Prabhupāda: So we don't say that "You change your profession, you change your position or occupation," no. Please come and hear. Please... If you don't chant, please hear. That hearing process also will cure you. Śravaṇam kīrtanam. So people should come to our temple and hear this chanting, this... We are not taxing. We are not asking any... If you give some contribution, there is temple and management, there is expenditure, heavy expenditure, in this country. If you so kind... It is very kind of you. Even if you do not pay, you don't like, please come. Please come and hear. Please bring your friends if you are really friend. So it is very nice thing. Sthāne sthitaḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir. You remain what you are. We don't say that you change, but you hear. Śruti-gatāṁ. Śruti means this ear. God has given you this nice thing. You just inject this transcendental vibration through this ear. And when you will, you purify yourself, then you'll know how to make your life successful by your occupation.
Cure (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Forget that. You are attracted. That you take account of. When you become diseased, that is useless. You are diseased. Take medicine. There is no necessity of asking when you became diseased. You are diseased. Take medicine. That's all. What is the use of tracing the history? Everything has his history, that's all right. But my immediate necessity is that "I am diseased. I want to be cured. Give me some medicine." But there is history. The history is this. Just like disease. You have fallen victim of disease. That means you have given chance to the infection. That's all. That is the sum and substance of disease. You are infected with some disease. That means you have given chance for that infection. There was a story in a medical journal. "Typhoid Mary." Typhoid Mary... One girl, whenever she was present everyone was being infected with typhoid. Then she was examined, that she is full of typhoid germs. But she was immune. But she infected wherever she went. The medical journal reported. So we should be careful not being infected. And that how you can become free from infection? These four rules. "Don't have this, don't have this, don't have this, don't have this." Then you are free from infection. So you should be careful from being infected. There is no use tracing out the history when you become infected. You should not be infected. That should be your business. And as you are now infected, you try to avoid the causes of infection and take the medicine; you become cured. Some prasādam? So Annapurna you have got some news?
Annapurna: I got a letter from my father.
Prabhupāda: When you go to a medical man do you ask him whether he is Christian or Hindu? I am asking you. Suppose you go to a medical man, do you ask him, "Are you Christian or Muslim or Hindu?" Do you ask him?
Guest (1): Me?
Prabhupāda: No, I am asking this girl. Why? Because your business is to cure your disease. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or a Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Similarly, you have to seek love of God. Wherever it is available, you have to take it. That should be the point of view. It doesn't matter where it is available. One should be hankering after love of Godhead. Love of God. Gold, somebody is after purchasing gold. It doesn't matter where it is available. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether you develop love of Godhead from this scripture or that scripture. Your aim should be whether you are developing love of Godhead or developing love of non-God. That should be the test.
Journalist: I guess I've really asked the main question. Not the main question, but the thing I want to know again was, again, why this, and about people like the Maharishi, which turned me off and so many people. My daughter was very involved in that kind of thing for awhile, and she's terribly disillusioned.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The psychology is that your people, all the western people, especially youngsters, they are hankering after something, you see? But the difficulty is... Just like me. If somebody comes, "Swamiji, initiate me." I immediately say that "You have to follow these four principles," and he goes away. And this Maharishi, he did not put any restriction, you see? Just like a physician, if he says that "You can do whatever you like. You simply take my medicine, you'll be cured." That physician will be very much liked. You see?
Journalist: Yes. He'll kill a lot of people, but he's very liked.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) And a physician which says, "Oh, you cannot do this, you cannot do this, you cannot eat this," it is a botheration. So they want something. That is a fact. But at the same time, they want it very cheap. Therefore the cheaters come and cheat them. They take the opportunity. "These people want to be cheated. Oh let us take the advantage." You see. Otherwise, they are advising that "You are God, everyone is God. You just realize yourself, you have forgotten. You take this mantra, and you become God, and you become powerful. Whatever you like, you can control. And there is no control of senses. You can drink, you can have unrestricted sex life and whatever you like." People like this. "Oh, simply by fifteen minutes meditation, I shall become God, and I have to pay only thirty-five dollars." So many millions of people will be ready, "Oh, let me." I mean, thirty-five dollars in your country is not... But that much, thirty-five multiplied by million, it becomes thirty-five million dollars. (laughs) And we are crying here because we cannot bluff. We say that if you actually want, you have to follow these restrictions. We cannot allow you that the commandment is "You shall not kill," and I shall say, "Yes, you can kill. The animal has no feeling. The animal has no soul." We cannot bluff in this way. You see.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Material consciousness means forgetting God. When one forgets God, that is material consciousness. Material consciousness is called māyā. Actually one should not forget. But if he forgets somehow or other, that is material consciousness. Naturally nobody forgets his father and mother. But if, somehow or other, he forgets, that is a special circumstances and that is called māyā, illusion. Just like any one of you who are existing, you must have a father and mother. That is a fact. Without father and mother, your existence cannot be. Now, if you cannot say who is your father and mother, if you do not know, this forgetfulness, this is called māyā. Actually it should not happen, but somehow or other, if you are asked, "Who is your parents?" You cannot say. This is called māyā. But there must be some father and mother. Without father and mother, there cannot be an existence. You cannot deny that. