Four varnas (Conv and Letters)

Expressions researched:
"four classes, these varnas" |"four varnas" |"four, eight varnasrama-dharma" |"varna and asrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders"

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: These Mohammedans, they pronounce "S" as "H." "Hindus," "Hindus." Instead of "Sindus," they made it "Hindus." So Hindu is a term which is not found in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work."

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru hāya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become...

Prof. Kotovsky: Guru.

Prabhupāda: ...the spiritual master.

Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating brāhmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script...

Prabhupāda: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish.

Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Purāṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...

Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me."

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: Your permission, may I ask one question? Do we offer any solution for socio-economic problems that you can...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be solved.

Reporter: Will it come by itself, or will it come through you?

Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that

puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ

tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ

ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair

janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti

(SB 5.5.8)

This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants).

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

"This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), gṛhastha (householder), vānaprastha (retired) and sannyāsa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided.

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Scholar: Do they have to be Hindus first?

Prabhupāda: Well, why you are stressing to become Hindu and Christian? It is that education for understanding the values of life.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Hindu, Muslim. Any intelligent man will take it. Suppose if you want to be a great mathematician does it mean that you must be a Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan?

Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...

Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.

Scholar: This divisions only in Hindus?

Prabhupāda: No, this division is meant for everyone.

Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (6): He has established very well in the insurance business.

Guest (8): Which business?

Guest (7): Insurance.

Guest (6): He has got a loan insurance company.

Guest (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means... (laughter)

Guest (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business.

Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good.

Guest (8): That is good.

Guest (7): Any business based on ethic is good.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate... But that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example. He was a kṣatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya, let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful.

Guest (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not?

Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Guest (1): Yeah, but if you were to explain to him what is God, how would you explain to him.

Prabhupāda: Then, suppose, what you are? What is your business? What do you do? You're teacher, what is the subject matter?

Guest (1): I teach in law.

Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.

Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some...

Prabhupāda: Why do you summarize like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you summarize your proposal?

The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some...

Prabhupāda: Why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you surmise your proposal?

Guest (1): No, I mean, ah...

Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing. Receiving from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vāk, mind, then, although Lord Viṣṇu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Viṣṇu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood. Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone: "First of all, you become brāhmaṇa. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Viṣṇu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gītā. They hear. They hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed and gradually... If it is a fact, śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian, not all of them are Indian... Indians are also there. But because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message, first of all Bhagavad-gītā, entrance, then Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like books, then gradually, he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... athāto brahma jijñāsā means what is God. So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This is the process. Very simple process. Simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). By hearing, the mirror of consciousness, consciousness is just like a mirror. It is now covered with dust. Mārjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). Simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa is puṇya, pious activities. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Either you hear or you chant. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi, vidhunoti, is washed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Who is...? Find out this verse. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Call him. Śṛṇvatām, you can find out in the index.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

(SB 1.2.17)

This process should be adopted. Hear about Kṛṣṇa. Without any prejudice. Then everything will be... S-r, yes?

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Irst of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested four, eight varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required.

Meeting with GBC -- March 31, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, we recommend everyone become sannyāsa. What is the use of not becoming? (all laugh) We are giving up this world. We are preparing ourself for entering into the family of Kṛṣṇa. So why should we be very much anxious to maintain this family. So actually... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says; "I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a gṛhastha. I'm not a brahmacārī." These four, eight varṇāśrama-dharma is unecessary for spiritually. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with Rāmānanda Rāya... You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required. So it is not recommended for ordinary persons. But this is also unnecessary. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is so sublime, that such things, which is the beginning of human life, that is also unnecessary. Iha bahya age kaha ara. Bahya means "this is superflous. You speak something higher than this." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So that is not very easy thing. First of all, we have to live very regulated life. Sannyāsa life is that regulated life. And then we can enter into the real life. That is ideal. So anything more?

Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama-dharma: four varṇas, four āśrama. And those who are lower than the śūdras, they are not in the Vedic culture. They are called caṇḍālas.

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: ...not within the Vedic culture. Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama-dharma: four varṇas, four āśrama. And those who are lower than the śūdras, they are not in the Vedic culture. They are called caṇḍālas. Among these caṇḍālas, the mleccha, yavana, are also there. There are. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So they are also caṇḍālas, fifth status. Fourth status, up to śūdra, and then all fifth status. So amongst the fifth status, there are all meat-eaters, without any restriction. And there are dog-eaters. So amongst them, the fifth status, one who eats dog, he is considered most abominable.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would a Vedic king try to prohibit such persons from eating...

Prabhupāda: No.

This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Gerson: I've noticed changes just in the few months that I've been among the devotees, in myself, and they've been in that direction, and it's a very nice feeling to be able to feel, at least in small part, into the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if we wants to take this sex license-household life means sex life—so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam, to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Dr. Sharma: I grew up with yogis and sannyāsīs in Hrishikesh. My father is a recluse.

Prabhupāda: Oh, your father is also recluse.

