It is not a question of any personal religion or personal ambition or something manufactured by some imperfect sense enjoyer. It is authorized because Bhagavad-gītā is authorized. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted... First of all, He was, it was accepted by Arjuna in toto. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). "My dear Kṛṣṇa, whatever You are saying, I accept it in toto, without any interpretation, without any rejection." Somebody says, somebody may say, "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend. To praise Him, he might have said like that." No. Arjuna immediately gives evidence that "It is not that I am accepting but you are accepted as, as such by such great personalities as, like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita." He gives authority. So that was five thousand years ago. Later on, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, even Śaṅkarācārya. We Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, they differ little with Śaṅkarācārya. Impersonalist and personalist. But Śaṅkarācārya even, even though he was impersonalist, he accepted Kṛṣṇa in his commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. Sai bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no doubt about it. By all authorities. And Kṛṣṇa Himself says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior authority than Me."
Imperfect (Lectures, Other)
Expressions researched:
"imperfect"
|"imperfection"
|"imperfectional"
|"imperfections"
|"imperfectly"
|"imperfectness"
|"imperfects"
Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
The example is given in this connection. Just like a girl is married. Generally, a girl wants a child. But if she wants a child immediately after marriage, that is not possible. She must wait. She must serve her husband nicely. Utsāhān dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Just like a faithful wife. Time will come she will become pregnant and she will have child. So niścayāt means... Just like the girl must know because she's married, because she has got a husband, that there must be a child. It is a fact. It may be little later. Similarly, when you have entered into devotional service, bhakti-yoga, bhakti-mārga, your success is assured, provided you are enthusiastic and patient. Not that "Immediately I want a child," "Immediately I become fully Kṛṣṇa consciousness and perfect." No. There may be so many imperfections. Because we are in the imperfect atmosphere. But patiently, if you go on executing your duties in devotional service as it is directed in the śāstras and confirmed by the spiritual master, then rest assured that your success is guaranteed. This is the way. Utsāhān dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You must execute the duties.
Pradyumna: (reading) "The basic principle of the living condition is that we have a general propensity to love someone. No one can live without loving someone else. This propensity is present in every living being. Even an animal like a tiger has this loving propensity, at least in a dormant stage, and it is certainly present in the human beings. The missing point, however, is where to repose our love so that everyone can become happy. At the present moment, the human society teaches one to love his country or family or his personal self, but there is no information where to repose the loving propensity so that everyone can become happy. That missing point is Kṛṣṇa, and the Nectar of Devotion teaches us how to stimulate our original love for Kṛṣṇa and how to be situated in that position where we can enjoy our blissful life. In the primary stage, a child loves his parents, then his brothers and sisters, and as he daily grows up, he begins to love his family, society, community, country, nation, or even the whole human society. But the loving propensity is not satisfied, even by loving all human society. That loving propensity remains imperfectly fulfilled until we know who is the Supreme Beloved. Our love can be fully satisfied only when it is reposed in Kṛṣṇa. This..."
Prabhupāda: There is a nice example in this connection. In the pond, reservoir of water, if you drop one stone, it becomes a circle. The circle increases, increasing, increasing... Unless it comes to the shore, the circle increases. Similarly, our loving propensity increases. In the primary stage, a child whatever he gets, he puts into his mouth. Anna-brahman. Then gradually, as the child grows, sometimes he distributes to his other brother or parents, the love increases. In this way, self-centered, then family-centered, then community-centered, society-centered, nation-centered, international centered... So this increase of our loving propensity will not be satisfied unless it reaches the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We love. The loving propensity is there. Even we have no family... Sometimes we keep pets, cats and dogs, to love. So we are, by nature we used to love somebody else. So that somebody else is Kṛṣṇa. Actually, we want to love Kṛṣṇa, but without information of Kṛṣṇa, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, our loving propensity is limited. Within certain circle. Therefore we are not satisfied. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. That love affair, loving propensity, is eternally existing, to love Kṛṣṇa. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, when he met the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he became fully satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42).
The same example. Just like if you water in the root of tree, then the water is distributed all over the branches, leaves and flowers and everywhere. If you put foodstuff in the stomach, the energy's distributed all over the body. Everyone can understand this. There are... Kṛṣṇa is the root. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). He's the root. But we are neglecting the root. We are trying to pour water in the leaves. The leaf will dry, and his labor will be frustrated. That is happening. So-called humanitarian service, social service, without any touch with Kṛṣṇa... Just like watering on the tree without touching the root—it is useless labor. Similarly, you do whatever service you can do to the society, to the community, to the nation, but do it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you're perfect. Otherwise it will remain imperfect. The persons who are, whom you are giving service, they'll never be happy, neither you'll be happy. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that they're simply wasting their time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply wasting their time in so-called humanitarian service. They must take... Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Everything should be in relationship with Kṛṣṇa.
Pradyumna: "In the primary stage a child loves his parents, then his brothers and sisters. And as he daily grows up, he begins to love his family, society, community, country, nation or even the whole human society. But the loving propensity is not satisfied even by loving all human society. That loving propensity remains imperfectly fulfilled..."
Prabhupāda: When Vyāsadeva finished his all scripture writing, all the Vedas, Purāṇas, even Brahma-sūtra, he was not happy. He was not happy, and his spiritual master, Nārada, came, inquired: "Why you are not happy? You have done so much work." So he could not explain. He said, "I, I do not find why I am unhappy. But because you are my spiritual master, you can say." So he indicated that "Because you did not describe about the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore you are not happy. Now you try to describe the Supreme Personality of Godhead, particularly." And therefore he wrote this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You'll find this in the Third Chapter of the First Canto.
Pradyumna: "But that loving propensity is not satisfied even by loving all of human society." Oh. "That loving propensity remains imperfectly fulfilled until we know who is the supreme beloved."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Supreme beloved, Kṛṣṇa. Supreme Person, supreme beautiful, supreme rich, supreme famous, supreme wise. Everything supreme. We love somebody, or, out of these six opulences, if one opulence is there... Suppose one man is very rich and charitable, we love him. And... Just think over how Kṛṣṇa is rich and how He's charitable. He is giving His charity, He's distributing foodstuff, millions and millions of living entities every day. We are taking prou..., pride if we can feed, say, hundred, two hundred, five hundred, two thousand. But just imagine. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. There are millions and millions of elephants all over the universe; Kṛṣṇa is supplying their food. There are so many animals. How they're getting food? So many birds. How they can...? Actually there is no scarcity of food. The scarcity of food is for the human society, or the animals who live with them. Because actually the human society is misusing the advanced consciousness; therefore they are put into the trouble. At the present moment, there is scarcity of water all over India, and so many things are being restricted. But in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajñād bhavati parjanya. So they are not performing yajñas. So this is nature's restriction. We have got this information. They are not performing yajñas. They, they think by science, by electricity, by this and that, shall provide everything. But then the electricity is being also reduced, supply of electricity is being controlled. And one after, one after another, one after another... Because the supreme controller, if He does not sanction, your so-called scientific improvement or so-called social service will not make the whole world satisfied. That is not possible. That is not possible. This secret is known to the devotees.
Kṛṣṇa does not appear or disappear. Kṛṣṇa is always present, but we see at a certain period. Just like the sun. Sun is always in the sky, but when it is daytime, we see, and at nighttime, we cannot see. At nighttime, because we cannot see, it does not mean there is no sun. It is our imperfectness of eyes, we cannot see. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always present. One who has got eyes, he can see. When all the circumstances favorable, he can see. Kṛṣṇa is always... Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti 'yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). So Kṛṣṇa can be seen always, if we have got eyes to see. That eyes, how you can be transferred? Premāñjana-cchurita. When it is smeared with the ointment of love, then with these eyes you can see Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is always there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's represent everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Kṛṣṇa is not absent. Kṛṣṇa is always there. We haven't got eyes to see Him. So we have to prepare the eyes. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When you make your eyes nirmala, when you give up all these titular designations—"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am black," "I am white..." These are all designations.
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to make people dhīra, not adhīra. Adhīra cannot understand. But even adhīra can understand. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī, dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. A perfect devotee is dear, both for the dhīra and adhīra. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So for a devotee, both the dhīra and adhīra welcome. We do not say only the perfect persons should come here. No. Perfect or imperfect, come here. Take part with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dhīrādhīra, it doesn't matter. Because one who's adhīra, by associating with the dhīras, he'll also become dhīra. Just like one is not drunkard, but associating with the drunkards, he becomes a drunkard. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. So similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving chance to everyone. Not to speak of... Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). Api cet sudur... What is that verse? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). They also... Te 'pi yānti, yānti parāṁ gatim. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice, even the most sinful person can go back to home, back to Godhead. And what to speak of the pious brāhmaṇas? Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). They will go. Even those who are sinful, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll also go. It is so nice.
That is your nature: you forget. So you do not remember even the incidences of this life. How you can remember the incidents of your past life? Because you are forgetful. You are so imperfect that you forget after two hours everything. That is your nature. That does not mean that you had, you did not do anything. And, besides that, the... You remember or not remember. Suppose your guardian remembers, "My dear child, when you were a small baby, you did it." But you remember no... Similarly Kṛṣṇa is there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Anumantā upadraṣṭā. He knows everything. You may forget. But Kṛṣṇa knows. "You wanted this thing. All right. Take it. You worked for this. Now I give you the opportunity. You take this. You wanted to eat everything and anything, without any discrimination. All right. Now you become a hog." That is Kṛṣṇa's favor.
So nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Our love for Kṛṣṇa is there already, but it is being choked up by material conditions. I want to love, but some blind leader, he comes. He says that "You love your, this country, your society, humanity," and you love your society but you cut throat of another society. This is going on. Because it is imperfect. One side, they're teaching "Love your nation," and cut the throat of another nation. So this kind of love, or this kind of loving propensity will not be ever satisfied. We shall always remain unsatisfied, because this is artificial. The same example: If you want to love, then you have to pour water on the root of the tree. Then it will be all right. Otherwise, if you manufacture so many ways of love, then certainly you'll be confused and frustrated. (aside:) Why don't you sit down here? Come on.
Therefore Jīva Gosvāmī, this merging principle, he has explained: just like a green bird enters into a green tree, it, it appears that the bird is no more existing. To the imperfect eyes. But the bird is existing. We cannot see. Both the tree and the bird being green, we see it has merged. Because the spiritual sky and the spiritual living being, a small, it merges it does not merge. It is there. The individuality is there. And because this individuality, fragment of the Supreme Brahman, is eternal, is eternal, sanātana... It is not that spirit can be cut into pieces. That is not possible. So we are fragmental parts. That means eternally we are so, individual. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). We are one of the nityas. There are innumerable nityas and cetanaś, the living entities, part and parcel of the supreme living entity, Kṛṣṇa. They're all individual.
One has to accept a guru, a spiritual master, who has received knowledge from another perfect spiritual master. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the origin, perfect spiritual master, guru. So Kṛṣṇa, what Kṛṣṇa said, was realized by Arjuna, directly. Therefore if we receive knowledge from Arjuna or his disciplic succession, then our knowledge is perfect. Kṛṣṇa..., Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Brahman: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So if we accept the version of Arjuna, that Kṛṣṇa is Paraṁ Brahman, He's the Supreme Person, He's the origin of everything, then our knowledge is perfect. I may be imperfect, but because I receive knowledge from a perfect person, my knowledge is perfect. This is called paramparā system.
And when we come to this knowledge, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," then I am liberated. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Hitvā anyathā rūpam. I am accepting a different type of body and different type of position, and I am identifying myself with that particular position. That is my ignorance. Although I am acting just like a perfect brāhmaṇa or perfect kṣatriya or perfect vaiśya, still, I am imperfect, because my perfection is not to act as a vaiśya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, American, Indian, but to act as servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is liberation. That is liberation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means liberation. That nirmalam means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. The Vaiṣṇava process is to become nirmalam. Tat-paratvena. A real, pure Vaiṣṇava simply identifies himself as a servant of Kṛṣṇa; therefore he's nirmalam, he's liberated. He does not identify himself as a kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, American, Indian. No. That is not his position. But so long I stick to this designation, I am not nirmala, I am samala, "with dirty things." So we have to be relieved from these dirty things and come to the original position of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then our sinful activities and its reaction will be counteracted.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, "Here is the Paraṁ Brahman." When he is describing Kṛṣṇa's pastimes with the cowherd boys, so Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, "These cowherd boys are playing with the Supreme Person who is the source of brahma-sukha." Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā. And for the devotees... There are two kinds of transcendentalist: one Brahmavādi and other, Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava takes this philosophy, that we are servant. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). And the Māyāvādī philosophers, they imperfectly think that they have become one with the Supreme, they have become Nārāyaṇa. That is a misleading philosophy. We should not accept that.
So when rascals and fools think in their imperfect stage as perfect, the whole anomalies of this world begins. The rascals and fools, they do not think themselves that "I am rascal and fool." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu presents Himself before His spiritual master... Not He presented—His spiritual master found Him, that "You are fool number one." So we should be always prepared to admit our imperfection. But such imperfection is not in, on the īśvara. Īśvara means "controller." If the controller is imperfect... Suppose a man is in charge, director of such and such a department, education department, and if he's a fool, then what is the use of keeping such man? Therefore īśvara, those who are controllers, they have no such flaw. That is to be admitted first. They are flawless. And what to speak of the Parameśvara. There are two kinds of īśvara. Īśvara, you can, you are also īśvara, but you are now in imperfect stage. When you become perfect, you become īśvara, controller. For example, just like, at the present conditioned stage, we are all controlled by the senses. So when you at least become the controller of the senses, then you become īśvara. Now we are controlled by the senses, but when you become actually controller of the senses, then you become īśvara. Then there will be less mistake, less illusion, less cheating, and perfection.
