planning to exploit. Now Gandhi's movement made it fail. So this is bigger plan. Similarly smaller plan also. There are many... Individually, we make so many plans that "I shall be happy in this way, in that way, in that way." So this plan-making business is māyā, because that will never be successful. Trace out the history of the whole world. Nobody has become happy. Hitler made a plan, so great a plan. You see? He was frustrated. So the sane man, intelligent man... Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that a person who is actually intelligent, wise... How a man becomes wise? After being baffled or frustrated many, many times, he can understand this is not the process.
Now, those who are fortunate, they will take it and be benefited. Our business is to distribute. Now it is up to you. Every individual soul is independent. He may accept or may not accept. That depends on him. But if he accepts, it is good for him. Otherwise, he may make his choice. Kṛṣṇa never..., God never interferes with your independence. No. He will never do that. Then what is the meaning of living being? Dull matter, it has no independence. Even it is a big mountain or big thing, it has no independence. It will stand still. But a small ant, even a microbe, it has got independence because it is living creature. So God has made you or given you little independence. That independence does not mean that you shall misuse it. You shall use it properly. And what is that proper use? To be engaged in His loving service. Just like you citizens of this German state, what you are meant for? You are meant for rendering service to the state. Similarly, the whole... This is a small state. America is a small... Or this planet is a small state.
You are meant for rendering service to the state. Similarly, the whole... This is a small state. America is a small... Or this planet is a small state. But there is a huge state which is called the cosmic manifestation. That state belongs to Kṛṣṇa, or God. So naturally, you have to render service to the supreme state, supreme will. Then it is all right. Your independence is there. So long you are rendering service to the state properly, your independence as citizen is there. But as soon as you rebel against the state, your independence is gone. Similarly, our, this conditional life is due to our rebellious condition towards God. As soon as we agree surrender and be one with Him by transcendental loving service, the whole thing becomes adjusted. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to teach people and to give them practical suggestion and help to... (end)
Wedding Ceremonies
Mother has not so much responsibility. But the father or the elder brother... Then it is said that that man, father or elder brother, will go to hell. So it is a great responsibility to take care of the girls. According to Manu-saṁhitā, Vedic principle, woman has no independence. She must be taken care of by somebody. In the early age the father is to take care, in the younger age the husband, a good husband has to take care, and when she is old, the elderly son, he has to take care. But a woman is never allowed to remain independent. That is Vedic principle of life. Actually, the woman is the weaker sex. They require protection by good father, good husband, and good child also. In my case also... There are many cases. I've left my home. I have got my wife, my elderly children, my grandchildren. So they are taking care of my wife. She has no concern. So that is the way of social system.
General Lectures
"You enjoy. You want to forget Kṛṣṇa, or God? All right. I'll give you intelligence so that you will never be able to understand what is God." Not exactly memory... Because living entity, sometimes by good association will come... So this is not Kṛṣṇa's partiality. He has given everyone a little quantity of independence. Just like these boys who have come here, that is out of independence. They are playing, but out of independence they have come. And they may sit down for some time and out of independence may go away. So this independence is there even in the ant, even in the worm and everywhere, because we are part and parcel of God and God is fully independent. But we cannot be fully independent. Just like in the state. You are belonging to an independent state, but that does not mean that you can do anything and everything. You have no such independence. There is state law and order. Similarly, as in the state we are independent citizens, but if we violate law and order, then we shall be punished.
"Those who are constantly engaged with love and faith in My service, teṣām, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi, I give them such intelligence by which gradually they make progress to come back to Me."
So actually, although we have got independence, we have got consciousness, we have got power of thinking, of understanding, but it is limited. Therefore we don't agree with one another. However I may be big philosopher, I may be very big philosopher, very logician, but as soon as another big logician, another big philosopher comes, he defeats me. That is the way. And every philosopher, every logician is trying to defeat your theory, as you are trying to defeat others' theories. This is going on. So as Śrīman Janārdana said, the knowledge which you are searching in different ways, that is impossible to come to the conclusion. Because we are searching with... However I may accept this method or that method or that method, but accepting the method means employing my senses. But the senses are imperfect. Either I accept this or that, I have to work with my senses. There are no other instruments.
"Why shall we..." Everywhere, the same thing is, "Why shall I surrender?" But we have to surrender. That is our constitutional position. If I don't surrender to some particular person or particular government or particular community or society or something, but ultimately I am surrendered. I am surrendered to the laws of nature. There is no independence. I have to surrender. When there is call of the cruel hands of death, immediately I have to surrender. So many things. So we should understand... This is brahma-jijñāsā, that "Why there is the surrendering process?" If I don't like to surrender, then I am forced to surrender. In the state also, if I don't mean to abide by the laws of the state, the state obliges me to surrender by police force, by military force, by so many things. Similarly, I don't want to die, but death forces me to surrender. I don't want to become old man, but nature forces me to become old. I don't want any disease, but nature forces me to accept some sort of disease. So this surrendering process is there.
The Manu-saṁhitā, the law of Vedas, Manu, the master of the humankind, Manu... Manu is the father of the mankind. So he has got his lawbook. That Manu-saṁhitā lawbook is still followed in India so far as the Hindus are concerned. So in that book Manu-saṁhitā, it is stated, na striyaṁ svatantram arhati. He gives the law that woman should not be given independence. Then? What should be the life? The life should be so long she's not married, she must live under the guidance, dependent on the parents. And as soon as she is married, she should live dependent on her husband. And when the husband is gone out... Because according to Hindu system, the husband does not remain at home for all the days, till death. No. When children are grown up, he gives up wife and children and becomes a sannyāsī, just like I have become. I have my children, I have my grandsons, I have my wife still exist... But I have given up all connection. So how my wife is being maintained? Oh, she has got grown-up children.
