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Church (Conv. 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"church" |"churches" |"churchgoing" |"churchianity" |"churchtaker" |"ecclesiastical" |"ecclesiastics"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya.... Therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Just like children—"Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion?

Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason...

Prabhupāda: This is our...

Acyutānanda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.

Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill;" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.

Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion?

Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.

Prabhupāda: There is no.... So, go on reading.

Morning Walk -- January 17, 1976, Mayapur:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe that's the one. What is the size of the Caitanya Matha? That's the biggest one here? The biggest in Bengal? The Caitanya Matha temple, a hundred and ten foot, is the biggest temple in Bengal. There's not many big temples here... But that church is bigger in Chowringhee. I think that church that the British built...

Prabhupāda: Chowringhee?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Near Victoria Memorial, that church?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. St. Paul's Cathedral.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that's higher than...

Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes, that's big.

Bhavānanda: Also in Krishnanagar, big Catholic church.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Five minutes. (break)

Jayapatāka: ...festival devotees will pay one rupee.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a short walk.

Prabhupāda: Why? They should come by walking.

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Duḥkha jaye sampatti paiye de bhagavān, jayo kara. (Bengali) Whole world, they have accepted God as order-supplier. "I order, and You supply." They all, this Christian Church also: "God, give us our daily bread."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if God doesn't give, then God is dead.

Prabhupāda: Dead. This is going on. And our prayer is, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4) "I don't want anything. Simply engage me in Your service." Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī. This is real prayer, which is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? I was reading in a magazine that in Germany the people used to be pious, but after the Second World War...

Prabhupāda: They became atheist.

Morning Walk -- February 6, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Dhāma. Therefore it is called dhāma. Dhāma means not material world. Goloka-dhāma, Vṛndāvana-dhāma. So dhāma is not material world. (aside:) Not to go away. (break) ...visible with these eyes, similarly, dhāma also is not visible with these eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). That is dhāma. Premāñjana.

Jagadīśa: (break) In Toronto, Śrīla Prabhupāda... When we purchased the new church in Toronto we sold all the church pews. And Billy Graham... Do you know who Billy Graham is? He's an Evangelist preacher in the United States. He sometimes went to that church to preach. So when we sold the pews we would tell people that "Billy Graham sat in this pew," and they would become excited to purchase.

Prabhupāda: So it was sold in good price?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice.

Morning Walk -- March 13, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg.

Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there are professors of English, all different departments, appreciating.

Devotee (1): This man was selected to the World Council of Churches for the representative of Hinduism in their large meeting, and he just recently did a review on your Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: What he says?

Satsvarūpa: "Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the Indian classic par excellence on bhakti-yoga, attributed to Vyāsa, is one of the most important and influential religio-philosophical works within the Vedic tradition. Thanks to the devoted and scholarly endeavors of Śrī A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the entire work of twelve cantos will be available in a superb English edition for the benefit of the English-reading peoples.

Talk at Radha-Govinda Mandir -- March 24, 1976, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: In those days who cared for the father? We were coming and.... It was not so congested. There was a riot, Hindu-Muslim riot. This quarter is Muslim quarter. Oh, in 1911 that was a dangerous day. Perhaps I would have been killed. Riot. Very big riot. This was my school, here, this building. This was my school. And college was Scottish Churches. In this ground we used to play football. Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You used to take Jagannātha right through the streets?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. The Western civilization is like that. Now you have to make a thorough change. The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man?

Madhudviṣa: I was reading in the paper the other day, how the Catholic church has drastically declined in the last ten years.

Prabhupāda: They must decline.

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1976, Mayapur:

Madhudviṣa: ...already. For our temples. In Toronto, I think, we bought a Catholic church, and Montreal and Australia also, that was Catholic property. They are selling all their property off because they cannot afford to maintain.

Pañcadraviḍa: Still in South America the people are Catholic and pious...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) we wanted to purchase a convent...

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How dilapidated.

Madhudviṣa: How envious they were. We wanted to purchase the convent, and they said they would sell us only if they could tear down the church. They wouldn't sell it to us unless they could tear down the church.

Passers-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1976, Mayapur:

Madhudviṣa: It would have been a big defeat if they had sold us that church and we moved in.

Devotee (1): (indistinct) ...United States, they have taken eight million Catholics in Philadelphia. Just before the time of our Rathayātrā I think...

Pañcadraviḍa: When they took Rādhā-Dāmodara down to Mexico, all the Catholics thought it was Virgin Mary and Jesus, and they all came to offer their obeisances. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Which way I shall go? This way?

Devotee (2): This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Lokanātha: Last time there was a big crowd to hear you, Prabhupāda—the Christians.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: We can get everything, but the government will not allow. That is the difficulty. We can get grain, food...

Dr. Patel: I think grain they would allow. So many Christian institutions from America donate butter and ghee and rice and wheat to the Christian churches here. I think they would not object. We have not tried, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: No, we are trying. In Bengal they are trying.

Dr. Patel: Not here. They allow. How we are getting that Australian ghee all the time?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They allow from Australia.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They should allow from States also.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...milk is cheaper than the bottle.

Morning Walk -- April 15, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. That is wanted.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress.

Prabhupāda: No, they do not know.

Dr. Patel: It is abstract materialism, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of religious teachings of sanātana-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No, that...

Dr. Patel: The spirit is more important than material.

Prabhupāda: No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise we are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take.... Our engagement. Twenty-four hours.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (3): No. Could I just share one experience, and I'd like your feeling on this. This is one thing that, the reason that we come throughout the world, and that is that we believe that in the year 1820 that there was a young man, Joseph Smith, who was confused about religion. And in this confused state he sought the Bible, and he read James 1:5, and the inspiration was to go seek God and ask Him in prayer. And in his prayer he had an experience where God the father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him. Now, see this is what we base our religion about, is that a young man saw God and was visited by Him and His son Jesus Christ, and through him They used him as an instrument in restoring His true church. Now that's our testimony, and we believe this with all of our heart. We feel that it's built upon the spirit and that it's through prayer and study that we've found this. Now, what's your feeling about that?