This is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. The nonsense rascals, they cannot manufacture religion. Religion cannot be... Just like ordinary citizens, they cannot make laws for the state. Suppose if you make a law. Who will care for your law? Don't take advantage of the innocent people and make your own religion and make a group and try to exploit them. This is all nonsense. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma means the regulation of the Supreme. So we have to know. That is religion. So any religion which is directing to obey the Supreme Lord, that is bona fide. And anything minus or "Not to Kṛṣṇa but to me," this is a nonsense rascaldom. You see. So before studying Vedānta, we should understand this fact. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is therefore stressing on this point, that there is no cheating, there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no imperfectness. Then we can make progress. If we are doubtful: "Oh, Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by some Kṛṣṇa, somebody. He was learned man, philosopher. So I can point out my own point..." No. Not like that.
So He's not so easy to understand. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is born in Mathurā. His father is Vasudeva. Oh, He..." No. He's unborn. He's unborn, but I am seeing that He's born. Just like sun is unborn. I am seeing that at five o'clock sun is born in the eastern side of New York City. This is my foolishness. Sun is never born. He's always there. It is my imperfectness that I am seeing that sun is born this hour. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is never born. Kṛṣṇa is just like sun. So as they are, if we want to understand... Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet: "Things which are beyond your conception," avāṅ manasā gocaraḥ, "beyond your expression, beyond your knowledge, don't apply your so-called argument and reason." That is Vedānta study. If, if you do not understand, put question to your spiritual master, try to understand, but as a matter of fact, you should know, "What is stated here, that is all right. It is due to my imperfectness of knowledge I cannot just now understand it. Let me ask my spiritual master and let me understand it properly." But a thing as it is, that is all right. We must take it. Mukhya-vṛttye. Mukhya means "as it is." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). What commentation you can give? If the Vedas says, Īśopaniṣad, that "Everything belongs to God," how can you deny it? What is your argument? What is your...? You cannot deny it.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says the direct meaning of Brahman is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cid-aiśvarya-paripūrṇa, anūrdhva-samāna. Now what is the grammatical meaning of Brahman? The grammatical meaning of Brahman is that "the greatest" and "expansive." That is the grammatical meaning of Brahman. Which is unlimitedly expanded and greatest, He is called Brahman. Now, who can be unlimitedly expansive unless He's unlimitedly powerful? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, the same meaning is there. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So Brahman-Paramātmā ultimately means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Without coming to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the conception of Brahman-Paramātmā is imperfect. Why? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that cid-aiśvarya-paripūrṇa, anūrdhva-samāna. You cannot have conception of the greatest, unlimited, unless you place six kinds of opulence, opulences in full. Because aiśvarya, the opulences... Just like wealth, fame, and beauty, knowledge, and renunciation, they should be unlimited. Now, when they are not unlimited, he's not Brahman, or he's not the Supreme Lord.
So somehow or other, a few people, out of many millions and thousands, they come to the understanding that what is the real perfection of life. Now, those who are actually perfected, out of them, out of millions of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Siddhānām means those who are already achieved perfection. Out of them—not these imperfect fools—those who are actually attained perfection, they can understand what Kṛṣṇa is actually, tattvataḥ. And that actual position can be understood... In another place in Bhagavad-gītā it says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: (BG 18.55) "What He is actually, that can be understood by this devotional service, no other process." No other process will help to understand Kṛṣṇa. You can... By other processes you can achieve some other thing, but if you want to know Kṛṣṇa, then you have to understand through your devotional service. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: (BG 18.55) "As I am." Tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā.
So far we get information, all the planets, they are full of living entities. Janakīrṇa. It is stated in the Vedic literatures, janakīrṇa. Janakīrṇa means congested with living entities. Therefore we see New York City is congested with so many living entities. But if you go higher, then you cannot appreciate how New York City is so congested, or other cities are congested. So similarly, we have no knowledge of these planets, but each and every planet, millions and trillions, they are all congested, full with living entities. This is Vedic information. It is not imagination, imperfect imagination. No. It is fact. So we learn from the śāstra that on account of illumination of the moon, the vegetation in every planet is, I mean to say, flourishing condition, due to the moon. Still we find reaction of the moon on the waves of the seas and ocean. So everything has got its necessity. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktir. They are all acting as potency of the Supreme Lord. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktir. They are śakti; they are not śaktimān. Śaktimān means one who possesses the potency. And we are all śaktis.
We should always think that we are in the modes of ignorance. We are just trying to make progress from ignorance to goodness and then transcend. This is the process of spiritual realization. Nobody should think that we are perfect. We cannot be. God is... Only God is perfect, and we are all imperfect. Even our so-called liberated stage, we are still imperfect. Therefore one has to take shelter of authority because, constitutionally, we are imperfect. Lord Caitanya says, āmā-sabā jīvera haya śāstra-dvārā 'jñāna'. So therefore, for real knowledge, we have to consult the scriptures, śāstra. Sādhu-śāstra-guru. Sādhu means pious, religious, honest person. Sādhu, whose character is spotless, he's called sādhu. Śāstra means scripture, and guru, guru means spiritual master. They are on the equal level. Why? Because the medium is scripture. Guru is considered to be liberated because he follows the scripture. Sādhu is considered to be honest and saintly because he follows scripture. Sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Nobody can become a sādhu if he does not accept the principles of scripture. Nobody can be accepted as guru, or spiritual master, if he does not follow the principles of scripture. This is the test.
Sri Brahma-samhita Lectures
We are catching fish, but small fishes. We have not seen. Even if we have seen the biggest fish, that is, whale... Sometimes they are as big as one big ship. But there are other fishes, we get information, they are called timiṅgila. The big fish, the whale fish, and timiṅgila means there is another big fish which swallows this timiṅgila, this whale just like anything. These informations are there. And in Calcutta Museum, in our childhood—it may be still existing—we saw one skeleton of a fish that is bigger than this room, a skeleton. It is hanging on the ceiling. So there are very, very big, big fishes. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. You get immediately information, without being a biologist, scientist, you can get information. The Darwin's theory, in most perfection, there is in the Padma Purāṇa: jīva-jatiṣu. The evolutionary theory is there. But Darwin is missing the real point: Who is, who is evolving? He's missing the spirit soul. He cannot explain. That is imperfect.
Therefore, the Bhāgavata says, just like watering the root of the tree you can serve all the leaves, flowers, branches, and everything of the tree, just by supplying foodstuff to your stomach you can serve all the limbs of your body, similarly, simply by loving Kṛṣṇa you can learn how to love everyone. If you don't love Kṛṣṇa, and if you love the whole universe, it is still imperfect. Imperfect. And, because we are not loving Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are sectarian. Just like, take for example your country, or any country, it doesn't matter. I am giving example, I am not attacking anybody, I am giving example. You love your countrymen. That's very nice, but why don't you love the cows of your country? As it... It is also living entity. They are also born in this country. Have they not right to live? Oh, you know in argument, in logic, you will accept, "Yes." But because we do not love Kṛṣṇa, therefore there is partiality, that one section of the living entities should be loved, and the another section of the living entities should be sent to the slaughterhouse.
Festival Lectures
So because Kṛṣṇa has personality and because Kṛṣṇa has individuality, we have individuality. Kṛṣṇa's existence, because He is perfect, is the most certain. Imperfect existence has no meaning. Our existence has no meaning except as reference, in reference to Kṛṣṇa's existence. We haven't even got the power to conserve our own existence. Or in other words, we can't understand how we're existing. We can understand in some deluded manner that we're feeding our bodies and so on. We can have some sort of knowledge of ritual. But we don't actually know what we are and what the ritual is, why we're performing it.
Arrival Addresses and Talks
No, the process is, just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, the water is distributed to the leaf, branches, twigs, and they remain fresh. But if you water on the leaf only, the leaf will also dry, and the twig will be also dry. If you put your foodstuff on the stomach, then the energy will be distributed to your finger, to your hairs to your nails and everywhere. And if you take foodstuff in the hand and do not put in the stomach, it will be useless waste. So all this humanitarian service has been wasted because there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're trying so many ways to serve the human society, but they're all being frustrated in useless attempt, because there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if people are trained to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then automatically everyone will be happy. Any one who will join, one, anyone who will hear, anyone who will cooperate—everyone will be happy. So our process is natural process. You love God, and if you (are) actually expert in loving God, naturally you love everyone. Just like Kṛṣṇa conscious person, because he loves God, he loves the animals also. He loves birds, beasts, everyone. But so-called humanitarian love means they're loving some human being, but the animals are being killed. Why they do not love the animals? Because imperfect. But the Kṛṣṇa conscious person will never kill an animal or give trouble to animal even. But that is universal love. If you love only your brother or sister, that is not universal love. Universal love means you love everyone. That universal love can be developed by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not by otherwise.
Yes. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has also said, chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for nistāra. Nistāra means to be liberated from the capture of māyā. That is called nistāra, release, release from the capture of māyā. So Vaiṣṇava... Chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, another Vaiṣṇava... As it sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, similarly, you know that Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he also has sung many song, approved songs. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says that Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs are Vedic evidence. All Vaiṣṇavas, songs are like that, Vedic evidence. There is no mistake, cheating, imperfectness or illusion. Conditioned soul, they are manufacturing by mental concoction. That is another thing. They are full of imperfection, illusion, mistake and cheating. But when we hear songs by the Vaiṣṇava, that is for liberation.
Cornerstone Ceremonies
So very clear. Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra still. In the Vedas it is stated, kurukṣetre dharmam ācaret: "One should go to Kurukṣetra and perform religious rituals." Therefore it is dharma-kṣetra from time immemorial. And why should we interpret it that "This Kurukṣetra means this body, dharmakṣetra, this body"? Why? Why mislead people? Stop this misleading. And Kurukṣetra is still there. Kurukṣetra station, railway station, is there. So try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, make your life successful, and spread this message all over the world. You will be happy; the world will be happy. Of course, I am now very old man. I am eighty years old. My life is finished. But I want some responsible Indian and combined with other countries... Other countries, they are giving good cooperation. Otherwise, it was not possible for me to spread in so short time, only seven or eight years, to preach this cult all over the world. So I require the cooperation of the Indian, especially young men, educated men. Come forward. Stay with us. Study Bhagavad-gītā. We haven't got anything to manufacture. Nothing to manufacture. And what we can manufacture? We are all imperfect. Whatever is there, let us study it and practically apply in life and spread the message all over the world. That is our mission.
General Lectures
Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ. This process of argument and logic, gymnasium, is imperfect always. You cannot realize what is the ultimate goal of life. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. Śruta means Vedas or books of knowledge. There are different kinds of theories and doctrines. So if you read those books, unless you are very nicely directed, that will create also perplexity. Śrutayo vibhinnam. And so far philosophical speculation is concerned, the Bhāgavata says that nāsau muni yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Muni means mental speculator. So you cannot find any mental speculator who is not differing from another mental speculator. So tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ, the path of so-called logic and argument, is not perfect. Then, simply if you study different books of knowledge, that will also not give you perfect knowledge. If you consult so-called mental speculators, their different views, then dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. The ultimate goal of life is very confidential and mysterious. And how to know it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Mahājana means the perfect realized souls who have realized, you have to follow them. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Therefore this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is accepting the mahājana, the authority. The first authority is Kṛṣṇa.
So we have to continue this chanting, either imperfectional stage or in the perfectional stage. Satatām kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). In the Bhagavad-gītā, you will see that this kīrtana is recommended continuously. Satatam. Satatam means always. Either in the imperfect stage or in the perfect stage, the process is one. It is not like the Māyāvādīs, that first of all you chant, and by chanting, when you become yourself God, then there is no chanting—stop. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. This is not real, the position. Chanting will continue even in your highest perfectional stage. But that chanting and at the present moment chanting, there is little difference. Yes.
Yes. Never think that service is perfect. That will keep you in the perfect stage. Yes. We should always think that our service is not complete. Yes. That is very nice. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us that... He said that "My dear friends, please take it from Me that I have not a pinch of faith in Kṛṣṇa. If you say that why I am crying, the answer is that just to make a show that I am great devotee. Actually, I have not a pinch of love for Kṛṣṇa. This crying is simply My show, makeshow." "Why You are saying so?" "Now, the thing is that I am still living without seeing Kṛṣṇa. That means I have no love for Kṛṣṇa. I am still living. I should have died long ago without seeing Kṛṣṇa." So we should think like that. That is the example. However perfect you may be in serving Kṛṣṇa, you should always know that... Kṛṣṇa is unlimited, so your service cannot reach Him perfectly. It will ever remain imperfect because we are limited. But Kṛṣṇa is so kind. If you offer a little service sincerely, He accepts. That is the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. And if Kṛṣṇa accepts a little service from you, then your life is glorious. So it is not possible to love Kṛṣṇa perfectly, to render service to Kṛṣṇa, because He is unlimited.
Just like in the mundane scholarship, one has to show his academic career by some research work. The Vedic process is different. Vedic process is that our research work is not complete because the instruments and the means by which we make progress in research work are blunt and imperfect. We are conditioned. At this stage of our material existence, we are conditioned by so many laws of nature. Under the circumstances, every conditioned soul has four defects. Just like to commit mistake. There is no man, even great man, who does not commit mistake. More or less, he commits mistake. Just like in our country there was Mahatma Gandhi. He was supposed to be a very great personality, mahātmā, but he also committed mistake because when he was killed, five minutes before his coming to the meeting, he was warned by his confidential associates not to go to that meeting, but he persisted, and as soon as he entered the meeting hall he was killed. So I am giving an instance that even a great personality like Mahatma Gandhi, he also committed mistake. So in the conditioned state of our life, committing mistake is very natural. Just like we say, "To err is human." Any human being is susceptible to commit mistake. Another imperfectness is that every man is illusioned. Illusioned means to accept something which is not, phantasmagoria. Just like every one of us in this meeting, we are under the impression that "I am this body." But actually I am not this body. This is called illusion, māyā.