Dr. Sharma: Recluse. And I must tell an incident which, although I was growing up with meditation, I find the bhakti-yoga, the chanting, really fulfilling and actually making the difference. Actually making the difference. In one case, it is abstract philosophy, which is the rāja-yoga, other yogas, philosophies, and this actually makes the person transformed. Another incident occurred yesterday, when I was meditating and I wanted to ask about five different ślokas of Gītā, out of which, surprisingly, you discussed four. (laughter) This was most astounding to me.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Dr. Sharma:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

(BG 4.7)

That was one. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). I'd like to discuss two more: karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. If you could please kindly...

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam, to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Dharma is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. So that duty we are forgetting. And therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty-animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animals. There are many other verses in this connection. Where are others? They are not present here?

Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Bali-mardana: Hindu is not Sanskrit, it's just a popular, general term.

Prabhupāda: Vedic, Vedas, Vedas, that is real, the word. But they have taken it in a different way. Actually the "Hindu," this name is given by the neighbor Muhammadans. There is a river called Sindhu. That river is still there, it is now in Pakistan. So outside the border of India, the Muhammadans, they used to call the inhabitants of the neighborhood of that river Sindhu, Hindu. Because they pronounce s as h. So this is the origin. So "Hindu" is a title given by the Muhammadan neighbors. It is not found in the Vedic literature.

Interviewer: I see, I see. That's like most religious names derived quite often out of ridicule or scorn. Like the Quakers, that was originally a title of scorn. And Methodists, they were the methodical ones, that was a title of scorn. And the Baptists were the baptizers.

Prabhupāda: Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars.

Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. This varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low-grade family.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: Yesterday in my talks with your disciples I gathered that you have at least three of the āśrama-dharmas in practice: brahmacarya, gṛhastha, and sannyāsa. Did you do this to suggest that your movement does not involve renunciation in the Western sense, in which they understand it, asceticism only, to retreat, to withdraw from society, to form a different, small spiritual community or fraternity, not interacting with the rest of society, not influencing society, not being influenced by society? In other words, was it your aim to suggest that the daily life of ordinary people can be built on the foundations of your philosophy?

Prabhupāda: The thing is that human life, the system of society should be divided... Just like you are journalist, so you are not motor mechanics. But there is necessity of motor mechanics also and the journalist also. Is it not?

Interviewer: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that. That means Vaiṣṇava. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). One can immediately transcend the jurisdiction of three modes of material nature if he engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

So actually this varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low-grade family. That is also said by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni, lower grade. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). In the human society, woman, the vaiśya and the śūdra, they are considered in the lower status, not very intelligent. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They can also become... So in the Western countries, according to Vedic calculation, they are mlecchas, yavanas, low grade. But Kṛṣṇa says ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, "He can also be elevated, to that extent as he can go back to home, back to Godhead." So this movement is directly giving the opportunity of Kṛṣṇa's service so that they can become immediately bona fide to the position in the highest grade of life, Vaiṣṇava, so that he can go back to home, back to Godhead.

By nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. This brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Indian (1): Please permit...

Prabhupāda: Your question is?

Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

(SB 7.11.35)

Yad anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (Bg 18.44). They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?

If he remains like animal, that fortune will never come. This is the architecture. So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way. Fortune does not come that "This is very important. Man is the architect of his own fortune." He must accept some process to become fortunate.

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today in the class we read a purport of Your Divine Grace's from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, a very beautiful purport in which the verse says that Bhārata-varṣa is karma-kṣetra. It is the place for fruitive activities. And the other varṣas is where you enjoy the results of those activities. So then you explain the verse, that how the living entity is wandering all over the material universe, but actually he has not improved his condition at all. It is... You explain that it's simply a waste of time. He's not using his human form of life. So when you come on this planet, you should use it to get a guru. Otherwise, simply wandering up and down, up and down.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān (CC Madhya 19.151). This information is obtained by the most fortunate person. What is the use of wandering in this way?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That verse was in the purport. You quoted it there also.

Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Foolish persons are trying to improve. So what is that improvement? The same struggle for existence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. I use that "survival of the fittest," I said, "But who is fit?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What you had said the other... And then I told them, "The four-legged..."

Prabhupāda: Four-legged dog race.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dog race.

Prabhupāda: It is a great poison. Only fortunate person, they can understand what is the value of Kṛṣṇa, only fortunate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it says, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya, bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So it's fortunate because the guru gives the...

Prabhupāda: So that fortune is... By fortune he gets a guru. And by the instruction of guru he gets Kṛṣṇa. So to create fortune we have to take this regulative principle, to become fortunate that someday he'll be able to meet somebody who is real guru and who will give him real guidance. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Therefore pious activities and other things, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā, these things are recommended, to acquire the qualities of brāhmaṇa. These things are required. If he remains like animal, that fortune will never come. This is the architecture. So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way. Fortune does not come that "This is very important. Man is the architect of his own fortune." He must accept some process to become fortunate. And if you want to become fortunate through the rich man, you should enter... (microphone moving) ...just like businessman... (microphone moving) And without doing something, how you can get fortune? That is now... There is no such program. The program is just a animal program: eating, sleeping, mating and defend. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important, to give them the fortune, not immediately but our immediate future, by acting in this way, he'll be fortunate.