Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound-laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa—then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. (break) It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to dif
Grade (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"grade"
|"graded"
|"grades"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have.
Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see.
Student: In which way?
Revatīnandana: In these Vedas. There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the Vedas give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places.
Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son.
Student (1): God exists now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists.
Student (1): But therefore where is He?
Prabhupāda: Why is He?
Revatīnandana: Where is He?
Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all.
Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.
Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.
Reporter: Ah.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī."
Reporter: Researchers.
Prabhupāda: Researchers.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kaniṣṭha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Such rascals, they are leaders. How much imperfect that institution is. But if you say, then they will be angry.
Acyutānanda: Yes, one girl, she is Hindu, but she is studying in a convent. And they were catching butterflies in the garden. So the head sister said, "No, don't harm them because they are God's creatures." So she said, "Well, why do you eat meat?" So the sister left, but she failed her. She failed her in her classes. She gave her a failing grade, because she spoke back to her.
Kīrtanānanda: It means they have no philosophy.
Prabhupāda: No philosophy. No authority, no philosophy.
Kīrtanānanda: If they say, "One living entity has soul and another living entity doesn't," what is the difference? What is the principle of movement, they don't know.
Prabhupāda: What is that idea? I do not follow.
Acyutānanda: The girl embarrassed the sister by saying that "You say that we shouldn't harm these insects, but you eat meat." So the sister didn't say anything, but on the girl's examinations and during her classes the sister gave her failing marks, in spite of her, to cut down her outspokenness.
Prabhupāda: Failing marks? Means less...?
Acyutānanda: Yes, she failed her in the class.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh yes. I was in the examination hall, and in fact, people are very afraid to be caught there. But now I heard that the government of India is going to change the system of examination.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they have introduced a grade system just like here in the United States, and then there will be open books, so that they will be not be afraid of copying things. Open book examination.
Prabhupāda: Oh, common sense. (pause) (break) ...man's aeroplane. Just see. Immediately he goes up. And man's aeroplane, oh, you have to takes position, you have to go so many miles like this. Then you can... It is imitation. The aeroplane has also wings, but his wings is collapsed. But that wing you have to keep. Therefore you require so much space.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a vulture. When the vulture wants to take off, he will run just like an aeroplane for a certain distance. They cannot just get up immediately. Vulture.
Prabhupāda: So you scientists, you are like vultures. (laughter) You have imitated vultures.
Umāpati: The symbol of the United States is an eagle, which is a bird of prey.
Prabhupāda: No, eagle... Our symbol is also Garuḍa, big eagle. Yes. Big eagle, Garuḍa. And you know Garuḍa is not vegetarian. You know that?
Prajāpati: Snakes.
Bhavānanda: I tell them that when they ask.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: I say, "Why you are asking me that? You already know."
Prabhupāda: Rather, they are to give information. But this is a plea. Bhagavad-gītā is, was not made in London. (laughter) It was spoken in India. Why they are asking? That means they have become so rascal and fool they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Their position is so low-graded now?
Guest (1): They do not like to learn it. They do not like to know it.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Is Bhagavad-gītā imported from London? Why do they ask like this? How much degraded they have become.
Guest (1): And our answers must be like this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As if you are... They are importing knowledge from Lenin, these rascals, and they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā. How much degraded they have become. Just see.
Guest (2): They even go as far as to say that this Bhagavad-gītā is adulterated now, and...
Guest (4): Maybe also they...
Prabhupāda: Adulterated?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata-dharma. So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta-sūtra, Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā, "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms..."
Prabhupāda: Read the purport.