So much obligation. Then they are free. So dependence, I am speaking on the dependence. So dependence is not bad; surrender is not bad. I have seen practically that woman surrendering to the husband... Still there are so many women in India, they are so happy and their life is so glorious. So we have to learn how things are to be done. Independence, artificial independence is no good always. Practically, we have no independence. I may think of independence, but practically I have no independence. I am servant of my senses. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśa. We are all serving the senses. So where is my independence? I may declare independence from my father, from my state, from my country, from my community, but I am servant of my senses. So where is my independence? So we should know our constitutional position, that in all circumstances we are dependent. Therefore the best method of my perfection of life is to become dependent on God, Kṛṣṇa. That is the solution of all problems.
So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not very difficult either to understand or to execute. Simply we shall be willing to do this. That's all. That willing is in your hand. If you like, you can accept it. Because you have got little independence to accept something or reject something. That independence you have got. And by rejecting something good, we are in distress, and accepting something good, we are happy. So this acceptance and rejection is in your hand. So here is the offering, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by great authorities, by Lord Kṛṣṇa, by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and we are humble servants only. We are simply distributing. We have not manufactured a new type of religious sect or method of philosophy. No. It is very, very old system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply we are trying to distribute in a process which can be accepted by the people in general. So our request to you all who are present here or who are not present here, that you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and if you do not understand immediately, if you kindly associate with us, put your questions, try to understand... We don't say that you blindly accept it.
Therefore I am not independent to move my hand. So upadraṣṭā anumantā. We cannot do anything without being sanctioned by the Supreme Lord. There is an English word, that not even a grass moves without the sanction of the Lord. So that is a fact. So how one is doing nice thing and how one is doing evil things if He is the order giver? That is our independence. We can take sanction from the Lord. If we want to do something evil, I cannot do it without the sanction of the Supreme. Or even if I do something very nice, that also I cannot do without the sanction. So how the Lord gives such sanction? The sanction is like this: just like a child is crying to get something from the parent, and the parent, being disgusted, gives him something, "All right. Take it." Such kind of sanction. When we do something evil, the sanction is from the Lord, but it is not willing sanction. Against the will of the Lord. And when you do something in cooperation with the Lord, that is called bhakti. We are doing everything... In the material world we are doing everything, all nonsense for sense gratification.
So this opportunity is offered. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no tax. There is no loss. But everything is gained. Try it. At least, make an experiment for week or for fortnight and see. It is not difficult. Simply we must be willing. That's all. Because every one of us are independent. Not fully, little. So we can use our independence, we can misuse our independence. So here is the offering. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now it is your choice. If you can take, it is good. If you don't take, that is your good will.(?) Is there any difficulty to accept our formula? I ask all of you, is there any difficulty? I am asking this. You have asked so many questions of me. Is there any difficulty to accept this formula?
We are trying our best. That's all." Similarly, when a person is drowning in the water, if you send a good boat to save him, that is also not guaranteed. In this way, if we study that we are completely dependent on something else... Our process of making ourself independent... We may manufacture so many things for our independence, but śāstra says, unless there is protection from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, these methods and processes will not save us. Tāvat tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If Kṛṣṇa does not like, does (sic:) not wish that "These children will suffer in spite of good parents," so that suffering nobody can check. "This man must drown in spite of very nice good boat and ship"—nobody can check. "This man must die in spite of good physician and medicine"—he must die. Therefore our first relief, guaranteed relief, is this shelter of Kṛṣṇa. If you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, even there is some deficiencies in the matter of protecting us, Kṛṣṇa will save. Therefore we should depend on Kṛṣṇa.
Our sufferings are due to our sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa gives guarantee that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: "I shall save you from all kinds of sinful reaction."
So śaraṇāgati, surrender to Kṛṣṇa, is our only business. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to teach people to, not to declare independence, which is not possible, nor to try to make this world happy without Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is our propaganda. Whatever you do, you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, or God. "Kṛṣṇa" is the most explicit term for God. God may have many names. Kṛṣṇa is the perfect name. God has no name; some philosophers say like that. No name means that His name is understood by His different action. Just like Kṛṣṇa is sometimes called Yaśodā-nandana. Because He has accepted mother Yaśodā, to become her son, therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Yaśodā-nandana. Kṛṣṇa's name is Pārtha-sārathi. Why?
The finger's name is "finger," but it is separated; it is no longer used for the whole body. Similarly, the conditioned souls, we... We have come to this material world being conditioned by the laws of material nature; therefore our so-called independence is bogus. There is no independence. We are completely under the grip of material nature, so therefore we are separated. When we are again joined with Kṛṣṇa, then we are one with Kṛṣṇa. Just like this finger is one with this body; although it is called finger, but it is the same. The importance of the finger is as good as the whole body. Similarly, when we shall join again with Kṛṣṇa, then we become as good as Kṛṣṇa, advaya-jñāna, absolute. Just yesterday, day before yesterday, I was explaining, aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti (Bs. 5.32). Every part, every limb of Kṛṣṇa has got the potency of acting like other limb. We can only see with our eyes, but Kṛṣṇa can eat also with His eyes. Therefore absolute.
Plain philosophy. If you are God, then you must know what is God. God is never dependent. That is the definition given in Vedānta-sūtra: svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means fully independent. That is one of the quality of God. Janmādyasya yataḥ 'nvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means fully independent and fully conscious. So your consciousness is not full. Your independence is not full. That you cannot have. Now you belong to a independent country, but you are not fully independent. As soon as the state laws want you for some particular purpose, in spite of your unwillingness, you have to act. That means you are not fully independent, even in the state relationship. And how you are fully independent in God's relationship? So your claim that "I am God" is not fullfilled there, because God is independent. You are not independent. How you can claim that you are God? Can you answer this question? Because in your school it is taught that "I am God." I say God is fully independent. Are you fully independent? Then how can you claim you are God?