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no father and mother." That is not possible. You may not know who is your father, mother. That is a different thing. But you cannot say, "Oh, I have no father, mother." So this denial, that "I don't believe in God," is a existence like that, one who has forgotten his father and mother. That is māyā, and that is material consciousness. Denying God in different way, "There is no God," that is also denial. "I don't believe in God"—that is also denial. "God is impersonal, void," anyway, whatever you say in that way, that is all insanity, māyā. Maya means insanity. Another meaning of māyā means insanity. Just like when a man becomes insane, that is false. It is expected that he should not be insane. By treatment he is brought again to his original consciousness. Similarly, māyā means insanity, forgetfulness of God. And by Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment he comes to the original consciousness. He becomes a cured man. Actually māyā means which has no existence. Māyā has no existence. But sometimes it is there. Just like the sky's cover. This covering is not reality. The reality is this sky, clear sky, but somehow it is now covered. You cannot see the clear sky. So there is temporary, temporary illusion. Now, if I see the cloud only and if I say, "Oh, there is no sun. There is no illumination," or "There is no clear sky," that is insanity. Because I cannot see-under certain circumstances, I deny it—that is my insanity.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a nice scene to perform?
Prabhupāda: Yes. While He was traveling in South India, in a village that leper Vasudeva, he was coming to see Caitanya from a very distant place. And then when he came to see Him, Caitanya Mahāprabhu had already left. So he was so sorry and crying. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu came back and embraced him and he was cured. These are some of the miracles.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the introduction to the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, up until the age of 31 there is description, but then there is very little description from the age of 31 to Lord Caitanya's disappearance. Maybe you can tell me as much as you can of what happened...
Prabhupāda: He left His home at the age of 24 years. Then He made His headquarter in Jagannātha Purī. For six years He traveled all over India. That means up to thirty years. And after that He remained in Jagannātha Purī for 18 years. He was chanting in the evening in the Jagannātha temple, and taking bath. And during this car festival all devotees, especially from Bengal, would go there and live there for four months. And after seeing the Rathayātrā ceremony, they will remain there for four months. Then they will come back. This was going on year after year.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mantra, if it is valuable, it is valuable for everybody. Why it should be for a particular person?
John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, is recommended in the śāstras, and great stalwart—we consider Him the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. (break) So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. So it is very secret. Then how to get that secret thing? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You simply follow great personalities, how they have achieved success. So our, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is to follow the great personality, just like Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu or ācāryas of His succession, to take shelter of authority and follow.
Guest (1): I'd like to know how physical things that are done, as chanting or dancing or... Are there no...? If you consider , as having any importance. How do these physical things affect our spiritual understanding?
Prabhupāda: Physical... Just like a milk preparation. You take large quantity of milk, you get diarrhea. But the same milk, if it is prepared into yogurt, if you take it, your diarrhea will be cured. So physical things, when treated spiritually, it cures physical disease.
Guest (4) (Indian man): You said the approach to spiritual goal, through this way, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma. Okay. Now there is another philosophy which has been preached by Ramakrishna and Vivekananda: "The service of man is the service of God."
Prabhupāda: And why not service of God service of man?
Guest (4): No...
Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. If service of man is service of God, why not service of God, service of man?
Guest (4): Okay. It is one and the same thing because within man is within the soul, which is...
Prabhupāda: So, one thing, suppose that service of God is service of man, then why should you go door to door serving ... If God is service of man, if you say service of man is service of God, then service of God is service of man.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. Oh, it will not stay.
Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay.
Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is danger.
Prof. Kotovsky: Ah, yes.
Prabhupāda: Because we are... Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences. So nobody has come. But even Christian priest... Even Christian priests in America, they love me. They say that "These boys..., our boys... They are Americans. They are Christians. They are Jews. And these boys are so much after God, and we could not deliver them?" They're admitting. Their fathers, their parents, come to me. They also flatly offer their obeisances and say, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come. You are teaching God consciousness." So on the contrary, I have got reception from other countries. And India also, as you inquired of India, all other sects, they're admitting that before me many hundreds of swamis went there, but they could not convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness a single person. They are admiring that. And so far I am concerned, I don't take any credit, but I am confident that because I am presenting the Vedic knowledge as it is, without any adulteration, it is being effective. That is my contribution. Just like if you have got a right medicine and if you administer to a patient, you must be sure that he'll cure.
Sister Mary: Do you believe you (indistinct) people, if they hear it? If they hear this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness.
Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy...
Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God. They are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he'll put it in the pocket. How... You see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but use is different.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is Godless, he cannot have any good qualities.
Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. So one doctor who's less intelligent says, "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. Sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says, "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all... There are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is Godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they... With one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail.
Guest (2): But you will not comment on the details themselves.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work.
Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment. To say that the whole of mankind is one and we're treating the disease in the human heart (indistinct) You can't do it by an overall (indistinct)
Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. (indistinct)
Sister Mary: We condemn wars but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say, "God, stop this war."
Revatīnandana: There's a saying, "charity begins at home." (end)
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lust and..., Eros, lust. Agape(?) is pure love, transcendental love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is... This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring everything to the perfectional stage. The others, they're, out of frustration, they want to stop all activity. That is voidism—to stop all this activity. Buddha philosophy is more or less based on this voidism, make everything null and void. No more activities. No more love. We don't say. Just like you cannot see properly because our eyes are diseased. So cure the disease and then you see properly. And other says, "All right, pluck it out. The disease in the eyes, take away." That is not very good proposition. We say that make treatment to make the eyes to see properly. Remedy problem. Our proposition is: Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena... (CC Madhya 19.170). We simply cleanse the process. The seeing process we cleanse. We don't pluck out the eyes out of frustration. Don't see, make everything void. No. We don't say that because there is no void. It is simply frustration. There is variety, nice variety, spiritual variety. We are bringing people to that position.
Reporter: I could many times fall from here...
Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says, "I will save you." Therefore let us go to Kṛṣṇa. Why (indistinct)?
Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Disturbing... Your mind is also disturbing always.
Reporter: Yes, yes. You are...
Prabhupāda: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh, I'll (indistinct)"? Why don't you go to (indistinct) to cure your (indistinct)? (laughter). So why you do? You are already in danger. If you... Why don't you realize that point?
Reporter: That I... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore...
Reporter: But we are talking of national problems.
Prabhupāda: These are symptoms. Just like one man is diseased and he is saying, "Oh, (indistinct)." Real thing is his disease. These are symptoms. So people are trying to cure patchwork. We are giving the supreme cure. That is the difference. No patchwork, no patchwork disease cure will help you. Complete cure.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...have no attachment. These are all nonsense. You cannot be (indistinct). A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Him. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, you don't pluck out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine. He dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality... Because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. (indistinct) as soon as they (indistinct), make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. The body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul-bodily concept. The body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy.
Prabhupāda: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel, no. Everything all stopped. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish.
Bob: I feel that when I go back, though...
Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like, if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body, no. Therefore for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam (SB 5.5.1). Unless you purify your existence, you're hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible.
Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I'll become purer, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I don't see myself doing that.
Prabhupāda: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated.
Yadubara: I think I understand a little bit, gradually.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you understand little bit, that will give you great benefit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato. If you understand little, that means your door is open. Just like sometimes there is boil. If little mouth is open, that means that is the beginning of oozing out all the pus. It will gradually open, and that is the natural venue. Open and it will be cured. So little understanding is also very good. Then you will understand further. What you have understood now?
Yadubara: What have I understood? I understand that the chant has potency, has some meaning for me. And I understand on the basis of what I've done before, on the basis of my experience, what I've seen around me, I've seen that conditions are not good. And I've seen the conditions in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are much better and the feeling is much better.
Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. Yes.
Yadubara: So I think it must have some worth. There must be something here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can discuss with these boys and girls. Try to understand. Here there is nothing dogmatic. Even something appears to be dogmatic, it is not dogmatic.
Prabhupāda: That may be, but you may be cheated, that is another thing. Suppose you ask something from somebody. If he cheats you, that may be your mistake or his, but the process is the same; you cannot avoid it. If you want to know God, then you have to go to a person who knows God. You might have gone to a person who does not know. That is another thing. You went to a wrong person. But actually if you want to know God, you must have to go to a person who knows God. That you have to search out. That requires intelligence. But you cannot give up the idea. Because you have been cheated, "I could not get information"; therefore, you cannot give up that business. You have to find out somebody else. But because you say "I have been cheated. I could not get the right information. I stop this business," that is not allowed. You must. Therefore, according to Vedic order it is said, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means you must to a person to understand that science of God. You must go to a guru or a man who knows. Guru means who is more intelligent. Guru means weight, heavy, heavier, heavier in knowledge. So you have to find out a person who is heavier than you, not ordinary. Must go. Not that may go or may not go. No. Must go. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). And what is the symptom of guru? Śrotriyaṁ. Means he has heard about God from his superior, his guru. Śrotriyaṁ. And how can I know that he has heard from his superior about God? He might say that "Yes, I have heard," but what symptoms? Brahma-niṣṭham. Brahma-niṣṭham means that he has become a complete devotee of God, result. Just like a man, physician. A physician means he has attended the medical college, passed the examination, and the result is that he's practicing as a physician. Not only passing will do, but he's actually passing and he's actually practicing and he's curing patients. Therefore, you find out a physician, here is a physician. It is not difficult. So guru means one who knows God. How can I know that he knows God? Because he's making others to know God. Where is the difficulty? But if you go to a person who does not know God, that is your fault. If you go to a physician who is not actually physician, a storekeeper, then that is your fault. You must have the intelligence who is a physician. That much intelligence you have got. You see a signboard, Dr. such and such M.D., medical practicer. Now you go there and you see there are patients waiting for him, for his treatment, he's giving medicine and they are being cured. Then what is the difficulty to find out a physician? There is no difficulty. So if one is serious to be cured of the disease he must go to a physician. If he does not go to the physician, how he can be cured? Just like you have learned this guitar playing. Do you learn it alone or learn it from somebody?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no argument, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's just the conditioning of the mind, the trouble of the mind.
Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. Manodhara. Manodhara means those who are conditioned by the mind, their statement is not accepted according to our philosophy. Because he has no value.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have to be cured.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have to be cured.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Crazy.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So a crazy man's statement is not accepted. Child's statement, crazy man's statement, unauthorized person's statement, blind man's statement, we cannot accept.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's statement?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's...
Prabhupāda: If a woman is perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Just like Jāhnavā-devī, Lord Nityānanda's wife, she was ācārya. She was ācārya. She was controlling the whole Vaiṣṇava community.
Prabhupāda: Bingo.
Jayādvaita: I was reading, they prescribe..., the book prescribes all our principles.
Prabhupāda: And five hundred, five hundred priests are in hospital for, for their drinking habit. Five hundred or five thousand? You know that? Yes. Brahmānanda gave me a cutting from newspaper, that five hundred or five thousand priests are in the hospital to cure of their drinking habit.
Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand. (indistinct) five hundred.
Prabhupāda: Huh? They're drinking, they're eating meat, they're gambling and they are having illicit sex, and they are preaching. And we say, "First of all stop these things, then claim yourself to be religious, or God conscious." You cannot indulge in all these things. (aside:) Oh, you have kept my one cloth outside?
Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's outside.
Prabhupāda: Because I may require in the.... So, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know, but if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done? We say that "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test. But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process within so short time, how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also.
Guest (2): Do you seek government help?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If I get government help, I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youths. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. So if the government comes forward, this means a little facility, I can turn the face of your country, immediately. There will be no problem.
Guest (2): What can you cure? What can you make better?
Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright faces, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't engage in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it?
Guest (2): Will they be able to function in a society as working individuals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. Simply you have to change your consciousness, that's all. We are also eating, we are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders; they have sex. So there is..., nothing is prohibited, but regulated for higher achievement. That is our program.
Ian Polsen: And one needs guidance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve. But when it is serving, that is healthy condition. Similarly, we living entities, we are part and parcel of God. When we are not engaged in the service of the Lord, or God... Everyone is engaged to some service. Somebody's serving his family, somebody's serving himself, somebody's serving his government, somebody's serving so many things. And somebody's serving even cats and dogs. So these are all mad condition. So when he turns to God... Service he must give. Nobody can say, "I'm not serving anybody." That is not possible. You must be serving somebody. Just like you are serving government, he is serving some office, because service is our nature. So we are not happy because the service is misplaced. When the service is rightly placed, then it is our normal condition. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me." That is real liberated condition. So our mission is serving God. In this way, that people are suffering on account of their godless life. So we are making propaganda that "Serve God, then you will be happy." We know why he's suffering. The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve me. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve.
Prabhupāda:
- kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare
- pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes... (break) Especially in the Western world, everywhere attracted sex life. Mini-skirt so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways they want to avoid the after-results of sex life, contraceptive. The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there. That they cannot give up. So-called giving up, but they cannot give up the real central point. So this is māyā. He's captured by this one idea, mithuna. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is attracted by this sex life. We are trying to use this sex life in different way. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇa-bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They're becoming diseased in so many ways. Sex life, indulgence of sex life means you will become diseased, so many diseases. That is a medical fact. So this movement is very scientific movement, authorized. Anyone who will take to it seriously, sincerely, will be cured of this material disease and be happy.
Ian Polsen: Your Grace, you said I needn't give up my job, but may I look forward to the time when I may give up my job?
Prabhupāda: You come morning, evening, you come, as far as possible associate with us and try to give some service.
Ian Polsen: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you are getting some money. We have no money. If you try to serve, that will... Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). This line is service. The more you render service, the more you become enlightened. If you simply philosophize, theorize, you'll get no benefit. You must render service.
Devotee: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you.
Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem.
Ian Polsen: They only treat the symptoms, not the cause.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine, and for the time being I am cured, then again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one who has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference?
Devotee: Coat.
Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so-called scientific improvement, nice medicine, nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall..., I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that?