Nitāi: There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experience. You will find many healthy persons in India subsisting only on these foodstuffs, and they have good brain also. India is still, I think, eighty percent people are strictly vegetarian. Not to speak of the higher class, but the lower class also. The higher class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Vaiśya is via media, between higher and lower. And the śūdras and less that the śūdras, caṇḍālas, they are lower class. So meat-eating is current among these lower class of men, śūdras and caṇḍālas. The caṇḍālas, they have no discrimination, they eat everything, and śūdras, they eat meat, but under restriction. Some of them do not; some of them do, but under restriction, and that is restricted with the goat animal. Less than the śūdras-caṇḍālas, pañcama, fifth grade—they eat everything. Especially they eat—because cow protection in India is very strict—so these caṇḍālas, fifth grade men, they eat generally pigs. Pigs they eat. Outside the village, they have their residential quarters, and they fry live pigs. And they make... Not daily; sometimes. But they eat pigs, and amongst them, there is a class—they are cobblers—they eat this cows' flesh when the animal is dead, not living and we'll kill.
Bernard Manischewitz: He dies his own natural death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the higher class, they keep cows, they maintain, but after all, the animal will die. So when the animal dies, they call for this cobbler class, and he takes away the dead cows. So he gets out the skin, hooves, bones and flesh, they eat, and this skin is tanned by them, and they prepare shoes. So they get their raw material without any price.
Bernard Manischewitz: I see, yes. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: They are poor class. So our program, "When he will die," so they wait for the death of the animal and get the skin, hoof, bones, they make trade. (to devotee:) So what is this key, the elmira?
Devotee: No, that is a little spoon for your tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So cow is very important animal. So from religious point of view, or from economic point of view, cows are not allowed, in the Vedic civilization, to be killed. The meat-eaters, they are everywhere, all over the world, but in India meat-eating is allowed—the fifth class, fifth grade community, they eat these cows when it is dead. And the śūdra class, they also eat meat restrictively, goats. That is only under certain restriction, means sacrifice. The goat is sacrificed in the Goddess Kali's temple, and they eat. This is very dangerous, this sacrifice. It is very dangerous. It creates all sinful men. In the Christian religion also, it is said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are killing. So what kind of Christians they are?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse? The goats?
Prabhupāda: No.
Bernard Manischewitz: Like a sacrifice.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: They seem to be pretty much kṣatriya races.
Prabhupāda: And during Kurukṣetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party.
Amogha: Oh, from all over the world.
Prabhupāda: It was first-grade world war, Kurukṣetra. There is the one king, Śaibya, he came from Śibiya. Where is Śibiya?
Amogha: Siberia?
Prabhupāda: Śibiya.
Amogha: Oh, Śibiya? That's Africa.
Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were... All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to... It is a decision, who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that's all."
Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is devotee, not to the topmost extent.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we hear that Lord Brahmā incarnated as Ṭhākura Haridāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: Sometimes devotees say, "Then how come he's the head of our sampradāya if he's not a pure devotee?"
Prabhupāda: It doesn't require. He is a devotee. That's all right. There are grades of devotee, but on the whole, a devotee is very exalted person. Just like gopīs. Nobody can be compared with the gopīs. There are so many grades of devotees, but they are ultimate. And amongst the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī. So there is no comparison, no more... Even Kṛṣṇa is defeated there. Kṛṣṇa became Caitanya Mahāprabhu to understand the devotion of Rādhārāṇī. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (break) (About something by the path:) ...queen. Elizabeth? No. Queen or king?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there a plaque there?
Brahmānanda: It's a symbol for something.
Harikeśa: They usually make justice to be like that. (break)
Satsvarūpa: Allegorical.
Prabhupāda: Allegorical?
Satsvarūpa: It's not a historial person. One lady represents learning, another... They represent different things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All, women. (break)
Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they can give up sex life? Unless he is liberated, how he can give up sex life?
Harikeśa: That's something which puzzles all the materialists.
Prabhupāda: Mater... They are rascals, mūḍhas. Their only title is "mūḍha," ass. Viśvanātha Cakravartī has described the karmīs as mūḍhas. Karmīs are lowest grade of mūḍhas. And above them the jñānīs. And above them, muktas, liberated. And above them, bhakta. And above all bhaktas, kṛṣṇa-bhakta. This is the graduation. So karmīs, they are all mūḍhas.
