Expressions researched:
"criminal"
|"criminalities"
|"criminality"
|"criminally"
|"criminals"
Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Crime: What to do?"
Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Why and what to do?"
Prabhupāda: Every paper, there are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana, then lecture.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You chant?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only.
Prabhupāda: Now, the laws and legislative assembly there are, and there is punishment, there is court—everything there is. That we were discussing last night, that where is the honest men? Why? In spite of laws, legislative assembly, court and everything, the wholesale rogues and dishonest. Then what is the use of this? What is your answer? Why you are checked on the airport just like a culprit, criminal? They cannot trust even a gentleman, although he is educated, may be holding very good office, but still, he is not to be trusted. So this is the result of your so-called function, that there is no honest man throughout the whole world. Then, what is the use of such education? And what is the use of their living? Let them die. No hospital for them.
Prabhupāda: On the street there is sign board, "Keep to the left," or "Keep to the right." This is education. This is education. One must know how to run the car which side. Education means enlightenment. If you foolishly do something, immediately you become criminal. So education means to enlighten them to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education. But people do not know that. What is the meaning of education?
Prabhupāda: Because you are criminal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. If your father's good...
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, it is criminal. That is... You say that there are so many persons in the state. Not all of them are suffering in the prisonhouse. Only the criminals. So that is the proof that you are a criminal.
Hṛdayānanda: God could have... God could have created me in such a way that I would never have fallen down.
Prabhupāda: He has created, but He has given you independence.
Prabhupāda: ...no more desire of material enjoyment he is fit for sannyāsa. Anyone who sees: "Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very... A very beautiful woman is very nice," he should not think of taking sannyāsa. Viṣa-bhakṣaṇād apy asādhu: "Such desires is most abominable, more than taking poison." To commit suicide by taking poison is most abominable thing, because he's going to be a ghost. He'll be punished to become a ghost, those who commit suicide. Or, if one is suddenly killed and he has so many desires, he becomes ghost. Therefore viṣa-bhakṣaṇa, taking poison, and die untimely, is most abominable, or commit suicide. By the material law also, to attempt to commit suicide is criminal. You know that?
Devotees: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is criminal. (Bengali) If you take s annyāsa... Just like there are so many sannyāsīs, for filling up the belly. Wherever you go they give some alms. But in..., outside India, who cares for the sannyāsī? Then why you should be eager to take sannyāsa and cheat yourself? You cannot cheat others, but you can cheat yourself.
Prabhupāda: "I shall steal. I shall steal one cucumber." And another one thinks, "If I steal, I shall steal the diamond." But the stealing propensity is there, hīrā-cora or kṣīrā-cora. "Well, I am stealing one..., only one cucumber. That is not very dangerous." But, but to the eyes of law, both of them are criminal, either you take hīrā or kṣīrā. Big thief and small thief, that's all. Thief. You are thief. So we manufacture concoction that "Yes, I have got this stealing propensity. So I'll not steal diamond. I'll steal kṣīrā, not hīrā." This is only mental concoction, but he is a thief.
Madhudviṣa: So the criminal is very much encouraged, because he has only one chance in ten of getting caught whether he robs a bank or steals or rapes or something like that.
Prabhupāda: But for this purpose they are maintaining huge police force, and you are earning money and tax, that's all.
Rāmeśvara: The police all accept bribes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Rāmeśvara: They all accept bribes or they do some illegal business themselves with the criminals they capture.
Prabhupāda: Yes, regular... Every criminal has got organization to bribe the police. And the police does not take directly, and some in-between man, agent, he collects from the criminal and gives to the police. In India this is going on. I know that. A via-media man, he makes fortune. Yes. Whatever is collected, ten percent he takes, and balance is given to the police. There is a confectioner in Delhi. He is selling jalebi. You know jalebi?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature.
Prabhupāda: Clear-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example. Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the.... Conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear?
Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could...
Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity.
Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted to ask you...
Prabhupāda: No, no, why wonder? You just try to understand this common sense, that as soon as you go to the street, if the indication is that you must keep your car on the left side and as soon as you go to the right side, you become a criminal immediately. You can say, "What is the wrong? The right side or wrong side, I am driving my car," but it is criminal. You know or not know. Ignorance of law is no excuse. So just similarly there is law of God. So as soon as you violate, you must suffer. You see?