Prabhupāda: No, if he has seen God, then God has given him some message.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Guest (4): We believe that the message that God gave him was that the true church was not on the earth, and we believe that through Joseph Smith the true gospel of Jesus Christ was once again restored to the earth with all its power, with all its authority, and with the holy priesthood.

Prabhupāda: So Jesus Christ is authorized.

Guest (4): Yes, Jesus Christ...

Prabhupāda: So what is the order of Jesus Christ?

Guest (4): We believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right, but what Jesus Christ says?

Devotee (4): What does Jesus Christ say? What is Jesus Christ saying? What are his instructions?

Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ, we believe that when he lived as a mortal man, he organized the church, and the people followed him.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: So what is the message?

Guest (3): Well, the message is that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God.

Prabhupāda: So what is the church of Jesus Christ?

Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ's church, that's simply it.

Prabhupāda: What is that? What does he say, that "You do this. You do not do this"?

Guest (3): I don't understand what...

Guest (4): You mean the Commandments and...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): Oh. There's many Commandments in the church. We believe that Jesus Christ commanded Joseph Smith to restore the church.

Prabhupāda: No, what is the Commandments?

Guest (4): This is one of them, that the church should be run by a prophet and twelve apostles. We believe in what is called the word of wisdom. This is abstaining.... This is much like your...

Prabhupāda: Church. Church means.... Suppose.... There is no specific message that "The church should be conducted on this principle"? Is there any such message?

Guest (3): I think that the real thing is people have to accept Christ as their savior and make his atonement effective.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Chastity is being followed?

Guest (3): Yes. The church teaches it, and people who do not obey it are bringing condemnation upon themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my injunct..., that if.... The commandment is that women should be chaste.

Guest (3): Exactly.

Prabhupāda: And you should not kill. But all the Christians are killing.

Guest (3): Well...

Prabhupāda: And it is very hard to find out a woman chaste.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: But how the prophet can disobey the original orders of God or Christ?

Guest (4): How can a prophet disobey? We don't.... A prophet doesn't disobey. We believe that the prophet at the head of our church, Spencer W. Kimble, speaks with God...

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Guest (3): And he conveys His messages on to us as church members and on to the rest of the world.

Prabhupāda: My point is.... Just like the two points here: chastity and nonviolence. But this is not being carried out.

Guest (3): Well, we agree.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the prophet and where is the followers?

Guest (3): Well, see, the prophet is teaching the people about this and teaching them to live it.

Prabhupāda: That means people are not obeying the prophet.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Guest (2): That's true. And we have many people who are in the church who strive to teach people of the church to eat more grains and milk products and...

Guru-kṛpā: That is not the point Śrīla Prabhupāda is making.

Prabhupāda: No, point is that every living being has to eat another living being. That is the law of nature.

Guest (2): Right.

Prabhupāda: Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. That we admit. But in the human form of life if one thinks—now they are eating—that "Another living being is my food, so I kill my own child and eat," so you mean to say to apply the same law, that "A living entity is food for another living entity.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: At least three times, four times we drink water, everyone. So when you drink, and the water quenches your thirst, and you feel some taste nice, Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "I am that taste." So where is my difficulty to remember God? If you simply remember this formula, that "The taste of the water is Kṛṣṇa," immediately you remember Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. "I am the shining of the sun, shining of the moon." So who does not see the shining of the sun and the moon? At night you see the shining of moon, and day you see.... So where is the chance of forgetting God? There is no chance at all. As soon as you see the sunshine even, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as see the moonshine, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you taste water, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." So in this way there is list that you cannot avoid the chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa. Every moment, every time, you can remember Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa, God, says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You always think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Kṛṣṇa? Unless I purposefully do not do it. It is not that when I go to the church and temple I can remember. I can remember Him twenty-four hours. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Then how he's living? And the elephant in the forest of Africa. Who is going to give them food? How they're living? From the elephant to the ant, He's providing, and He cannot provide you. This is all mistaken idea. You haven't got to ask. Everything is there. Because in the.... (break) ...accustomed to sense gratification life after life, we are habituated to ask. That is a habit. "Habit is the second nature." Actually, we don't require. These dogs, they are not asking, going to the church for asking, "God, give us our daily bread." Where he is getting bread? (break) Dogs are enjoying, but they are not asking bread from God. And where they are getting? (bird chirping in background.) (break) ...how he's chirping so nicely. But he has no anxiety. He knows that "I'll get my food anywhere. That's all right." The bird has got the sense, confidence: "Yes, I'll get." And that's a fact.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Because they do not know the karma. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). According to one's activities, pious or impious, he gets the next birth. That is quite reasonable. But they do not believe in karma. When I was student in Scottish Churches College, so we had to attend class, half an hour, Bible. So the Dr. Urquhart, he did.... The argument was: "So if karma is there and I am suffering for my karma, who is the witness?" But because they do not know that the witness is God.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: So that is real philosophy. That is real philosophy.

Hayagrīva: This is the.... All of this evolved from the church fathers.

Prabhupāda: That is all defective, unscrupulous.

Rādhāvallabha: (break) ...come up to us on saṅkīrtana, and they are smoking a cigarette, and they say, "Do you accept Jesus Christ?"

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rādhāvallabha: They say, "You cannot be successful unless you accept Jesus Christ like us." But they were smoking.

Prabhupāda: We accept. Rather, you do not accept. Jesus Christ said "Thou shall not kill." We strictly observe that, but you kill. You are not a Christian.