Prabhupāda: Who knows me?
Man (8): You cannot prove everything by one authorized man. Another authorized man, he can change the words. Anybody can. Prabhupāda: No. If he is a perfect man, then he will not change because he knows the thing, "Yes, it is this." But if he is imperfect rascal, then he will change.
Man (8): How do you know that person who wrote it was perfect?
Prabhupāda: That you have to know from the perfect man. That is the way.
Man (8): And who is the perfect man?
Prabhupāda: That you have to find out, if you have got that capacity.
Man (8): How do you find out?
Prabhupāda: How do you find out a lawyer?
Man (8): Well, that's what I'm asking, you see. I've got a...
Prabhupāda: You have to see that "This man is lawyer, and many men is going there to take law advice, and he is gaining case. He is working." In that way you have to know.
Therefore the conclusion is that if you simply follow the perfect instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then automatically you become perfect, however imperfect you may be. That is our duty. It is not very difficult. Just like a child, a boy, a child. He's asking father, "My dear father, what is this?" An intelligent child questions like that. The father explains, "This is this," and the child accepts. Then his knowledge is perfect. But if he accepts the instruction of the father or mother, immediately he becomes perfect. There are many other examples. Just like a child wants to know who is father. The mother says, "My dear child, this gentleman is your father"—that is perfect knowledge. But if the child wants to research who is his father, it is impossible to find out. Similarly, if we want to know the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, or God, we have to take instruction from the supreme father, not speculating, just like by speculating we cannot understand our ordinary father without the instruction of mother. If you go on speculating, "He may be my father. He may be my father. He may be father," go on speculating, but you will never understand who is your father. But you accept the authoritative statement of your mother, that "He is your father"—that is perfect knowledge. That process should be accepted. Otherwise, our position is very precarious.
So similarly, if we get information from the authority, and if the authority is not a cheater, then our knowledge is perfect, and very easy. Just like father, mother, never cheats. When the son inquires from the parent, the parent gives exact information, right information. Similarly, if we get right information from the right person, that is perfect knowledge. If you want to reach to the conclusion by speculation, that is imperfect, inductive process. That will never become perfect. It will remain imperfect for all the time. So we get information from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever we speak, that is perfect because we don't speak anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa or authorities who have accepted Kṛṣṇa. That is called disciplic succession. So our process is, process of acquiring knowledge, is very easy and perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot say anything which is not accepted by the authorities coming from Kṛṣṇa. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa recommends this process of knowledge: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). "This knowledge, formerly, all the great saintly kings..." Formerly, there was monarchy. Just like nowadays also, the government is authority. Your President is authority. So in the days of monarchical king, government, the monarch or the king is head of the government. He is authority. But formerly, those authorities, those kings, were ṛṣis, great learned scholars, ṛṣis, great devotees. They were not ordinary men.
Original cause cannot be. It must be sentient. Creator must be sentient. Without brain, without creative power, how there can be creation? Where is your argument? No, that is not. These are false arguments. Therefore Vyāsadeva gives you information that He is sentient, in full knowledge. In full knowledge. What kind of knowledge? Anvaya-vyatirekābhyām, directly and indirectly. That is full knowledge. Just like I say "my head" or "my hair," but if I ask you or you ask that "How many hairs are there?" oh, I am ignorant. I do not know. Similarly, we are so imperfect that we may have little knowledge even of our own body. We are eating, but how the eatables are being transformed into secretion, how they are becoming blood, how they are being passed through the heart, and it becomes red, and again diffuse all over the veins, and in this way the body is maintained, we know something, but how the work is going on, how this factory is going on, how the factory, machine, is working, we have very little knowledge. So indirectly we know that "This is my body." "Indirectly" means we have heard, but we have no direct knowledge. But Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme, the original of everything, He knows everything. Anvaya-vyatirekābhyām, indirectly and directly. Kṛṣṇa knows.
The human life is meant for composing an association where devotees may take part, sādhu-saṅga. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes (SB 5.5.2). Mahat-seva. Mahat means whose mind has been broadened, not crippled. Cripple-minded man thinks in terms of personal interest or society's interest or community's interest, nation's interest, or international interest. Even international interest is cripple-minded, because there are many planets. If we expand ourself from self-interest to family interest, from family interest to community interest, similarly, even you expand to the international interest, it is imperfect unless your interest is expanded up to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the Vedic injunction in the Ṛg Veda, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Those who are advanced in knowledge, their aim is, their interest is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. But people do not know what is his self-interest. That is indicated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇu. Everyone should be self-interest. But in this material world, being illusioned, being bewildered by the material energy, we are thinking our self-interest in terms of our particular type of education. Somebody is thinking that "Simply I have to maintain my body somehow or other." Little expanded, thinking interest of society, you go on. But they do not know that the self-interest must expand to Lord Viṣṇu. And that is explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja.
So it is a great science. Bhāgavata-tattva vijñānam. It is not that you can create your Bhagavān by concoction, imagination. Just like the Māyāvādī philosophers say that sādhakānāṁ hitvārthāya brahmaṇo rūpa-kalpanaḥ(?): for the benefit or for the facility of the neophyte progressing in the spiritual knowledge, we have to imagine some form of the Brahman. That is not the fact. We do not find these things in the Vedic literature. We find in the Vedic literature that the Absolute Truth is realized in three features—Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. The substance is one, but according to our capacity, we understand differently. Just like example. If you see a great mountain, say Himalayan Mountain. Just like the other day when I was coming from Calcutta to Delhi, the Himalayan Mountains were seen from the plane, and it appeared just like a great city. But that is my shortage of vision. I cannot see what is Himalaya. Similarly, as we see imperfectly the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place, similarly, when the Absolute Truth is realized by the speculative process, he can simply understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by His effulgence as impersonal. And if you make further progress, then we can see... The same example. We are seeing the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place but if we make further advance, further, nearer, we see different thing. And when actually in the Himalayan Mountain, the thing is altogether different. Similarly, when you understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead from distance... Just like you cannot understand the sun globe from here. Although sunshine is light, sun globe is light, still we cannot understand what is sun globe from distant place.
So these are the statements in the śāstra about bhāgavata-dharma. Not that we accept Kṛṣṇa blindly as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a science. Bhāgavata-tattva vijñānam. But this vijñāna, this scientific knowledge, is understandable not by your imperfect speculation. You have to accept the proper method of understanding. That method is called bhakti. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa simply by speculation. That is not possible. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa simply by meditation. That is also not possible. If you actually seriously want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to take the process of bhakti. Jñāna-vairāgya yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. There is a statement, the Absolute Truth can be understood by bhakti, and that bhakti received through the aural reception of your ear. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that if you want to know a saintly person, you try to understand him by your ear, not by the eyes. You cannot understand a saintly person by staring your eyes, "Let me see what kind of..." No. That is not possible. Therefore śāstra says, bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. You have to understand the Absolute Truth by devotion. At the same time, śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta means taking information by hearing from the śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭhaṁ guru (MU 1.2.12), by hearing from the right source and with bhakti. Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. This is the process.
Devotee (1): If our seeing is imperfect we can see the change of body but we cannot see change, the transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupāda: You cannot see anything. Your power of seeing is so limited that you cannot see anything. Therefore you have to see through Kṛṣṇa, through Bhagavad-gītā. You are seeing the sun, it is like a disc. But when you see through astronomy, then you will understand it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the power of your seeing? Why you are so much proud of seeing? This is nonsense. Why do you go to school? To learn how to see. Why you can sit down, anyone who hasn't got, never has gone to school and never taken an education, his seeing and a perfect MA, Ph. D. person's seeing, is that all right, the same thing? Then why you are proud of your nonsense seeing? This will be the answer. You have to prepare your eyes to see. You have these, these eyes have no value. Your argument on the imperfect experience of the senses has no value.
So Kurukṣetra is from the Vedic age. Millions of years, from time immemorial, it is a dharma-kṣetra. And still it is there. There is a station, railway station, called Kurukṣetra near Delhi, about hundred miles away from Delhi. So these are facts. Why there should be interpretation? These are facts. Why there should be... It is clear. Dharma-kṣetra is... Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra, and historical fact is māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Two groups of cousin brothers, they wanted to fight to settle up. Formerly the war was declared—the leader of the war, if he is killed, then the other party is victorious. Not that unnecessarily killing the civil citizens, no. This was nonsense. If there was fight between two kings, the citizens, they were unaffected, not that there is fight now between two parties, there is immediately siren, (imitates siren:) gaw, gaw, gaw, gaw, now bomb and the civil..., the most uncivilized way of war. In those days—those days means at least five thousand years ago—they selected a place, and "Let us fight and decide our fate," kṣatriyas. Why the public should suffer? So in this way Kurukṣetra was selected to fight between the two parties. And still it is existing. It is a great field. And dharma-kṣetre... Just try to understand that there is no need of our imperfect comments on the Bhagavad-gītā. That is my point.
By these six opulences, one can ascertain what is God. What are those opulences? That He's the proprietor of all riches. Here, we have got experience, one rich man. One may be very rich man, but nobody can say that he is the richest, there is no other man who is not richer than him. Nobody can say. But Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, those who have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the history of Kṛṣṇa... We have described in our book, Kṛṣṇa. He had 16,108 wives. And each wife had a big palace, made of marble, bedecked with jewels, the furnitures made of ivory and gold. The descriptions are there. So in the history of the human society, you cannot find out any person who had 16,000 wives and 16,000 palaces. Not only that, it is not that He used to go to one wife's house one day, or one night. No. He was present in every one house personally. That means He expanded Himself in 16,108 forms. That is not very difficult. If God is unlimited, then He can expand Himself in unlimited forms; otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. If God is omnipotent, He can maintain 16,000. Why 16,000? He can maintain 16,000,000's still, it is imperfect. Otherwise there is no meaning of omnipotency.
We are not changing it. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Become My devotee. Always think of Me. Worship Me. Offer your obeisances unto Me." We are teaching all people that "You think of Kṛṣṇa always—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare." By chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you will always think of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). So our method is very simple. We don't manufacture any new method. Why new method? The old method is very perfect, authorized, accepted by great ācāryas. And they are, actually, are benefited. So why we shall manufacture? What is my brain? I am a teeny. We haven't got to manufacture, neither we can manufacture anything perfect, because I am imperfect. We can simply catch up the perfect things. Then we become perfect. That is our process. So Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect, His teachings are there in the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We are taking, accepting that. And we are preaching the same philosophy throughout the world, and they are accepting it, and I wish all of you who are present here will kindly accept this philosophy and make your life successful.
We are... Big, big scientists, philosophers, we are trying to understand the activities of the material nature. We cannot go beyond that. That is also very imperfect. Our understanding of this material nature, how it is working, how things are happening in a systematic way, how the sun is rising exactly in due course, due time, how it is setting—there are so many things we do not know. Just like we are trying to go the moon planet, but why we are becoming failure, at least, up to date? They say that there is no living entity in the moon planet, but here we find in the Bhagavad-gītā, nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ. The living entity is everywhere. At least, we find on this planet, even in deserted place, there are a certain type of vegetable. That is living entity. Sometimes some microbes. Sometimes insect. So the statement of Bhagavad-gītā is sarva-gataḥ: "Living entities everywhere." We practically see in our experience. We find living entities, the aquatics, in the water. We find living entities within the earth. There are so many insects. We find living entities in the air. We find living entities on the land, in the sky, and so many places. So this is confirmed: sarva-gataḥ. Nityaḥ. The living entity is eternal and he is everywhere. Sarva-gataḥ. Sthāṇur acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ. Sanātanaḥ. Concluding sanātanaḥ.
Yes. Therefore your material method is imperfect to detect where is the soul. The soul is there, and the dimension is also there: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of your hair. So you have no eyes to see. But soul is there; that is evident. But as soon as the soul is gone, this body—is beautiful body—is a dead lump of matter only. That distinction is there. Therefore we have to hear from the authority what is that soul. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is describing... First of all, He said that there is soul within this body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehaṁ dehī, deha. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... (BG 2.13). Because the soul is there, therefore we are changing different types of body. Just like because you are living, therefore there is coat and shirt. But if you are not living, what is the use of this coat and shirt? There is no question of coat and shirt. Similarly, because the soul is there, therefore the body has developed, according to the desire of the soul. But it is very, very minute. With our, these blunt eyes and blunt senses, we cannot capture. But there is. We have to conceive it from the authoritative statement of higher knowledge, knowledgeable person. Just like we are trying to learn from the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. It is being taught by Kṛṣṇa.
His business, coming down on this planet: to reestablish the religious principles. Dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. And what is that religious principle? The religious principle is not man-made. Just like we have manufactured so many religious principles: this is Hindu dharma, this is Muslim dharma, this is Christian dharma, and this is this, this is that. So many. Kṛṣṇa does not come to reestablish the principles of this man-made religion. No. He has nothing to do. Because they are manufactured, concocted by imperfect men, they are not religious principles. The religious system means, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the principles which is given by God Himself. That is religion. You cannot imagine. Just like I have already explained. You cannot make law at home, that "I am a big man. I make my own law." That you can do. You may go on amongst some of your friends or your servants, but that law will not be accepted by everyone. But the law given by God, that will be accepted by everyone. Just like law given by the state government is accepted by everyone. So religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. The principles of religion means which is given by God.
Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is dharma. We have created so many dharmas or duties, so-called duties, social duty, political duty, humanitarian duty, so many. But we are violating God. So many humanitarians, philanthropists, they are thinking of good welfare for the human being, but they are not thinking any welfare for the poor animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse under some plea. So they are all punishable because every living being is the son of the Supreme Person. Bhagavad-gītā says. We also address the Supreme Being, God, as "Father." Father means every one of us, we are sons. But we are disobedient son. One who is obedient son, he is perfect. One who is disobedient son, he is imperfect. Therefore we have to ask. Father is giving food even to the disobedient son. He is so kind. So God is always kind upon us. But we are suffering because we have forgotten God. This is our position. Therefore God comes, Kṛṣṇa comes, and teaches us Bhagavad-gītā, how to become God conscious, how to become obedient to God. And at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).
Those who are actually thoughtful, they should know these four principles of problem or unhappiness always in front. He should think that "I am trying to enjoy. I'm planning to enjoy this material world, but I have to die. I have to give up this body, at any moment. There is no guarantee that I shall live so many years. There is no guarantee. At any moment." Therefore the death has been described by Kṛṣṇa, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham. Mṛtyu means death, and sarva-haraś ca means one who take away everything. Sarva-haraś ca. "That is I am," Kṛṣṇa says, or God says. Those who are demons, those who cannot see God or feel the presence of God, they are called demons. So sometimes we hear they say, "Can you show me God?" Well, God is everywhere. God is within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). God is within this universe. God is within your heart. God is within the atom also. Now you have to make your eyes to see. Why do you say, "Can you show me God?" Have you got the eyes to see? Your eyes are imperfect. Why you are so much proud of your eyes? If there is no light, you cannot see, so what is the value of your eyes? So your seeing power is under certain condition. Therefore, if you want to see God, then you have to fulfill the condition.
So if we waste our time simply for being enlightened how to manufacture different types of foodstuff, how to take it on table and chair, nice dishes or plate, that is waste of time. If you utilize your time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is perfection of human life. Not to waste your time in the animal propensities of life. That is not education, that is not human form of life.
So that education will be complete if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is being taught in the Seventh Chapter by Kṛṣṇa Himself. What is that? Mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha: "You have to become always absorbed or attached on Me," on Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Āsakta means attachment. We have got attachment for so many things. We have got attachment for our family, for our country, for our society, for our business, for our cats, for our dogs, so many things. But we have no attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is lacking. Therefore life is imperfect. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
...because it is full of cheating, full of mistake, full of illusion, imperfectness, then how you can understand the thing or the person who is beyond your perception? That is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. This is Vedic instruction, that "Things which are beyond your perception, don't try to understand by this foolish argument and logic." Don't try to understand. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā. Acintya means beyond your conception. Cintya means within you perception, and acintya means beyond your conception. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa. You cannot understand by this rascal logic and philosophy. That is not possible. Then how it is to be understood? There are many places. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). These blunt senses, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's qualities, Kṛṣṇa's activities—you cannot understand. Then I have got this... This is my, in possession. How can I understand Kṛṣṇa? That is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord. Now, this is also another peculiar thing, that to understand by the tongue, not by the mind. Tongue. Tongue means we have got two businesses we perform with the tongue. One is tasting foodstuff and vibrating voice. So you use the tongue vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam-bas. Then you understand Kṛṣṇa. You don't understand, but He reveals.
Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.
Yes. No one is a perfect. Therefore you should take lessons from the perfect. That's all. Then you become perfect. Otherwise why there are instructions just like Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill"? That means "You are imperfect; therefore you are killing. Take my instruction. Don't do it. You become perfect." That's all. We are all imperfect. We have to take lesson from the perfect. Then we become perfect.
So Kṛṣṇa can be understood only by devotion. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So we have to take this process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. So our only request is that to understand Kṛṣṇa is not very difficult if we read Bhagavad-gītā perfectly, seriously. Then Kṛṣṇa is understood. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa... Because Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, what is the difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa? Hm? If you, Mr. Birla, you explain that "I am like this. I have got so much money, I have got so many business, I have got so many factories," if you explain, then where is my difficulty? But if I speculate, "Mr. Birla may be..., so much (indistinct) may be had." That is always imperfect. But if you understand directly from Mr. Birla, then it is clear. So Kṛṣṇa, God, is explaining Himself, "I am like..." Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). So there is not very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa if we simply... But if we interpret foolishly, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa by misinterpretation, then the business is finished. Don't do that. Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is explaining Himself, then your life is successful. How it is successful?
One who has actually seen or actually realized the truth, you have to take knowledge from there. So we have to approach such person. Otherwise, if we approach some speculator, we cannot get real knowledge. So those who are speculators, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they commit mistake that "God is like this," "God like that," "There is no God," "There is no form." All these nonsense things are proposed, because they are imperfect. Bhagavān therefore said, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). Because He comes for our benefit in the human form, the fools and rascals consider Him as ordinary person. If Bhagavān says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am the seed-giving father," so we, every one of us, we know that my father is person, his father is person, his father is person, and why the Supreme Person or the supreme father should become imperson? Why? And therefore we have to learn from Bhagavān, the Supreme Person, full knowledge. This Bhagavad-gītā is therefore full knowledge from the full Personality of Godhead. We cannot change even one word in this Bhagavad-gītā. That is folly.
So unless we come to the point of taking shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, our life is imperfect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes. He says ultimately that "My dear Arjuna, because you are My very dear friend, I am giving you the most confidential knowledge." What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is most confidential. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is the same because Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa reminded that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, but the duṣkṛtina mūḍha narādhama, they could not understand it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu came again as a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to teach how to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that—His mission is especially to the Indians, those who are born in India—that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). This instruction was given in South India when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was traveling in South India.
Departure Talks
There must be some cause. We do not accept anything as chance. No. There is no chance. There is cause. Everything has got cause. So the original cause is Kṛṣṇa. So our knowledge is perfect therefore. We know the cause. So you chant this mantra, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **, and you will be in full knowledge. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. In the Vedānta-sūtra, Vedic language, it is said, "If you know simply Govinda, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you know everything. All knowledge is perfect." So try to understand Kṛṣṇa; then all other categorical knowledge will be revealed. Spiritually, knowledge is revealed. By material senses we try to acquire knowledge, but that is always, remains imperfect. And if you receive knowledge from the original person, then your knowledge is perfect.
Yes. Perfect master. Even without becoming master He is providing everything. Even though those who do not accept Him, He is also giving them. So what to speak of those who have accepted Him? This is very simple philosophy. It is His position to accept service. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). It is good for the person who surrenders. Kṛṣṇa doesn't require your service. When He says, "You surrender to Me," it does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is suffering for your service. Kṛṣṇa is self-sufficient. He can create millions of servants like you. So He doesn't require your service. But if you serve, then it is your benefit. You become saved: "Now I am under the protection of a very able..." (break) ...and every respect, opulence of master. You are serving cats and dogs. Why not serve the most supreme, able and opulent master? This is going on. You have to serve. You cannot say, "No, no. I will not serve. I am independent." That is not possible. You have to serve. You have to serve, and you will be exploited, by the imperfect masters. So why not serve the perfect master so that you will not be exploited again? It is simple.
Philosophy Discussions
Hayagrīva: Oh, he says insofar as the soul is perfect it controls the body, but insofar as the soul is imperfect or its perceptions are confused, the soul is slaved by the passions arising out of corporeal representations.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: In other words, uh...
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā very nicely, that the soul is in this material world, and he is influenced by the three modes of material nature. So according to his position under the influence of three different kinds of modes, he is getting this body. It is on account of his free will. Just like if he wants to eat anything and everything up to stool, then he is given the body of a pig. If he wants to eat direct blood, sucking, then he gets the body of a tiger. And if he wants to eat first-class nutritious food, then he is given the body of a brāhmaṇa. In this way we are getting different types of bodies according to our desire. We are creating different types of desires, that "We shall be happy in this way, we shall be happy in this way." Just like we see practically, somebody is going to the restaurant, he thinks, "By eating here in restaurant I shall be happy." And somebody is going to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple, he is thinking that "I shall be happy by eating here." So Kṛṣṇa has given everyone the chance, but he is trying to be happy but he is not becoming happy, because he is misusing his intelligence, cent percent abiding by the orders of God; therefore he is suffering. As such, Kṛṣṇa comes personally and induces him that "You don't desire in this way. You give up all this material desire. You simply desire to act according My order, you surrender unto Me, and I will give you all happiness."
Hayagrīva: He says there are no entirely separate souls without bodies.
Prabhupāda: That is rascal. That means he is imperfect. How he can say so when we practically see that the soul is changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood? How he can say like that? He is transmigrating. That is, every day we have experience. How he can deny that? Otherwise, if he, if the soul does not transmigrate, then how the child becomes a young man? The body is different. The, this is simple understanding, that he has changed the body. The body changes and the soul remains eternal.
Hayagrīva: He further writes on this... He says, "There is strictly speaking neither absolute birth nor complete death consisting in the separation of the soul from the body. What we call birth is development or growth, as what we call death is envelopment and diminution."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is transmigration. That is transmigration. He hasn't..., he is not dead, but he has developed into another body. That is transmigration. Then why does he deny that?
Prabhupāda: That is not very important subject, unless there is willing. So that good or bad also has to be trained. The conditioned soul, anyone in this material world, he is in ignorance. It is called darkness. This material world is called darkness. Everyone, more or less, they are in darkness. The Vedas therefore say, "Don't remain in darkness. Go to the light." And the spiritual world is light. Just like day and night. Side by side there is day and night, or sunlight and darkness. So the Vedas say "Don't remain in darkness. Go to the light." So willingness in darkness is imperfect. So this willingness has to be dragged to the light. That requires superior help.
Śyāmasundara: What he is saying by that is just like if you see a soldier killing, you can't say that the action is good or bad, of his killing; but the will behind it—if his will is to serve the state—then the will is good, so the killing is good. But if you see the man killing someone on the street for his money, then you can say that the will is bad, so the killing is bad. So the action itself of killing is neither good nor bad, but the will behind the killing is what determines if an action is good or bad.
Śyāmasundara: He calls the end the moral law, the moral imperative.
Prabhupāda: That moral law is... What is moral in one circumstance is immoral in another circumstance. That means again imperfectness of idea.
Śyāmasundara: He calls the end the golden rule, that one should act...
Prabhupāda: That is simply abstract ideas. He does not give any concrete example.
Śyāmasundara: He gives the example of breaking a promise.
Prabhupāda: Breaking a promise is sometime moral. Just like Kṛṣṇa broke His promise, Himself. Kṛṣṇa broke His promise. He promised that "In this fight, this war, I shall not take a weapon." But when Arjuna was jeopardized by the fighting of Bhīṣma, He immediately took some weapon and approached Bhīṣma, because Bhīṣma promised that either Kṛṣṇa has to break His promise or Arjuna will die, two things... "Tomorrow I shall fight in this way, then Arjuna will die, unless Kṛṣṇa takes special step." That means He has to break His promise. So he wanted to see that Kṛṣṇa breaks His promise to protect His devotee. That was his idea. So when He broke His promise, he gave up fighting. "That was my purpose, that You have to break your promise to protect your devotee."
Kīrtanānanda: It is both, isn't it Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is both material and spiritual. In essence it is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Essence is spiritual, that's it. But my imperfect vision makes it material.
Śyāmasundara: His idea, too, is that everything has a purpose, the whole universe is rational.
Prabhupāda: Certainly, certainly. Those who do not agree to accept this, just like so many rascal philosopher, there is no purpose of life, chance, they are rascals.
Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that to understand this reality or this truth is that one must examine all relationships of everything to each other.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are teaching. That original is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's expansion in energy is everything. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Just like heat and light; practically whole physical existence is heat and light. So heat and light, there is a fire wherefrom the heat and light comes. Similarly two energies, heat and light, the spiritual and material, they are emanating from the fire, Kṛṣṇa, and everything is made of heat and light, material (indistinct). So one who has got to see, one has got the eyes to see, that is the spiritual, he can see it. And when he hasn't got the eyes to see, he thinks material.
Prabhupāda: The reconcile is the body is nothing and the spirit is something. This is synthesis. This is our proposal. The body is nothing, false, but I am real. But those who have no knowledge, they are taking one side. But we are taking two sides: this body is there, this is false, but it is temporary. Although I say I'm not this body, if somebody knocks me I feel pain. So this is temporary. Mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). Due to this body, I am feeling pains and pleasures. So the Buddha philosophy is you make this body nil, then there is no pains and pleasures. But that is imperfect. Because I am there, I will accept another body. So that, death does not mean liberation. Death does not mean liberation. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. You have to accept another body. Liberation means when you are no more in this material world, you go back to spiritual world, that is liberation.
Śyāmasundara: Then he describes world history to be the supreme tribunal or the higher judge of events. He says that what actually happens to a state or a people represents the final judgment as to the worth of a national policy or a course of action, that the history will bear out...
Prabhupāda: Alright, the state is imperfect; then there is no such question.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the history will bear out whether a policy is good or bad. For instance the Roman Empire came, and then it fell. So their policy is...
Prabhupāda: So we say that any empire will come, and fail. Without studying history. Because godless empire will never exist.
Śyāmasundara: He says that each state represents some phase of the absolute truth, that it expresses itself in the temporal events or the march of time.
Prabhupāda: We accept that without historical reference, we say unless one state or king is representative of God, that is not state. That is a group, that is not state. Just like even in aboriginals, they have also group. They have also group. That is not state. I think there must be some distinction...