Prabhupāda: The same argument. If people do not become criminal, how the prison house will be maintained?
Dr. Patel: It is a prison house.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: God wants the prison house to...
Guru dāsa: No, no, first there are so many criminals, and then prison house has to be built. Because there are so many, a bigger prison house has to be built.
Prabhupāda: Just like now medical science is improving means hospital increasing. That means people are becoming more diseased. And they are taking it advanced.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He is supplying everything without any surrendering. (Hindi) But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. (break) Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer; it was twelve-thirty.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam. You'll see this verse.
Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution.
Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced...
Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the revolution.
Prabhupāda: But you are actually afraid. Why? You say.... You are a great philosopher: "Why should we be afraid?" But if I kill you, immediately you cry. Why? Don't cry. Let peacefully die. I kill you? Why do you protest, "This man is killing me, killing me! Save me! Save me! Save me! Police! Police! Police!" Why? Die peacefully. I am helping you to die peaceful. Why you make me criminal? (break) ...says, "Thou shall not kill." If killing is peaceful, dying is peaceful, why He has prohibited?
Devotee (1): Even though you may kill me, we still don't mind that.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not so fool I am going to kill you. That is an..., the business. But you die peacefully. Let him throw in the sea. Die peacefully.
Devotee (1): You said that the different living entities in lower forms of life, they became those lower forms of life due to their work in the human form?
Prabhupāda: Yes. A criminal is freed, but if he again commits criminal..., criminality, then again he's put into the jail, like that. (inaudible) ...his freedom, now make your choice. But if you misuse it, then again go.... māyāprāpte nivartante mṛtyuḥ saṁsāra vartmani. (break) ...go home back to Godhead. But if we do not take the chance, and misuse it, like animals, then again we go down. The process is to go back to home, back to Godhead, eternal life, blissful life. And other process is the cycle of birth and death in different species of life. So this human form of body is to make choice whether to continue the cycle of birth and death in different species of life, or you want to go home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." (laughing) Such shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking "I'm so living happily.... I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I'm eating." (laughing) He forgets actually he's put into the prison house to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is.... In Bengal they call social beggars (indistinct) Social beggars (indistinct) just like son-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is social beggar (indistinct), another in-law's house.
Prabhupāda: Obligation we must follow. That I have already said, that you have obligation to the state, you must pay tax. Otherwise you are criminal. So obligation must be there. If somebody is giving you protection, you must be obliged. If you don't feel obliged, then you'll be punished.
Prabhupāda: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Prabhupāda: Animal life means there is no sin. It is promotion. Because they are animal, their consciousness is not developed. Just like a child—a child, if he steals, that is not sin. He will not be criminally charged. He is child. A dog goes left to the right or right to the.... He is not criminal. But if you do, you are criminal.
Rāmeśvara: So Yamarāja does not direct the movements of the living entities as they are going automatically from animal body to higher body.
Prabhupāda: An animal is not jurisdiction of Yamarāja. The man is in the jurisdiction of.... Just like law is meant for man, not for the cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: This is the cause: because you are criminal, you are put into the prison house, but the relationship continues.
Arnold Weiss: What have we done to make ourselves criminals?
Prabhupāda: What you have done, you are put into prison?
Arnold Weiss: No, but what have we done to make ourselves criminals? What criminal acts have we performed?
Prabhupāda: That you might have forgotten. Because your nature is to forget, you cannot immediately remember what you are doing exactly this time yesterday. That is your... You have forgotten, but suppose you, without any knowledge, you do something criminal. So you must be punished. You may not know. You cannot say in the court that "I did not know by committing this act I'll be punished." So you know or not know. You have done it; you must be punished. You may not know what you have done, but that does not mean you can avoid punishment.
Prabhupāda: To any rascal. Does any rascal know that God is within? And He's witnessing all criminalities. Does he accept that? Then the yogis should not have illicit connection with their disciples. Do they believe God is...? It is simply business for earning money and getting woman. They have no other... Valueless. Therefore the government has said, "Fake." What is that? Actually that is a fact. So many rascals are coming, especially in America. Government, they are seeing, "What is this?" "Transcendental meditation and do whatever nonsense you like." Guru Maharajaji: "No use of books." Practically we are saving the whole world. What can be done? There are so many rascals. Let us do it sincerely. And if we also become victimized, then it will be stopped. Āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā bhakti. Anyone who says God is speaking with, immediately take him as rascal. God is so cheap that He will talk with rascals. He wants to talk, but he cannot hear. Lord Jesus advised him, "Don't steal." Why does he steal? If God is not advising from within, then why he's going at night when everyone's asleep. God is not dictating that "Don't steal"? But he will not care for God's instruction. Then it is whose fault? If I say that "You don't do it" and still you do it, then?