That's your independence. If you like you can take it. If you don't like, you don't take it. There are so many things. If you like, you take it; if you don't like, you don't take it. There is no enforcement. Every individual soul has got little independence. Not full independence. That can be used properly; that can be misused also. That depends on me. I am the master. So similarly... Just like the government. The government does not force anybody to go to the criminal department, neither government forces anybody to come to the university department. It is your individual liberty. You become criminal or a high standard scholar. (break) ...has to make his choice. He has got the freedom. He may be Kṛṣṇa conscious or he may be material conscious. If he's material conscious, he'll never be happy. If he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll be always happy. Now it is up to you whether to accept this or that.
Then you can find out the... It is not natural. Natural means up to the animal life it is natural. Then come to the human form of life. Then it is discretion. As you like, you make your choice. If you like Kṛṣṇa, you can go to Kṛṣṇa. If you like something else, you can go there. That is your discretion. Everyone has got independence, little independence. Kṛṣṇa says at the end of Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "Just you surrender unto Me, giving up everything." If it is natural, then why He should say, "You should do this"? It is not natural. One has to learn it. Therefore he requires a spiritual master like Kṛṣṇa or His representative. But he has got the potency to accept it. And because he has got little independence, he can reject it. So it is not natural evolution. You have to accept the principle as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why it is said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7)? If it is actually evolutionary, then why there is dharmasya glānir?
Yes. He accepted Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa's path, surrender. Kṛṣṇa wanted that "You must fight." So in the beginning he did not like to fight, but when he surrendered... Kṛṣṇa asked him, "My dear Arjuna, I have spoken to you everything. Now what you are going to do?" Now here also Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "What you are going to do?" Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "Now whatever you like, you do." He never interferes. And what Arjuna said? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "Oh, I shall do what You are saying. Yes." (laughter) This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Yes. He changed his decision and he wanted to do as Kṛṣṇa desired. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He remained the same military man, but he changed his consciousness. He perfected. Arjuna, after learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness or teachings of Bhagavad-gītā, he did not go away from the battlefield, but he sternly fought the fight because he knew that "Kṛṣṇa wants it. All right." Kariṣye vacanam. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
There is already the United Nations. In New York, they have constructed a big organization, establishment, United Nations. But actually, when we pass through that road—I think it is First Avenue—instead of being united, the flags of the nations are increasing. They are becoming disunited. Just like in India, our independence movement was started by Mahatma Gandhijī for uniting all the different section of the people, but actually, the result was that instead of being united, India was partitioned. And the partition has become so poisonous that formerly there was only sporadic Hindu-Muslim riots in some place; now there is organized fighting between Pakistan and Hindustan. So although the tendency is to unite, but in fact, it is not being united; they are becoming disunited more and more—not only the Hindus and Muslims. Now in India, there are many provincial questions. Just like in Andhra the fight is going on for separation.
So that determination means utsāhā, "I must." That is necessary. Not that "When Kṛṣṇa is merciful, then I shall do." Kṛṣṇa is already merciful. But if we do not take it, then what Kṛṣṇa will do? Kṛṣṇa does not touch on your little individuality or little independence. So therefore we have... Just like when we earn money, we are very enthusiastic, similarly, if we want Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we want to earn that position, go back to home, back to Godhead, we must be very much enthusiastic, utsāhān. And dhairyāt. Dhairyāt means patience. "Oh, I am executing Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the rules and regulations. Still, I am not yet perfect?" So don't be impatient. Be patient. The example is that any woman desires a child. So when she is married, it is supposed that she will get a child. But if she wants immediately child after being married, that is not possible. She must be patient, then in due course she will be pregnant and there will be child.
Our endeavor, our energy, should be used solely and wholly for understanding what is Bhāgavata-dharma, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for anything else. It may be very revolutionary, but this is a fact. You cannot gain anything more than what you are destined, suffering and enjoyment. Tasyaiva. But you can try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That independence has been given to you. You can make your choice. Just like Kṛṣṇa asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "My dear Arjuna, now I have given you instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Now whatever you like you can do." That independence is given to us. We may accept Kṛṣṇa or we may reject Kṛṣṇa. That independence is there. But actually our business should be to accept Kṛṣṇa, not reject Kṛṣṇa. That will make us happy.
Why? Because we are parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. That is also explained here-abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means fully independent. The Absolute Truth, the Supreme Person, is fully independent. Not only conscious, abhijñaḥ, but He is independent. But we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; therefore the quality of independence of Kṛṣṇa is there, but in minute quantity. Our independence and Kṛṣṇa's independence is not the same. Just like here is the Arabian Sea. You take a drop of water from the Arabian Sea, you taste it, you'll find it is salty. The salt is there in a drop of the Arabian Sea water, and salt is there in the Arabian Sea. But the quantity of salt in the whole Arabian Sea and the quantity of salt in the drop of water, they are different. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, all the qualities of Kṛṣṇa, they are also present within us in minute quantity. And because it is in minute quantity, sometimes it becomes lost.
I shall help you how to get rid of the resultant action of your sinful life." So to approach God, either you become sinless by your own efforts or you simply surrender unto God, and He will help you to become sinless. Whichever you like. He is giving full freedom. He is asking that you surrender. He is not forcing. God can force you—He is all-powerful—but He doesn't interfere with your independence. Because we are part and parcel of God—God is fully independent—so we have got also little particle of independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, disobey the words of God, we become sinful.