Indian: That's the hardest (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Just like your British Empire. You are British?
Ian Polsen: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Easygoing, that is actual real life. But that easygoing, you must come to that stage. If you come to a healthy stage, then when you eat you can digest nicely. But unhealthy stage, if you eat, how you will digest? Therefore, you have to cure your disease first of all. Then you eat, it will be digested. So in the material condition, nothing can be (indistinct). Therefore, how it is called conditioned life?
Jayatīrtha: We're bound up by so many conditions.
Prabhupāda: Ah, the conditions. So first of all you come out of the conditioned life. Just like we are trying to go to other planets with so many machines, so many mechanical arrangements. But if you have got spiritual body, you can go anywhere. Anywhere you can go. As Nārada Muni is going, traveling, any planet he likes he is going. That freedom is there, but that is in spiritual body. So you come to the spiritual body first, then you get all freedom. Whatever you like, you can do. Whatever you desire, you can get.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda gives the example like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it might look like poison at the beginning, but at the end it will be nectar.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They like to do things in future.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We say it is nonsense. In future, it is all right. You say, "In future...", but where is your method for future prosperity? That I am talking... If a child is getting proper education, then we can say that he has got a good future. But if the child is wrongly directed, then where is his future? A patient who has gone to the physician and undergoing treatment, he can expect in future he will be cured. But if he's lying down on the bed, and does not know who is physician, then where is his future? He has no future. So all these leaders, they're rascals, and who are following these rascals, where is his future? He has no future. They're all rascals. Anyone accepting: "This rascal is a great scientist." So his future is doomed.
Brahmānanda: The blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not, he does not know what is future happiness. He does not know.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't want to admit that.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot do at the moment, but somebody will come up in future so they can show. But they don't want to admit...
Prabhupāda: So that's all right, but, at the present moment, you are rascal. Somebody when come, intelligent, that is another thing, but you are rascal. So why you are leading, cheating others? That is our protest, that you know that you are a rascal, and you are cheating others to become leader. That is our protest. Why should you cheat others? Mūḍhaḥ. If he says that: "How do you know that I am rascal?" Because you do not know God. Therefore you are rascal. Mūḍhaḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). If you are, would have known what is God, then you would have surrendered to Him. Then you are intelligent. But because you do not surrender, you do not know what is God, therefore you are a rascal. This is the definition of rascal. Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. And intelligent means one who surrenders. He's intelligent. One who does not, he's rascal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, evolution in general. And second lecture is on cancer, the causes of cancer disease.
Brahmānanda: Do they know the cause of cancer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there are several theories. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease. That they cannot. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā puts before you the real trouble is this birth, death, old age and disease. That process we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this body, no more acceptance of material body. This is real science. (break) ...suffer from cancer. (laughter) They don't suffer from cancer. So they are in better position than the so-called human society. They are creating causes of cancer disease and then making research and taking Nobel Prize. How foolish society it is, this. Why you create the cause of cancer disease? You accept these four principles of life—no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex—there will be no cancer. There will be no cancer. You find out, those who are strictly on this line, they never suffer from cancer or any disease. Now take for example, me. I have come here in this country for the last seven years, 1965, and it is 1973, eight years. How many times I have gone to doctor? That once that heart attack. That is serious; that is another thing. Otherwise generally how many times I have gone to? I don't pay any bill of doctors. So if we live very hygienic life, regulated life, there is no question of cancer or any disease.
Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. So why should we waste our time. Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come.
Guest (5): (Hindi) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā.
Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. (Hindi) But if there is physician, it can be cured. So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So why don't you do that.
Guest (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva-bhāvena bhārata.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done?
Guest (5): Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ.
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva-dharma. Sva-dharma, that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ. You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa. But he's not doing that.
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained.
Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?
Prabhupāda: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?
Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...
Prabhupāda: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.
Father Tanner: He would admit that,...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.
Prabhupāda: How a priest can be intoxicants?
Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.
Prabhupāda: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.
Śyāmasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured.
Malcolm: If a man reaches his maturity of years and leaves a western school, and he has the words which say "Know thyself," may he reject his family ties?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. Maybe a family man or without family. It doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter.
Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.
Bhagavān: Another question?
Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tomorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Where?
Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes.
Devotee: Here, it'll be.
Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Yogeśvara: Second Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām.
Yogeśvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little. And they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it?
Haṁsadūta: No.
Prabhupāda: In the First Part, there is. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). Kīrtana. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. If one hears from you, he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing.
Bhagavān: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant.
Prabhupāda: Hearing is the first. Saṅkīrtana. Let him..., give, give him chance for hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa.
David Lawrence: ...the redwoods, yes. Makes Walt Disney look a bit...
Prabhupāda: So this kind of longer life, what is the value?