Prabhupāda: That is also Vedic conception, that sex between man and woman is not the cause of life. Unless the living soul comes in the proper situation, the man's secretion, woman's secretion combined together emulsifies, and it creates a proper situation for the rest of the soul. So contraceptive method means that emulsification is disturbed. It does not create the proper situation; therefore pregnancy does not happen. Or imperfect discharge. The main point is that the two discharges, they create a situation wherein the living entity comes and rests. Then it will grow. Not that that is the cause of life. The mixture of two secretions is not the cause of life. That creates a proper situation, and the life comes. And if the situation is not favorable, the soul cannot stay. It has to go to somewhere else. So by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he was to come to take shelter there, but this man and woman checked it, therefore it is sinful; he is to be punished. Just like one apartment is fixed up for me, and if somebody checks, does not allow me to enter, that is criminal. That is criminal, he is to be punished. Unlawful detention. But they do not know the laws of nature, how it is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). The law of nature is working very silently, subtle. But they do not know. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). Rascal is so fool that he thinks that "I can do everything, whatever I like." Similarly, killing of animal. "Life is eternal," one can argue, "then what is wrong? Even I kill, the soul is alive." No, the same argument that this soul was to live in a particular type of body under the laws of nature, and you have checked, and he has to take again a similar body to fulfill the duration. Therefore you have done criminality. I have got lease for live in this room for certain period. If prior to the expiry of the lease, if the landlord drives me away, that is illegal. He will be punished.
Prabhupāda: Everything is on that principle, that you (are) violating the laws of nature, therefore you are criminal, you have to be punished. You cannot do it. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.
Rūpānuga: Like if you are situated in your apartment and someone comes and forces you out of your apartment, that is like abortion.
Prabhupāda: That is abortion. By force you are destroying the shelter. Therefore you are criminal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can utilize this experiment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... When the life comes from outside, then there is germination.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the perfect theory.
Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Kṛṣṇa, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."
Interviewer: What... In your system, what do you propose to do with criminals?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you propose to do with criminals in your educational system? How will you reform them?
Prabhupāda: Criminals should be punished.
Interviewer: Punished?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: They are our lawbook. Just like we have books of philosophy, there are also books of law, how to govern society, how to deal with criminals. In other words, we are sticking to the Vedic literatures. As they instruct, we are following.
Interviewer: What do the Vedic literatures say about adultery?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about adultery, Prabhupāda? She wants to know what the Vedas say should be the... What is the reaction for adultery? How does one deal with an adulterer? If someone is an adulterer and he's caught, what should be the...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no such direct punishment, but it is prohibited. It is prohibited.
Interviewer: ...Was the most important thing. Would that ever allow you to or any one of the devotees, to engage in practices that would be considered unjust or criminal in a broader society?
Prabhupāda: That is his interest.
Interviewer: In terms of, you know, "This is for Kṛṣṇa. This is for developing God consciousness..."
Prabhupāda: No, if you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, you are interested for everyone. And if you are interested for a particular person, society, then you are not interested in Kṛṣṇa. The example I can give you. Just like if you supply food to your stomach, then you supply food to your eyes, ears, hands, legs, everything. But if you supply food to your eyes, then you become blind.
Bali-mardana: He wants to know that would you be justified in doing something that society would consider criminal, like, say...
Rāmeśvara: Like stealing for Kṛṣṇa, or killing for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Killing?
Rāmeśvara: If it is... Something that is judged by, say, the US government as criminal, would be still do it if it was for Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, we do not do anything which is harmful to the society. We do not do anything, not only to the human society. To the animal society, to the tree society, to the aquatic society, we do not do anything. We do not support the slaughterhouse, killing the animals. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to see every living entity on the same level. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). We are not cruel to anyone. Either he's a man or animal or tree or bird.
Prabhupāda: That is the goal. When the soul lives without this material body, that is his liberated life. Just like the criminal, he can live within the jail and without the jail. But he's thinking wrongly that without jail he cannot live. But his life without jail is real life.