Bhavānanda: There are other kinds of bhaktas other than kṛṣṇa-bhaktas?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Nārāyaṇa-bhakta, viṣṇu-bhakta. They are all Kṛṣṇa, but above all of them is kṛṣṇa-bhakta.
Bhavānanda: Many people in India, they say they are śiva-bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: They are all in the material world, karmīs. Karma-kāṇḍa, ritualistic ceremonies. Prahlāda Mahārāja has described them. What is that very word used? And meaning is "one who cannot control their senses." Avijita-indriya. Ajitendriyāṇām, ajita, "one who could not conquer the senses," they are called karmīs. Ajitendriyāṇām. So all these penances, silence, meditation, then studying the Vedic literature, and so many things are there. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in one word he says, "They are meant for ajitendriyāṇām, one who could not conquer over the senses, for them." And for a devotee, one who is actually pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Not that a tiny devotee can claim that he has overcome the influence of this world. No. This is called paramahaṁsa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Not that because you have taken to devotional..., you have become immediately. The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: They are all in the material world, karmīs. Karma-kāṇḍa, ritualistic ceremonies. Prahlāda Mahārāja has described them. What is that very word used? And meaning is "one who cannot control their senses." Avijita-indriya. Ajitendriyāṇām, ajita, "one who could not conquer the senses," they are called karmīs. Ajitendriyāṇām. So all these penances, silence, meditation, then studying the Vedic literature, and so many things are there. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in one word he says, "They are meant for ajitendriyāṇām, one who could not conquer over the senses, for them." And for a devotee, one who is actually pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Not that a tiny devotee can claim that he has overcome the influence of this world. No. This is called paramahaṁsa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). Not that because you have taken to devotional..., you have become immediately. The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles. As soon as you become a rascal—"Now I have become advanced. I don't require to chant sixteen rounds. I can do whatever I like"—then he has gone to hell. Upstart, immediately he becomes paramahaṁsa. He's a rascal. He was given the path of becoming paramahaṁsa. One is admitted in the school, he must learn, and one day he will become M.A. But simply by entering in the school, if he says, "I am M.A.," that is rascaldom. This is a chance. To become jitendriya is very difficult task. But it is easy if he immediately becomes a pure devotee. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūṇyam: (Brs. 1.1.11) "Everything make zero, all desire, except Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is wanted. But that does not become very easily done. One has to try very rigidly; then he'll be paramahaṁsa. Therefore amongst the devotees, there are three grades: kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, and uttama-adhikārī. So if the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī thinks that "I have become uttama-adhikārī," then he's a rascal. He's a rascal. If he wants to imitate the uttama-adhikārī, then he's a rascal.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is seeing that, how everyone is ready to serve. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa-bhakta also sees how everyone is eager to serve Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...engage them rightly, that is leadership. Yes. Otherwise andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). As a blind leader is leading other blind men, this whole world is going on like that. They do not know how to properly lead the people. Misleaders. (break) ...grains, cows, all they should be very properly taken care of and the products offered to Kṛṣṇa. Everyone should be engaged as Kṛṣṇa's servant. That is Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana everyone is engaged how to please Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. (break) ...business to study Vedānta. In Vṛndāvana life we see they were not interested to know what is Brahman. They were interested how to please Kṛṣṇa, how to see Kṛṣṇa smiling. That is Vṛndāvana. Huh? Is it not? From Vṛndāvana picture you see they are simply busy to see how Kṛṣṇa is smiling. They didn't care for studying. What they will study? They were all village girls born in the ordinary class, and they did not know. (break) That is the... Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim: (Nārada Pañcarātra) "If Kṛṣṇa is served, then where is the necessity of tapasya?" No more tapasya. Tapasya is meant for the third-grade men to come to the stage of serving Kṛṣṇa. And one who is, with heart and soul is serving Kṛṣṇa, he has finished all tapasya. Tepus tapas te juhuvuḥ sasnur ārya (SB 3.33.7). They have already finished all this tapasya. Therefore they have come to this stage. Kṛta-punya-punjaḥ (SB 10.12.11). What is called? Piling.
