Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, the people, they do not believe in the next life. Although in every day affair they are experiencing that "I am eternal. I can remember the days of my childhood. I can remember the days of my youthhood, my boyhood, and I am still working. That means I am continuously there although my body in different ways have changed." So it is a fact that even after changing this body, you will have another body. Just like you are sitting in this room. Now, if you vacate this room, that does not mean you are finished. You have gone in some other room. So this is a great science. And people are neglecting this science. They have no, I mean to say, information. There are so many departments in universities, technological, medical, engineering, but where is the department to know or understand what is this life, what is God, what is our relationship? So this is not very good civilization. So there is life after this life. Just like progressive life, a child is progressing to youthhood, the youth is aspiring to become a big man, important man. As in this life there is progressive life, similarly, life after life, there is also progress.
Engineer (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life. That is the beauty. You haven't got to change. If somebody says that "Sir, I am potter.
Prabhupāda: You come to the fire, you understand it or not understand, you get warm. That facility is there. You don't require to understand how fire is produced, what is the chemical or physical constitution. You do it, understand or not understand. Just like you sit down on a car, motor car. You understand it or not understand it, what is the engineering of the car, but you run on. Similarly, kṛṣṇa-kathā, the simply, the simple method, if you kindly come and hear, then you will be pious. That is the first installment. You don't understand or don't follow, but if the injection is there you become pious. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. And if you give little attention, then the result will be hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi, all undesirable things that is accumulated within your heart, that will be cleared. Kṛṣṇa will help you.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is sādhu. He is not sādhu. He is gṛhastha. I have got many professors, engineers. So they are Kṛṣṇa-bhaktas. Are they not sādhus? The rascal does not know; that sādhu means beggar, he knows. Arjuna became a sādhu. He was a beggar? So he does not know what is sādhu. Sadhu's description is given, bhajate mām ananya...
Guest (1): This particular letter is written by a woman. It is unnecessarily pushing the...
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You say..., cannot explain, you will say it is nature. No. The same working is there. Just like if you paint one flower, you have to take the brush, color, and nicely... You cannot do as nice. So Kṛṣṇa has also to do the same thing, but the energy is so fine and quick, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Kṛṣṇa says and this will go on. Just like if you want to create something, a house, you have to apply, your engineer, your contractor, the ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa also will do the same thing. But His energies are so fine and expert, He desires, "Let there be a skyscraper," immediately there is. But the process is there. Don't think it has come automatically. The same thing. If you want to speak to a friend a thousand miles away, you have to go there and find him, or he has to come. The process is there. By electricity, immediately he comes.
Prabhupāda: Now, you are very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. And try to preach. For sense gratification people are wasting so much time, but they do not..., they're not responsible what is going to happen next life. But there is next life. Foolish people, they are ignorant, but there is next life, and this life is preparation for next life. That they do not know. The modern education, universities, they're completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing body every moment—that's a medical science—and after changing this body, we'll have to accept another body. How we are going to accept that body, what kind of body, this can be also known. Just like one is being educated, when he passes his examination, one can understand that he's going to be engineer or a medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life you can prepare yourself to become something next life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can decide. Just like we have decided next life we are going to Kṛṣṇa. This is our decision: back to home, back to Godhead. Just like you become educated, after decision that you are going to be engineer, you are going to be medical practitioner, and in that objective you prepare yourself, educate yourself. Similarly, you can decide what you are going to do next life. If you don't decide, then material nature will decide. Just like a boy who is not nicely educated, without any future objective, the government will decide. If he's a criminal, then government will decide, "Go to jail," and if he's nicely educated, the government will decide, "You take this job." So everything is like that. We have got our future life, and if we don't prepare what is that future life, then we are like animals. The animals, they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "You are My dear, very dear friend and devotee." So it is not that one becomes a devotee simply by renouncing the world and coloring the dress. But in any dress, in any capacity, one can satisfy Kṛṣṇa if His cause is served. If you apply your engineering talent in Kṛṣṇa's service. Suppose we have to construct a nice temple of Kṛṣṇa. So if you apply your talent to engineering just like in India we have got very wonderful temples, so then your engineering becomes perfect. Similarly, if some business is done, if you apply your business administrative talent... Just like we are doing some business, Spiritual Sky. That is small business but they are managing very nicely. This boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he is a great scientist, doctor in chemistry.
Prabhupāda: Just like we are doing some business, Spiritual Sky. That is small business but they are managing very nicely. This boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he is a great scientist, doctor in chemistry. He is trying to explain Kṛṣṇa through chemistry. Similarly, you can try to serve Kṛṣṇa through engineering. You can serve Kṛṣṇa by business administration. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Everyone can serve by his own work." Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped. Everything is Kṛṣṇa. So every department can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then your talent in the particular department of knowledge is perfect. Then it attains perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Saṁsiddhi means perfection. And what is that perfection? That Kṛṣṇa will be pleased: "Yes, you are very good engineer." "You are very good business administrator." "You are very good chemist." So this is our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say, "This is bad.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll realize when you satisfy actually. You have to take direction. Just like you are engineer or business administrator. You learn the art from a teacher, and then you can know how you are satisfying your master. Just like if you eat, then you can understand that "how we are being satisfied." You haven't got to ask anybody, "Am I satisfied?" If you are eating, then you'll be satisfied. Similarly, if you serve Kṛṣṇa according to the superior direction, then you'll understand that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. First of all you have to learn how to satisfy, and then, reciprocally, you'll be aware that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with you by the result.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not possible. Kṛṣṇa accepted Himself a guru. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted a guru. They are God Himself. So how you can accept: "I can approach Kṛṣṇa without guru"? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā. Kṛṣṇa... When actually you want Kṛṣṇa seriously—you do not know who is guru—then Kṛṣṇa will give you a guru. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He was advised by his mother that "If you go to the forest you can see God." So he went there. But when he was very serious, then Kṛṣṇa sent him Nārada Muni. So if you are actually serious about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will send you some of His representative and he will take charge of you. That is the process. If you do not find a guru, that means Kṛṣṇa is not yet pleased, either you are not serious. Just like when you become serious of studying any subject matter, you find out some college, some institution. You cannot purchase the books and read at home and become expert engineer, expert, no.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means qualified brāhmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?