So Kṛṣṇa is very kind: "All right, you become tree. What can I do?" Kṛṣṇa is always ready to give you all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your choice whether you are going to dance with Kṛṣṇa or you want to become naked tree standing for ten thousands of years. That is your choice. A living entity has got this independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru: (BG 18.63) "I have spoken to you about things as they are. Now it is up to you to make your choice. Whatever you like, you can do." So Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante... (BG 4.11). If you want from Kṛṣṇa that you want to become a tree, so it is not very difficult for Kṛṣṇa to make you a tree. He's all-powerful. He can do that. But if you want, "Kṛṣṇa, I want to be with You personally," that also Kṛṣṇa can give you. So now make your choice. This is the human form of life. The animal cannot. The śāstras, the messages are not for the animals; it is for the human being. Therefore don't spoil your life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
So everyone is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like father and son is always related. That relation cannot be broken (child crying, taken out) at any stage, but sometimes it happens that the son, out of his own independence, he goes out of his home and forgets the affectionate relationship with father. In your country, it is not very extraordinary thing. So many sons go out of father's affectionate home. That is very ordinary experience. So everyone has got independence. Similarly, we are all sons of God, but we are, at the same time, independent. Not fully independent, but independent. We have got the tendency of having independence because God is fully independent, and we are born of God; therefore, we have got the quality of independence. Although we cannot be absolutely independent as God, but the tendency is there that "I shall become independent." So the living entities, we—we are part and parcel of God—when we want to live independently of God, that is our conditional stage. Conditional stage means we accept a body, material body, which is conditioned in so many ways.
In India it is very essential, and the father's name or the title is the last name of everyone. So when we forget the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, and we want to live independently... Independently means if we want to enjoy life according to my whims. That is called so-called independence. But by such independence, we are never happy, so we transmigrate for this so-called illusory happiness from one body to another. Because a particular body has got a particular facility of happiness. Just like every one of us, we want to fly in the sky. But because we are human beings, we have no wings, we cannot fly. But the birds, although they are animals, lower animals, they can easily fly. In this way, if you make analytical study, every particular body has got a particular type of facility, while others haven't got. But we want all facilities of life. That is our inclination. Just like modern scientists, they're trying to go to other planets but they're conditioned, they cannot go. We can see.
Even yogis, yogis, haṭha-yogīs, those who have practiced, they can also go from anywhere to anyplace. The yogis, they sit down in one place and immediately transferred in another place. They take a dip in some river nearby here and they can get up in some river in India. They dip here and they rise there. These are yogic powers.
So we have got immense independence, but we are now conditioned by this body. Therefore in the human form of life it is an opportunity to get back our original independence. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Freedom. When we have got our spiritual body, without being covered by this material body... We have got our spiritual body within this material body. Very small. That is my real identification. Now I'm covered by two kinds of material bodies. One is called subtle body and the other is called gross body. The subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego, false ego, and the gross body is made of earth, water, fire, air and ether mixed together, this body.
And bhāgavata-dharma means that we have to transcend both the gross and subtle body; come to the spiritual body. It is very scientific. And as soon as we come to the spiritual body, mukta saṅga, being freed from the gross and subtle body, we come to our real body, spiritual body, then actually we feel happiness and independence.
So this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest benediction for the human society because it is trying to bring the human being to the platform of spiritual body—transcending the gross and subtle material body. That is the highest perfection. Human life is meant for coming to that platform, the spiritual platform, transcending the gross and material bodily concept of life. That is possible. It is made easy in this age. This age called Kali, it is not very good time. Simply disagreement, fighting, quarreling, misunderstanding. This age is full of that, all these happenings. Therefore to come to the spiritual platform is very difficult in this age. Formerly, it was not so difficult.
There is already the United Nations. In New York they have constructed a big organization, establishment, United Nations, but actually, when we pass through that road—I think it is First Avenue—instead of being united, the flags of the nations are increasing. They are becoming disunited. Just like in India our independence movement was started by Mahatma Gandhiji for uniting all the different section of the people. But actually, the result was that instead of being united, India was partitioned. And the partition has become so poisonous that formerly there was only sporadic Hindu-Muslim riots in some place; now there is organized fighting between Pakistan and Hindustan. So although the tendency is to unite, but in fact it is not being united. They are becoming disunited more and more. Not only the Hindus and Muslim. Now in India there are many provincial questions. Just like in Andhra the fight is going on for separation. Punjab is already separated. So actually we are not being united.
Kṛṣṇa is canvassing you that "You try to understand Me. Come back." But you do not want it. So how Kṛṣṇa can save you? You have got the independence. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "Now I (have) explained to you everything. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Now, whatever you like, you do." So we have got that little independence because we are part and parcel of God. God has got supreme independence and we, being part and parcel... Just like you are all big businessmen. You have got supreme independence in business. Similarly, your sons, they have got also some independence, although subjected. Similarly, we, being part and parcel of God, sons of God, we have got little independence. If we misuse that independence, then we become subjected to all these tribulations. But if we do not misuse... As Kṛṣṇa says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So it is up to you. If you want to remain in this world of duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), you can do so. But if you want to get out of it, you can do so. That is up to you. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault. Kṛṣṇa has given you liberty, little independence, whatever. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). He's given you chance. You want to do this—"All right, do it." You want to do this? "Do this." He's giving you chance. There is a verse, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15).
You cannot say, "No, I'll not obey the orders of the state." That is not possible. If you voluntarily do not abide by the orders of the state, then you will be forced to abide by the state in the prison house. Similarly, those who have declared independence, so-called independence—nobody can be independent—that "I do not believe in God, I do not want any type of religion or serving God," such persons will be under the guidance or under the influence or power of the material nature, māyā. Māyā-mohita. Tribhir guṇa-māyāir bhāvair. We are now illusioned by the influence of māyā, material energy, in three ways: by goodness, by passion, and by ignorance. But instead of serving God, we are now serving māyā. And so long we shall be going on serving māyā, or serving in the prison house, we cannot be happy.
Prabhupāda: You may not like, sir, but if you do not follow you will be punished. (boos and yells) Anyway, if you do not follow the codes and laws of the state or God, then certainly you will be punished. (yelling) You may declare independence, but there is no, I mean, the possibility of such independence. That requires knowledge. (someone yelling)
Jyotirmayī: He is saying that there are some people who would like to ask some questions.
Prabhupāda: So immediately if you want to put some questions, then I can stop. Or if you want me to go on speaking I will speak. As you like. (more yelling) We can stop speaking?
Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.