Revatīnandana: Heaps of pious activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Purchasing flower means they are being cheated. That's all. All third-grade flowers are supplied.
Dr. Patel: But this and that plot, these two plots are actually meant by you for growing flowers. I don't know what they're doing. They are growing ornamental plants but not flowering plants.
Guru dāsa: So that piece of land is not exactly on the parikrama but off the parikrama. It's not so far from our property. You know the big park near Singhania's place?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru dāsa: Then one more park.
Prabhupāda: Park? Singhania's building is there. I have seen. Park, I don't know.
Guru dāsa: It's an open spot, not exactly park. It's near Fogel Ashram.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So how did you like?
Guru dāsa: Well, the piece of land is nice.
Bharadvāja: Or, not aṣṭa-dhātu, but bell metal.
Prabhupāda: It will be polished?
Bharadvāja: Yes, you can polish very nicely.
Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen bronze polished.
Bharadvāja: It depends on the quality, grade. Generally they don't use a very high percentage of brass.
Kīrtanānanda: You think it's better than brass?
Bharadvāja: It's a little cheaper.
Prabhupāda: Bronze is very good.
Kīrtanānanda: I've never seen it highly polished.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Why not make brass?
Bharadvāja: Out of brass? Bronze is harder. Bronze is harder.
Prabhupāda: No, why harder? You can make softer. Metal...
Kīrtanānanda: Gold is softer still. It will be much more brilliant in brass than bronze.
Bharadvāja: Generally...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.
Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience.
Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...
Scheverman: Now, how would you proceed in this training program? I'd be interested in that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... If I say that "Live peacefully," this instruction is neither exclusively for America or Indian. It is for everyone.
Prabhupāda: We are practically seeing it, that material nature... Some infection, this is also material nature, and if you are infected with some contaminous disease, you must suffer. They practically see it. The nature will work. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ. As soon as we are in this material world... I am living entity, spirit soul, and because I am in this material world, I have accepted this material body under the regulation of the material laws. Otherwise why there are so many varieties of life? Here is a tree. It is standing here. We are human beings; we are also here. But when there is cold blast, scorching heat, we can go into the room, but he has to be standing here for thousands of years. Why this distinction? It cannot move even an inch. It is also living entity. Why he is punished in that way? And when there will be snowfall, pinching cold, he cannot go. But a small ant, it can go from here to there. Moving and not moving, the two kinds of living entities... Some of them can move; some of them cannot move, sthāvara. Just like grass. We are trampling over with our legs. It cannot protest. Why these differences of grades of life? This is described here. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte (BG 13.22). What is that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Enjoys. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān.
Rāmeśvara: You say they are ghostly haunted.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: Ghostly haunted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, the materialistic man means ghostly haunted. He's talking so many nonsense. The whole grade, philosophy, science and everything, all ghostly talking, that's all. There is no reality. Just like the new science you said, what is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh?
Prabhupāda: That new medical science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Biomedical ethics.
Prabhupāda: A big name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's a nice name. They started with theology also now, in the speculative branch of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So in spite of these big, big names and research and everything, man will die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. He's thinking it will drop. It will never be possible, but they're thinking that by these big, big names we shall find out the way that man will not die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. Hope against hope. So by that method they want to live? No.
Bali-mardana: No. They want to decide when to turn off the machine that is keeping the heart beating, because sometimes the brain stops functioning. The person..., the body is still alive, but there's no consciousness.
Prabhupāda: The coma.
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Harikeśa: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally, mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge." (Ātreya Ṛṣi translating in background)
Prabhupāda: Ātreya, when this is going on you cannot talk, then the attention will be diverted. You can later on explain. Go on.
Harikeśa: "The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogis and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of..."
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Rāmeśvara: Yes. They come to us. "Whites and nonwhites attend with equal frequency." Not that the white people are more religious; black people are less. "People with a college background are more likely to go to church regularly than those who never went to college, but people who never went..." In other words, they're saying if you went to high school but you did not go to college, the chances are you will not go to church as much as if you went to college. But if people went to grade school and then they left without going to high school or without going to college... That means they left at, say, fifteen years old. Then they have the best chance for going to church. That means the less education you are given in America, the more religious.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.