Devotee: Tribe.
Śyāmasundara: Just like the state of California's morality may change. It may say gambling is legal tomorrow and then drinking is not legal.
Prabhupāda: Because that law is imperfect but God's law cannot be imperfect. That's perfect. Therefore we don't take others' advice. That is imperfect. We take God's advice because that is perfect. Or God's representative's advice, that is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: Then he says that the idea in and for itself expresses itself as the absolute spirit.
Prabhupāda: That means he is speaking the imperfect perfect. He is speaking from material platform. He has no spiritual platform.
Śyāmasundara: He says the subjective mind deals with inner experience, the objective mind deals with outer experience but the absolute mind deals with both, it unites them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is absolute, that we can (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: But according to the conditions, different conditions on this planet, natural conditions, certain animals...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he has not seen different conditions in different planets. Suppose the sun planet, the condition is fire. So how life can exist in the fire, he has no knowledge.
Karandhara: You point out in the introduction to Śrī Īśopaniṣad that deductive conclusions are always imperfect because you have to be able to deduce everything in order to come out to the right conclusion. Just like if you live in a village where everyone is only five feet tall, you may deduct that everyone in existence is only five feet tall; but if you go to the next village you may find someone six feet tall. So you have to search out every village and see every person before you...
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for you. How many millions of villages are there?
Śyāmasundara: No, but see, we're talking about two different things now. He is talking about the doctrine of natural selection or survival of the fittest...
Prabhupāda: But natural selection, that means that is not his selection. Natural selection.
Śyāmasundara: Terrestrial, archaeological findings...
Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not evidence. That is not evidence.
Karandhara: If you find a bone, how do you know it's not...
Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. You have studied one portion of the creation. That is not evidence. In other portion of the creation there is different. But that is not evidence. Your study, your limited study is not evidence.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the evidence posed by Darwin's theory is not enough to explain...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. I agree with that. It doesn't explain there is an evolution...
Prabhupāda: Evolution we accept. There is no quarrel about that point. But we say there are 8,400,000 species of life, evolution is coming through that. But you cannot give us any list that so many... We give real evolution, that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the living entity coming through that. (break) ...evolution is taking from here to here, and how many there are? You cannot say. You simply say "missing," "something missing," "something is added," all vague.
Prabhupāda: Not, not of the point of view. It is always there.
Hayagrīva: Oh.
Prabhupāda: But because we are imperfect, you are thinking like that, that individually we are imperfect. God is always there, and this cosmic manifestation is temporary creation. It is a chance to the individual soul to develop his consciousness, but if he does not take, again the annihilation, he remains in unconscious position, and when again there is creation he comes to consciousness. So this is going on.
Hayagrīva: He says, "If life realizes a plan, it ought to manifest a greater harmony the further it advances, just as the house shows a better and better idea of the architect as stone is set upon stone. If, on the contrary, the unity of life is to be found solely in the beginning in the impetus that pushes it along the road of time, the harmony is not in front but behind. The unity is given at the start as an impulsion, not placed at the end as an attraction." But he's...
Prabhupāda: So this can be utilized. Suppose an artist is trying to improve this building. So if he takes instruction from an experienced artist how to improve, then it becomes easier, and if he tries himself, it takes long, long time. He should take the artistic idea from a person who is perfect in artistic idea, then his work will make progress very swiftly. Otherwise he is already imperfect, he may think "This is better," but it may not be better because he is imperfect. So he has to take instruction from a perfect person, then the progress will be very swift.
Hayagrīva: We feel, we feel isolation as individuals, and not only is there isolation as individuals but we feel isolated on this planet. Man cannot communicate with beings on other planets.
Prabhupāda: That is his imperfectness. What is the use of having communications with other planet? The other planets are also like these. They are individual persons. So what is the utility of communicating with the other planets? What is the utility? What does he mean by it?
Hayagrīva: Well, man has always had a desire-basically it's a desire for God—but a desire to communicate with something outside of this world, outside of this earth, something higher.
Prabhupāda: The higher principle is there, Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. Why does he not communicate with Him? Then he will, that will make him perfect. What is the use of...? Just like that a tree, it has got many leaves, many branches. So if one leaf communicates with other leaf, that will not help him. But if water is poured on the root of the tree, then everyone will participate, sarva hano 'cyutejyā. So if we communicate with God, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically we understand other things. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa we can understand everything.
Śyāmasundara: Then using another example, that every apple on the tree will fall, but when it is ripe, it will fall to the ground. There is no man involved with that. What about that?
Prabhupāda: No. That is his imperfect vision. We say that God is everywhere. God is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu cayāntara-stham. God is present everywhere, even within the atom. Now the modern atomic theory, they will explain from atomic theory about the falldown of the apples. But we say that within the atom there is God; therefore God is the ultimate cause.
Śyāmasundara: What kind of test do we apply to phenomena to see what is the cause?
Prabhupāda: For every phenomenon there is a cause.
Śyāmasundara: But how do we determine that God is the cause behind everything?
Prabhupāda: Because then we know that God is the ultimate pusher, the pushing begins from there. So it may come through various agents. Just like one railway wagon is pushed by the engines, and it strikes another wagon and that is also pushed; another wagon, and that is pushed, that is also pushed. Similarly, the original pusher is the engine. Our study is like that, that the original, sa aikṣata, sa aikṣata... These are the Vedic... He glanced over, He desired; immediately there was creation. Therefore the original pusher is God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, how it is happening, that we cannot see. Just like same example, the wagon is already pushed, it is coming automatically. A child sees, "Oh, this wagon is coming automatically, and it caught another wagon, and it is now moved." He sees the (effect). But he did not see that ultimately there was a big engine that has pushed it.
Hayagrīva: This is John Stuart Mill. In his essay on nature Mill writes, "The order of nature, in so far as unmodified by man, is such as no being whose attributes are justice and benevolence would have made with the intention that his rational creatures should follow it as an example. It could only be as a designedly imperfect work which man in his limited sphere is to exercise justice and benevolence in amending." So Mill concludes...
Prabhupāda: In man dealing, not with any other living beings, only man.
Hayagrīva: Well man, Mill concludes that conformity to nature has no connection whatever with right and wrong, and that man must amend nature. He must not act according to nature, but must—the word he uses is "amend"...
Prabhupāda: Yes, amend. Not only amend. The nature, that we discussed, almost always, the nature is animal nature. But man must be above the animal nature. That is rationality. Normally a man is called rational animal, so he should advance in rationality. Just for eating, eating is common to the man and to the animal, but man should be advanced, what kind of eating it should be. Not only natural, although natural tendency is... Just like man, some of, not all, some of them want to eat meat. So rationality is that "If I have got better foodstuff, why shall I kill that animal?" This is then rationality. But because he can eat meat, he can kill animal, he should go on killing animal, that is less intelligence. God has given so many nice foodstuff. Take for fruits, there are varieties of fruits Kṛṣṇa has given to the mankind, and we can utilize milk in so many nice preparation. So the fruits are not eaten by the animals. The dogs, cats, they do not eat fruit. It is meant for human being, so similarly there must, discrimination is the better part of valor. Is that not English proverb? So man should have discrimination, and especially for eating. I think George Bernard Shaw wrote one book, You are What You are Eating.
Hayagrīva: Mill envisions God at war with evil, and man's role is in aiding or helping God in this war. He writes, "If providence, or God, is omnipotent, providence intends whatever happens and the fact of its happening proves that providence intended it. If so, everything which a human being can do, is predestined by providence, and is a fulfillment of its designs. But if, as is the more religious theory, providence intends not all which happens, but only what is good, then indeed man has it in his power by his voluntary actions to aid the intentions of providence."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Providence desires only good. The man, the living being, is in this material world on account of his imperfect will. God is very kind that even though he is willing imperfectly to enjoy this material world God is giving him a directed facilities. Just like a child wants to play in certain way, still the child is guided by some nurse, or some servant by, engaged by the parent. So our position is like that. We have come to this material world to enjoy, giving up the company of God. So God has allowed him, "All right, you enjoy and experience. When you will experience that this material enjoyment is not good, then you will again come back." So He is guiding the enjoyment of the living being, especially of the human being so that he may again come back to home, back to Godhead. And nature is the via media agent, under the instruction of God. So if he (is) too much addicted to misuse the freedom, then he is punished, and that is also according to his desire. It is not God's desire that a human being become a pig, but he develops such mentality to eat everything. So God allows him to do everything, to eat everything up to stool in the body of a pig. That is God's concession. But he wanted to eat all this nonsense abominable thing so God gives him the chance that, you take this body of a pig, you can eat up to steel, up to stool. You will not find any difficulty to eat stool.
Śyāmasundara: No. He says that a unified pattern of things, that the universe as a unified scheme, neat pattern of things, is false because our direct experience informs us of a discontinuity of facts. Our direct experiences sees discontinuity of facts, so we must conclude that the universe is comprised of facts which are not perfect in unity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are seeing the universe by your imperfect eyes. So it is your imperfectness. Just like you are seeing the sun planet just like a disc, but it is not a disc. But because you cannot see perfectly, you are thinking like that. So your conception of the universe is imperfect, because you are imperfect. Otherwise, everything is complete. Just like Īśopaniṣad, pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). It is complete. That is the first verse of the Īśopaniṣad. But because you are imperfect, you are seeing the universe and everything as imperfect. The universe, because it is made by God, it cannot be imperfect. God is perfect, and anything created by God is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that...
Prabhupāda: Because you do not see through the eyes of God—you want to see through your imperfect eyes-therefore you consider this universe as imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: Because he... Because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity. This is his criterion for truth, that only that which I can perceive is true, or which I can experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What you can perceive, that may be wrong thing also, because you are not perfect. But because you have got a poor fund of knowledge, therefore you are thinking that imperfect thing it is also perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that... This is a quote...
Prabhupāda: Just like in the śāstras it is stated that the human beings, they are being controlled by the modes of passion, so they love to work very hard. And that hard working, they think it is happiness. Actually, everyone is working hard day and night, and because he is getting some money in return, he is thinking that "I am becoming happier." In exchange of a little money he is accepting that hard working is very good. But śāstra says that this hard working for some sense gratification is being done by the hogs and dogs. They are also working hard, and getting some remuneration for food and sense enjoyment. So that business is there already. So does it mean that a human being also works so hard, as a hog, simply to get his food and sense gratification? Suppose a big builder is working hard and getting money. But what will be the result of his work? A little food and sense gratification. A beggar also, he's getting the little food and sense gratification. Then why he's happy working so hard? What is the use? That sense, it does not come to him. He thinks, "I am happy. I am happier than the beggar because I have got so much money, I have got such a big building." But what is in relation to you? You are eating the same four capatis and have your sex life with your wife, that's all. What is the better advantage you are getting than the hog and poor man? This is because he is in the modes of passion, he is thinking, "I am happier than him." This is called māyā, or illusion.
Śyāmasundara: So perhaps due to Darwin, these men, they don't think that truth exists independently of man's experience. They think that truth is developing as man evolves.
Prabhupāda: No. Because he is imperfect, he does not know what is truth. The same experience: because he cannot hear, other who is hearing is answering and he cannot hear him, so he thinks that he is dumb, deaf. Ātmavan manyate jagat. The difficulty is that everyone thinks others on his own standard. If a fool, he thinks others fool. So that is not the fact. We have to take experience from a person whose experience nobody can surpass. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni bhaviṣyāni (BG 7.26). He says that "I know past, present, future, everything." So who knows past, present, future, everything? Therefore we have to take experience from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa that "You taught this philosophy to the sun-god—how I am to believe this?" Because Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna thought that "Kṛṣṇa is my friend, my cousin-brother. He is of my age. How is that I can believe that He taught this philosophy to the sun-god." This was not for Arjuna. This question was raised for us. So Kṛṣṇa replied that "Both you and Me were present. We took many times appearances. But you have forgotten. I do not forget." That is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, ordinary living entity and God.
Śyāmasundara: He sees in our human conduct that we have the choice to make certain decisions, certain...
Prabhupāda: Decision means because you are imperfect, human beings are imperfect, so their machine, these motorcars, there are so many accidents, so many killing. But because God is so perfect, although all the planets are rotating in their speed, just like this earth is rotating... What is the speed? At least in twenty-four hours it is completing 25,000 miles. That means its speed is about 1000 miles at least. And similarly, other planets are also moving, similarly. And the sun planet is moving at 16,000 miles per minute or second, calculated. But all these planets are moving in this way, so much speed, but they are not colliding. The perfect arrangement is there, and they are floating. How it is possible? This is accidental? Do you think this is accidental?
Śyāmasundara: So would even accidents between two automobiles, that would not really be an accident?
Prabhupāda: Because it is imperfect, therefore there is an accident.
Śyāmasundara: Oh! It is an accident?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: That is not determined by any...
Prabhupāda: No.
Bhavānanda: That's not determined even by karma?
Prabhupāda: What?
Bhavānanda: It is not determined even by karma?
Prabhupāda: Yes. In higher sense it is also like that. That means from God's eyes even the so-called accident is also predestined.
Hayagrīva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders—the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad—but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's..., searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion-Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayoḥ. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brāhmaṇas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavān, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.
Prabhupāda: Samādhi means ecstasy, always in God consciousness. That is samādhi. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā (BG 6.47). The yogis means they are always remaining in meditation of the Supreme Lord. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā. Mind is always absorbed in God. That is samādhi. He has no other thought than God. So if we can continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is samādhi.