Prabhupāda: Controlling one from coming to the jail life. If you give good instruction to a man, that "Don't become criminal, don't come to the jail, don't be engaged in the hammering business," it appears negative, but that is positive life.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the Kṛṣṇa people were not entirely free of harassment. Along the parade route three men, including one who said he was an Evangelical Christian minister, jeered at the parade and called on parade watchers to become Christians. 'Idol worship. This is absolutely ridiculous. Read the Bible,' cried one man who would identify himself only as a normal Christian. There was a brief scuffle when an Indian immigrant tried to tear a large placard out of the hands of another heckler. The placard read 'Turn or Burn.' The police broke things up but made no arrests. 'They are insulting us,' said the Kṛṣṇa follower who declined to identify himself. 'I'm a devotee of Kṛṣṇa and Christ. These people who are doing this in the name of Christ are criminals.' " Very strong statement. "Except for the hecklers, however, the parade was generally very well received by passersby, who enjoyed the three multi-hued floats, the sun, and the chanting and dancing of the young Kṛṣṇa marchers. 'I think it's great,' said Tyrone Adams of Philadelphia, who was paying a visit to his home town of Inglewood, New Jersey. 'I'm not religious, but they're all happy and dancing, and that is what life is all about.' " Even a nonreligious person said that. "In Washington Square a crowd of about three thousand, many of whom were there as part of the normal Sunday afternoon activities, heard Swami Prabhupāda deliver a lecture. Later the crowd was served a free vegetarian feast. Along the side, Kṛṣṇa followers sold Indian sweets, Kṛṣṇa scriptures, and what one speaker described as 'transcendental paraphernalia.' "
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Prabhupāda: Every one of us, we are attached to the body, and on account of being attached to the body the material activities are going on. These motorcars are running, karmīs are going here and there, what is the purpose? To maintain the road? Divasa śarīra-sāje. Miche nida-baśe gelo re rāti divasa śarīra-sāje. The body is given rest at night to revive, and daytime the activities for the matter of maintaining the body. But despite my all endeavor to maintain this body, it will not stay. It will give up my company and I'll have to accept another. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So Bali Mahārāja says "What is the use of such endeavor?" Therefore big, big saintly persons, they do not care for the body. Lie down anywhere. But they are very serious about spiritual advancement. And people in general, they are interested in maintaining the body. It is not that we should be neglectful to the body. That example is also there. Just like we require fruits and flowers. So if we neglect the tree, there will be no fruits and flower. If we cut the tree, it will dry up and there will be no fruits and flowers. The fruits and flowers, this human body, the fruits and flowers mean self-realization. Bali Mahārāja analyzes the family. He says family means rogues and thieves. Whatever you want, they'll take away. The pickpocket takes from your pocket and he becomes a criminal, and when the wife takes thousand dollars from your pocket, you do not consider her to be criminal. You laugh, "Oh, you have taken the money?" "Yes, I've taken." The business is a pickpocket. But in one case we say "criminal," and one case we say "friend." The business is the same. Svajanākhya-dasyu. Actually thieves and rogues, but we have named them "relatives."
Prabhupāda: He's not... Just like the same question, a criminal, if you say, "In the beginning, how he became criminal," is that very intelligent question? What do you think? A prisoner, criminal, is living in the prison house since a long time, and if you raise this question, "In the beginning, how he became a criminal," is that very intelligent question?
Atreya Ṛṣi: No, but not everyone is prisoner.
Prabhupāda: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pasate māyā tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Even if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I've come to you, make treatment. That's all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That's all. That is important thing.
Mrs. Sahani: We interpret it according to our own design.
Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot, if you have own design, don't touch Bhagavad-gītā. You make your own design and preach otherwise. Why you take advantage of the Bhagavad-gītā? This is criminal. If you have got a different philosophy, you preach. Everyone has got the right. But why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? When you take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and you speak nonsense, that is not good. That has murdered the whole thing. And practically we see that. Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you try to understand, you get the benefit and you life is successful. Besides that, interpretation when it is required. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. The law of interpretation is like this: when the things are not distinct, then you can interpret in your own way, I can interpret in my own way, but when the things are distinct, there is no question of interpretation.
