Prabhupāda: The impersonalist theory is that I am now devotee. As soon as I become perfect I become one."
Prof. Hopkins: Oh.
Prabhupāda: That is their theory. Then there is no more difference. In the preliminary stage, when I am not perfect, I am worshiping some imaginary form of God. But when I become perfect there is no need of worshiping, I become one with God. This is impersonal. Now, actually, the Supreme has no form so they recommend whichever form you like to worship you can select out of these five. But their destination is the same. So somebody likes "I worship Śiva," somebody says "I worship Gaṇeśa," somebody says, "I worship Durgā," and Sūrya, or somebody says, "I worship Viṣṇu." So this Vaiṣṇava is impersonalist. You'll find amongst smārta brāhmaṇas there are also some of them Vaiṣṇavas, but they are impersonalists.
Prof. Hopkins: So you would... You would say that those, those smārtas say, and I know smārta brāhmaṇas who are worshipers of Viṣṇu. You would say they still are impersonalists in some ultimate sense because at some point they would deny...
Prabhupāda: No, it is very difficult to pick them out. Most of the so-called Vaiṣṇavas, they are impersonalists.
Prof. Hopkins: Some, I suspect, are more Vaiṣṇavas than they are smārtas.
Prabhupāda: So, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām?
Brahmānanda:
- satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ
- yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā
- nitya-yuktā upāsate
- (BG 9.14)
"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion."
Prabhupāda: Perpetually. It is not that I am worshiping now and when I am perfect I become one. That is impersonal.
Prof. Hopkins: But someone who sees devotion as the not just a stage...
Prabhupāda: They say everything one; no devotee, no devotion, and no person. Everything becomes one.
Prof. Hopkins: So that would then be the deciding test, as it were, of whether one were a serious devotee or not.
Prabhupāda: Devotee means serious devotee.
Prof. Hopkins: Not only that one is devoted now, but that one sees the goal as perpetual devotion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitya-yukta.
Prof. Hopkins: And which never is there...
Prabhupāda: The word is used, nitya-yukta. Nitya-yukta means perpetually. If a devotee is to merge into the existence of the Lord then why this word is used, nitya-yukta. Upāsana. Not only nitya-yukta, upāsana. Upāsana means "you worship Me." As soon as the word is "he worships" that means the worshipable and the mode of worship and the worshiper must be there. That is indicated, nitya-yukta, perpetual. But the Māyāvādīs or these impersonalists, they think that it is temporary. I am devotee temporarily. As soon as I become perfect I become one.
Prof. Hopkins: So that you would see then, in terms of, in terms of some kind of theological structure, you would see that Puruṣottama as always...
Prabhupāda: Uttama, uttama means the best.
Prof. Hopkins: Always superior.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Hopkins: And always...
Prabhupāda: That is the word, puruṣottama. Puruṣottama means supreme or superior. So there must be inferior, otherwise, how he is superior? Is it not?
Prof. Hopkins: Hm.
Prabhupāda: As soon as he is the superior, professor, or the, what is called? Junior or senior. As soon as called senior, there must be junior. Without junior there is no question of senior.