Hayagrīva: Now James equates this mystical union, or samādhi, to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: And he therefore concludes that mystical states cannot be sustained for long, except in rare instances. Half an hour or at most an hour or two seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. "Often, when faded, their quality can be but imperfectly reproduced in memory, but when they recur it is recognized, and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That richness comes to perfection when one thinks of Kṛṣṇa constantly, without any cessation. That is recommended in the yogic chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā:
- yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
- mad-gata āntarātmanā
- śraddhāvān bhajate
- yo māṁ sa me bhak...
- (BG 6.47)
Uh...
Hari-śauri: Yuktatamo mataḥ.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hari-śauri: Sa me yuktatamo mataḥ?
Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. You can find out that verse.
Śyāmasundara: ...to solve social problems.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Social problems... We have mismanaged social problems because Kṛṣṇa is perfect, so whatever He has created, that is perfect. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Iso Invocation). So everything is perfect, but because we want to disturb Kṛṣṇa by disobeying His order, things appear to be imperfect. (aside in Hindi) So if we remain faithful to Kṛṣṇa, there is no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So we are presenting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as the solution of all problems. Let any intelligent man come and discuss with us, and we think that we shall be able to convince him that this is the only suggestion. (Hindi aside with guest)
Śyāmasundara: He says that truth is useful and it is public and is objective, and it benefits to society, not merely the individual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That truth people do not know. The Bhagavad-gītā gives us information of that truth: na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). They do not know that the ultimate truth, ultimate objective is Viṣṇu. Without reference to Viṣṇu they are trying to solve the problems of the world differently. That is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we must continually make satisfactory adjustment; that things change...
Prabhupāda: That you cannot do, because you are hovering on the mental plane. And the mind is always imperfect, rejecting and accepting. So nothing will be standard. Your mind is accepting something, I am rejecting it. So on the mental plane you cannot come to the standard. It is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: He says that...
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
- indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir
- yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
- (BG 3.42)
We have to go, transcend the mental platform, go to the intellectual platform, then surpass intellectual platform, come to the spiritual platform. That is the process. (Hindi with guest) No. That is not sufficient.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the nature of existence is temporary and so we must make a constant revision to change things.
Prabhupāda: This nature is temporary, but there is another nature, sanātana. That he does not know. Paras tasmāt tu bhavo anyaḥ, 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). That is standardization. Sanātana means eternal. That does not change. It is neither created or annihilated. That is standard.
Śyāmasundara: His idea was that no philosophy can be fixed or finished or absolute, but that all ideas must be continually revised.
Prabhupāda: Because they have got imperfect philosophy. Imperfect is not perfect; therefore he is thinking of advancing further to make it perfect. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness he remains always incomplete; therefore imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that "All ideas must be tested in the laboratory of educational experience, where they can be challenged, their consequences evaluated, and where they can be continuously modified or reconstructed."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you see how Arjuna was perfectly good man, because he was Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was not willing to kill his enemy. He was hesitating, "What is the use of taking this kingdom?" This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because the other side, they were not thinking, but Arjuna, because he is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he was considering, "What is the use of taking this kingdom, by killing (indistinct)?" In other words, nobody can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No philosopher, no scientist, no sociologist can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: He can define, but he must be a very, what is called, sane man to define. The sane man's definition of God is there. Just like everyone says, "God is great." So now if he can define what is the greatness... The greatness, if one man is very rich, we consider him great man. If a man is very wise we call him a great man. If a man is very strong or influential or beautiful... Greatness according to our estimation. So all this greatness must be there in God. God must be the richest, God must be the strongest, God must be the most beautiful, God must be wisest. In this way, six opulences calculated, and when these opulences are in completeness, that is God. So that completeness we find in the history Kṛṣṇa. In the history of humanity it is very easy to find out that when Kṛṣṇa was present on this planet, so He proved the strongest, the most influential, the most beautiful, the supreme wise—everything—supreme famous. Kṛṣṇa's fame, fame is still going on. Kṛṣṇa's knowledge, stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, is still being studied all over the world. This is the proof that He is God. And all saintly persons in India, they are not controlled by these foreign Dr. Frogs. So these big, big ācāryas, like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Śaṅkarācārya, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, all big ācāryas, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. So there is complete uniformity of the authorities in the past, present and future. So here is God. If one cannot accept Him God, then he is insane. With so many evidences, and it is practical. Many evidences when Kṛṣṇa was present He showed; that is history. But these imperfect Dr. Frog, when they see God is doing something uncommon, they take it "Myth, mythology."
Śyāmasundara: He says that life is more than disappointment; it is a form of deception, and all human beings born into this world are condemned not to death but to life.
Prabhupāda: That we say, but we give also hope that in this way we shall be happy. Your life will be blissful. We say this is condemned life and this is blissful life. Come to bliss. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But he has no such knowledge. He is simply staying with the condemned side. He has no knowledge of the blissful side. Therefore he is imperfect. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānā. This kind of philosophy will be accepted by a man of his category: he is blind and another blind man will accept it, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: So tomorrow we will finish Schopenhauer. Today is finished. (break)
Prabhupāda: The will cannot be stopped. Therefore you have to reform your willing process. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: But later we find that he does believe in some kind of immortality, but he is talking about the (indistinct), or the (indistinct) of individuals that normally, on a normal level, they believe that the body will end or it will die at a certain time, so that they act in such a way with that in mind. And he calls that, that knowledge that I will die some day, that this creates anxiety or dread in the living entity.
Prabhupāda: So this is animal, animals' philosophy, that "I shall die." Then that very attachment, he is imperfect, that he dies. We do not agree that we will die. Actually that's not a fact, because in my life I can understand that I have existed as a child. So the body of child is not there, but still I am existing. Similarly, when this body will be finished, I'll exist. So I exist eternally. I shall not die. That is the philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the essence of the human being is in his existence. That is that there are numerous kinds of...
Prabhupāda: His idea of existence is: from birth to death. Not beyond death. He did not exist before his birth, and he'll not exist after his death. So his existence means from the point of birth up to the point of death. So that is not very good philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: It is calculation, but there's no...
Prabhupāda: Relative knowledge, because we cannot know beyond 180 degrees according to your geometrical calculation. But your calculation, everything is imperfect because you are imperfect. So because it is going on, for our purpose we take it as truth. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: It's only working in two planes, or two dimensions.
Prabhupāda: Just like this body. This body, I can say is false, but suppose somebody kills somebody, he cannot argue that it is a false thing. If it is killed, why the state should by so much anxious about it if it a false? No. Even it is temporary, even if it's false, but it has got temporary use. You cannot disturb that use.
Śyāmasundara: He says that propositions pertaining to metaphysical realities such as we have been talking about, like the soul, he says they are neither chronological, that is uninformative assertions, neither are they empirical propositions. So it is impossible to demonstrate either their validity or to verify them.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Śyāmasundara: Statements like "the soul," "I am the soul."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: We can neither say that is valid or invalid, neither we can say it is...
Prabhupāda: It is valid. It is not invalid, it is valid. You cannot understand it. Try to understand it. It is valid. "I am the soul," that's a valid proposition. How you can say invalid?
Śyāmasundara: So what he is saying is that because you can't see the soul after it leaves the body, therefore we cannot say if the soul exists or does not exist.
Prabhupāda: But why does he believe of his eyes so much? Why does he not accept that his eyes are so imperfect that he cannot see the soul?
Śyāmasundara: Either directly or indirectly he says that we have to be able to prove...
Prabhupāda: No. The same example, just like a man has committed murder and he is arrested and taken away. So others, they know that this man will be hanged. And one was, "Oh, I have not seen, so how he is hanged?" But that is foolishness. The state law says that if a man has committed murder he will be hanged. So you have to see through the law, not with your eyes. The nonsense eyes, what can they see? So see through knowledge, through books.
Devotee (2): (indistinct) the fire is extinguished.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) taken him out of the fire, then he is ...
Devotee: But his one point is that Freud's theory underwent many changes. In the beginning...
Prabhupāda: Then (indistinct) because that is imperfect.
Devotee: His first doctrine was that we should indulge the senses, that this would help, but later he reformed that idea, that instead of indulging the gross senses we should sublimate our natural instincts to some higher cause. So his idea was that instead of actually indulging in gross sex life, we should channel this sexual impulse to some higher cause, such as for developing the culture.
Prabhupāda: That we have explained by quoting Śrī Yamunācārya's verse, that "Since I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whenever I think of sexual intercourse, my mouth becomes deformed and I want to spit."
Devotee: Freud would say that whatever talents you have, use them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But Freud says if somebody has the impulse to kill, he should become a surgeon. If somebody has the impulse to stab someone, then he should be directed to become a doctor and a surgeon, and then by that same cutting...
Devotee (2): This is still a limited conception of what...
Prabhupāda: Then all murderers should be sent to medical college to become surgeons instead of condemning them. Why not?
Devotee: Or put them in the army.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Devotee: They do not like that now. They recruit for the army from the prison.
Devotee (2): (indistinct)
Devotee: But we have the higher...
Prabhupāda: To some extent that is all right, because therefore the kṣatriya race is there, the fighting spirit.
Prabhupāda: That means Freud is a most imperfect person. He is taking sex as very important thing, which the dog enjoys. As a dog's life and a hog's life, the hog has got very good facility. The monkey has got very good facility for sex life, and he is thinking this is ultimate goal, and then sleep. So that is going on. So if sex life is so big thing, the hogs, they have got good facility. The pigeons, they have got very good facility. I think every hour they have four times sex life, these pigeons. So if that is, then you become a pigeon. You pray to God that "Make me a pigeon, make me a hog." Why you are becoming philosopher? Now our philosophy is different—not to become a pig. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). The life simply for sense gratification, and for that purpose working so hard, but that is the business of the pig. That is not the business of the human being. Human being is tapasya. Tapasya means stop sex life. That is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). So our philosophy is different from his philosophy. And actually we are suffering. The pig has got good facilities for sex. Does it mean that is ideal life, eating stool and having sex without discrimination? They have no discrimination, whether mother or sister or daughter. That is hog life. So if sex life is final pleasure, then hog is in the greatest pleasure. He has no social obligation. He has no discrimination. But our philosophy says "Don't become a hog, become a sane man." There, there, there is a difference between his philosophy and our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Man cannot do without education. Without education a man remains an animal. Therefore in the human society there is a school, college, an institution, teacher—not in the animal society. So the principle is, the man is meant for being learned or being educated. That you cannot deny, that man life should not be like cats and dogs, simply eating, sleeping, mating, and dying. That is not man's life. Man's life is to become advanced in knowledge and education. And as I have already described, the ultimate knowledge: to understand God. If he is so-called educated, without any understanding of God, then his education is imperfect. You can deny the existence of God, but the God conception is there in the human society. Some may accept it, some may not accept it—that is another thing—but the conception of God, the whole civilized world, they have got some type of religion. Either you become Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, religion means there is some cultivation of knowledge to understand God. And to understand God is the ultimate knowledge. That is called Vedānta. Veda means knowledge, and the ultimate knowledge: Vedānta. So ultimate knowledge, it, what is that? That is the beginning of Vedānta education. What is that ultimate knowledge? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta begins with this word, "Now this human form of life is to acquire the ultimate knowledge." Athāto brahma. Brahma means the ultimate. So, the absolute. Now it is the time to understand. So far understanding of sex, the dog also knows. You don't require to give him any education. So nobody is given education... Now of course they have adopted, but there is a Bengali proverb, "How to cry and how to enjoy sex, it doesn't require any education." When you are aggrieved, you cry automatically. When there is a sex impulse, you enjoy it automatically. It doesn't require any Mr. Freud. Without the help of any educator, everyone knows-cats, dogs, animals, human being—everyone knows how to enjoy sex life. It doesn't require any education.
So the Vedānta says that this kind of education is there in the animal kingdom also, sex philosophy. There is no question of philosophy, it is already there; anyone can enjoy it. Now, at this time, atha ato brahma-jijñāsā, now this human life is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, Brahman, because that is the ultimate knowledge. This ultimate knowledge can be acquired by the human being, not by the cats and dog. So if a philosopher, without any knowledge of God, doubtful knowledge of God, so he is imperfect, he is not even human being. He is cats and dogs. (break) God means supreme controller. So everything we see is controlled. The government is controller, but the supreme controller there must be. That's a fact. Now, if you want to know it clearly, then be educated. That is Vedānta. That is very reasonably said, that "What is that Brahman, God?" Immediately answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). God means, the Absolute Truth means, Brahman means from whom everything has emanated.
Śyāmasundara: So he is seeing the external features and he is saying...
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is imperfect. He has no perfect vision. His philosophy is not very sound. He can be classified, according to Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ: one who gives importance to the external features; one who has no eyes to see the internal potency.
Śyāmasundara: So because the living entity is so much changing that he doesn't have any one thingness, therefore, he says the living entity is nothingness.
Prabhupāda: No. He has his identity, but in the present circumstances, because he is conditioned by the matter, therefore he is changing, and when he becomes free from the condition, he will have no change.
Śyāmasundara: Is he in fact a thing?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Otherwise how it is changing? Unless we have got some basic principle, how we can account for the change, on which platform the change is taking place?
Śyāmasundara: So the nature of a living being is that he is actually a thing.
Prabhupāda: He is the actual thing. The changing feature is not actual, because it is changing. But the principle on which the change is taking place, he is actual fact, so he cannot be nothing. These imperfect philosophers, they have no eyes to see. They have no eyes to see, and they are not very intelligent; therefore they conclude like that.
Śyāmasundara: He says that matter is something and that the living being is nothing.