Śyāmasundara: All over Texas.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Same thing when they discovered atomic bomb, they did not know what's going to happen. This Einstein proposed the equation that a small mass can be converted to a tremendous amount of energy, like his equation that energy is equal to the mass times the square of the velocity of light. So he from his theory found that this is happening, this is a physical law. So if we have a small amount of mass, and if we subject to this equation, then there will be a tremendous amount of energy. But later on it happened that they used the knowledge in the wrong direction. So many people got killed. And at the moment, the so-called genetic engineering...
Prabhupāda: That also they do not understand properly, because they do not see the spiritual energy. Just like we know that within this body there is a small bit of spiritual energy, spark, which is ten thousand part of the tip of the hair. How small it is. But due to its presence within the body, the body is working so nicely. We know that, that how a small particle of spiritual energy can work so wonderfully. They do not know it.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. They will be bribed and they will vote. They will get money, that's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another thing that is coming up is genetic engineering, which they are afraid about, just like they say remember like atomic bomb incident. The politicians will utilize the...
Prabhupāda: So why they discover all these nonsense and waste their time? Why do they not discover something which will stop all problems of life—no death, no disease. Why do they do not know? They are also rascals, combination of rascals. Why do they expend their energy and intelligence for this nonsense purpose? (break) ...which will be reduced.
Gurudāsa: I will be going today if he sends a car. Or if not, I think I will go tomorrow. But that means I cannot go to Delhi. But I don't think... I think Manasvi and Mr. Sarkar, the engineer, can handle this deal. It's just to see if they can give another allotment.
Prabhupāda: Not that everywhere you have to go. You go to the important business.
Gurudāsa: So which do you think is more important—this deal or the palace? I think the palace.
Prabhupāda: Anyone can purchase. But to get the palace it requires great tactful dealing.
Pañca-draviḍa: I was being trained up in this. For one-and-a-half years I was going to MIT in Boston and planning to go into this chemical, chemistry or chemical engineering or metallurgy, something like that. But I could see that actually the people around me, my student body, all the people in the school, they were so maladjusted and miserable that I decided "If this is the result of their scientific training that they are so miserable, I'm going to leave here immediately," and I did so. I got out as quickly as I could. (break) ...see that their training is just simply bringing them misery in life and, therefore, there is no purpose in acquiring such knowledge. And Prabhupāda describes it as being like the jewel on the hood of a snake, more dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Once I was invited to speak in that institution, MIT. So I questioned, "Where is your department of technology to understand the difference between dead body and living body?" So I spoke on this. So the students appreciated. After my lecture, they gathered around me. How do you explain? What is that technology, why the man is dead? Science is simply based on this bodily concept. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13).
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're already existing. That's all right. But what is the nature's activities? It is some power. Is it not? So power means energy. As soon as you say energy, there must be some source of energy. Just like you say: electric energy. So there is source, the electric powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity's not coming automatically. You have to install powerhouse, machine, generating machine. Then the electricity will come. And the resident engineer. Who is the engineer? What is the machine? And then electricity, there is question of electricity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The engineers, they'll say, "Oh, we have made this."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but another engineer, such a big engineer, he has no appreciation. Just see.
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in car)
Prabhupāda: We simply ask that you appreciate the original engineer. That is our... (end)
Prabhupāda: Good morning. That is police car?
Brahmānanda: No, he's the engineer I think.
Prabhupāda: Harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Sattvam... There is an Indian government slogan, sattvam eva...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sattvam eva jayate.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is sattvaṁ jayate. It must come out triumphant. We have to try for... How foolishly they are propagating a false theory, and amongst themselves self-complacent, getting prize, eulogization. What is this nonsense? Expose them. Bluffing. The bluffing should be exposed. What you are doing here?
Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body: the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you may—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be-their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme."
Prabhupāda: Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemists, physicists, engineers, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point, angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. This is... This we can simply imagine: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument.
Prabhupāda: Now, suppose one man is engineer. So if I address him "Mr. engineer," what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, there is nothing wrong so long as you...
Prabhupāda: No, this particular name, when I give to him, what is the wrong?
Mr. Wadell: The only thing is that it is not complete.
Prabhupāda: Why not? That "engineer" word completes his situation. He is engineer.
Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" everything.
Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers,
Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you.
Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see?
Prabhupāda: He knows it.
Student (3): It doesn't smell.
Prabhupāda: That is, that is next question, that you have to accept next body, but what kind of body you'll have? That you can see, that there are so many varieties of life, body. You have to accept one of them. Just like when you were admitted into school for education. The idea was that you'll be educated, and according to your education, there are so many posts you'll have to occupy. Just like you are lawyer, he's medical man, somebody's engineer, somebody else, somebody... Varieties or field of activities. So according to the perfection of one's education, he has to accept one post like that. Similarly, next body means according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1).