So anyway, Arjuna, when he heard Bhagavad-gītā very minutely, he was asked by Kṛṣṇa, "Now I have explained to you the Bhagavad-gītā, the knowledge, the spiritual knowledge. Now whatever you like, you can do." Yathecchasi tathā kuru: (BG 18.63) "Whatever you like... Now it is up to you. If you don't fight, that you can decide. I have no objection because you have little independence. But My advice is that you should fight. Now I ask you what you are going to do." So Arjuna replied that, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusudana, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "Now I shall do it." This is Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti, that we have to act according to the advice of the Supreme Lord. That is bhakti. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170).
There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there...
The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8), that "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy.
They are called marginal. Jīva-śakti. And that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home back to Godhead.
So within human society... This is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram. They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other.
Departure Talks
We left our home and father, and we are in this fallen material world, and we are suffering too much. It is exactly like a very rich man's son leaves home for independence and wanders all over the world, unnecessarily taking trouble. A rich man's son has nothing to do. His father's property is sufficient for his comfortable life. Still, as we have got examples now in the Western countries, many rich man's son becomes hippie, leaves home and unnecessarily takes trouble. Our position, our needs, we all living entities who are within this material world, is exactly like that. We have voluntarily come into this material world for sense enjoyment, and in sense enjoyment we have forgotten our supreme father, God. The material nature's duty is to give us simply miserable condition of life.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: Every individual soul is awarded a little portion of independence, because every individual soul is part and parcel of God, so he has got the quality of independence, in minute quantity. That is individuality.
Śyāmasundara: Just like, for instance, say, this particulate substance, he would say that there is a force or activity which constitutes the essence of this substance, and that is the monad of this substance. He is attributing it to everything, matter.
Prabhupāda: So we take the atom. Atom is the smallest. So we say within the atom the force is Kṛṣṇa. He is simply suggesting there is some enforcing power. We are giving directly that that is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, but within the hydrogen atom, there is Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is combining. Not this hydrogen atom as matter is combining, but because Kṛṣṇa is within that hydrogen atom existing. He knows that by combination this thing will come about, that will come out, that will come out...
Śyāmasundara: But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Śyāmasundara: Has no independence?
Prabhupāda: No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad-gītā it says that anumantā, individual soul, wants to do something and Kṛṣṇa gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes.
Śyāmasundara: So we have no free will?
Prabhupāda: No. Without sanction of Kṛṣṇa we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause.
Śyāmasundara: But I thought you had been saying that we have a little independence.
Prabhupāda: That independence that Kṛṣṇa wants me to do something but I want to deny it. But unless Kṛṣṇa sanctions, you cannot do that also.
Śyāmasundara: What I'm trying to get at is that if we desire something and we take a body because of that desire, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become part of water and be given that body? Does it have the independence to desire something and take a body accordingly? The hydrogen molecule, does it have a life?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why don't you take to the central monad?
Śyāmasundara: He says that God is the supreme monad, or pure activity.
Prabhupāda: I was speaking like that. If God desires, then the other monads have no independence. The same example as I told you: the stone is falling down in the water, and the monads of the water giving way. It is falling down, but if God desires, the water will not give way, it will float. If God is the ultimate monad, that is possible. Therefore there is no reason for disbelieving that when Rāmacandra threw so many stones on the water of the sea, it began to float. You cannot disbelieve. If Rāmacandra is God and He is the ultimate cause, He can check. Whatever He wills will come into effect.
Śyāmasundara: But the point of whether the monad of the rock causes the monads of the water to part.
Prabhupāda: But where is the conquest of nature? Now if there is a mistake of two degrees, you have to go round forever. What is the independence? Vikathante. The exact word used in this connection in the Bhāgavata, that these people talks all nonsense, vikatha. Under the influence of illusory energy they have become mad, and they are talking all nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: I didn't know we were going to have a class today, but for the next class I wanted to read that article about heredity, genetics, how they think that they might be able to reproduce life in the future.
Prabhupāda: Again "in future."
Prabhupāda: Reason explain... He cannot explain because he does not know. The soul is a living force, and it has got little independence. So the supreme living force is God, and he is part and parcel of God, exactly like the spark of the whole fire. So this song, he has finished, bhuliya tomāre saṁsāre. So as soon as the soul receives his independence from (indistinct) become God Himself or wants to become enjoyer of the material nature, he becomes powerless, and he is subjected to the influence (indistinct) by the physical elements, and because he forgets his real identity, he thinks that he is body. Just like Darwin's theory. He is not this body. It is simply, circumstantially, a covering, a dress, and the living soul is different from the physical body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The so-called scientists, they do not know the real, basic principle; therefore they are misled. Actually the soul, the living force, because they are getting independence and has to, wants to enjoy the material world, which he cannot do, but falsely, after life (indistinct), he is running after (indistinct) material nature, and he is becoming more and more (indistinct). That is his (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: When science tries to investigate something, they assume that what they are investigating is static, that it is a constant, that it is not changing, that it's static, mechanical. But the life force, he says, is dynamic; it's always changing, unpredictable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. It is not a dead stone. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. We are all living force, sitting here, we may sit down or we may go away. That nobody can check. Similarly, we are dynamic forces, and God does not interfere with our dynamic force. He allows us, "Do whatever you like." Because if He interferes with our independence, then we are no longer living entities; we become dead stones. So God does not interfere. He gives us full freedom. But at the same time He comes down and instructs us, "But why you are engaged in this foolish activity? Please come to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, (indistinct)."
Śyāmasundara: So if he says that the physical world...
Līlāvatī: Does that mean that the spiritual body changes, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Not spiritual body, material body. Spiritual body cannot be changed.
Śyāmasundara: No. We're not talking about bodies, we're talking about the life force.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing as permanent. You can misuse your independence at any time.
