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Independence (Conversations 1968 - 1973)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 27, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Because you can accept any miserable life. That is the spell of māyā. Just like this dog life. If somebody asked me, "Would you like to be a dog? I can make you," shall I agree? Why not? Because I know that's miserable life. But the dog is satisfied. By becoming a purchased slave, very much satisfied. He has no independence, always chained and always servant, eternal servant of a particular man. He can do any harmful thing by the order of the master, he's so faithful. But still, his life is miserable because he's dog. But he is satisfied. He thinks that "Oh, it is a very nice life." This is called covering power of māyā, illusion. Anyone in the most miserable condition of life he'll think, "Oh, I am very happy." Ask him, "How are you?" "Oh, very nice. Very nice." So there is no adjustment. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person should... He knows that here only adjustment is to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only... If he's materially conscious... What is the difference between materially conscious man and Kṛṣṇa conscious man?

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: This Bhagavad-gītā is read by the human society not only in India, but outside India, since a very long, long time. But unfortunately, as everything is deteriorated by the contact of material contamination, so people began to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in different ways. Therefore about five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya appeared, and he started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement under His personal guidance in Bengal. His birthplace is known as Navadvīpa. Now, He ordered every Indian to spread this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, in every village, every town. That was His order. But unfortunately, since India was under foreign subjugation, they could not spread, or they lost their own independence of culture. But everyone expected after declaration of independence by India, such things should come to the outside world. But the government did not take much care of it. So far I am concerned, I belong to Lord Caitanya's disciplic succession, and my spiritual master, who was just ninth generation from Lord Caitanya, he ordered me that "You try to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western world." Therefore in pursuance of his order, I have come here.

Talk During Prasada After Kirtana -- November 8, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no. A sannyāsī should always take in his hand. That is the system. Not in a plate. That means if you take in a plate, you'll take much. (laughter) So in hand, he cannot take much. Kara-pātrī. That is the instruction. But in this age such strict laws cannot be followed. The Bhāgavata says that when there is flat grass cushion, why should you ask for bedding? When you have got natural pillow, this hand, why you ask for a pillow? Then when there is river, so much water, why do you stock water? When there are fruits in the tree, why do you go and beg? When there is cave, why you are searching after apartment? (laughs) When the old garments are thrown in the street, then why you are searching after clothing? These are the instructions. Completely free. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadandhān (SB 2.2.5). Why should you go and flatter these monied men? That is complete independence. But those days are now gone. (laughs) It is a different age. Los Angeles, I think it is a good place. Hm? What is your...? Your problem solved?

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Prabhupada Listening to Recording of His Own Room Conversation with Students -- April 25, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: It is accepted that everyone goes. But if somehow you are stubborn to remain here, how one can help? (laughter) Just like the university is open for everyone. But somebody is stubborn to go to the prison department. So how the government can help? Government does not say that "Some selected people come to the university, and others go to the prison department." It is open for everyone, but it is the particular mentality—one is going to the university; one is going to the prison house. That is your individual independence. That is your choice. Just like so many students, they have come here. Others have not come here. So everyone has got little independence. So everyone can go to the spiritual world if he likes. But if he does not like, he will remain here. That is his choice.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is māyā. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by this false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me."

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Svayaṁbhur nāradaḥ śaṁbhuḥ kumārāḥ kapilaḥ (SB 6.3.20). Kapila, Lord Kapila, the propounder of Sāṅkhya philosophy, he is also accepted as incarnation of God, Kapila. And Manu. Manu, father of mankind, who has given the Manu-saṁhitā, lawbook. In that law it is stated, na strīyāṁ svatantratam arhati: "Woman does not deserve independence." Manu has given this. Yes. This is Manu-smṛti. So Vedic culture means to follow the regulative principle.

Allen Ginsberg: So from Manu to Keśava Kāśmīrī is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am speaking the original authorities. So this Kumāra-sampradāya, he belonged, this Keśava Kāśmīrī, Kumāra-sampradāya. Now they are known as Rāmānuja, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and Nimbārka. You have been in Vṛndāvana. You have seen the temple of Bankibihārī?