Prabhupāda: Oh, whatever you want to become, the basic principle is sense gratification. Either you become scientist or doctor or engineer, the main thing is "Bring money." That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some doctors think that they are doing humanitarian work.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so long he will pay. That's all. "Hospital." In your country especially. "Hospital" means "to receive." But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise "Get out." It is no longer hospital.
Prabhupāda: Sujit, oh. (Bengali conversation regarding his being a student of science, chemistry and plastics engineering, and Śrīla Prabhupāda tells him that he attended Scottish Churches' College) (break) ...astrology?
Sujit: What is my opinion?
Prabhupāda: No. I am asking scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all I did not believe astrology in the beginning. I thought it was a pseudo science.
Prabhupāda: No, you may think, but what is the opinion of the scientist?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?
Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.
Prabhupāda: Karma, karmaṇā, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhāgavata. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). We have already explained that our karma, according to varṇa and āśrama... Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone is working according to varṇa and āśrama. So svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma, an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving. But he has to see, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate. It is Gītā. And it is said, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhiḥ, perfection. What is that? Hari-toṣaṇam. We have to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box, he's turning to be a refrigerator. And again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he's not there. He's not there.
Dr. Patel: God is with that.
Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayir bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat.
Prabhupāda: Then again comes to that, here... Kṛṣṇa is within the dog, but he is not dog.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even a man is born in the brāhmaṇa family, but if he is working as something else, so he should be... Practically also... Just like somebody is paṇḍita, brāhmaṇa, but if he is doing the work of an engineer or doctor, he is addressed as "Doctor Saheb." That is practical. "Doctor Saheb. Engineer Saheb." Not "Paṇḍitji."
Indian man (5): By birth he may be brāhmaṇa like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. By birth, there is no brāhmaṇa. By saṁskāra. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is...
Indian man (4): Birthright is not brāhmaṇa. No birthright.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, for Kṛṣṇa, all māyās are the same. Just for engineer, the electricity is the same both in the refrigerator and the heater. For us we see different, that "This is hot and this is cold." (break) ...when you are freed from all these māyās. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (break) ...the sample of Kṛṣṇa's mercy...?
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhāgavata, yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi hariṣye tad-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8), that "This is my mercy. The first test is that I take away everything, what he possesses."
Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand.
Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language.
Prabhupāda: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi, fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange.
Indian man (2): He was blasting our society. That's why I let him be that.
Prabhupāda: No, still, you should not say like that.
Indian man: Sthapati is a temple engineer. He will lay out the plans as per the (indistinct) śāstra and as per the rules laid down for the construction all temples in India. No other (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He has gone there? No.
Indian man: Once he had been to New York. They are now preparing all these idols, etc. They will be sent by sea.
Prabhupāda: So what Deity will be installed there?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So they were all engineers.
Prabhupāda: No, no, engineer. Engineer are also demons, but he is no longer demon. Now doctors are demon. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...land only for this beach.
Dr. Patel: But you are going away.
Prabhupāda: No, I am... (Dr. Patel laughs) I am here. (break) Very soon. (break) Living entities are there in the sand. How do they say there is no life in the moon? I cannot understand. What they are eating within the sand?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same water drinking, but when it is purified by the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa... You cannot drink. And still, you are scientist. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: One boy from engineers' school of technology here in Bombay has found out a method of...
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. He will turn one cup of seawater into sweet water and it will cost some hundreds of rupees.
Dr. Patel: That is right, but these fellows, they have found some natural way.
Prabhupāda: Well.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the service also, you must take sanction. Anything you want to do you must take sanction from the Lord. You cannot do anything whimsically and you think that "I am rendering service to the Lord."
Richard Webster: Oh, yes, but then the sanction, would that apply to scientific activities like engineering, one of the factories of producing (indistinct)
Atreya Ṛṣi: Would God sanction activities in the factory, technological, scientific world?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no sanction. These are all sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: That's all. They have got some intelligence. They are utilizing for piling up these stones and bricks. That's all. This is their intelligence, how to pile up nicely stones and bricks. Crane. The same thing. The real business is to pile up some stones and bricks, that's all. They are making research, engineering. The real business is how to pile up stones and bricks. That's all. The same business as the children pile up some sand and imagine "This is park, this is this, this is that."
Prabhupāda: No, because they have no knowledge. How we can enjoy life without knowledge? They also accept that for this comfortable situation they require knowledge. The engineering knowledge, this knowledge, that knowledge. But that knowledge is not sufficient. You require another knowledge. That you are lacking. You are deficient in that knowledge, self-realization. That is the defect. This knowledge will not help you. For eating, sleeping knowledge, this child, if I give him some eatable, immediately he knows the knowledge, "This is eatable. I shall capture it and put it in the mouth." It doesn't require any education. That is natural. If I love this child, he will respond. This knowledge is already there.
Prabhupāda: So energy comes from a source. Just like this electric energy is coming from the electric powerhouse. There is a resident engineer who is... What is called? Chilling (?)?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Generating?
Prabhupāda: Generating, yes, generator. He is somehow or other, putting the machine to get out...
Yogeśvara: Turning, turning the generator.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Engineer.
Prabhupāda: Engineer. So the electricity is being generated. So behind this energy there is the living entity, engineer. Otherwise it is useless. No more energy. If you drive away that resident engineer, the electricity will fail. No more energy.
Robert Gouiran: I see that, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to understand like that. So behind this big machine which is generating electricity, there is a living being, who is pushing the button.
Prabhupāda: Naked. This is hellish. (dog barking) Now this, another hellish life. His only business is to bark. The master may like to keep a dog, but if he is said that "You also become a dog," he will not agree. Will he agree?