Room Conversation -- Honolulu, May 20, 1976 :

Prabhupāda: Therefore you see all the pictures in the Church, he is carrying the cross, and he is pushing, pushed by the government men. How miserable condition they show.

Devotee (2): They don't have any...

Prabhupāda: They do not have picture, just like we show Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Such rotten things. That is going on in religion. They love, they love means they want to see their lovable suffering so much, you see. Only then (indistinct). This, we want to see our lovable object that He is enjoying. Young boy, (indistinct) gopīs, and nice night, playing flute, He's enjoying. That we want to see. And they want to see that lovable he is suffering. How they can see it, if there is love?

Devotee (2): If they loved him they would not be able to stand to look at that.

Prabhupāda: That is going on in the name of religion. Therefore so many rogues, rascals. Rascals. We say clearly (indistinct). Simply rogues.

Room Conversation -- Honolulu, May 20, 1976 :

Prabhupāda: That is.... Yes. Very good example. Are you, are you going to some church (indistinct).

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So, the same picture, that Jesus Christ is carrying his cross, and falling. (indistinct) and you go enjoy. (long pause) In Māyāpur you have seen Yoga-pīṭha, Caitanya Mahāprabhu birthplace? Yoga-pīṭha.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu...

Devotee (2): Oh.

Prabhupāda: ...and two sides, his two wives. Not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is worshiped as a sannyāsī.

Morning Walk -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are more and more now.

Rāmeśvara: The church does this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More and more our society is getting respect because of the big buildings.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Rāmeśvara: New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why, I think your Guru Mahārāja was in favor like that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he said that potthor katha ke usa cane gauri ber katha sundari(?) If you remain poor, then nobody will be...

Rāmeśvara: And this diorama project will also give us a lot of respect.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got many things, stock. We shall exhibit gradually. We have got many things in stock.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: It will decompose.

Rāmeśvara: So then everything, the church, everything.

Prabhupāda: Artificially.... Gundan camas kapalethabada-masa. (?) By artificial means you can keep a thing alive for six months. But what is destiny, that will go on all the time. Baḍa māsa. Baḍa māsa: "all the year."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like that girl's body.

Prabhupāda: Gundan camas kapalethabada...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one girl that had some disease, she was unconscious for how long? A year and a half?

Rāmeśvara: She was, practically speaking, dead, but by artificial means, they kept the heart pumping.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For one and a half years.

Rāmeśvara: And they thought that "If I pull out the electrical plug on this machine, then it will be murder." She was already dead, and the doctors fixed this machine to keep her heart.... Now they were afraid of pull out the plug.

Prabhupāda: Not dead. Not dead. Dead cannot be continued by electricity. That is not possible.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Christianity's already dead. We are purchasing the churches.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means dead.

Hari-śauri: And their priests are coming to join us as well.

Prabhupāda: See, this temple, this was closed. There was no men. And now balcony. In the same place, the same countrymen. That is the proof. This building. These boys and girls and men, they are not imported from India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are formerly Christians and Jews.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These buildings are churches, but they're all closed. But our churches are lively, even at four in the morning.

Prabhupāda: From four o'clock up to ten.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now there's twenty-four-hour kīrtana. So all day and night.

Rāmeśvara: (break).... on the decline of the churches in America, and they say that the biggest reason in the last few years is that Pope, he issued one big statement against birth control and abortion. He said, "Catholics cannot practice birth control and should never have abortion." So they did not like this. So that is the biggest reason for the decrease in attending the church. They broke away from the authority.

Prabhupāda: That means if the church allows sense gratification without restriction, then they'll attend church. That is the conclusion.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That means, conclusion is, on account of sinful life churches being closed. Not the Pope, but the sinful. Pope said, "You cannot do this sinful," and they are sinful. Therefore they desert their church.

Rāmeśvara: Even the priests, they said that when the Pope issued that document, they lost faith in him as the representative of God.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Rascal priests also so sinful. Yes, they're supporting homosex. So when the priests are sinful, the public is sinful, how the church will go on? Churches, they are expecting church must support abortion and child killing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, it is progressive. They feel that is the progressive way to think.

Rāmeśvara: And the church should not interfere with their.... That is their decision.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is personal life.

Prabhupāda: This is the rascal.

Morning Walk -- June 7, 1976, Los Angeles:

Mahendra: We were not attached to that conception. When you explained personal nature of God and the many arguments in favor, gradually we were convinced. But then there are those also who are attached to that conception, like in the Bhagavad-gītā it says those who are attached to that conception...

Prabhupāda: No, we can see every day the impersonal feature of the sun—the sunlight, the sunshine. But which is important, the sunshine is important or the sun is important? Daily we see. The sunshine is spread all over the universe, very big. But what is the use of this big, if there is no sun globe?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at these boxes here. These are from different churches and religious institutions. They put their pamphlets for people to take. (break)

Rāmeśvara: (in car) ...that in Kṛṣṇa consciousness fasting and feasting are the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Could you explain that?

Prabhupāda: Fasting and feasting is the same?

Rāmeśvara: That what I, they told me.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa, you fast or feast, the same thing. Better fast. (laughter)

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So instead of becoming devotee, he wants to become God. And that is the problem. But it is the most confidential part of knowledge. Instead of carrying out the orders of God, he wants to order God. You see? Even in the lower stages of devotion, that mentality continues, that "God is order-supplier. If God carries my order, then I accept God. Otherwise I reject Him." In Germany... One of my German Godbrothers, he told me in 1935 that in the last world war, many people became atheists. They went to the church and prayed, especially women, "My husband may come back," "My brother may come back," or "My father may come back." Because all men went to the war field, and the women were there, they prayed in the churches. But nobody came back, and they became atheists. That means they took God as order-supplier. They ordered God, "Return my father. Return my brother. Return my husband," and God did not return. "Ah, there is no God. I don't care." This is going on. God is order-supplier. But our philosophy is God is not order-supplier; we are order-carriers of God. Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Just like Arjuna became. He became carrier of order of Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Christian religion is speculation. All these philosophers, talking on Christian religion, speculating.... No clear idea.