Rāmeśvara: But it's very interesting that they are saying that so many millions of people are practicing yoga or interested in meditation or the Eastern religions or mysticism-millions of Americans. And formerly, I remember, in the 1960's, it was a new thing. Actually when you came, that was the beginning. Before you came to America there was a little bit of interest in some concoction which they call Zen Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Little bit of concoction. But practically no one had every heard of yoga or anything. It was just beginning to get popular when you came to America. It coincided with your visit. So it seems that there must be some...
Hari-śauri: Some kind of a bug there, an ant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be trained up. And dviṣatsu, envious. Four division. So four divisions you have to treat in different ways. Prema, Lord, prema, love. Maitrī, friendship with devotees. Kṛpā bāliśu, those who are innocent, the kṛpā. Let them learn. And upekṣā. As soon as come to the dviṣat, no cooperation. Keep aloof. So when we try to keep aloof from the envious, that is not our enviousness. That is just to avoid trouble for preaching work. Not that we hate them. But because... When you avoid a snake, it does not mean I hate the snake, but because he is harmful we have to take precaution. This is the statement of Bhāgavatam. And when you are in the mahā-bhāgavata stage, first-grade, that time, paramahaṁsa, nobody's enemy, nobody's friend. Everyone... That we cannot imitate. It is not... Preacher, even if he's mahā-bhāgavata, he comes to the second stage. Just like Guru Mahārāja. He's mahā-bhāgavata, but still he had to come to the second stage. He had to take precaution. That is natural. There are so many enemies of...
Jayapatākā: We were remembering how Nitāi had been poisoned, Nitāi and Yogānanda are your disciples. They were recently poisoned.
Prabhupāda: Hm. By whom?
Hari-śauri: Nitāi.
Jayapatākā: By bad association. Nitāi?
Prabhupāda: Ah hah, ah, yes.
Jayapatākā: That... So many devotees are very innocent. They'll fall prey. They'll be impressed by some fancy talking and then can be misled.
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.
- śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
- puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ
- hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
- vidhunoti suhṛt satām
- (SB 1.2.17)
By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-
- naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
- nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
- bhagavaty uttama-śloke
- bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
- (SB 1.2.18)
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So will the government accept?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In United States there is a group in Pennsylvania, and they say that they will not undergo any kind of normal education, because it is polluted, and they have their own education, and they are permitted. Even from six, seven years old, from first grade. They are called the Amish people. (some noise in background) That's not a door, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's heavy dropping of heavy items.
Prabhupāda: Another point, in secular, the scientific knowledge, two plus two equal to four. If somebody says, "No, in our opinion it is five," will it be accepted?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't hear what you were saying.
Prabhupāda: If two plus two equal to four. If somebody says "In our opinion it should be five..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no one will accept that.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, if government requires teaching the science that this body is not yourself, you are different from the body, if some other sect, they say, "That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā; it is meant for the Hindus, not for us," will it be accepted?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should not be.
Prabhupāda: That is expected. He's a good man. But...
Mr. Myer: And people have got very happy for his personal life. He's gets up in the morning and does the spinning, and he's dedicated... He's not even taking medicines or any type of... Very, very strict. He does not wear any cloth which he is not spinning. I don't know how he finds the time, but he is doing so many things. The people are amazed at his... It is very fortunate that he has come now. I think certainly they will all adopt some special... Because people has to come. Once they see the gurukula and Bhaktivedanta Institute coming up... Whoever's not in the gurukula, we're going to post there also... So you don't work the modern language. It is a university also. Perfectly represent special...
Prabhupāda: No, our books are more than university standard. If they simply can study our book, it is more than the course he was given. Tan manye adhitam uttamam. All right.
Akṣayānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...of first grade, one hour there. That doesn't mean necessarily life is shorter. (end)
| Page Title: | Grade (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 15 of May, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=28, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 28 |