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is very natural. Just like... (knock on door) Come on. Because jīva, although parā śaktī, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Kṛṣṇa... In the spiritual world Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, and all others, they are enjoyed. Predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, "The Lord is predominator. We have to serve." When this service attitude is impaired, that "Why serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not ourself?" that is māyā. Then he falls down in the material energy. There is no scope... Just like in the government system, there is no scope of freedom. You have to act according to government state laws. So long you are agreement, then you are free. If you disagree, then you are placed within the prison house. Similarly, jīva, independent, not fully independent, but they have got. Because part and part of God, therefore that independence quality is there. So when that independence quality is misused, then his place is in the material world. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāṅchā kare. When we forget Kṛṣṇa and try to lord it over something...

Discussion with BTG Staff -- December 24, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw... How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low-grade. It is the sitting room and a naked picture has... How much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are.

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You do it—because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But He doesn't do that. He doesn't interfere with your independence. He says, "Do it." Therefore you have to try for it, not for other things. Other things, already there are. For the birds and beasts there is no problem for eating. Why your problem should be? Just like a prisoner. He has no problem for eating. The government supplies. He has only problem that he should not be criminal. That is his problem. He should try for that: "No more I shall become a criminal." That is the real activity. But he thinks... If in the prisonhouse you say, "What shall I eat?" no, eating is already there. Even you are a prisoner, the government has supplied his eating. Similarly, God has supplied everyone, cats and dogs, for eating. Why not for you?

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discussion with Indians -- January 18, 1971, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: But then He doesn't say. You say, "If you follow me." Now it is your discretion to follow Him or not to follow Him. Kṛṣṇa said this to Arjuna. That does not mean everyone of the world, like Arjuna, surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Anyone, if he says, even Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, it is not that everyone follows that. That independence you have got. But our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me," and we are imploring, we are begging persons, that "You please surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Now it is your discretion. Whether you surrender to Kṛṣṇa or Lord Śiva, that is your discretion. But our preaching method is we are trying to preach in the world, "Please surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That is our position.

Guest (3): Sir, can I speak now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Darsana -- June 28, 1971, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: So give one man from each center. It doesn't require that he is very advanced. Advancement will be done by training, by practical application in life. If you send from each center one man to India... If you can send more, that's all right. But at least one man. In India we have got many things to do. Because the business in India is important in this respect, that partly due to their subjugation by foreigners, their original culture has been killed. Just like in India, they did not know drinking tea, drinking wine, meat-eating, illicit sex. They did not know. Even fifty, a hundred years before, they did not know. These Britishers, in order to control them, very silently introduced all these things. I know in our childhood, this drinking of tea was unknown to any family. Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on.

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: So you can go. You can go. And you know Deity... (break) ...and if it is sufficiently left, then she doesn't require further. Otherwise add something. But she'll take after the husband. My mother was doing. Yes. The remnants of foodstuff left by the husband will be taken by the wife. That means if the husband does not eat, she'll not eat. So those things are now dream only. (laughs) Impossible. Just like small child, If he follows the father, catching the hand of the father, she is always safe, he is always safe. Now your so-called independence has spoiled the social life. You know he was married. Where she is now?

Kulaśekhara: Oh, she left. We haven't seen her since she left. I don't know where she is. Three years ago. When she left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, she took some drugs and...

Room Conversation with Mayor -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Other countries all they have got high respect for India as spiritual land. But we are killing, our present government and so-called leaders, killing that state. This is regrettable. They could hold this Bhārata-varṣa to the topmost summit all over the India if after independence they would have organizedly preached Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic culture. That is my mission. Now whatever you may think of Bhārata-varṣa, outside, India is known as a poor, poorest country, because our ministers go there to beg.

Guest (2): Prabhupāda, you have said that, really, what I read this morning, that if (indistinct) comes, we have to fight. Did you say to the people...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They asked me; I said.