Hari-śauri: These church fathers that we've just done on the philosophy book, they are simply speculating about what was in the original Bible.

Prabhupāda: No clear conception, scientific idea. Therefore educated persons, they are not interested. "God, give us daily bread." They will say, "Why we shall go to church for begging bread? We can manufacture it, large quantity." (laughs) Why they should go? Formality: "God, give us our daily bread." "Just open a big factory and eat as much bread as we like. Why should we go to God?" (break) ...Jawaharlal Nehru, he took this view, that "For economic development why should you go to the temple, ask this demigod, that demigod, 'Give me this. Give me this'? Develop industry and get money to enjoy." That is his.... (break)...description of God in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This is God, the origin of everything. Who is there who can challenge this explanation, "The origin of everything"? Now, what is that origin? Whether it is matter or sentient? No. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). He knows everything. Therefore He's a person. Otherwise, how He can be origin of everything? Anvayād itarataś ca. Suppose I.... If I have manufactured this car, then I know every nook and corner of this car, how I have manufactured. One who has manufactured, he knows how it is working, every minute feature. Even an expert driver, he knows how many parts are there, which part is.... Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. If he's abhijñaḥ, if he's completely cognizant of every part of the whole creation, then He has created.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Richard: Right, but those people who study say, okay, to use an example, the Pope. Now there is a man who has dedicated his whole life, publicly, personally, spiritually, however you define it, to Christianity, specifically to the Catholic Church. Now apparently, and for all intents and purposes, his life seems to work for him.

Prabhupāda: The thing is, the Catholic Church is the original Church, I think.

Richard: The original Christian Church, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then why there are so many varieties?

Richard: Well, because...

Prabhupāda: Now hundreds and thousands of churches are there.

Richard: Right. Other people find that...

Prabhupāda: That means they don't like Catholic Church. They don't like. So they are missing the point.

Richard: Of the Catholic Church.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Richard: True, I agree. But is the point of the Catholic Church the only point that's to be made?

Prabhupāda: And if you accept Christianity, then the Catholic process, I think—I do not know—that is only way.

Richard: But is the point that the Catholic Church makes the only point to be made?

Prabhupāda: Not Catholic. I mean to say, any church original, authoritatively, that is genuine. If you deviate from that, then you cannot claim to that school.

Rāmeśvara: It's an example that if the Catholic Church is presenting the teachings of Jesus as it is, and then later on other churches deviate a little, then to deviate from the teachings of Jesus is bad, and to stick strictly to the teachings of Jesus is the only way, in Christianity. That's the idea.

Richard: Yes, but the goal is similar in Christianity.

Prabhupāda: The goal cannot be similar. If you deviate, the goal is different.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Richard: Yes, I think you are talking about specific...

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is.... Take Christian religion. So going to the church, it is practicing how to establish relationship with Christ and God. So after death, if he's perfect, he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Richard: Um hm, right.

Prabhupāda: So this is practice. If one is interested in going back to home, back to Godhead, then this is the only way.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But if somebody says that "I don't require to go to church for happiness. I find happiness by drinking. Let me go to the brothel and drink," that is also happiness. You cannot say. How can you say, "I don't care to go to the church. I am getting happiness here."

Richard: I'm thinking of it in a larger sense than that.

Prabhupāda: Happiness must be happiness. It doesn't mean that because larger accepts something happiness, that is happiness. No. Happiness must be real happiness.

Richard: Okay, what do you define as real happiness?

Prabhupāda: One may like it or not like it, that is not the question. Happiness is real happiness.

Richard: Right. Okay, that's what I'm talking about, spiritual happiness.

Prabhupāda: So if you simply say happiness, if you do not explain what is real happiness, then somebody will say, "I'm feeling happiness by drinking here. Why you are asking me to go to the church? You go, I don't go." That's all. Then you have to explain what is real happiness. Whether that real happiness is obtainable by going to the church or going to the brothel, liquor house?

Richard: Well, I don't think that any...

Prabhupāda: You don't think, but he thinks that "Here is happiness." You cannot induce him. He thinks. Just like few minutes ago you said that there is no obstacle, but we think there is obstacle. There is different thoughts. They don't care what is God, what is.... "I don't want to know what is God. I'm getting happiness," finished.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: You see. I have already explained. One is getting happiness by drinking, and one is getting happiness by going to the church. You cannot say that they are the same.

Richard: Well I think they're the same in intent.

Prabhupāda: Now what do you mean by that? First of all, describe what is happiness, whether drinking is happiness or going to the church is happiness. Therefore you have to define what is happiness. Then we have to select whether this happiness is obtainable in the liquor shop or in the church. You must have clear idea of happiness. And if you speak generally, then he will say, "I am getting happiness; why you are insisting me go to the church? I am getting happiness." Therefore you have to define what is happiness.

Richard: Okay, I would say happiness is the pursuit of, to you, what makes your life work, worthwhile.

Prabhupāda: We are not working, we are not interested in working.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Richard: Sure, it's his reality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then why should you canvass him, "Please come to the church and accept Christianity"?

Richard: Frankly, I don't know. I don't really know why he should be asked to go to church.

Prabhupāda: Therefore.... Then there is no need of church. Everyone can do whatever he thinks reality. That is no standard reality.

Richard: No, reality is not in itself a goal. It just is.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the goal?

Richard: I would say, you know, we discussed this earlier, it's a, it's trying to find what makes one's life worthwhile.

Prabhupāda: Trying to find, that means you do not know.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: The Parliament and that.... What is that church?

Hari-śauri: Westminster Abbey?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They charge.

Hari-śauri: Guided tour. They cannot live there themselves. They can only live there in the winter.