Śyāmasundara: And come back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Śyāmasundara: His conception of the soul, which he calls elan vital in French language, means the vital impulse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital..., this is living force, vital force. (indistinct), it is never addressed. God has (indistinct) for the mind, for the intelligence, for the body, God has (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Is it (indistinct) in the same quantity in every body, in every living body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Same quantity. The same measurement: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Prabhupāda: He must be Kṛṣṇa's representative, one who knows Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Atreya Ṛṣi: No one else.
Prabhupāda: No. If he does not know Kṛṣṇa, how he can explain?
Devotee: That independence, if he exercises that independence from now on, forever, Kṛṣṇa knows exactly how that independence is going to be used forever?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa?
Devotee: Well, the living entity has independence: now he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned, then he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you liberation. Now you misuse your liberation, you become entrapped.
Prabhupāda: No. How Kṛṣṇa can know? You can change your mind. So Kṛṣṇa says "Surrender unto Me." If you don't surrender, then what Kṛṣṇa can do? That much independence is there.
Śyāmasundara: So even God cannot predict?
Prabhupāda: What is the use of prediction? Prediction is so much, that he will be kicked, kicked, kicked, and some day he will come.
Devotee: But the independence...
Prabhupāda: Independence is there. Independence is always there. When he is being kicked, there is also independence.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of permanent. Because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why one man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently he... He can come back again.
Śyāmasundara: There's no guarantee.
Atreya Ṛṣi: This concept of prediction, Prabhupāda. You just said it's the duty of the material (indistinct) because he's (indistinct) material. Because he's not sure and...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) by experience (indistinct). Just like you can predict that four months after, there will be winter season. This prediction is like that. You have got experience that last year there was winter season, and again four months after there will be winter season. We call this prediction of experience, that's all.
Atreya Ṛṣi: In the spiritual world everything is permanent.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. That is the general law. But if he likes, he can come back. Because otherwise, what is the meaning of independence? Just like one should become fit in the prison house, naturally he should not go again. But (indistinct) running again kicking, that's all.
Līlāvatī: So those eternally liberated souls in the spiritual sky will never come here because they choose not to. It's not that... (indistinct) they never choose to come here.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They never choose. They are very experienced. (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: Bergson says that this quality of the soul can only be perceived by man's intuition, not by his senses, but by his intuition.
Prabhupāda: It is no search. We are individual, always. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Second Chapter, that we are individual now, we are individual..., were in the past, and we shall continue to remain individual in future. So the individuality is always there, but the living entity, we, we are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Our intelligence is very meager, is very small, so, so therefore we forget what is our real constitutional position. So to bring to our original constitutional position the..., Kṛṣṇa and His instructions are there. The individuality is always, past, present and future, but when we forget Kṛṣṇa, make our own plan, then we suffer, and when we utilize our individuality properly, little independence, and follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction as His servant, then our life is perfect. (break)
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Bergson.
Prabhupāda: This method of studying the cause, so we take the ultimate cause of everything, with His full independence. The ultimate cause can do anything and everything beyond our calculation. There is cause, but the cause is so powerful that it is beyond our calculation how it is being done. Our knowledge is limited; therefore our calculation may be, may be or almost always, is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, he observes if a ball being hit by a bat, it always moves. So he concludes that whenever there is circumstance of a bat hitting a ball, that the ball will always move.
Prabhupāda: No. God, evil is created by God undoubtedly, but the, it was necessary on account of the human being as, misuse of his free will. God gives him good direction but when he is disobedient, then naturally the evil power is there to punish him. Therefore the evil is not created by God but still it is created. It is necessary. Just like the government constructs the prison house. So this prison house creation is not the government's intention. Government wants that university is sufficient, people may be educated and highly enlightened, but because some, not all, misuses the independence, little independence, he creates evil circumstances, and he is compulsorily put into the prison house. Similarly, we suffer on account of our own evil activities but God, being Supreme, He punishes us for our evil activities. For God there isn't... When we are under the protection of God, there is nothing evil, only good thing. There is no evil. So God does not create evil but man's evil activities obliges God to create an evil situation.
Hayagrīva: To create what?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu... In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, it is said that varṇāśrama-dharma. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Any man who executes this varṇāśrama-dharma, he satisfies Viṣṇu. The varṇāśrama-dharma is there, and the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas, and the śūdras. So according as they are prescribed, how the brāhmaṇas should live, how the kṣatriyas should live, how the..., then there is no trouble. The whole problem is solved. But they have killed the varṇāśrama-dharma. They are now all śūdras. The śūdras, how they can make solutions? Śūdras means nonintelligent persons. So what they can do? They are running on democratic government voted by the śūdras. So what these rascal śūdras will do? They require... Śūdras are meant for serving the higher sections—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And if the śūdras are given government... Just like we are seeing, in Africa they have been given independence, but they have not improved.
Prabhupāda: But that is lacking in the present society, because these rascals, they are proud of their nationals but they are denying this same national life to the animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they are rascals. Why the animals should be denied their national right? They are born in the same country. They have a right to live at the cost of God. Why we are interfering with their independence, given right? Therefore they are rascals. Their so-called social, moral, philosophical, political, they are all rascaldom. Therefore our decision is, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā: (SB 5.18.12) anyone who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualities. In the other direction, we will find so many defects with his so-called moral and social position.
Śyāmasundara: He says that God... He defines God as the active relation between the ideal and the actual.
Prabhupāda: That will never happen. The so-called unity of man by the imaginative process of so-called intelligent philosopher, it has never become possible, neither it will become possible, because every man has got little independence. So unless they are controlled, they will assert their independence, and by this imaginative process they cannot be united. That is another insanity. History has never proved this in the past, and it is not going on in the present, so naturally in the future it will not be possible. That is sane man's conclusion.
Hayagrīva: You..., when you discussed Dewey with Śyāmasundara Prabhu, you said that Dewey wants to make God his scapegoat—why does he mention the word God, and he uses the word God to serve his own ends. His philosophic conception is the working union of the ideal and the actual. This is rather vague, but this is his definition of God: Man striving for perfection.