Prabhupāda: Without hearing the good advice of Kṛṣṇa, he does it at his risk. That's all. He'll be arrested, he'll be put into jail. That's all. He'll suffer. But Kṛṣṇa gives him good counsel, "Don't do it." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He's situated in every heart, but if you persist to do something, He gives, "All right, do at your risk. What can I do?" You suffer. That independence you have got. Just like State. State does not advise anyone that "You become a criminal." But when he becomes criminal, then put into jail. State says, "Everyone go to the university, be educated," but if you make your choice, go to the prison house, you can make your choice. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says everyone, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). But if you make your choice to go to hell, what can He do?
Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is unjust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"?
Prabhupāda: That is their folly, they are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, this īśa, īśāvāsyam verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena, you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship, we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the business of the representative.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras, guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā. This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this... (aside:) (indistinct) Government is equal to everyone, but there is this department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected.
Prabhupāda: Then it is a farce. His purpose is served, but one who is misleading the..., he becomes criminal.
Jayapatākā: The man who gives, his purpose is served.
Prabhupāda: His purpose is served.
Jayapatākā: The man who takes the money is...
Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money... Instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be... Then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used in industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man: Cycle, as we see it is going on since millions of years. And it is likely to go on like this.
Prabhupāda: No. You can stop it. You are missing the chance because you are not serious about the end of life. You are not disgusted with this repetition of birth and death. That is foolishness. Just like a thief, a criminal. He is constantly put into the jail but he's not disgusted. He's committing again and again and again. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). This is going on. This is foolishness. He does not make any provision how to stop it. That is for want of knowledge. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Bringing up this life? What is the mystery to bringing one to the criminal court? What is the mystery?
Indian man: Karma.
Indian man: But we must be some start somewhere. Is it not so?
Prabhupāda: Start means, just like what is the starting point of a criminal? He wants to violate the laws and starting, criminal. You can stop it immediately and you can start immediately. It depends on you. If you violate the law, you become criminal. If you don't violate, remain in your own position. This is the start. As soon as you defy God and you try to become independent, then the starting is there immediately. And again when you surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Then you stop. So stopping and starting is in your hand. That is karma. It is not that starting is done by somebody else. You start your business. And you stop it.
Prabhupāda: This is the beginning. That beginning is always there. Just like you are a gentleman. You can become immediately criminal. This is in your hand. So you cannot find out the history because at any moment you can start.
Indian man: If the soul was once a gentleman...
Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal.
Indian man: Ah. This who took the birth of this human being or animal was a gentleman.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is gentleman by nature. But criminal by artificial means.
Prabhupāda: I am sitting in this room and if by force you drive me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal.
Indian man: Yes, that is true.
Prabhupāda: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy.
Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming...
Prabhupāda: So you cannot do that.
Dr. Kneupper: Is that because of the age?
Prabhupāda: No, this is the... Just like anyone who is in the prisonhouse. They are all criminals, but some of them are first-class prisoners, some of them second-class, some of them third-class, but they are prisoner. Similarly, according to different time, people are more or less god..., godless. So this time is more godless. The prisonhouse is filled up with more third-class prisoners.
Devotee: Rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot interpret on the words of God. You cannot interpret. Just like law. There is law by the government. You cannot interpret in your own way. You have to accept it. "Keep to the right"—no interpretation. You must keep to the right. That is law. If you say, "What is wrong if I go to the left?" Actually if one goes to the left, it is not very... But you cannot do it. As soon as you do it, you are criminal. You'll be punished. That is law. The dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is dharma. If you want a general definition of dharma, or religion, that is given in the śāstra that "Dharma means the law given by God." That is dharma. You cannot manufacture dharma. And because we are manufacturing so many dharmas, mental concoctions, there is no peace. And Kṛṣṇa therefore says that "You give up this rascaldom." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "civil suicide." Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide. Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do. So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya... (BG 18.66). That is gṛha-dharma. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think... Suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say "God." And why not now?
Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom.
Prabhupāda: You can know from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is open to everyone. If you cannot understand, then go to guru. He will explain to you. "And how to know it?" You cannot say. "Keep to the left" is there. You cannot say that "I did not know the law." You have deviated. Why you have gone to the right? The signboard is there, "Keep to the left." You have gone to the right; you are criminal, must be punished. So Kṛṣṇa comes personally, and He is giving instruction. How can you say, "How to know?" This is criminal. This is criminal to say that you do not know what to do; you do not see God. God has given the law. There is no question how to know. Know it! Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Tad viddhi. Know it! Why you are neglecting? Tad viddhi. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That, if you do not... What is called? Ignorance of law is no excuse. You cannot say in the court, "Sir, I did not know the law." Aiye. You know or not know; you have violated the law; you must be punished. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: You are thrown in the lower yonis.