Prabhupāda: They collect very sufficiently. I have seen. Again, inside you go, and a particular section, if you want to see, the another payment. Yes. First of all, entrance fee; then, within that, if you want to see another particular section, then another fee. And they are collecting money. I have seen. Śyāmasundara took me there.

Room Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). That is the secret of success. If one has got unflinching faith in his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Two things. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. So if the guru is false, then how they can keep their faith? That will be broken. Our process is very simple. There is no difficulty. You have seen our Los Angeles temple? When we purchased, it was a church, perhaps you know. Nobody was coming, so that they were obliged to sell. They started this Sunday class, this, that, so many things. In Melbourne also we have seen a big.... What was that?

Hari-śauri: It used to be what they call a Christian Brothers school.

Prabhupāda: That we wanted to purchase?

Hari-śauri: Oh, that nunnery.

Prabhupāda: Nunnery. So they wanted to maintain themselves by becoming washermen. Still, they could not maintain. They eventually became washerwoman to maintain. Huge establishment. So I wanted, negotiation was there. They persisted that the church should not be broken. No? To be broken.

Room Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: So we thought that we shall use it as temple. That they disagreed. "No, you cannot keep it, you have to break it, then we can sell to you." Then why shall I break it? We shall pay for it and break it? No. Then the negotiation failed. But a huge land, and we are prepared to purchase. In England, in London, I was..., one, two churches I was negotiating, and one church, that man, he said, "I'll burn into ashes. I'll not sell it to Bhaktivedanta." (laughs) Recently we wanted to purchase in St. James Park one nice house. So they did not give us. They..., we offered better price; still they did not give us.

Stansky: Your Grace, the thing that impressed me the very most at the temple in Los Angeles.... Now you must bear in mind that I am very, very steeped in Catholicism, I'm very steeped in the New Testament. So when I observed what was happening at the temple in Los Angeles, I was seeing the Book of Acts coming to life. Something that died three hundred years ago in the Roman church. In 300 A.D. it died. Since then there's been no such example. And I was just amazed wandering around because there I saw the exact, the Book of Acts. And I was impressed.

Indian girl: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Room Conversation -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Hari-śauri: Oh, that's a church title, Monsignor.

Lekhaśravantī: He's very old, he's elderly, but he's very well known in the entire area. He has a large following of people.

Hari-śauri: What church is he with?

Lekhaśravantī: It's the Holy Trinity Church.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Catholic?

Lekhaśravantī: Maybe it is. I'm not so educated in all these things.

Hari-śauri: I think it's Catholic.

Prabhupāda: So we shall have to go there? No.

Hari-śauri: It's very windy tonight, there is no sun.

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Hari-śauri: You can look. Whatever you decide.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got?

Hari-śauri: I think so. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja already has it sorted out. My U.S. visa allows me to travel outside the country and come back in unlimited amount of times. I don't.... In Toronto also, one boy there was telling us that the priest that was selling that church, he said that he would rather burn it down than sell it to us. But because this Indian man bought it for us, then we were able to get it.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. It was sold to somebody else. But because it is an old church, the government municipality would not allow to break it. Then the man who purchased, he was obliged to sell to us.

Hari-śauri: That's an exact duplicate of the situation that happened in Melbourne. That place was sold to a property developer, and then the National Trust put a classification on it, so he was not able to break it down, and neither could he utilize the extra space in the yard for building flats, because the council would not allow him. So then we.... Originally they would not sell to us.

Prabhupāda: Same thing here. Nobody would purchase it on account of this black quarter. Nobody was purchasing, ready to purchase.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Lekhaśravantī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Father Kern and Father Scheverman. Father Scheverman is from the church across the street from the temple here. He came also tonight.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let him.... Bring one āsana.

Ambarīṣa: There's another chair coming. There's another chair coming.

Priest: Thank you.

Hari-śauri: Put a mat out, cushion.

Priest: Thank you. (commotion in background, mike moving around while devotees bring seats)

Scheverman: This is just fine.

Kern: We're happy the way we are.

Scheverman: I don't think I could quite sit too long like that. I have to practice more.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...habituated to sit cross-leg. They have learned also. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So people in general, they are now out of God consciousness.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued one booklet that "These boys, they're our boys, mostly they are coming from Christian or Jewish families. But before this movement, they were not coming even to the church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God." He issued one pamphlet like that. These boys.

Scheverman: Oh, you're referring to the young men right here, coming from Boston, that's what you're saying, I see. Right.

Prabhupāda: We have got many places. Los Angeles we purchased one church, a very big church. That church was vacant, nobody was coming. They tried so much to invite men, but nobody was coming. But after we have purchased, the church is the same, and the inhabitants are residents of Los Angeles, but it is always packed up.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: Many of these expressions that you are reading sound very similar to what we call the "Wisdom Literature" of the Old Testament of our Bible, of Syrac and Ecclesiastics and Ecclesiasticus, and also, of course, some of the sayings of Jesus are very close to what you're saying here. Jesus said "Seek first the kingdom of heaven, and all these other things will be added besides." That's the first-class man, who's constantly working toward the kingdom. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek" and so on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If there is a first class, set a first-class man on the head of the society, then everything will be done properly.

Kern: In the Mass today Jesus said "You must be perfected as your heavenly father is perfect."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: And then were you at the university or the school or somewhere?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Calcutta University. I was taught at the Scottish Churches College. All my professor's were Fathers and Reverends. Our principal was.... They were all Fathers. Mr. Scott.

Scheverman: They were clergymen of the Church of Scotland, your teachers.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. My professor of philosophy was Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He was a very famous man in India. He became vice chancellor.

Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: As devotional service.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are nine kinds of devotional service. They are all the same. Different processes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). Vandanam, this vandanam is prayer. We are worshiping, Deity worship, and you are offering prayers in the church. So both of them we take as devotional service. We don't say that because you are offering prayer, it is less important than.... No. Because it is, prayer is offered to the Supreme Lord. So that is devotional. That is devotion.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: Rascal, how you think there is no authority? There is no sinful, and there is no..., everything is all right? Go on. Go to hell.

Jagadīśa: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God, and be afraid of God. But then as I went to high school, due to...

Prabhupāda: .... association, everything is bad(?). So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first-class man section. A first-class.... All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.

Satsvarūpa: This priest who joined us, who's now your man, he said that although he was a priest, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day and drank all kind of wine. He began to drink wine, he said, because in their mass, in their ceremony, the priest drinks wine. And then then he became addicted.

Prabhupāda: These rascals are priests. And they'll protect religion.

Hari-śauri: We used to have a Reverend who was in charge of our local church when I was a child. And when we used to go on outings, sometimes they used to organize outings for children to the seaside and everything, and they would stop at a public house and they would give refreshments. So all the children would get lemonade, like that, and the grown-ups would go and drink some beer or something. So the...

Prabhupāda: Their father, mother drinking, and the child is given some soft drinking. And learning how to drink when he'll grow up.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Bhakta Gene: You didn't meet with him? He was supposedly the most prominent mystical writer within the Catholic Church in the past one hundred years. His writings gained tremendous prominence in the past..., oh, the past twenty-five years.

Prabhupāda: Prominence amongst whom?

Bhakta Gene: Uh, amongst Christians. And non-Christians as well. He made a trip to the East. He had an accident in the East and was electrocuted. Oh, this is some ten years ago now.

Jayādvaita: He wrote that original introduction for your first Bhagavad-gītā published by Macmillan.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bhakta Gene: Well, this raises a question in my mind, Your Grace. Within Christianity there has been a history of mysticism from 100 A.D. to the present. Now there have been some prominent mystics, a few prominent mystics, and a great many not so prominent. Now how do you classify these men, these Christian mystics, Protestant as well as Catholic?

Prabhupāda: It is some yogic mysticism. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. They want to see some miracles, generally, ordinary public. So this mystic power, show some miracles and make them astonished. That's all. It has nothing to do with spiritual life.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: Where is mystic? We don't show any mystic.

Bhakta Gene: No. The term, we're having trouble with the term. The term "mystic" was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from Roman or, what do you mean by traditionalist?

Bhakta Gene: Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture?

Bhakta Gene: Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition. Ritualistic laws.

Prabhupāda: What is the tradition?

Satsvarūpa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to...

Prabhupāda: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). That is bhakti way.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Satsvarūpa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to...

Prabhupāda: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). That is bhakti way.

Bhakta Gene: But so much of the tradition within the Roman Church has no reference to any scripture.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that has not been properly done. Otherwise, just like here, we have got temple, regulative principle. If it is done properly, the result will be there. If it is improperly done, then there is no result. How these boys, European, American, they never knew what is Kṛṣṇa. But on account of this following the traditionalism, they are becoming devotees. It is practical, you can see. Simply theoretical knowledge will not do. Must be practical. That is traditionalism. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. That is the Nectar of Instruction. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. This is traditional. One has to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt (Upadeśāmṛta 3). First of all one must be enthusiastic: "I shall become devotee." Then, utsāhān dhairyāt, with patience. Then niścayāt, with conviction: "Yes, I am following the rules and it will be successful." And tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Sato vṛtteḥ, you must be honest. Sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). And these things in the association of devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. Then your bhakti, devotional life, will be successful.

Room Conversation -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will consider it is their own interest.

Viśvakarmā: 'Cause all the Christians have their churches, and we are the only church for them. The other...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then you can (can't(?)) allow it.

Viśvakarmā: There are four temples in Toronto of other Indian groups. But they are political and social. The people really don't like them. And they don't have Deities like we have.

Prabhupāda: That is a farce. That is not temple. In London also there are Hindu Center, this, that. All nonsense. Now they are installing Deity. But it is not taken care of properly.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Guest (1): Swami, do you attach any significance to the fact that this temple is in a form of a Christian church?

Prabhupāda: There are many Christian church we have converted temple. They sell for want of customer. And we purchase, we increase customers. But customer of the same place. That is the beauty. These customers, they are not brought from India. But formerly they were not coming here, now they are coming in crowd. In Los Angeles we purchased.... You have been in Los Angeles? Now we have got a regular colony. About one dozen big, big houses. So that was a church. Nobody was coming, they sold it to us. Now it is always crowded. This church, they were not going to sell us. But (laughs) under circumstances it came to us. We wanted to purchase it, but the proprietor would not sell to us. They were charging very big price. So we are prepared. Still he'll not agree. Now we have purchased less price.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Devotee: Well, the previous owner didn't want to sell it to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They said they'd prefer to burn it down. (Prabhupāda laughs) One Indian gentleman who is a prominent businessman in Toronto purchased it in trust, saying that he was representing some Indian social group. So he purchased it in trust. Then the chairman of the committee of trustees who were in charge of selling the church noticed some tilaka on Viśvakarmā's face. He had a hat on so his śikhā wouldn't show. When he saw it was Hare Kṛṣṇa, he became very disturbed.

Viśvakarmā: He said, "Oh, no, the Hare Kṛṣṇas."

Prabhupāda: So they are not very favorable to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (laughs)

Indian man: How long did it take for Swamiji to write the seventeen volumes, translation of Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: It can be finished, but I have to look after this management, that is the difficulty.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking about the Caitanya-caritāmṛtas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, it is finished.