Prabhupāda: Social, yes. Just like Cāṇakya says. He is an experienced moralist, his ethical laws. He says, (indistinct), if you indulge in freedom, (indistinct) and if you restrict and restrain, that is very, very (indistinct). Therefore one should take care of his disciple and serve by chastising them, not giving them independence.
Śyāmasundara: Freud would say that this system of repression, by saying "Don't do this," is harmful to the child.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) repression of course—his idea of repression is different. Our idea is different. Our repression is you must rise early in the morning, you must attend maṅgala ārati.
Śyāmasundara: It's with knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So mathematical calculations, if it is perfect, then it is all right. Just like a child is born: father plus mother equal to child. So this is all right. But if one says that without father, through mother only, child, then how this is mathematical calculation? Whenever there is a child, it is to be understood that there is father and mother. If somebody says "No. Without father, simply mother gives birth to a child," then what kind of calculation is this? Similarly, these so-called philosophers, they simply think the nature is all-in-all, but that's not the fact. Nature is prakṛti, just like mother. There must be father. But they do not believe in father. So what kind of mathematical calculation? That is not mathematical calculation; that is concoction. Mathematical calculation—"Two plus two equal to four"—is a fact everywhere. Either you go to Europe or America or anywhere you go, that mathematical calculation—"Two plus two equal to four"—it can be understood. Similarly, it is very easy to understand that without father, mother cannot give birth to a child. Similarly, this nature, without the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, she cannot give any birth. But these modern philosophers, scientists, they are struck with wonder simply by observing the natural activities. So Kṛṣṇa says that "Background of these natural activities is I." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My supervision." Just like prakṛti, woman, the girl, naturally, when she is young, her father's direction, er, when she is child. When she is young, husband's direction. When she is old, elderly children's, son's, direction. In India at least you'll find, woman has no independence.
Prabhupāda: The defect is that these programs are being forwarded by some rascal. Therefore they are defective. If they would have been forwarded by perfect man, then you would have actual (indistinct). Now one rascal is forwarding some program, another rascal next time (indistinct) this is true. So this is going on in Western world. Because according to Bhāgavata we belong to the category of dogs, hogs, camels. So what is the benefit of a dog's program and (indistinct) by camel's program. If they are on the, basically there is nothing but dogs, hogs, camels and asses, then suppose dog has given some program and the camel says, "No. This program is better than this one." And the ass comes, he introduces another program, "This program is better than this program." So either of these programs, because they are made by dogs, hogs, asses and camels, they cannot be perfect. Take a program from a real human being. Then it is perfect. The defect is there. One philosopher is proposing something, another philosopher is proposing something... That is (indistinct) especially in the Western countries, they are doing so independence (?). But the Vedic civilization there is no independence. They must follow the Vedic injunction. As I have said several times, the Vedas says that the stool of cow is completely pure.
Prabhupāda: They would be punished, but they don't care for punishment. Just like it says in the lawbook that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, the thief. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then what can you do? Punishment is already there.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, he gives an example that, let's say that in an institution there is lunch served for one hour between twelve and one, and at one o'clock the door is closed and locked, sharply. So automatically everyone who wants to come must come before one o'clock, otherwise they will be punished.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. If anyone prefers to starve, they may not come. That law will be not be obligatory to a person who prefers to starve.
Prabhupāda: No, even the young men, in Russia I have seen, they are after also God. They are unhappy because they are not allowed to go out of Russia. They want to see the world, but they are not allowed. Their independence is suppressed. So they are not happy.
Hayagrīva: That's the end of...
Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)
Śyāmasundara: He believes that whatever is produced, all should be given. Everything.
Prabhupāda: Why all should be given? That means he's killed my independence.
Śyāmasundara: There should be no proprietorship. There should be no private property.
Prabhupāda: No. Proprietor should be allotted proprietor, that I belong... You give me... The king or the government gives me this land. So that is my proprietorship. Just like I have taken this house. So it is higher proprietorship. I do not allow anybody to come here. That is trespassing.
Śyāmasundara: Even the farms in China are collective. The people work together, cooperate to produce such and such products. They give the whole product to the state. In return, they receive their lodging, their cloths.
Prabhupāda: So that is our process. We say that perceptual fact is that we are controlled. Every one of us, controlled. Who can deny it? Why you are running on this fan? Because you are controlled. There is excessive heat controlling you. Therefore I am trying to counteract it. In every step you are controlled by the laws of nature. So how he thinks that he is independent? Why does he manufacture so many so-called laws of independence? In fact he is controlled. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). He is in contact with some modes of material nature, and he is controlled by them. So why does he not accept that "I am not independent, I am controlled. The basic principle is that I am controlled." Then if one is actually conversant with the laws of control, then he makes adjustment according to that. One being controlled, how he can become controller? This is phenomenon. Where one is... Let any man come and say boldly that "I am not controlled." Who is that man? Find out any man.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot compare. The analogy is mistaken. The season is matter, material changes. But the evolution is not matter. There is spirit soul. He is making his evolution. So he has got independence. He can reject and accept. Just like yesterday we were talking... (plane overhead) ...Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up everything, just surrender unto Me," but because you are living entity, you can reject this proposal or accept this proposal. Not that blindly you have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. No. That is not possible. The proposal is there, but it is up to you to surrender or not to surrender. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says that "You do it." If it is automatically, then there was no need of Kṛṣṇa's saying, "Do it." It would have come automatically to the surrendering point. Not like that. They are mistaken in that. The living entity has got the right to accept or reject. So if he takes, he makes his progress, accepting the right path, then he comes to the goal. But if he rejects, he'll not reach the goal (?). That depends on him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Toward that point, nature is giving chance, but because you are living entity, you have got independence, you may not take the chance.
Śyāmasundara: Your idea is more that certain individuals will attain that point, but not the world as a whole.