Madhudviṣa: But whether he agrees or not, he will become one, if he is too much attached. (break) ...the chief engineer of building the chariots, and all of these people are his assistants.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whatever talent one has got... These talents are also acquired after austerity. It is not ordinary thing. So everything should be employed to describe Uttamaśloka, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is Uttamaśloka. So we have got so many Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's pastime. We can overflood. Just like you can overflood with this literature, we can overflood... This is art. Art, music, everything we can utilize. In any way one is addicted—let him eat only, let him sing only, let him paint only, let him dance only—we have got everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let him do business also. Yes. Engineering-construct temple. It is so all-perfect movement, Kṛṣṇa... That is Kṛṣṇa, all-attractive. Everyone can be attracted and give up everything. He will be attracted by Kṛṣṇa in such a way that he'll give up all nonsense.
Hṛdayānanda: In the modern world the engineers are designing everything. So how can an engineer use his talent for Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Design a temple, nice temple. There are wonderful temples, very expert engineering. And they were ordinary men but the engineer was so nice that nobody can manufacture such temple in the whole world, still.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that was really wonderful, what you explained, that previously the people would build a very wonderful temple, and the ordinary people would just live in a very common, simple house.
Prabhupāda: So that is the defect, that the modern civilization, they are not taking care of the spirit soul; they are simply taking care of the machine, body. Therefore the problems are there. You asked, "How to solve the problems?" The problems are there on account of this, that they are not taking care of the driver; they are simply taking care of the machine body. So if you take care of the driver, then he will remain sane, he will drive nicely, the body will not be disastrous, he will live peacefully. This is the problem. If the driver is careful, then he will not require very frequently the mechanical engineer for the car. He will keep the machine in order. If he keeps himself sane, then he keeps the machine also order.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that solution we are preaching, we are trying to preach. At least one section of people should know the science of the soul. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like medical necessity is there, does not mean that everyone should become medical man, similarly, the science of soul is necessity; it does not mean that everyone will be the transcendentalist or the scientist about soul. But at least one section of people must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. As much as there is medical man—he knows perfectly well what is physiology, anatomy—there is engineer—he knows how to construct—similarly, a section must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul.
Prabhupāda: So as there is need of medical man, engineer or lawyers or other, similarly, there is need of one section of expert who knows the science of soul. The medical man, the engineer, the archeologist or this or that, they are all meant for the body. Similarly, there must be one expert section who are meant for the soul. But all the universities, they have got these departments, medical department, engineering department, law department, but there is no department which is teaching perfectly well about the science of soul.
Prabhupāda: First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees.
Governor: No, we take this electrician or engineer or an...
Prabhupāda: No, that is already being taken. There are institution where electricians are trained up and motorist, they are... They have enough.
Governor: No, what is... What is the... An electrician we get him. He is an electrician and also becoming a brāhmaṇa. An engineer...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that cannot be.
Governor: You want completely a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: No. Why you are suggesting that although he is a brāhmaṇa, he become a electrician. Why?
Governor: I will put it this way. He is an engineer, but I would also...
Prabhupāda: Engineer?
Governor: A mechanical engineer.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Your preaching will not be stopped. It will go on. (pause)
Amogha: He's bringing the car. He went back. He'll bring it around. (reading sign) "The Tree Society originated the idea of placing this kadi log in King's Park. The log, normally destined for milling, was provided and brought by Booning Brothers P.T. Limited from their Darling River sawmilling area. The following transporting and placing in position of this great log from over 200 miles from the depths of the forest, with each of the three sections borne on a 200 horsepower motor truck, was a major engineering feat and a tribute to the spirit of western Australian timber men. With the approval and assistance of the King's Park board, the actual placing of the log in King's Park by 25 June, 1958, was contributed to by Hume Pipe Co., Aaron Brothers B.P. Australia Ltd, the Forests Department and other government departments. The completion of the project was a fine example of community effort."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution—this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer—as there are different departments.
Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.
Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.
Prabhupāda: To believe in the authority. You also believe in authority. But ultimately, in this way, if we acquire this qualification, then we become first-class man. So anyone can be trained up. Just like these boys. They were fourth class, fifth class. And now they are trained up to become first-class men. Just like anyone can become geographer, anyone can become engineer by proper training.
Justin Murphy: Do you think you'll make it?
Paramahaṁsa: I'm making progress.
Prabhupāda: They are young men. They are all within thirty years.
Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And such stories are in Mahābhārata also. The demons were engaged, giants and demons, for construction. Yes. And they were very good artist, how to do it. Now we employ the first-class men, so-called first-class engineering, but they were meant for the demons and giants. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, that explains how they built such fantastic temples and palaces.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Some people say, "Why don't we see any giants any more today?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Africa, there were many giants, very high, very strong.
Devotee (1):. Where is that?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required.
Prabhupāda: That is described in the Śrīmad-..., Bhagavad-gītā, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.
That is necessary.
Guest 2: I think the problem in western society, because in western society if you're not the head, then you're inferior.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Guest 2: If you're not the head, you're inferior. In Indian society that's not so.
Prabhupāda: Who shall be the head?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you are training lawyer, as you are training medical man, you can train some men like that. It is possible. If you train from the childhood, it is possible. It doesn't matter from which family he is coming, but it will require, trained up. Just like you have been trained up as lawyer, it doesn't matter from which family you have... It may be lawyer's family or engineer's family. It doesn't matter. But training. So at the present moment, to make the society perfect, a class of men should be trained as it is described here. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if the first-class men are there, people will consult them, people will follow them, the whole society will be nice.
Prabhupāda: We have been training them to, how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Mohammedan family, this... No. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come. He can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam. What is that? So...