Prabhupāda: No. That is his nonsense. He has no perfect knowledge. If matter is something and the basic principle on which the matter stands, it is nothing, that is the most imperfect statement. These are all nonsense philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we are condemned to be free.
Prabhupāda: Who has condemned you? (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: He denies the existence of God.
Prabhupāda: Then who has condemned you? As soon as you say you are condemned, there must be somebody who has condemned you.
Śyāmasundara: He says it's an accident.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. By accident somebody is condemned and somebody is blessed. This is all nonsense. By accident somebody is put into jail and by accident somebody is hanged? Is there any experience like that? That is a judgment. When a man is condemned, that means it is done by some living judgment. So how is this accident? These are all imperfect knowledge, misleading. There is nothing an accident.
Śyāmasundara: He says that all living entities are condemned to be free, everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we can admit. Anyone who is in this material world, he is condemned. But the next question will be, if one is condemned, then he can be blessed also. The other side of condemnation is blessing. So what is the blessing side? Has he got any knowledge of the blessing side? Then he is imperfect. As soon as you say condemned, there must be blessing. So he does not know what is the blessing side. That he takes as nothing. That is nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot escape this situation of freedom, that somehow or other we are therefore responsible for our activities. We cannot escape the situation of being free. Everyone is free to determine what is his future.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak of accident? If you are irresponsible, then why do you say accident? The two things cannot go. If he was responsible, he must be responsible to something else, who is condemning you or blessing you. How it can be accident? These are contradictions.
Śyāmasundara: He says in a type of understanding that is direct, such as "This snowball is white," that there is no possibility of error because there is no distinction between what a thing seems to be and what it is in reality.
Prabhupāda: No. That is called direct perception. So direct perception is not perfect. It is no... Just like I see the sun (indistinct), but I see just like a disc. But it is not a disc. Therefore my direct perception of the sun is imperfect. When we go to scientific book, astronomy, then you can understand that it is so great, fourteen hundred lakhs, or fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than the earth. So this my direct perception, it has no value.
Śyāmasundara: What about the knowledge, for instance, "This snowball is white"? Isn't that a direct fact, this understanding by everyone?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The snowball is white, but it may be mixed up (indistinct) white. That is also very (indistinct).
Dr. Rao: Snowball is actually colorless. It is not white.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes we see seven colors on the snowball. It is white. It is sunshine reflected there.
Dr. Rao: White light. You see white light, but white light is composed of seven colors: violet, indigo, blue, you know, (indistinct) and green, yellow, orange and red. So, but you are seeing white. (indistinct).
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect.
Dr. Rao: That is imperfection.
Prabhupāda: So therefore it is concluded that direct perception is always imperfect. (laughter)
Devotee: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: His belief for..., the criterion for truth is called the correspondence theory, that a belief is true if it agrees with the facts with which it is supposed to correspond.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example, we see the snow as white, but it is..., does not correspond with the fact. Therefore it is not knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have repeatedly said.
Devotee: The reason he built the box, he could not control the environment.
Prabhupāda: No, no, box, you are speaking box, (indistinct) different box. That is another thing. But the perfection is required.
Devotee: His supposition of being able to control the environment completely is imperfect, because he can't control the environment perfectly. Even if he builds his child a box, what if there is a fire in the house and the box burns down? How he can control that environment?
Śyāmasundara: Right now, the level of their experiments are relatively small. For instance, they have created teaching machines where a child is put in front of the machine and a question is asked, and if the child answers it correctly he gets the reward.
Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. The thing is that the Vedic conception of raising children, brahmācārya, that system is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: Not by machine.
Prabhupāda: No, this is (indistinct). We are not machines.
Prabhupāda: That is not (indistinct). A new way we cannot. If you want perfection, you must take to Vedic culture, because it is not with the four defects of human beings. Anything introduced for... Just like we are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and some of the students are falling back. How (indistinct)? That is not the defect of the institution. That is some other power. So people might have fallen from the standard of Vedic culture, but they cannot invent any new one. That is it.
Devotee: That is the same thing we say about the scientific process. The scientific process isn't imperfect, it is just the masters who are imperfect. They claim that the empiric process is perfect. We have not developed it to perfection.
Devotee (2): For instance, they would say if our students are falling back, that is because of the environment.
Prabhupāda: They are not falling back. Some of them (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Some of them...
Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct) anyway.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that ideally, if our environment was conditioned in such a way that they were rewarded for doing good things and punished for doing bad things, that they would not go away.
Prabhupāda: They would be punished, but they don't care for punishment. Just like it says in the lawbook that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, the thief. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then what can you do? Punishment is already there.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.
Prabhupāda: Well, your senses are not reality.
Śyāmasundara: And economic determination.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes... You are thinking "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?
Śyāmasundara: He says whatever is useful...
Prabhupāda: Useful, useful... So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?
Śyāmasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.
Prabhupāda: That's all... They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only the by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses.
Hayagrīva: Well the basic difference is that Marx believes that there's nothing spiritual; everything is material. He says, "An incorporeal substance is just as much a contradiction as an incorporeal body."
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance, because this body is dead. That what is the difference between the dead body and the... The same Marx and same Lenin was lying, but because there is no spirit sould it was considered as dead. This is imperfect understanding of the man, of the body. Otherwise, I mean to say, man of sense studies there must be a spiritualism and materialism. Spiritualism..., spirit means the force behind the matter. It can be understood very easily that matter as it is, it is inactive. A machine may be very well made, but without a person, a living being, the machine is useless. So that is the difference between spirit and matter. Matter can be active only in touch with the spirit. Similarly, the body is active when there is soul within the body. This can be easily understood, unless one is very dull. Spirit cannot be denied.
Prabhupāda: There is not the question of antagonism. If we actually know who is God and what He desires... I give always this example: if we know the government and the government laws, then there is no antagonism. The government says that "Keep to the right," so there is no question of antagonism; anyone must keep to the right. So there is no question of antagonism. But the antagonism is there when the so-called religious system does not know what is God and what is actually the desire of God. Then there cannot be any antagonism. That perfectness of understanding God and God's regulation or order is clearly described in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are therefore advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "Here is God and here is God's instructions." So if we deliver it, and the proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā, they are all practical. Just like God says that you divide the society in four division—not only worker, but also the good brain, good administrator, and good producer of food. That is the actually the divisions of the society. So without division of the society, if you simply keep worker, who will give them instruction to work? These are all imperfect ideas. But the perfect ideas are given in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we follow that, then the human society, humanity will be in perfect order. So either you call it religion or a system to..., following which one can become peaceful. Religion means, to understand God means, a system. A system is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in three principles. God says that He is the proprietor of everything, sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). So we see this planet, and there is different proprietors-individual proprietor of the land or the state proprietor, the king. So there is a proprietor of this earth, either you divide it nationally or you take it wholly. So similarly there are many, many millions of others, so they are called sarva-loka.
Hayagrīva: Well he would rather do..., do away with the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is impossible. God means, as I have explained, the supreme father. He is the father of every man or every living entity. So how the father can be different? If man manufactures a different... There are ten sons in the family; the father is one. It is not that one son say, "No, I shall select my own father." So what kind of father he is? So that is imperfectness of understanding the father. Nobody can say that "I can select my own father." How it is possible? Father is one. Similarly God is one, and if one is actually religious and obeying the same one father's order, then where is dissension? That the difficulty is nobody knows who is that supreme father, neither they are prepared to obey the orders of the father. That is the difficulty. In one family there cannot be two father. The one father. Similarly, when you speak of the supreme father, "O father, give us our daily bread," He is father of everyone. So why one should select one father, another man will select another father? That means he does not know who is father. That is the defect.
Śyāmasundara: Well, speaking more of, for instance, Marx's theory, that...
Prabhupāda: Now, first of all... He said scientific. So I mean to say that so-called scientists are imperfect. So what is the value of such scientific statement? There are so many scientists. Their statements are imperfect. Or other scientists differ. Then what is real scientific? You are scientist and he is scientist. I am talking on the scientific... Experiment. He says experiment. So when a scientist says that "This is wanting," then by experiment let him prove it that actually this is wanting.
Śyāmasundara: Well, still, his basic idea is that all theories, all natural laws are proven in practice, social practice, that... For instance, Marx's idea that capital is not necessary for production, that profit is not necessary for production. It's proven by the communist state where there is no profit-taking, there is no capital making, and still the wheels(?) of production go on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that sense is by nature's law. But artificially we have adopted so many things. That means, nature's law means God's law. So God's law is that you have got land. You till and you get production. But if you cannot till personally, then you have to employ somebody else. So you have to pay him. Therefore you must require profit.
Revatīnandana: But Mao will say that the Russian Communism is religionism, that it is not real Communism. Therefore they are unhappy.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. The Russian Communism is failing; similarly, some days after, his communism also will fail. Because they are all imperfect. To criticize another man does not mean you are perfect. That is a different thing. You have to prove that you are perfect. "Judge not others lest you may be judged."
Devotee: "Lest ye be judged and found wanting."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is not Mao is a very perfect man, his theory is perfect, he is better than... It is simply mental speculation.
Śyāmasundara: But he examines his theory, and he sees that the nature of his theory or the nature of things is this conflict. This is the nature of things.
Prabhupāda: That we have already talked; there is conflict. Conflict is going on.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that there are two types of conflict in social structure. One is between communists and their enemies, such as the U.S. imperialists; and those within the Communist party itself.
Prabhupāda: So... There... In communism... That means there are enemies. However perfect you may be, you have got enemies. Outside, inside both. Then what is your perfection?
Śyāmasundara: So the whole idea is to make the whole world Communist and there won't be any more enemies.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why the world... First of all, why the whole world will accept this Communism unless it is perfect? If it is imperfect, how do you expect that the whole world will accept it?
Śyāmasundara: He says that it is perfect, but there may be some conflict within the party because someone has not understood the philosophy perfectly.
Prabhupāda: Or perhaps you have not understood your philosophy; therefore you are so much optimistic.
Revatīnandana: He says there will be struggle against the opposing side. It will overpower the opposing side, make everything communist, and then by interaction of...
Prabhupāda: That is in every sphere. Why communist?
Śyāmasundara: He has another slogan to resolve conflicts within the party of "Unity, criticism, unity." A dialectic. "Unity, criticism... The thesis is unity, the antithesis is criticism..."
Prabhupāda: Then what is his reply to this dialectic proposition, that I say that "You, Mr. Mao, you are not independent. You are controlled."
Revatīnandana: They don't accept anymore. There is Mao...
Prabhupāda: Similarly, sometimes after, he will not be accepted. That is my proposition. As Russia is not accepted now, some days after, he will not be accepted. Similarly, your also theory will fail. That is my proposition. Because I challenge that your theory is not perfect. Because Russia's theory was not perfect, it has failed. Similarly, I say your theory is also imperfect, therefore it will fail. Anything imperfect will fail. That is my proposition.
Revatīnandana: His propaganda is that it is perfect because it has made the Chinese people...
Prabhupāda: Propaganda, by propaganda you can do anything. That is different thing. But fact is fact. If you theory is not perfect, you make however propaganda, it will fail.
Śyāmasundara: But our people are all employed, they are all clothed nicely...
Prabhupāda: Temporarily it may be very glittering. Just like a polished thing, temporarily it looks very brilliant, shine. But in course of time it will become black. That's all. Because it is not actually shining. Gold shining and artificial shining, there is difference.
Śyāmasundara: Well, because the capitalists are...
Prabhupāda: That is bias. Your people also become capitalist. Why Kruschev was driven away? Because he was becoming... So because you are all imperfect, you think in a different way, but ultimately you will find that it is useless. Childish. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: Now they are making friends with the capitalist materialists. The capitalist materialists were flown to Peking recently to save Mao Tse Tung's life because he was dying of a major heart attack. So they called a major scientist from America to help save his life. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Revatīnandana: Now they have invited the American president to come there for talks. The imperfect one, they are inviting to talk with him now for some compromise.
Prabhupāda: This is described in Bhāgavata: punah punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), "chewing the chewed." Once it is chewed, it is thrown away, and then again, "Let me see if there is any juice." (laughter) Chewing the chewed. Or in plain words, mental concoction. The mind's business is acceptance and rejection. First of all, reject American capitalists; then again accept for consulting. That means they are hovering on the mental plane. They have no intelligence. In big scale, accepting and rejecting. That's all. It is the business of the mind. As in your personal mind you see, you accept something immediately and again reject, "No, no, it is not good." The same thing is going on in a bigger scale. That's all. They are not... Just like a pickpocket and a big scientific thief. Huh? They are trying to... Modern, scientifically, they want to rob the bank. They set the bomb. And pickpocket is satisfied by taking one paisa from your pocket. But the principle is stealing. Because you are very organized thief, it does not mean from the eyes of the law you are honest. You cannot say in the court that "I am organized thief. I am scientific thief, and he is a pickpocket." In the eyes of the law you are also punishable, he is also punishable. That's all. So they are, I mean to say, large-scale speculators. That's all. But it is, after all, speculation. It has no fact.
Revatīnandana: Or if I am perfect, then why do I have to submit to imperfection?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means actually I am not perfect. Therefore what qualification have I got to give truth?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot give. You are cheating only. Because you are imperfect, but you are giving ideas to people. What right you have that you are teaching?
Revatīnandana: Suppose he says, "Yes, it's true, I will die. We all will die. I am just giving a formula for now until I die. Until we die, then we will do like this."
Prabhupāda: Then all will die. Those who will follow, he will also die, they will also die. So first of all, stop yourself from death.
Revatīnandana: They will say "That cannot be done."
Prabhupāda: Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?
Revatīnandana: They will say "That cannot be done."
Prabhupāda: Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?
