Allen Ginsberg: So, as the Kali-yuga became more intense and as attachment became deeper and more confusing . . .
Prabhupāda: Attachment for?
Allen Ginsberg: . . . that salvation would also have to become easier and easier in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: That is very nice statement that in the Kali-yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also. But that process is this kīrtana, not LSD.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was . . . the reasoning there was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, and completely material form . . .
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there is . . .
Allen Ginsberg: . . . that Kṛṣṇa had the humor to emerge as a pill.
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that when it is material form . . .
Allen Ginsberg: Yes?
Prabhupāda: . . . then where it is salvation? It is illusion.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective effect is to cut . . .
Prabhupāda: No.
Allen Ginsberg: . . . attachment during the . . .
Prabhupāda: Well, if you have got attachments for something material, then where is the cut-off of attachment? LSD is a material chemical.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So if you have to take shelter of LSD, then you take, I mean to say, help from the matters. So that is . . . how you can . . . how you are free from matter?
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter . . .
Prabhupāda: So that is risky. That is risky.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Now so, if LSD is a material attachment, which it is, I think, then is not the sound, śabda, also a material attachment?
Prabhupāda: No, śabda is spiritual. Originally, just like in Bible there is "Let there be creation," this sound, this spiritual sound. Creation. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore, sound is originally spiritual, and through the sound . . . sound—from sound, sky develops; from sky, air develop; from air, fire develop; fire, water develop; from water, land develop.
Allen Ginsberg: Sound is the first element of creation?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Allen Ginsberg: What was the first sound, traditionally?
Prabhupāda: Vedic states oṁ. Yes. So at least we can understand, from your Bible, that God said: "Let there be creation." So this is sound, and there is creation. God and His sound is nondifferent, absolute. I say "Mr. Ginsberg," this sound and I, a little difference. But God is nondifferent from His energy.
Nitya . . . what is called? Śakti śaktimator abhedhaḥ. Śakti, energy, and śakti-mat, the energetic, they are nondifferent. Just like fire and heat, they are nondifferent, but heat is not fire. You cannot differentiate heat from fire or fire from heat. But fire is not heat.