David Lawrence: Yes, you know he had his body put into suspended animation. I don't know what they call it, cytology is it or something? They have them put into chemicals and bathed. Because he died of cancer and he wants to be woken up in about fifty years time when they've got the cure for cancer and then he can live again and make a few more films apparently. (laughter) It's extraordinary attitude to life isn't it really? One of the other problems that I was going to raise, and in fact it appears in the question sheet, it seems to be some, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is that the right pronunciation? I always get these things wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhāgavatam.
David Lawrence: A very great deal of what one could call demonology if you like. Now, I confess this raises problems for me. When a book like that...
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata was written five thousand years ago.
David Lawrence: Yes, very, very ancient. Is it to be taken, the references say to Pūtanā, is this to be taken...
Prabhupāda: It is also fact.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir
- yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
- (BG 3.42)
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses. Indriyāṇi. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding. (pause) Give him prasāda.
Paramahaṁsa: Oh, I see. And he's a very good friend of Gauracandra. He's a devotee from Amsterdam. And he's a professional psychiatrist.
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda's just saying his mantra, Gāyatrī.
Paramahaṁsa: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: So very glad to see you. (break)
Dr. Hauser: You see, when I met George, he was a very, what do you call it, person that hadn't found anything very specific in life. He floated about very much and he... Now when I met him yesterday he was very, he seemed very happy and very sure of himself and what he was doing, and that made me very happy. I thought that was something very nice. I liked him very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original status of the living entity. Just like a son is conscious always that "I am the son of such and such person." This consciousness is natural. So living entities, when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Because we are all parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. It cannot be broken. A person may go mad. But when he's cured, he immediately understands that "I belong to such and such family, such and such gentleman's son." That is natural. Similarly in the contact of this material nature, the spiritual spark, living entity, he's in madness. You are a psychiatrist. You know very well. Every man is more or less a madman.
Prabhupāda: So everyone is mad. Anyone who is in material contact, he is mad. So we are trying to take him out of this dreaming condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Hauser: But does he stop dreaming? I mean, substantially, does he stop, stop, does one stop dreaming?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Stop means... Because dreaming means that is not my actual occupation. Dreaming means that. I am separate from the dreaming condition. So if one stops this dreaming condition, then he's cured.
Dr. Hauser: But the dreaming of the night also has another function, according to my...
Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dream. You are none of this. As much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take: "This is fact," sometimes we take: "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170), liberated from all kinds of false designation.
Dr. Hauser: Oh yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: But we don't charge anything. Free. I began this treatment in New York, and it is coming effective.
Haṁsadūta: All over the world.
Prabhupāda: I think you should adopt this means. A simple method. Don't charge anything. Simply ask him to do this. He'll be cured. (pause) Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means completely cured. Mala means dirty things. And nirmala means just opposite, no dirty things. Nirmalam. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are freed from all dirty things, then it can be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Hauser: One, one very normal problem that I meet very often in patients is the security to feel that one can believe in something, a security of... Always there is... Very often there is an ambivalence. "Should I believe? Should I not believe? I have a, a..." Swaying to and fro.
Prabhupāda: No. Believe... There is no question of believe. Suppose you are hungry. I give you some food. I say: "You are hungry. Take this food." So when you take this food, you'll believe that: "Yes, my hunger is now satisfied. I'm getting strength." That is belief. So you are hungry, and if I give you some food, if you don't eat, then how you can believe that your hunger is now satisfied? You must eat. So we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So why not chant? Where is the loss? If there is any gain, let me take it. That is belief. If I say: "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." so you have got tongue, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you chant, you'll believe me, because the result will be there. There is no difficulty. But if you say: "No, I shall not chant," then, then you suffer. What can be done? Anyone can chant. The child chants. If you say: "I don't believe in it. I cannot chant it." So many words. And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. You take so much trouble. "I cannot chant. I don't believe in it." And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Śrīla Prabhupāda gets into car) Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... (CC Adi 17.21). (break) And this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by farther entrapment. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. Jaḍa-vidyā, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of māyā. Why? Now anitya saṁsāra, cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows. He will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be, how we can become immortal. The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words. Therefore he is ass. Jībake karaye gādhā. This is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song. Anitya saṁsāra, this temporary world, he is attracted by this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method, we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death. And we are happy." That means you are becoming... This material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses. (break) (end)
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Yaśomatīnandana: We'll defeat them by giving them prasādam, right, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: To cure their disease, you have to give them prasādam, and give them chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is valuable. Just like a man suffering from jaundice, he sees everything yellow, and if you say, "No, it is not yellow. White" "No, I see yellow." What can be done, then the medicine has to be given. He'll never say it is white. He'll say it is yellow, because he is suffering. You have to cure. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness method is curing the disease of jaundice.