Devotee: The verse is...
Prabhupāda: Satya śama damaḥ titikṣa. You don't find?
Devotee: I thought it was the verse about the qualities of a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, what is that?
Prabhupāda: He is Gopal. He came to learn electrical engineering.
Brahmānanda: Gopal.
Prabhupāda: Mmm. His father is rich man. His father came to see me, yes.
Brahmānanda: From Mathurā.
Prabhupāda: Mathurā, yes. His father, mother... That Sally used to say, "My husband is a lost child of their parents." He is not doing very well. He is getting $800. At that time, maybe $1,000. What is here, eight hundred, thousand dollars? He could have lived very comfortably at his father's care.
Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.
Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?
Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...
Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society? Do you think all men are equally intelligent?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: So this Satchitananda, before he became yogi, he was an engineer. So in his spare time—I was asking this boy, "What does he do? What is his life like?" I was wondering what he lived like. So he goes to bed at 8:00 at night, and no one sees him until 8:00 in the morning. So I asked, "Was he asleep?" So he said no, that he's in some trance. And then during the day he works on cars. He collects old automobiles, old classical cars, and he takes them apart and puts them together for a hobby.
Prabhupāda: He cannot give up his old habit.
Bahulāśva: No. He cannot give up the engineering habit.
Baradrāj: About this Yogi Bhajan also, when I was in Delhi ...
Prabhupāda: Delhi?
Baradrāj: Yes, in Delhi, there was one cloth merchant there. And he asked me, he said, "Do you know this Yogi Bhajan?" I said, "Yes, he is very famous." He said, "Oh, he is my cousin. We used to be in the cloth business together. And he could not make enough money, so he decided to go to America." But his experience was, he was a train engineer actually, train.
Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?
Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer.
Devotee (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: We say that. But ask the professor that "You are engineer; you are not so powerful. There is another big engineer who has done it. So God means you try to understand who is that biggest engineer."
Prabhupāda: And all the oceans? Here is the highway, and there is the ocean. Which is important? (laughter) You might have created these highways, but another engineer has created that ocean, side by side. So who will get the greater credit?
Devotee (4): They say that there's a limited amount of resources here on this planet, that unless we use these resources wisely, then they will all be used up. They say that there's very limited amounts, so therefore they must be careful.
Prabhupāda: But this... Who supplied the resources of this ocean? They say that water is combination of hydrogen and oxygen, so wherefrom this hydrogen-oxygen supply came?
Devotee (4): So in every school they have so many organizations. Is this a good idea, that we can have debating programs like this along with selling books.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let them study another line of education. Just like there is religious section. It has nothing to do with the engineering, but there is section. Similarly, in religious section or in another section these things should you study, Bhāgavata. That is good. Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata.
Jayatīrtha: Shall we take your leave now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Rāmeśvara: Jaya, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?
Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: ...that man, and then Krodha Mahārāja knew that this man would be perhaps hanged by the officials. So the engineer... (break) He was smuggled into Africa. And there, in Africa, he learned Bengali by himself, reading book. And he was Bengali scholar. (break)
Prabhupāda: He was professor of Presidents' College, Calcutta. Their opinion is Sanskrit is the mother of all languages.
Dr. Patel: In Russian language there are so many Sanskrit words.
Prabhupāda: Deva-nāgarī. In the heavenly planets this language is... Heavenly planet the Sanskrit language is used. Therefore it is called deva-nāgarī. Nāgara means town, and deva means demigod.
Saurabha: No. These poles, they all set in size about nine feet. You notice they're about fifteen to eighteen feet. So we use them only for the scaffolding.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...anyhow, they have done it very quickly. Our engineers could not have done it so quickly as that. You are quite fast. And the structure is very strong.
Prabhupāda: (laughter) I say they are quite slow.
Dr. Patel: No, no, but it takes its own time for curing and all these things. How can an engineer accelerate that natural process? And that structure is really extremely strong.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We want to see the temple also.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Dr. Patel: Yes. He could at least save the American government from catastrophe, how to drain before finishing this Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is an engineering feat, sir. The two sides, seas, are uneven, and they have made locks in the.... You must have seen that. No? They have locks. One side, sea is higher than the other, and they allow the ships to get to the middle lock, then pump in water and then bring on that side. Engineers must be knowing, you know. We had to study all these things, medical history.
Prabhupāda: So many medicines, vitamin D, vitamin C...
Dr. Patel: All medicines, sir, vitamins, and all even hormones...
Prabhupāda: But why not discover something that you will save from death?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Engineering. To keep people going in single file.
Jayapatāka: There's no other door like this exactly.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In India. It's the only one in India.
Bhavānanda: Otherwise the people come and crowd up at the exit, and then, when we open it up, everyone falls down.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is.... (break) ...place to be utilized?
Bhavānanda: This will be playpen. This will be for the children, the little children to stay.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will immediately silence them. Big crane rolling in that can be seen. The crane will be bigger than any other temple that's already built here. (break) ...engineer from Larson and Tubro who came to meet you in Bombay? He says that they've built one building now, the tallest building in India. It's a thirty-five-story building. It's over three hundred foot high.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: Where is that? Bombay?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: Air India building?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ladder where? Where is there a ladder going to be?
Bhavānanda: Going up this way. I'm not exactly sure how the engineering works. Jayapatāka designed it.
Prabhupāda: It has been a mistake. The staircase should have been from this, within this.... Why it has not done, that? What is this nonsense, a ladder? (break) ...going to.... Yes.
Indian man: One person, he is coming today.
Prabhupāda: One person?