Prabhupāda: Lower? Yes, yes. Lower... That is mṛtyu-saṁsāra. Suppose next life I become dog. Then my becoming very big scientist, big lawyer, big this and that, everything finished. But that law is not in your hand. After death, you cannot say, "Mother nature, you are giving this body. I don't like it." No. "It is not in your liking. It is my liking." Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). When you are criminal, you are under the grip of the magistrate. If he puts you in jail, you cannot say that "I don't like." No. You like or not; you must go. Who cares for your liking? Therefore mūḍha. Prakṛteḥ. Prakṛti, the laws of nature, is working in its own way. Nobody can change it. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Those who are rascal, they are thinking, "I am independent. Whatever I like, I can do. There is no God. There is no law." Kartāham iti manyate. That should be avoided, that I am independent. Means that knowledge is lacking at the present moment. "Whatever I think, I can do. It is private. Religion is private." And big, big swamis are supporting. "Yes, religion is your private."
Rāmeśvara: Then they say, "The next best thing to do after you get the deprogramming is to hold a press conference to explain all the reasons that there is a need for criminal conviction of destructive cult leaders. Have ex-victims, especially of Hare Kṛṣṇa, present. The truth of their personal experiences carry great weight with reporters. It is now necessary to awaken America to how widespread..."
Prabhupāda: I... In the beginning... I have told many times when I first went that "If I say these prohibitions, who will accept?" And now it has taken a shape, it has become a problem throughout the country. I was thinking, "Who will hear me? As soon as I'll say this, they'll say, 'Go home.' " But by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement it has become a problem. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. It has become a problem for them; it is success for me. Yes. I presented something which is now a problem for them.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) That child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together."
Jagadīśa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.
Jagadīśa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: They took the brain from a known criminal and put it inside the dead man. So when he came back to life he was a demon. That's their only problem, they say. If they'd only taken a brain from a dead body who was a good man, then everything would have been all right.
Prabhupāda: Why do you not take the brain of scientist and make another scientist? Why you should, they should regret "That this scientist is dead"?
Rāmeśvara: That's their goal. That is their goal.
Prabhupāda: Goal that may be, but what they have done? That is the first thing.
Prabhupāda: Hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this sex is the more dangerous than drinking poison for person who are going to advance in spiritual understanding. And they are talking—"Sex is the way of perfection." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana apy asādhu. If one takes poison, that is criminal. So this sex indulgence in devotional life is more dangerous than poison-taking, criminality. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... But the sahajiyās, they are taking that through sex their life... What Gosvāmī? Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa. Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa, they read, and they say, "Oh, through sex one can achieve the highest." They publicly say in Vṛndāvana. "I am Kṛṣṇa, and parakīya rasa. You have to select one woman who is not your wife, kept wife, parakīya."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And argue line by line.
Hari-śauri: Yes. We can show them that they're actually the criminals.
Prabhupāda: Take this. Immediately write. Then it will be our preaching. In the court the books will be read, and we shall put our argument to support it. Let all the scientists, philosopher, come there. Make like that. So we have to go there now? No. Not yet.
Hari-śauri: In a few minutes.
Satsvarūpa: I'll write to New York and tell them the strategy.
Prabhupāda: Yes! Why not? You just consider, yourself. You are three GBCs. And give your opinion. This is my suggestion. The same suggestion as Dr. Rajaveri(?) Ghosh said, "Yes, my lord, I have brought the whole library to teach you law."
Prabhupāda: So many things going on. Very difficult to lead spiritual life.
Actually one who is serious going back to home, back to Godhead—for such person, one should be niṣkiñcana, no connection with these material woman and money. Niṣkiñcanasya. (break) But I am not collecting money for sense gratification. For preaching work. Kṛṣṇa-sambandhe... Kṛṣṇa sabaya yāhā haya anukula, viṣaya boliyā tāhā haya phul.(?) The anything which is favorable to my preaching work, that is not viṣaya. Ta phul.(?) Then that is mistake. Why the air is misty? That... (break) Similarly, you can kill. You have to see it, what for they are killing. Stalin was killing for his own sense gratification. He wanted to maintain himself in the position, and anyone going against him, he would kill. That was not for the citizens' benefit. For his own benefit. Therefore he's a criminal.