Guest (2): That's what we want to hear now, you know.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 18, 1972, Hong Kong:

Prabhupāda: Why shall I become old?" (break) I accept a new opportunities to preach it from everything. That is my philosophy. And it has become successful. If I had taken this position from India... I was trying. In India also, I tried. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are very respectable man, and people like you. You preach Bhagavad-gītā. You stand with your photograph. There is Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you preach Bhagavad-gītā? Now politics is finished. You have got independence." But this politics is so sweet to these politicians, that until he was killed, he could not give up politics, until he was killed. He was advocating non-violence, but he was forced to die by violence. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. He was forced to accept partition of India. He was so much baffled, but still, he would not give up politics until he was killed. On the day of his death, in the morning, because he had so many letters, so many secretaries, so he said, "I am very much useless. I want to die." He said like that. And actually, in the evening he was killed. He was thinking that "My next solace is only death," because he could understand, "I have created simply problems. No problem I have solved. I have simply created problem." He was a sane man. He could understand it.

Room Conversation -- July 4, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prisonhouse naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes again criminal, for farther (indistinct). Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prisonhouse. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer(?). But our destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa when we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we do not do, but Kṛṣṇa will do. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: (BG 18.66) "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Kṛṣṇa. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Kṛṣṇa.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa prema, love of Kṛṣṇa, is within everyone. That love is being expressed in so many ways. Actually that is love for Kṛṣṇa. So when one invokes that love in proper condition, then he loves Kṛṣṇa and loves everyone. Here the so-called love is for some purpose. Just like we are... I have come to this country. My purpose is not to get some money from them. Because I think, "My Guru Mahārāja ordered that 'You go to the Western countries,' " so I have come to the Western countries to give them Kṛṣṇa. And because they, everyone has Kṛṣṇa prema, they are accepting it. You must be favorable. But if you don't accept, it is impossible to give you. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You do." Kṛṣṇa can force him but He is not forcing. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, "Whatever..." Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "Whatever you like, you can do." He does not force anyone because the living entity, part and parcel of God, he has got independence. So Kṛṣṇa does not touch the independence of the living entity. He advises, "You do this. If you do this, then you will be saved." But if you do not do this, then Kṛṣṇa is not responsible. You are responsible.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: You travel in this cycle of birth and death and wander in different species of life, different planets. So that is your responsibility. Kṛṣṇa comes down to instruct you this philosophy, this fact. Now it is up to you to accept or not to ac... You have got the independence. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 18.66). This is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti... (BG 4.9). Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ (BG 8.15). That is the highest perfection; you go back to Kṛṣṇa. If you don't go, that is your choice.

Guest (2): What is this greatness, that, to know the divinity when Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "Those who know that I am divine and..." Janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). How... What is the real meaning of knowing it, I mean. I read it ten times...

Morning Walks -- October 1-3, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always merciful. He comes Himself also and demands surrender, but we do not do that. That we cannot do.

Jayatīrtha: As you were saying last night, if we had no independence, then there wouldn't be any question of... We'd be just like dull matter. There'd be no difference. So we have that independence.

Prabhupāda: By our misuse of independence, we do not surrender. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender!"

Jayatīrtha: The spiritual master teaches how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Whatever you like.

Scholar: Whatever you like.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you like. That independence is there always. But he has... Just like we are speaking. This is the aim of life. Now if you like then take, you'll not take—that depends on your independence. So that independence is all... Before that independence is there, therefore we are sometimes degrading from this human life to cats' and dogs' life. So it is the duty of the human society to save the human being to degrade, from becoming again cats and dogs, or to elevate him higher and higher. Does it mean that we are, we shall be satisfied with our present stage of life without knowing what we are going to accept? Is that very nice proposal? Or we shall try to elevate the human society, that is higher.

Room Conversation -- March 17, 1973, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was my intimate friend. So in their house, old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich man. So, he informed me that "One nice sannyāsī came to our house," and he was invited, "in Ultadanga there is Gauḍīya Maṭha, so he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic (?), "I know all these sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me, "Oh, why not come? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in that Ultadanga building, and that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof. There was small house (indistinct) room, and we were welcome, because they thought Naren Mullik was very rich man and he has contributed some money. So, we went to see Prabhupāda, offered our obeisances. So immediately he said that "You are all educated young men, why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" So I replied him, "Sir, we are dependent nation, who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence," because I was politically-minded at that time.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He also says that the species are not created independently. They say it is descended from, one after another.

Prabhupāda: So, if there is no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into existence. Harer nāma harer nāma...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are so many books on Darwin's theory. Goes... In the library, if one goes there are hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory.

Prabhupāda: They have accepted or protested?