Prabhupāda: No. World as a whole will... Just like we are... Kṛṣṇa is teaching that "Surrender unto Me," but who is taking Kṛṣṇa's teaching? That is independence. If Kṛṣṇa is assuring that "You just surrender unto Me, and I give you protection from all resultant action of sinful activities,"... People suffer for sinful activities. Just like we are keeping the account nicely so that when we present to the government they may not see any flaw. So we are keeping account nicely. That means we are trying to save ourself from sinful activities. And if there is discrepancies in the account, that is sinful activity. So as soon as there is discrepancy, one has to suffer. So Kṛṣṇa says... But the material world is so made that even if you do not want to act sinfully, unconsciously you will act so many things sinfully. Unconsciously.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is value. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me and all questions solved." So it has value. That we also admit. But it is up to me to accept that value or not. That independence God has given me. Otherwise, everyone would have been Kṛṣṇa conscious and surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Why they are not doing that? Even God is value, to accept that value depends on me.
Śyāmasundara: He said that God is the whole universe and that we are parts and parcels, that man is part and parcel of God.
Prabhupāda: This is not striving. By nature's way the lower animals, they come to the platform of man. Jīva-jātiṣu paryayaḥ, it is called. Paryayaḥ means one after another. There is nature's help. Up to the human being, that law works. And human being, being developed conscious, so he has got the power of discrimination. Because originally the soul is given independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "Whatever you like, you do." That is the original connection. God is the Supersoul; we are soul, under Him, subordinate. So we are called taṭastha, means marginal. Marginal means we can remain either way. Either on God's side or māyā's side. That is my choice. So when we don't want to serve God, then we are sent to the māyā, to serve māyā. Māyā means his position as servant remains the same, but he thinks "I am master." That is māyā. He is Just like a child trying to do something father does not like. But when he cries, he's given that. "All right. Do this." But "All right, do this" or "Do that," he is under the father. He is under the control of the father.
Prabhupāda: This is not striving. By nature's way the lower animals, they come to the platform of man. Jīva-jātiṣu paryayaḥ, it is called. Paryayaḥ means one after another. There is nature's help. Up to the human being, that law works. And human being, being developed conscious, so he has got the power of discrimination. Because originally the soul is given independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "Whatever you like, you do." That is the original connection. God is the Supersoul; we are soul, under Him, subordinate. So we are called taṭastha, means marginal. Marginal means we can remain either way. Either on God's side or māyā's side. That is my choice. So when we don't want to serve God, then we are sent to the māyā, to serve māyā. Māyā means his position as servant remains the same, but he thinks "I am master." That is māyā. He is Just like a child trying to do something father does not like. But when he cries, he's given that. "All right. Do this." But "All right, do this" or "Do that," he is under the father. He is under the control of the father. But when he is given such chance, "Oh, I am independent now. I am independent." So this is called māyā. He's never independent, but he thinks, "I am independent."
Prabhupāda: Just like we Indians, we have got independence. So what kind of independence? In British period there was not so much dependence. These rascal laws, that you have to go So many things. You cannot move now. In British period the Indians had independence to move all over the world by expenditure. Now we cannot go. So we have got independence, but we have become dependent in so many ways. This is called māyā. So whole world, they are thinking that "I am independent. My nation is independent." Nobody is independent. Everyone is dependent under the laws of material nature. When death comes, nobody is independent. Either American, Indian, or There is no question of independence. But when we think that "I am independent," although I am dependent in so many respects, that is māyā. That is māyā. Māyā means what he is thinking, that is not fact. That is called māyā. Mā-yā. What you are thinking, that is not a fact. So daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So he is continually serving the māyā, life after life, but still he is thinking, "I am independent." So the right intelligence is, actual independence is, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is your real independence.
Śyāmasundara: Is it not that because our real nature is perfect that we're always striving to become perfect again? Striving to reach that point again?
Prabhupāda: Yes, your nature is perfect. Perfect means you have got independence also. So you can perfectly misuse also, independence. That is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: But there is always that urge, even among the lower animals, to improve themselves, be promoted.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is being done by nature. That is evolution. Darwin has taken this idea from the Vedas, but he has no soul idea.
Śyāmasundara: But he mentions the point, what is that urge? Why do I want to improve? What is that urge that makes me want to...
Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. This ideal example: that the university comes from the government and the prison house also comes from the government, but the prison house is meant for the criminal and the university is meant for the highly learned scholar. The government spends money in both the departments to maintain it; therefore, so far government's recognition is concerned, it has to be maintained. But it is we, we make our selection whether go to the prison house or go to the university. That is, that little independence is there in every human being. We have to make our choice.
Hayagrīva: He says that perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already explained, that...
Hayagrīva: "Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. More and more degraded. That I have already explained. He begins his life as Lord Brahmā and goes down as the worm in the stool. That is his degradation. And again, by nature's way, by evolution, he comes to the human form of life. That is a chance to understand that how he has fallen. And if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then from this life he goes again back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If he fully becomes trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... And everyone has to give up this body, so a devotee will give up this body, but he is not going to accept any more material body. Immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mām eti: "He comes to Me." That is the advantage. They sometimes, foolish persons, say that "You are also going to die." Yes, you are going to die, I am also going to die, it's a fact, but a devotee's death means giving up this body and remain in his original, spiritual body. Sometimes it is said, jīvo vā maro vā.
Hayagrīva: I think the problem with all of these is that they cannot conceive of spiritual form. When they speak of form they are thinking that there must necessarily be matter involved. Aquinas believed that the Augustinian and Platonic doctrines of the complete independence of the soul from matter or the material body denied man's substantial unity. That is, man is body and soul. He is a particular type of soul in a particular type of body.
Prabhupāda: It..., it is the same argument, that when you are dressed it appears that you are not different from the dress. The coat is moving, the pants is moving, but actually it is completely different from the person who is putting on the coat and shirt.
Hayagrīva: So in other words they, he, he actually had no idea of spiritual form as such.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress.
| Page Title: | Independence (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 31 of Aug, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=105, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 105 |