Pañcadraviḍa: Also his (indistinct) that "If we are imperfect, how can we govern?" Their whole slogan, Communist slogan is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." How can you get from a person according to his ability and how can you give according to his needs? If all the time there are the four errors of cheating propensity and so many other factors of imperfection are there, how can you possibly take a person and treat him as an individual and expect to have any kind of a reasonable conception of what he is capable of doing? (end)
Śyāmasundara: And he sees also in the same way two types of religion. He sees the static religion and he calls this static religion "myth devised by human intelligence as a means of defense against the depressing experiences of life. Being fearful of the future, man attempts to combat his fate by constructing religious myths."
Prabhupāda: Just that... Anything created by human being, that is not acceptable. We do not follow that principle. Because a human being is always imperfect. So we cannot take anything manufactured, myth, by any human being. We take directly from God. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). The religious principles, they are given directly by God. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "This is religion: surrender unto Me." This is religion. It is not man-manufactured. Man is manufacturing, "Oh, this is my type of religion. It is Muhammadanism." "This is Hinduism." "This is Christianism." All these isms, they are imperfect, man-made. But this is perfect. This is perfect because it is given by God Himself. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat... (SB 6.3.19). Very simple thing. "You surrender unto Me." That's all. So any religious system which leads the follower to this point, surrendering to God, that is religion. Otherwise bogus. Real religion is this, surrender to God. So any system of religion, it doesn't matter whether Hinduism, Christianism, Muhammadanism, if it teaches ultimately surrender to God, then that is perfect religion. Otherwise it is not religion.
Śyāmasundara: How does this fit in with what I was just saying about institutions such as laws, things like that. They can participate in the purpose of the universe, in bringing out the purpose of the universe. I make a law that you shall not kill, does that participate...
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot make law. Law can be made by God. You have to abide by the law. You cannot (indistinct), you are imperfect, how you can make law? Your law will be imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: The state cannot make laws to (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: State is (indistinct) because we have no other experience beyond the state. But the state also, according to Vedic civilization, state means he must be king. King must be representative of God. So king is therefore called naradeva. That we have discussed in the matter of Pṛthu Mahārāja. So king is supposed to be representative of God and he has to execute his royal authority by direction of God. The brāhmaṇas and the sages, they give him direction. These things are being very thoroughly discussed when Pṛthu Mahārāja in the Fourth Canto. That is civilization.
Hayagrīva: Yet we concentrate on the personality of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But that is..., that requires little brain. Those who are less intelligent or those practically no brain, simply cow dung, for them it is little difficult. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to cleanse this cow dung and make the brain pure. Then he will understand. Otherwise he is thinking God, "A person like me." But God is not like that. God is goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto (Bs. 5.37). He is person. He is in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He is dancing with gopīs, playing with the cowherd boys—still He is everywhere. Not that "Now I am dancing I have no time to go everywhere." That is not. He may be engaged in dancing, but still He is everywhere, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-de... (BG 18.61). Now if He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana only, a person like us, then how He can say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā (BG 9.26)? We are offering some dates to Kṛṣṇa, so He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He may say, "I am now busy. How can I go to your temple and eat?" No. He is also temple, in the temple also. That is God. He is everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto (Bs. 5.37). This is definition, akhilātma-bhūto. So he has no conception of God. He cannot imagine God. He must take the understanding... (break) ...because they have no standard knowledge. Everyone is manufacturing, so then there must be difference, because everyone is imperfect. You propose something imperfect, I propose something imperfect, so there must be disagreement.
Hayagrīva: As far as seeming contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered these as stumbling blocks allowed by God to exist in order for man to go beyond the literal meaning. He says, "In some cases no useful meaning attaches to the obvious interpretation, but everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning."
Prabhupāda: Literal... Generally, every word in the scripture there is literal meaning, but one who cannot understand properly because one does not hear from the proper person, he makes some interpretation. But there is no need of interpretation in the words of God. It may be that the words of God sometimes cannot be understood by ordinary person; therefore he requires to understand through the via-media of transparent guru. Guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God. One has to accept, therefore, a guru to go through the scripture properly. Generally there is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our lack of perfect knowledge we sometimes cannot understand and try to interpret. But this is, this interpretation is not at all feasible, because imperfect person interpreting means whatever he interprets, that is imperfect. So the proper import of the words of scripture or words of God should be understood from a person who has realized God.
Hayagrīva: So he concludes we must obey God rather than men, in terms of laws.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We can obey such man who obeys the laws of God. Otherwise they..., it is useless to obey an imperfect person. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). To obey the imperfect person means just like a blind man following other blind man. So what benefit he will get? If one blind man is begging help from others, "Please help me in crossing the road," if another blind man comes and he says, "Yes, come on with me," so what will be the result? Both will be crushed by accident. So any, any person who does not follow the instruction of the Supreme Controller, he is a blind person. He cannot lead. As we are concerned, we therefore don't accept the so-called scientist's or philosopher's belief. They say, "We believe," "Perhaps it may be like this." These are all doubtful declaration. There is no truth in it. If there is any truth, that is also doubtful. Why should we risk our life by following such blind man who is thinking, who is believing, but he has no clear knowledge? Therefore we have decided to take lesson from the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa, who knows everything perfectly well. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). He knows past, present and future, and what is our benefit, welfare, everything. So we should follow Kṛṣṇa instead of so-called blind philosophers.
Hayagrīva: So he concludes that Divine revelation is absolutely necessary, because by the philosophical method very few men could arrive at the truth, and only after a long time and many errors.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. The so-called philosophers, they are imperfect, so there is no need of consulting them. Our path is that you directly contact the Supreme Person in knowledge, who has got complete knowledge—Kṛṣṇa—and we take His instructions and try to follow Him.
Hayagrīva: This knowledge based on revelation or scripture is called sacred doctrine or scripture. He says it, this scripture, "does not provide information about God and about creatures in equal fashion, but about God principally and about creatures as they are related to God as to a source or to an end. Hence the unity of the science is not ended." So scripture for him is the science of God.
Prabhupāda: This is science of God.
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Well why invisible?
Hayagrīva: Invisible.
Prabhupāda: Why? Invisible...
Hayagrīva: Invisible...
Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa says, Kṛṣṇa came, He was visible, and Arjuna was talking with Him face to face. So why is unvisible? If He likes, that is His..., that depends on His good will. He becomes visible to a competent or perfect person. He is visible. Just like Arjuna was talking with God, not only visible, was talking face to face. He was asking question, and Kṛṣṇa was answering. So one has to become qualified like Arjuna to..., then he will see Kṛṣṇa, or God, and he will talk with Him, he will get direct instruction. There is no difficulty. So He is not visible to the imperfect person, but He is visible to the perfect person. But He is not at all invisible.
Hayagrīva: Well, that's all on Hobbes. (end)
Hayagrīva: Concerning the soul, Descartes concludes that...
Prabhupāda: Now in this connection, regarding the soul, if he has received the knowledge of soul from God, therefore at that time there is no chance of he is thinking. If, as soon as he thinks in his own way, then there may be mistakes, because he is imperfect, finite. But when Kṛṣṇa says directly that "Within this body the soul is there," so if we accept God's instruction, then immediately we understand that the soul is different from this body. Exactly just like if somebody inquires, "Where is Prabhupāda?" If somebody says that "He is in this room," it does not mean this room is Prabhupāda; Prabhupāda is within this room. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that this, the owner of the body, the soul, is within this body. So immediately the false impression that "I am this body," the fool's conclusion, immediately it is eradicated. The light is there, but he will not accept. He wants to continue to live as a fool and speculate and waste time and con..., give conclusion in so many ways, so many rascal jugglery, "The living force is like this, like that, like that." But Kṛṣṇa gives instruction immediately that the living force, soul, is within this body; he is not this body. And He gives complete instruction on this at... He says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) "This soul is never killed even the body is killed." This is knowledge. In spite of this knowledge, if somebody sticks to his foolish theories, then he remains animal.
Prabhupāda: In the heart of the brute also there is God.
Hayagrīva: "If they could think as we do, they would have an immortal soul as well as we, which is not likely because there is no reason for believing it of some animals without believing it of all, and there are many of them too imperfect to make it possible to believe it of them, such as oysters, sponges, etc." Is thinking a necessary function of the soul? He says, well for instance an oyster. How does he know whether or not an oyster thinks?
Prabhupāda: God is there giving him. God is, gives us instruction that we will advance, human being. We refuse, but they do not refuse.
Hayagrīva: You've said that anything that grows has a soul. The grass has a soul, has soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In dormant state.
Hayagrīva: Dormant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just as child has soul, but it is not yet..., the body has not yet developed. According to the body, according to the circumstances, the soul acts.
Hayagrīva: Hegel.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So if he accepts God and he inducts a man, the man should take knowledge from God about God. The his knowledge of God is perfect. He should not speculate. And if he has no such source of taking knowledge from God, then his conception of God is also false. If he has got actually the conception of God, then he should take knowledge from God what He is. That is perfect knowledge. He was talking of Oriental knowledge. This is Oriental knowledge: they know who is God and they take knowledge from God about God. But here, Occidental, they speculate about God. What they will know about God? Whatever they speculate, that is imperfect, because he is imperfect.
Hayagrīva: He equates idea, reason, God, and the Absolute very much like the Greeks.
Prabhupāda: Everything is there, but if you take knowledge from God, then that is perfect, and if you make your own ideas—you do not take the ideas of God—that is imperfect.
Hayagrīva: He does say reason is also infinite form, that which sets this material in motion...
Prabhupāda: This is, this is, this is real reasoning, that "I am imperfect or limited. How I can speculate on the unlimited? So better let me learn from the unlimited about the unlimited." That is perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is a definite, not vague, speculative. That is the difference between my translation and others. Therefore I have given the name "As It Is." So we will be no spoke or speculation. As soon as you speculate, you are rejected. Therefore others are seeing some danger that "This Bhaktivedanta's..., this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is accepted, then where we are?"
Hayagrīva: Everybody wants to speculate.
Prabhupāda: That's all. We are, I have stopped it. They cannot speculate on the words of Bhagavad-gītā. That is our mission. Won't allow you to speculate. You are finite, imperfect. How you can by speculation give the unlimited, infinite? How it is possible? That is reasonable. Waste of time, misleading others. Aṇḍhā yathāndair upanīyamānāḥ. You are blind; how you can show others, blind men? They are already blind. You open your eyes, then take the leadership of the blind. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā. That is our process. That's all right. (end)
Hayagrīva: Now in this book Space, Time and Deity, on page 380, Alexander writes... Alexander takes the Aristotelian view of God in saying, "There is no reciprocal action from God, for though we speak as we inevitably must in human terms of God's response to us, there is no direct experience of that response except through our own feeling that devotion to God, or worship, carries with it its own satisfaction."
Prabhupāda: That is his imperfectness. God is omnipotent. He comes before Kṛṣṇa, er, Arjuna, and He speaks Bhagavad-gītā. So because he has no advanced knowledge, he cannot understand how God, omnipotent, all-powerful, can come and speak with His devotee. That is his poor fund of knowledge.
Hayagrīva: Yes, that...
Prabhupāda: If God is omnipotent, why He cannot come and talk with His devotee? Then where is the omnipotency? These rascals cannot understand.
Hayagrīva: That was...
Prabhupāda: There is no meaning of omnipotency if God cannot come and talk with His devotee.
Hayagrīva: He draws a distinction between atheism and positivism. He says, "Atheism, even from the intellectual point of view, is a very imperfect form of emancipation, for its tendency is to prolong the metaphysical stage indefinitely by continuing to seek for new solutions of theological problems instead of setting aside all inaccessible researches on the grounds of their utter inutility. In a word, atheism is still concerned with studying the 'why' instead of the 'how,' and positivism, true positivism, is concerned with the 'how' instead of the 'why.' " In other words, he felt that religion quo religion, religion as religion, had best be set aside because religious questions are basically childish. They can never be answered. So atheism is rejected because atheists "occupy themselves with theological problems and yet reject the only appropriate method of handling them." And for him the only appropriate method is to forget the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: So how can he forget? Atheism will help anyone to improve his position? Just like death. Atheist, if he does not believe in God and God sends him death, how he can counteract it? He has no power to counteract it. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā that death is God for the atheist. Atheists do not believe in God, but God comes to him as death to convince him that "Here I am." So how the atheist can avoid? How it will improve his present situation by atheistic speculation? So how the atheist can become independent? That is not possible.
Purports to Songs
So you remain in your position. Either in good or bad, it doesn't matter. But you do one thing. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You use your ear. That ear is bestowed upon everyone, either fool or learned. So use that ear, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, and hear attentively, and mold your life as you hear from the realized soul. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-mano. One who remains like this, although he is imperfect fool, whatever he may be, he can conquer the ajita. Ajita means God. Nobody can conquer Him, but a devotee who sincerely hears about Him from the realized soul, he can conquer even Ajita, Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. The gopīs were women and not very high class woman, cowherd's men, in the village, not in town, very educated, high society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, no. They all belonged to vaiśya class. And they were woman, not Vedantist, not scholar. But they conquered Kṛṣṇa. Why? And that is this They heard about Kṛṣṇa, and they became lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is required. So that is the real qualification. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so strict about womanly association. Still, He recommended, ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargabhir yā kalpitā: "There is no better type of worshiping Kṛṣṇa than the system which vraja-vadhū, the gopīs, adopted to love Kṛṣṇa. That is the first-class." That is the recommendation of Vedic śāstra. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). First-class religion Religion means to understand God. That is the sum and substance.
| Page Title: | Imperfect (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=122, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 122 |