Prabhupāda: Children has got also the same thing. Why the father stops? Children want to play. They do not like to go to school. Father does not like it. Is that father's attempt to check the child's freedom? Every father is doing that. The government is doing that. Why government is checking criminality? Hm? Why government chastising those who are criminals?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because what they are doing is not good for themselves and for others.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What the criminal does is not good for himself nor for anyone else. So the government chastises them.
Prabhupāda: What is the definition of criminality?
Prabhupāda: That is... Your criminal law will also criticize that "Why you are giving this instruction?" The two parties must be there, duality. If I accuse you of some criminality, you'll say, "Why you are checking my freedom?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have forgotten God, they no longer understand what is best for themselves.
Prabhupāda: They are like animals.
Hari-śauri: Cheater.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheater, one must be due to ignorance. Generally one who is fool, he commits criminality. No sane man does it. Sane means he knows what is what. He does not commit mistake. But to commit mistake means he's insane, ignorant. That is not innocence-ignorance, foolish.
Prabhupāda: And what you have gained? Criminals, fire brigade, always "dungdungdungdungdungdung," in every big city. And criminality increasing. Do you think it is civilization? Always anxious, and covering yourself by drinking, intoxicated. In New York street you would go out ordinary-hell! Two sides hell.
Rāmeśvara: The whole city is managed by criminals. But they have given us permission to sell books in the airport.
Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: From the newspaper I see that the United States is praising a lot this election.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The democratic campaign. But from our point of view, these are not the solution. Temporary. Temporary relief. Daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) You know this? Daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya. I have spoken several times in... Formerly, the criminal was taken in the middle of the river and he was drowned. And when he was suffocating, he's held up. Then he, ahhh (takes deep breath). This relief is like that. That means as soon as he takes little strength, again, put again. Then daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) These rascals are like that. For the time being there is little relief: "Oh, we are now free from the leaders." And there is another hand is being created. Bābājī or something like that. Then again they shall put his... This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Killing affair should not be regarded, criminal affair.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: They can kill even the president. Because they are meat-eaters, there is no mercy. What is mercy, they do not know. Vinā paśu-ghnāt. Paśu-ghna. Mercilessly they kill animals, and they become accustomed to merciless...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: That is Muhammadans' theory. They can do merciless thing.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, forget the past. Push forward.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you once said that sometimes Kṛṣṇa tests to see how sincerely the devotee is determined.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa not only tests but punishes those who are criminals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Criminals.
Prabhupāda: Like Kṛṣṇa punished Durvāsā Muni. He was criminal against Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. Kṛṣṇa never tolerates. Vaiṣṇava may tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will never tolerate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Prabhupāda: And it has gone to the Central Government?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that. I guess you must have got that information from the newspaper. I didn't know that. I mean just see. Fifty of them together stealing the grass. That's organized. Two hundred fifty people waiting in the bushes, knowing that we will try to stop them from stealing, and suddenly they all rush into the gate, destroy the gate, cut the wires, cut the telephone line, destroy the waterpumps. Every one of these things is criminal. We did not do anything wrong, no wrong in any case. And yet they arrest us. The American government... Actually this should be pushed from the American government. That will have tremendous effect. We should let the American government defend us.
Prabhupāda: Is the Consulate has come?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The Consulate went to Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: We already said that this is a Communist plan.
Prabhupāda: No, so many other things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who gives them the right to cut the telephone wire? That's criminal. That is against the law of the government. You're cutting government property. That's not our property. Telephone wires, all those things, electric wire.
Prabhupāda: That is purposefully planned.
Prabhupāda: And telephone was cut.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. We didn't cut our own telephone lines. Whoever cut it should be taken to court. Criminal. Destroying government property. There's no mention here of a cow, that we beat any cow. None of these things are mentioned.
Prabhupāda: So many stories fabricated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifty men stealing our crops. I've seen in Māyāpur. When men steal crops, three, four men go. I never saw fifty men. Highly organized. They must have paid them to do this.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
| Page Title: | Criminal (Conversations 1976 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | Rishab, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=70, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 70 |