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: The, the independence movement of Africa, they took great inspiration from Gandhi's movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Brahmānanda: If Gandhi did it, then, they say: "Oh, now we can do it."

Prabhupāda: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa-nama...

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is warned by Śaṅkarācārya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Bālakānām. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyāsī. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyāsī. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So what was that greater mission?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For independence, fighting.

Prabhupāda: No. Why he wanted to join Ramakrishna mission? What is the attraction of Ramakrishna mission? What they have done? Ramakrishna mission, what they have done? The Ramakrishna mission is working here in your country... (end)

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.

Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...

Prabhupāda: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.

Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.

Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And...

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that He does not do. Otherwise, otherwise, there is no meaning of being part and parcel of God. God is fully independent, and we are minute part of God. Therefore we have got independence. That independence is minute, but there is. So if God interferes with your independence, then you are no longer part and parcel of God. Therefore God says that "You do this." Now, I misuse my independence. I do not do it. Therefore I am bad.

Mr. Wadell: Our positions do not differ on this point. We think exactly the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not do it. Just like your father says, "My dear son, do like this," but you disobey. Therefore you are bad son. So my badness is creation of my misuse of independence.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is his choice.

Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition?

Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept.

Guest (10): So does faith develop from accepting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) Get the lights on.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself; whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from, whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee.

Guest (11): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (2): He's just asking for your blessings...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (2): Your blessings, Swamiji, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems.

Guest (11): Personal family problem. I am now (indistinct)

Guest (2): I told him...

Room Conversation with Guest -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.

Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.

Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...

Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed: the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra, just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent?

Guest (1): In a money-orientated world?

Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence.

Guest (1): No, I know.

Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent.

Guest (1): No, I understand that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money, if you become independent, that is intelligence.

Śrutakīrti: That was her question.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Tanner: What...? Would you ever admit that a spirit could fail after his last chance...?

Prabhupāda: That misuse of little independence. That I have already told. He has got little independence. So so long he's engaged in the service of the Lord, he remains in a spiritual body along with the Lord.

Father Tanner: No, I'm saying is it possible for any spirit not ultimately, after his various transmigrations through bodies, is it possible for any spirit never to regain contact with the Lord?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he comes in contact with a servant of God, then he revives his old consciousness, original consciousness.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: There is no... You are talking of mechanically. But I am talking of that little independence. As soon as the living entity desires to unite with the Supreme Lord, he can become.

Father Tanner: Yes, but will it ever...

Prabhupāda: And so long he does not desire, he'll have to continue this material existence. So that depends on him.

Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring?

Prabhupāda: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, you don't, you do not want, you want or not want, that is not the question. First of all you must know what is your real identity. You do not want and do want, that independence you have got always. That is a different thing. But first of all you must know what is your identity. Your identity is... That I have already explained. The... You are part and parcel of God. So far we understand, our philosophy is... From the Bhagavad-gītā. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. The whole thing is one unity, unit, and everything is part and parcel of God, His energy. So we, the marginal energy, living entities, we are also part and parcel of God. As part and parcel of God, what is my duty? Just like this finger. There is itching. Immediately it comes, serves. (end)

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent.

Mother: Yes, but he was...

Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you.

Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university.

Prabhupāda: But... That's all right. If some of our student goes to the university... There are many students...

Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael.

Prabhupāda: We don't object to that.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. Their argument is... They will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.

Yogeśvara: Then why has He given us independence if...

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got...

Yogeśvara: ...if we misuse it?

Prabhupāda: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel?

Guru-gaurāṅga: And if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be the fault.

Bhagavān: That makes everything complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Then? It is a common sense affair. The God has given you independence. If you do something wrong, against the will of God, then you must suffer. Therefore we find so many varieties of living entities. In different grades of life. That is due to misuse of independence.

Yogeśvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use, misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society, something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's the soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So that is independence. Your parents were cruel. Therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence.

Devotee: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.

Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm?

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.

Prabhupāda: Hmmm?

Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.

Prabhupāda: Not lost. Misused.

Haṁsadūta: Fallen into māyā. Or misused.