Conversation in Airport and Car -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Hari-śauri: Control wheat?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They purchase from here and there all rejected wheat, and they supply it. There is no ghee, no milk, no proper food grain. Everything black market. Any necessary commodity you cannot have in the open market; you have to purchase in black market. Just like for the building purpose, cement. In your country you can purchase any amount of it. You cannot purchase. You have to purchase black market, and that cement also mixed with some... What is that? And unless you give some bribe, it is not possible. (break)

Viśvakarmā: ...for the balcony in the church in the other room? How can we... (announcement being made)

Prabhupāda: ...fit for sitting. That is very nice. And next time when I come the seat should be just Deity altar, so that all balcony can see.

Conversation in Airport and Car -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: And Hichai is, this is called Hichai? That is "hitchhike," and this is Hitch-hi.

Hari-śauri: Hitachi.

Prabhupāda: Hitachi, yes. This is a church?

Kīrtanānanda: No, this is an institution, state institution for old people or mental home. I forget. "Western State School." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Hayagrīva.

Kīrtanānanda: I think he's in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Like in the church. Who has done this painting?

Kīrtanānanda: That is, I think, from India.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Kīrtanānanda: These pictures are rose quartz. This is rose quartz and twenty-four-carat gold.

Prabhupāda: Gold? (laughter)

Kulādri: Twenty-four karat.

Prabhupāda: In that Detroit house, so much gold. That is also like this. What are these?

Kīrtanānanda: This is a sample of the handles.

Prabhupāda: Plumbing?

Kīrtanānanda: Like those on the doors. But we are just śūdras; we don't know how to do anything else.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What for these marbles?

Kīrtanānanda: That will go on the wall in the bathroom, Italian cremo marble. Here's a picture of how the windows are being done in jāli work. This is being cast out of white cement.

Prabhupāda: Doing here?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. This is some of the castings they've done. This goes up on the ceiling.

Prabhupāda: Cornice.

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Reporter: "In the United States there has traditionally been the separation of church and state."

Prabhupāda: "I am not talking about the church. Church or no church, that is not the point. The main thing is that the leaders have to accept that there is a supreme controller. How can they deny it? Everything in nature is going on under the Supreme Lord's control. The leaders cannot control nature, so why don't they accept a supreme controller? That is the defect in society. In every respect the leaders are feeling that there must be a supreme controller, and yet they are still denying Him."

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Kulādri: In the Catholic Church, they used to have the doctrine, "No eating meat on Friday." Used to be standard, no meat-eating on Friday; they would only eat fish. Now within our lifetime they have changed it.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have changed so many things. When I was a young boy they..., you had to be in church on Sunday morning very early, otherwise it was noticed. Now you don't have to be till later on. There is no more austerity in religion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if their standard is demoniac to begin with...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are selling churches. Nobody is attracted. In London city there are so many churches closed. Nobody goes.

Devotee (1): In Cleveland, also, Prabhupāda, there are so many churches, only five, ten, fifteen people attend, and they are all elderly, elderly ladies.

Hari-śauri: Due to the Pope's taking a firm stand over the not allowing abortion and contraception, like this, they said that the number of practicing Catholics was reduced from seventy-five percent to fifty percent, just simply because of that one principle that he'd stuck to. So twenty-five percent immediately left.

Prabhupāda: Where they have gone? (laughter)

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Hari-śauri: Well, they gave up going to church at least.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hopeless life.

Prabhupāda: No, why hopeless? There is hope—Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Hopeless for them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This very much describes modern civilization also. They are such aśuci-vratāḥ, they are given much respect in modern-day society. And the devotees, sometimes we go preaching and put into jail.

Prabhupāda: It is very fortunate they are not crucifying you. Putting into jail, but they crucified Lord Jesus Christ, they were so intelligent. Because he was preaching God consciousness, he was crucified. What was his fault? He was talking of God, therefore he was crucified.

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu. Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru, or spiritual master. It is not a fashion that "Everyone keeps a guru; let me also have a guru." Not like that. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam. After artha,... Just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church... Four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks... Actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm. Find that verse. You can quote that "This Kali-yuga it is waning; therefore they are becoming animals." Man without religion means animals. That's all. This is the definition. In the human society, either you become Christian or you become Mohammedan or you become a Hindu or you become Buddhist. It doesn't matter. There must be some system of religion. That is human society. And human society without religion—animal society. This is plain fact. So why people are unhappy now? Because there is no religion. They are neglecting religion. That one gentleman, he has written me that Tolstoy said that "Unless one dynamite is put underneath a church, there cannot be any peace." That means they want... The Russians, the Communists, they are very strict against God consciousness. Because they think so, that this religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. It might have been misused, religious system. That does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion. Then śrama eva hi kevalam. Your going to the temple and church and everything is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Because you do not understand God. You have no love for God. That is going on, all over the world. They're stamping under some sect, but there is no real religion. So in order to bring them all in one platform, they have to accept the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you do not accept in the beginning Kṛṣṇa, that He is the supreme, then you try to understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is education. There is somebody supreme. So if I say, because I am Hindu, I am Indian, that "Kṛṣṇa is the supreme," you may say, "Then why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is Indian." "No. He is God. Just like the sun rises first in India, then comes to Europe. But that does not mean the sun is different. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, although appeared in India, now He has come to Western countries, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You try to understand whether Kṛṣṇa is not God or God. But He is God. There is no doubt about it. If you have got intelligence to understand what is God, then try to understand. But He is God undoubtedly. So take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Then everyone comes on the same platform, the religious platform, one religion, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Kulādri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition."

Room Conversation -- July 2, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Pradyumna: One time we went to a church in Boston to speak. They had only a pulpit for the preacher, and behind, no altar, no crucifix, nothing, just big map of outer space with planets on the wall. Not even any Christian church, but no cross, nothing. Only universe. Universalist Church, it's called. The Universalists.

Prabhupāda: That's nice, but give some information of the universe.

Hari-śauri: Says, "Religion: 1. monastic condition, being a monk or a nun, enter into a monastic order; 2. practice of sacred rites; 3. one of the prevalent systems of faith and worship, i.e. Christian, Muhammadan, etc.; 4. human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude."