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One is that gentleman, Mr. Narayan. He's an engineer with the city electrical department, and the other is a full-time devotee. I have his address, Mr. Narayan's address.
Prabhupāda: So they are still here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's anxious to go back. He's going to London until August; then he's going back to Mauritius with his family.
Prabhupāda: No, there are different aims also. If you are interested to become an expert medical man, then the knowledge is different. If you want to become an engineer, the knowledge is different. Similarly, if he wants to overcome all the obstacles, then this is the education.
Richard: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: This is the final.
Richard: What about other religions?
Prabhupāda: Other..., you become interested in medical, you become a medical man, you become an engineer, you become other.... You take that education. But one who is interested to stop all obstacles of life, this is the only education.
Richard: This is the only one.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Richard: Have you studied other religions?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I'm saying. Without studying, how can I say? I am challenging, not saying. We are challenging. We are not saying only.
Richard: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: All over the world, yes. Therefore.... In your country.... You are opulent in every respect. You should.... We are cooperating, we can cooperate. Let us start that "Here is a school or college..." Just like there is engineering college, technological.... Here is a college to learn how to become first-class men. Why not?
Scheverman: It is part of your plan to operate schools for this purpose?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.
Scheverman: You hope eventually to have schools where training of this kind can be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they.... English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari family they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist, no. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train.
Prabhupāda: No, while constructing, filling up this, what is called, column, in Bombay, they're putting air so that they become solid stone. You have seen in Bombay? Big engineer, they are giving some pumping air so that while the cement is filled up, it becomes solid.
Hari-śauri: Oh, vibrators.
Kīrtanānanda: We also do that.
Prabhupāda: You have got some machine?
Kīrtanānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That makes solidified.
Prabhupāda: Ah, no. I see, but.... It appears there is no vacancy. Everything is there, engineering. Engineering process is (indistinct).
Kīrtanānanda: Yes. And we'll take you down to the gray house down here, we'll show you a few more things, how it's being finished. It is just rough here.
Prabhupāda: What are these pipes?
Kīrtanānanda: That's for drainage. For when the water goes out into the sewer, and goes out into the field and drains.
Prabhupāda: You can utilize this water for fertilizing, drain water.
Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he's not medical man, but he has two or three Ph.D.'s in two, three different fields. In engineering, in chemistry and in pathology.
Vṛṣākapi: He's becoming a life member, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That pathologist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He works in National Institute of Health in Washington, D.C. We was telling me he was from Haridwar from a very pious family, and he said his parents are Vaiṣṇavas, and he has been thinking since from his childhood about this problem about life, the origin of life and consciousness, and we talked a little bit about our concept of this origin of life, connecting from the Vedas and the scientific interrelationship.
Prabhupāda: In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the śāstra, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacārī, gṛhastha or vānaprastha, sannyāsī, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacārī?
Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Sharma: I have a Ph.D. in chemistry, a Ph.D. in biochemistry, a Doctor of Science in clinical endocrinology. I have a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry of London, which is a higher Ph.D. I am in computer information and control engineering...
Prabhupāda: Royal College of... That... What is is called?
Dr. Sharma: Royal Institute of Chemistry, London. And I have a law degree. And I am in computer information and control engineering.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are such a big man. Kindly join us and help us.
Prabhupāda: Now I have collected one Indian, four items he is Ph.D. He is Ph.D. in chemistry, Ph.D. in engineering...
Hari-śauri: Dr. Sharma?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Ph.D. in pathology. Four, and he's lawyer also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he going to do?
Prabhupāda: He's going to help our, this... (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are bookstalls, look at that. Barnes and Nobles, they are putting up bookstalls here.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He wants to help us. He has many degrees. In chemistry, in pathology, in engineering. He said if we have an institute like this...
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...it would be very easy to defeat Māyāvādīs.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they claim that they are Vedantists.
Prabhupāda: They are nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-sāheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-sāheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa, if you call him a brāhmaṇa, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise.
Prabhupāda: No, there are different types of education. Just like in the material world. There is education for medical man. There is education for engineer. There is education for so many other departments. Similarly, there is education how to make one man spiritual. So we are going to give education how to become spiritually advanced. That is our purpose.
Rāmeśvara: Spiritually advanced, that is our purpose. No, her question was whether all the people that go to our Gurukula will become spiritually advanced.
Prabhupāda: Poughkeepsie. Where it is?
Indian man: It is hundred miles north of New York. I work there. I am an engineer, and I have been trying to spread Kṛṣṇa conscious movement of yours, trying to teach from your Gītā to the Indian community, and I have been slowly trying to get American people also involved. And, as I see, more and more American people are now coming in. And in fact, those people who are very steadfast, who come to attend my class, are the American people. I am very glad to see that they are taking very great interest. And...
Prabhupāda: Indians are not taking so much.
Indian man: No, sir, I'm...
Prabhupāda: Indians are baḍa sāheb(?) (laughs)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who immigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' "
Prabhupāda: That's a fact, that I say always.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that requires the training and guidance of spiritual master. Therefore called spiritual master. You have to... Just like if you want to be an engineer, you must be trained under some engineer. Similarly, if you want to be trained up spiritually, then you must accept a spiritual master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) must, otherwise not possible. Training. So spiritual master trains with these books, and explanation, practical demonstration. In this way the student makes progress spiritually.
Ali: I am a Muslim and I practice dervishism.
Prabhupāda: That, that... This is also a misunderstanding. You are thinking you are a Muslim. Why?
Prabhupāda: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I can do it. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam (Bg 18.68). What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Saurabha: To contact engineers and everything? Now, if I have to pay some money for that type of work, do I take it from the Bombay...? It is not much, but some money is there, some expense is there.