Hṛdayānanda: In other words, Prabhupāda, unless there are enough gentlemen to accept saintly persons, we cannot talk to them. (break)
Devotee (2): ...we have to defeat them by prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have to show them mercy. It is not a question of defeat. Just like a diseased person is talking nonsense, so doctors takes care, "All right, go on talking nonsense. Take this medicine." (devotees laugh) That is hospitalization.
Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again.
Prabhupāda: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured.
Dr. Wolfe: But that is just what they do not want to accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. They do not take good advice. That is foolishness. Foolishness means mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakipaya na śāntaye (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good advice, he'll be angry. Just like a serpent, if you bring the serpent and if you tell the serpent, "My dear friend serpent, you live with me. I shall give you daily nice food, milk and banana. You'll be very pleased." So the result will be that his poison will increase. One day he'll say, "Phaḥ! Phaḥ!" (laughter) So these rascals are like that.
Prajāpati: There's a large group today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, called humanists and they have decided that this concept of God is not very useful. We can solve all the problems ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. These are rascals. You see, humanists, they are professing humanists and they are killing so many human beings daily. You see? These are all escapism. What is called? Escaping? They could not find any, I mean to say, solace and now humanity... What they can do? There are so many people suffering in the human society. What they can do? Suppose they are opening hospitals. Is that guarantee for a cure of disease or no death? Then what is the humanity. You cannot do anything. You may advertise yourself, " I have opened so many hospitals and beds." But what you can do? Is that guarantee that there that there will be no disease and everyone will be cured, nobody will die. Then what is the humanitarianism. You cannot do anything.
Karandhara: They say, "the best use of a bad bargain."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?
Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are these astrologers, ah, are, can we believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo-science.
Prabhupāda: No. Astrology is a science. (break) ...that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things... this...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, "What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?" So he calculated. He said, "You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart." And he treated, he was cured.
Yaśomatīnandana: Vedic science is so perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He knew it.
Govardhana: There are many people who come like that to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They seem to experience a taste, and then they go away and everything seems to be lost. What is their...
Prabhupāda: Yes, they...
Govardhana: ...position, if they are not able to stick to it?
Prabhupāda: Just like a disease. Somebody cures very quickly, somebody cures, takes some time, according to the, what is called, acuteness of the disease. Somebody dies, somebody falls down. It is a treatment. Just like some of our students in Hawaii, due to bad association, they've fallen down. But whatever sincere service one has given, that will never be lost. That's a fact. It will again revive. For the time being, as it is said by Arjuna, kala-karma-tamoruddham. (?) Just like the sky is clear. It may be covered immediately by some cloud. And again the cloud is removed, the sky is clear. So this māyā is just like cloud. It comes where the temperature is very high, the cloud does not come. All depends on the circumstances.
Sudāmā: Now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa has sent you here to teach us this art of surrendering.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is experience. Suppose if I can say that "If you go hundred feet, then you'll fall in the water," is that very good scientific knowledge? It is a question of experience. Why do you take it as wonderful? "Oh, he said that if you go a hundred yards, you'll fall in the water. Now I have fallen in the water." That is your foolishness. Any fool can say like that. He must have little experience, that's all. That is not very wonderful thing. Neither it is creation by him. Experience.
Prajāpati: Then they can say, "Well if we can cure this blood disease, he will live."
Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.
Prajāpati: Kṛṣṇa has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to...
Prabhupāda: No, that free will is not to be given. It is already there. Rather, Kṛṣṇa says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." There is also free will. When you come to the Kṛṣṇa platform you serve Kṛṣṇa with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Kṛṣṇa nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Māyāvādī philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that "Stop this free will, and then you become happy." But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, "Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong." That is their proposition. Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Nirviśeṣa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirviśeṣa. And śūnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that.
Prajāpati: They try to get out of suffering by committing more sins.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not know how to get out of the suffering. (break)
Candanācārya: ...to tell people who think that they are not suffering that they are actually suffering.
Prabhupāda: That means it is difficult to teach insane person. That's all. Therefore the best means is, without teaching, "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and takes little prasādam and go home." Then his insanity will be cured. Then he will be all right. This is our point. We don't sermonize in the beginning. We simply request, "All right, you are very good. Nobody is more intelligent than you. Yes. Please come here, sit down, chant, dance. It is very nice, and takes little prasādam. Go home." That is our program. Then we teach. When he comes to his little sanity, then he will be cured. (break)
Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, the theologians call contrition. Means an actual thinking about how sinful we are, actually meditating on our sinful condition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply meditating on sinful condition, that is also good. But what is the counteraction? That we must know. Just like one man is suffering from some disease. He knows that "I have infected this disease." So simply thinking, "Oh, I have been infected by this disease," that is not good. He must go to a physician to cure it. That is intelligence.