Prabhupāda: Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that: sarva-dharmān... "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concessions. Immediately you are free from all reaction and come back to Me." Therefore, God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that: "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Bhagavān: The problem with these different discussions is these philosophers are simply stubborn. When they hear a better philosophy, they still will not change.

Prabhupāda: That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept: "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence.

Yogeśvara: Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect.

Guru-gaurāṅga: Does there come a time Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one misuses his independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if...

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Animal life?

Prabhupāda: Animal life, what is that?

Yogeśvara: Do animals also have independence?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got little independence.

Guru-gaurāṅga: They say, "All is instinct."

Prabhupāda: You say. They say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not... My point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see. Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal... Suppose if you put—I've given this example many times—a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human beings, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore, the human being is more responsible for sinful activities.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Guru-gaurāṅga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence.

Prabhupāda: What?

Guru-gaurāṅga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence.

Prabhupāda: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.

Guru-gaurāṅga: So real independence means to surrender then.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to māyā. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Kṛṣṇa. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109).

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there. And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again (indistinct). This is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, the have misused their independence. Therefore, they are in the material world. Otherwise why should they remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. (end)

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Prabhupāda: He always prays, "Oh, how to get out, how to get out." Then he gets, come out, comes out. Then another life begins. That is also accompanied with so many miserable conditions from the birth. Just like, don't mind, when you drive your car, it is not a very good position. (laughter) Yes. But you are taking that risk for winning over. But the position is not very good. At any moment there can be accident. So similarly, we are trying to achieve some goal of life, every one of us—there are so many varieties of living entities—with the risk of life and death, old age and disease. But if we know what is our actual aim of life... The actual aim of life should be back to home, back to Godhead. Then this human form of life is successful. Just like your son. If he goes out independent. Now he is under father's protection, he is very happy. But if he declares his independence... Just like Śyāmasundara. He is very rich man's son. His father, I met him. His father is a big lawyer, big businessman. But he declared independence. And I know his life history, how much he had to go through so many tribulations. Similarly, we are also sons of God. We have declared independence and we are going through so many chapters of life and death in different... Now we have got... Suppose you have got now a nice Englishman's body but next body you do not know what kind of body you are going to get. That will depend on your karma and desire.

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Prabhupāda: Yes, ...that's nice. Yes. So he sometimes becomes disobedient? Sometimes? Eh? Why? (laughs) That means you have got independence. Is it not? Yes. That means he has got independence. Yes. This is a fact. Similarly we are sons of God, we have got little independence. We may remain with God, we may give up His company and come here to find our own fortune. And to find our own fortune we are becoming implicated and taking birth in different species of life. That is our ignorance. You are obedient to your mother?

Girl: Sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes, not always.

Room Conversation with Officer Harry Edwards, the Village Policeman -- August 30, 1973, Bhaktivedanta Manor, London:

Harry: No, no, no. You're getting the wrong idea. You're getting the wrong idea. No, you're getting the wrong idea. No you're getting, you're gonna get the wrong idea. First of all, you've got your principles, you've got your independence. Same as I've got mine. Right? It is your place. This is your home. If I don't like the way you live, that's... I don't have to... I can either shut my eyes to it, but I don't have to turn away from you. Same as you may not like the way I live.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harry: Right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, "France and Napoleon identical." But France is there; where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not. Therefore we do not know what is the perfection of life.

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to remain unhappy by your whims, then what... God cannot help you. But you have got the intelli..., independence.

Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, if some people say, "Well, I have no free will," that means that they are actually lazy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got free will, but must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So people... Sometimes Kṛṣṇa interferes in the free will?

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our free will.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault.

Hṛdayānanda: They say that God should have created us so that we...

Prabhupāda: Why "Should have created"? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation), everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.

Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, because they are perfect.

Prajāpati: Therefore all-auspiciousness appears by your presence, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but why they, you accept it? You have got independence also. Acceptance and rejection.

Yaśomatīnandana: English car, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce. Not only English, you could not. (laughter) You could not, but he has done. Sometimes Śyāmasundara is envious of Karandhara. Now, just see what is the difference. He has taken twenty thousand dollars. He cannot pay.

Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that—and that is a fact—that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he though that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese.

Page Title:Independence (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, RupaManjari
Created:31 of Aug, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=59, Let=0
No. of Quotes:59