Prabhupāda: So... (break) ...immediately... You have waited. Why not wait till the reception is there?
Saurabha: I have some people, they do practically things for free. They work on it. But they only do that because they know in the future we're going to do it. So if there is too much delay, they may lose faith.
Prabhupāda: A class of men, brāhmaṇa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).
Prabhupāda: It was all by chance. I was for a few days guest at his father's place in Agra. I did not know that his son is in America. So he was talking about his family. He was little sorry that his eldest son went to America to study electric engineering, and he was entrapped by an English girl, and he married and settled there and did not come back. In this way... So I took the opportunity, that "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me?" I wanted to go to America. So I did not know how seriously he took it. But I simply told him that "Why don't you ask your son to sponsor me at least for one month. So I am thinking of going to America." Then that was talking, beginning and end, that's all. I did not know that he took it very seriously. Then after two, three months, some documents came. I was receiving my letters in a post box.
Prabhupāda: No. That friend was one of my friend's son.
Dr. Kneupper: I see.
Prabhupāda: The boy went there for learning engineering. But he settled there and married one English girl. I became his guest for about a month. Then I came to New York.
Dr. Kneupper: I see. Was the place Slippery Rock, was that the first college...?
Prabhupāda: No, the place was Butler.
Dr. Kneupper: You were in Butler, right?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. And if somebody says, "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible. You are experiencing every moment. As soon as the electric energy is stopped, the fan is stopped. The room is dark. So there is powerhouse behind this electric energy, and the powerhouse is being managed by one engineer. This is natural conclusion. And Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: "Under My supervision the material nature is working." Find out this verse.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Mr. Gupta: By God's grace I'm a very successful man. I'm youngest chief mechanical engineer on the Central Railway. I know kāma, krodha, lobha, moha—all are, taken to extreme, it's pāpa. I know it. But when they overcome in the heat of the moment, they you're not able to retract yourself. It's only when...
Dr. Patel: Then... Then...
Prabhupāda: No, let him. That you have to practice, how to use kāma, krodha. That is described by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Kāma means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kāma. So convert it, this kāma desire, for Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. And persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kāma, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it. Just like Hanumān. He became very angry, and he set fire in the Lanka. Unless one is very angry, he cannot do that.
Girirāja: Yes. We've met him once before because he's... The municipality is under him. So when we met the Chief Minister to get these things straightened out, so at that time he spoke to this Urban Affairs Minister. So he knows us, he's quite intelligent personally. But I think if... First we'll meet the city engineer, he's next to the commissioner and just say that we don't want to have to get this N.O.C. So if he removes that condition then the whole problem is solved. Do you think we should go straight to the minister?
Prabhupāda: Harassment.
Girirāja: Huh?
Prabhupāda: Harassment.
Gargamuni: No, we'll get a retired man. They'd love the work. Just like we have that engineer. He's a retired engineer. We pay him some small salary...
Prabhupāda: Why you want to go by boat to the coast?
Gargamuni: Because you can't get by road. There's no roads. They're dirt roads. Many of the villages you can't get to except along the water routes.
Prabhupāda: Hm. But so far I know, it is very rough, Bay of Bengal.
Prabhupāda: I could understand his position. Now he's going to be dismissed.
Rāmeśvara: No, it's a fact that people go to college in America, but they cannot get good jobs when they graduate. If they have not taken specialized training in engineering or something...
Prabhupāda: That is technical, technology.
Rāmeśvara: ...technical. But if they have a general education, they cannot get a good job.
Gargamuni: And this is... māyā's kick in India is that they read these books, they go to school, and when they come out there's no job.
Prabhupāda: No job.
Guest (2): When you are giving a darśana... Yesterday we came to see you. That, these people, had to go to Bombay yesterday. But when a certain uttered that you have come here, we were astonished. They ran to my office, told me that "Guruji has come." "No, you are wrong." "No, you see. It is from our local newspaper." He's from Bengal. So he came for us and told me he would let us go and see. By five o'clock they had told him... "Let us go." We came here, and there's some people here I was talking to him. That engineer when Guruji tell that no rain, he was searching for the water, (indistinct) in that I was telling him that way. So Guruji when you are giving the light, wisdom, or making blessing that you become filled the superness. You surrender yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Wooden bridge.
Gurukṛpa: Roads like this. Just in Melbourne and Sydney, nice roads. I think I saw better roads in India. I was very surprised.
Prabhupāda: Thing is they do not know engineering. They have no business. (break)
Satsvarūpa: The modern young person thinks, "I don't want someone to tell me the truth. I don't want someone to pick out who my husband or wife is. I want to be free to experiment and find out for myself. Then I'll know."
Prabhupāda: But where is your freedom?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday, when I came from Manipur, there was one Bengali engineer, civil engineer, who was working in Manipur, Mr. P. K. Sanyal.
Prabhupāda: Hari-śauri? You close this part of the door. Yes That's all. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mr P. K. Sanyal from Balliganj.
Prabhupāda: P. K. Shah?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sanyal. Sanyal. He's in late sixties or early seventies, very old. We became very good friends. He's a very nice man.
Prabhupāda: On the plane?
Prabhupāda: What Dr. Dattrey says, after hearing your lecture?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Many..., some engineers came, and some doctors also came. They wanted us speak in Bombay Hospital. And just now also I got a letter from England from Jagadguru Swami. He said that on our way to the United States we should stop in England. He says that he talked something about Bhaktivedanta Institute in England. He said we should speak in Oxford and Cambridge Universities. He said there is a very good preaching background there. So he invited us to...