Karandhara: Yes. Or it's like a criminal. If he commits a crime, it's nice that he laments, but he can't just lament. He has to start working positively.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he must go to the state and offer, "Please kill me." Then state may consider. "I have committed this murder, so the law is: I must give my life. So I am prepared." Then immediately he will be excused. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Well, but somebody said.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like the concept that if God is all-merciful, why He is so impartial, somebody making happy, somebody making suffering?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is mercifulness. Just like when doctor says, "You don't take anything today. You fast," that is mercy. That is mercy. It is good for him. By starving, he will be cured. That is mercy. And according to Manu-saṁhitā, when a man is hanged, that is mercy. If he is hanged... He has committed murder. He should be hanged so all his sinful reaction finished. Otherwise next birth, he has to suffer. He has to be killed by somebody else.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the tendency is that the sufferer wants to complain.
Prabhupāda: No, that they will complain. Just like when a man is ordered to be hanged, he will complain, "Just see the police, judge. He has ordered me to be hanged." That complaint will go on. Just like a child. When the doctor says, "Don't eat anything." He will complain. He will cry, "Why doctor says like that?" But it has to be done.
Karandhara: They will say, "Why? If that's what they deserve, why try to stop it?"
Prabhupāda: No, because he has come here to suffer. You cannot expect in the prison life a very comfortable life. You must suffer. But if somebody goes there, that "Don't commit stealing anymore. Come out and don't come here again," so that is required.
Rūpānuga: Just because a man goes in the prisonhouse doesn't mean his thieving is cured. He will come out a thief unless he is actually rectified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Otherwise again he will commit the same thing and again he will come. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Therefore he requires instruction, good instruction. Sometimes government invites. We were invited that Ahmedabad jail. You remember?
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, there was big meeting of the prisoners. Kīrtana, everything, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So by lacking the understanding, they say that God is not merciful. The sufferers. People, who are suffering, but by not knowing that it is the mercy of the Lord, we complain that God is not merciful. But he is impartial.
Prabhupāda: No, God is merciful, but this fool does not know because he is ignorant. The same thing, mother says. One child, she is feeding very sumptuously. Other one, "Oh, don't take it. You go away." Does it mean the mother is merciful to one child and not to the other? The child does not know it, he cries, "Why shall I not...? Why I shall not eat? Why I shall not eat?" So these foolish questions will be stopped as soon as one becomes God conscious.
Prajāpati: It is a question of business. Businessmen have so much control...
Prabhupāda: Business or whatever nonsense it may be, but our first proposal is that you become sinless. But they will not agree. They will remain sinful, and still they will say, "In God we believe, we trust," these slogans. "We go to church, we pray," like that. This is the defect. A man has come for your... You are a physician for treatment. As soon as the physician says that "You don't do this," you say, "I cannot give up this." Then how he will be cured? Let him rot. This is the position.
Śrutakīrti: You said to me in the garden the other day that there are two kind of ignorant people. One is ignorant innocent and the other is rascal ignorant, and that we should preach to the innocent. But all these politicians, they are not innocent, they are rascal.
Prabhupāda: They are rascal. They are rascal. Maybe some of them are innocent also. But mostly they are rascal because without being first-class rascal, one cannot go into politics. Just like if somebody says... Now, election. Somebody says that "You become vice-president." So why shall I become vice-president? Because I know I shall not be able to do anything. So why shall I waste my time? So another rascal, he will be ready. "Oh, offering vice-president?" But I know that if I want to manage the state, I have to make the people sinless. So if I propose that "Stop this slaughterhouse," so who will accept me? So why shall I go there? Nobody will accept me. Senate, senators, they will say, "Oh, this is business. This is impractical. You have no experience." He will immediately reject. So therefore mass of people must be conscious what is God, what is sin. So when they will be prepared, these rascals will be changed.
Prabhupāda: ...theologician?
Prajāpati: Here I am, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No theory?
Prajāpati: Actually, I was concerned this morning about inflation. The government and the newspapers, they say the biggest problem today is inflation. From our Kṛṣṇa conscious standpoint, how can we cure this problem of inflation?
Prabhupāda: It is very simple. Don't accept paper currency. It must be gold or some metal worth. Just like one dollar, it must be worth one dollar metal. Then it is solved. But they want to cheat. How it can be solved? Because if I pay you one dollar, I must pay you value for one dollar. But it is the cheating process is going on, "I pay you one dollar, a piece of paper. That's all." So you accept cheating, and I also cheat. Government allows. So how the problem can be solved? It is cheating. But the government allows it as law. And you accept, I accept. Then how they can be solved, solution? This is the solution.
Prajāpati: In the economy itself there isn't actually enough money to, that's even in the banks...
Prabhupāda: That is cheating. Therefore I say cheating. I have no money. I give you simply paper. I promise to pay hundred dollars. What is the use of that promise if I have no money? But you want to be cheated. I cheat you. That's all. You are satisfied of being cheated by me; so I take the advantage and I cheat you. I give you a paper. That's all.
| Page Title: | Cure (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 23 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=53, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 53 |