Prabhupāda: You will be invited. You stick to your position and train up your assistants and recruit more and more. We shall come out successful. Write books. You can take. Now yesterday Dr. Dattrey, did he say anything?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He didn't say much, but Dr. Sharma, he was discussing, and he was telling that he will definitely make an arrangement in Bombay Hospital for us to speak. But he was very impressed. And some life members came later on when the greeting of the pandal was finished. And some engineers also. They want to discuss something today also.
Prabhupāda: Recruit them. And speak in such societies. We have now our prestige and preaching. It will be very nice honor everywhere. So Kṛṣṇa has given you some talent. Utilize it. These rascals are misleading. Although the instruction is there, they are misinterpreting in their own way, misleading themselves and misleading others. They say the name of God. They do not know what is God, although God is explaining Himself.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Hoax. First hoax was little successful. Now they say it will not be very successful.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One aspect in science that they're worried more nowadays is called biomedical ethics. That means they are worrying about so-called this genetic engineering. They say by this engineering they can develop some small insects or microbes that will be great harmful. It will be very harmful to the society. So these big, big schools like M.I.T. and Harvard, they are... Some of the leading scientists in this field, they're very much concerned about this new development. (end)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other day, when I went from Delhi to Calcutta in the plane, I happened to see that Dr. Chatterjee from Calcutta University. She's a lady, woman, but she's very well known. International scientist she has become. Her name is Asina Chatterjee. And I never saw here, though I was studying side by side in the next building, in Calcutta University. She discovered some drug. That's why she became famous. And she's also a member of Council of Scientific and Industrial Research all over India, and also a member of University Grants Commission. So she told me that she went for a meeting to attend in Delhi, and there was also an engineer who was sitting in between me and her, and I was discussing about our plan for scientific conference on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He was also Bengali from Calcutta. Somehow she became very interested. I was explaining how scientists misleading, thinking that life can be chemical. And I was describing about how life can be nonchemical and nonphysical. So Chatterjee immediately joined the talk. And I immediately recognized that she must be Chatterjee. So I asked her, "Are you Dr. Chatterjee?" I never saw her before, but I just guessed right. She was Dr. Asina Chatterjee. And she became very interested in the talk, and then she was completely agreeing to our discussion that life is something spiritual, beyond physics and chemistry. So she actually invited me to come and give a talk in chemistry department Calcutta University. So I said that we are coming back with our scientific group from Kṛṣṇa consciousness and would like to present the philosophy in that chemistry department. So like that, there are many...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Recruit them, at least some.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśvakarma-pūjā, oh, yeah.
Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇas will regularly come, worship Viśvakarmā or demigods. Viśvakarmā is the engineer of the demigods. Some demigod also they will worship. Even the butcher will worship goddess Kālī, then he will apply the knife to the throat of the animal. Even the butcher. Recognition of higher authority.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would the blacksmiths do the pūjā to Viśvakarmā, or brāhmaṇas?
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa will do. Similarly, the spice merchants, they'll worship Gaṅgeśvarī. The gold merchant worships Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. He says, "The highly developed forebrain and the deeply convoluted cortex have helped him to think creatively. Scientists, as a general rule, are objective thinkers because they base their thoughts on empirical knowledge. Mystics and visionaries, the so-called spiritual scientists of Dāsa and Swami, on the other hand, build up their thoughts on their subjective perceptions. Books on chemistry, physics, mathematics, geography, history, geology, anthropology, paleontology, engineering, medical science, astronomy, etc., are the products of objective thinkers."
Prabhupāda: Big, big words, that's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our chief guest for tomorrow has already arrived. And he's very impressed. I took a tour of our temples, also the Gurukula. And they're very impressed with the whole building and the whole program that we have here. Very nice. He brought also an architect. He's a retired engineer, Chowdury from..., together. Also we already have a mathematician from Delhi University for tomorrow. So I took three of them tour of our temple and gave them nice prasādam. They were very impressed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This has never happened before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the real ācārya for this age, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You perfectly know how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You're making people who would ordinarily never take interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness become devotees.
Prabhupāda: In the beginning, when I was selling Back to Godhead alone, I wrote one practical businessman, Mr. Bande(?) I think. He said, "Swamiji, why you have made Vṛndāvana headquarter? (laughs) It is not a place for..."
Akṣayānanda: That's going on. Construction is going on. Saurabha Mahārāja came yesterday, and he has given that idea. He had some objection before. He's clarified that objection. It was an architectural point, just for the beauty. So he's clarified that with the engineer, and it's going on now. I haven't had time, Prabhupāda, to talk to the members—some of the members are still remaining-about their conference, because I had to go for this work. But I'll go now and meet some of these gentlemen, get some idea what is their aims and objectives and resolutions. Otherwise, unfortunately, I could not be present there. But I'll give you a report.
Prabhupāda: Their aims and object is superficially good, that "We altogether preach." But they do not know the ways. That is their defect. Neither they'll take up as it is. So it will be failure.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) What work he gives? (Bengali)
Gaura-govinda: Now we'll begin construction. Our architect-engineer, Samjata, was there. He was making plans, but unfortunately he passed away the last 23rd. So...
Prabhupāda: What happened?
Gaura-govinda: He suffered from fever. He had some fever, high fever. So he fell unconscious. The doctor came and gave some medicine. The fever was checked, but he gave some high-power medicines that affected his brain, and so he couldn't speak. He just collapsed and stayed still. We came to the hospital that night. Doctor tried his best. He gave saline and oxygen.
| Page Title: | Engineer (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 20 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=124, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 124 |