Prabhupāda: This is religion. Personal conception of God.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Guest (4): But I go into a Catholic Church and I feel a different environmental personality from the environmental personality I feel when I come here. Or, and, if I'm looking for God, which I think is here, I feel God, certainly I feel it very strongly, in your person—well, that's a brutal thing to say, but I do—and that is...

Prabhupāda: That we have already explained. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, so just like the particle of gold, the gold is there. There is no doubt about it.

Guest (4): Yes, but sometimes you feel it more than at other times.

Prabhupāda: That may be big particle or small particle. But particle there may be different sizes, that is another thing, but as soon as you get a particle, the gold is already there. Similarly, whenever you find any living entity, God is there.

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Scottish Churches College. So one American, Scientific American, we have contribute(?). So there the picture was that one skyscraper building is constructed and so many men are working, carrying the beams and so on. So there was—I remember still—that all, some material construction, so many living entities they are being sacrificed(?). I do not know how the Scientific American gave this picture, I still remember. Actually that is a fact. This human being would have been released from this materialistic way of life, back to home, back to... No, instead of giving them the chance, they are engaged in constructing huge skyscraper building. They're spoiled. So it is little difficult to understand our philosophy. And Prahlāda Mahārāja said, tat-prayāso na kartavyo yata āyur-vyayaḥ param. Tat-prayāso na kartavyaḥ. This kind of activity should stop. It is simply wasting the valuable life. But they do not know how they're wasting. They're in such an ignorance. They are thinking that these people, crazy people, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, are wasting time, they're thinking like that. They do not know what is the value of life.

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin?

Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he's the rascal.

Pradyumna: He had many wives, he wanted to divorce his wife and he could not under Catholic Church, so he started his own church, Church of England.

Prabhupāda: Because many wives were not allowed?

Hari-śauri: No, they had a system, one wife, but he got fed up with them. He chopped off the heads of two of them and then... It was considered a bit outrageous. So then he wanted to divorce and have another wife after the third or fourth one.

Prabhupāda: So he used to cut them, the head?

Hari-śauri: Yes, two of them he did. And then the Catholic Church excommunicated him.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say like that. (laughs) Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaiṣṇava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect.

Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Kṛṣṇa, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that sometimes we Indians come to Western country for better education. The university in India or the university in U.S. or in Europe is the same, but why does he go after Indian university education to foreign university? Why does he go?

Guest (2): Superior.

Prabhupāda: That's it. God is there, the dictionary is there. Sometimes pocket dictionary, sometimes big national encyclopedia dictionary. The Christians, they have no idea what is God. They believe in God, but if you ask them what is God, who is God, they cannot say. But we can say. That is the difference.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve God as a Christian in a church?

Prabhupāda: That is have already explained, that you serve God in any position, but if you want to know about God more, then you have to come here. Now ask any Christian what is God, who is God, what is His form, what He is doing. Can he answer? Nobody can answer. He knows God is great. How great He is, who is that God, they cannot answer. To some extent it is all right, but if you want to know full extent, then you have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Two plus two is equal to four" is mathematics, but if you want to know higher mathematics, you have to go some higher college. "Two plus two" is also mathematics, is it not? Everyone knows two plus two equal to four. So when you go to higher university, that "two plus two" does not change, but you know more about it. Because one has gone to higher university, the previous education, "two plus two," has changed, it is not that. But as a Christian you understand God is great, "two plus two," but how He is great, that you have to learn in the Vedas. That is real education. Because you do not know how He is great, therefore you do so many sinful activities. Otherwise, how it is possible to maintain slaughterhouse? Christian doctrine says "Thou shall not kill." But he does not understand; therefore his business has become to kill only. This is the defect. Why you are disobeying the orders of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? Because you do not understand him properly.

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: About hundred yards below.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, quite far below. Beautiful church here, St. Bartholomew's Church. This is the Seagram's Building. Yes, this is Dhṛṣṭadyumna's father's building. The whole building, the Seagram's building.

Rāmeśvara: It's a liquor company.

Prabhupāda: Liquor?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father is the president of the biggest liquor manufacturer in the whole world.

Prabhupāda: And father, and son is no liquor.

Morning Walk -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: I spoke about this cosmic manifestation, where is Vaikuṇṭha, where is... This is a church?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Second Church of Christ Scientists.

Hari-śauri: Was it a Catholic church or..., where you went?

Rāmeśvara: The Library Party said that everywhere they go in India, they find that you went there first with your first three volumes of Bhāgavatam. Especially in New Delhi, they said. There's one institute which had fifty sets of your original first canto, so now they ordered fifty complete sets to complete the books they had. They said that all the major colleges had your original Bhāgavatams in India, first edition. So then they could understand that you were distributing books yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: I think this church.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Universalist church. You always gave literature in return for donations you received.

Prabhupāda: That is going on still.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Knowledge..., what is this?

Hari-śauri: It says "Truth, knowledge, vision."

Rāmeśvara: This is a museum.

Hari-śauri: State of New York Memorial to Theodore Roosevelt.

Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman on the horse?

Rāmeśvara: That's one of the former presidents, Theodore Roosevelt.

Prabhupāda: This road is very infamous.

Morning Walk -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: If you can manage, very good. In a city like New York you can have ten, twelve centers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I mean the Christians have so many churches in every part of the city.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Similarly, we can have temples.

Rāmeśvara: You said that once in Los Angeles to me.

Prabhupāda: That Juhu temple, Akasganga, you know? Everyone asked me not to go there, "Nobody will go there." I said "It is Bombay city. Wherever you shall go, people will come."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question is whether, if we open another temple, it will increase the total number of people coming, or whether simply the same people will come to two different locations.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have got demand, then you can open.

Morning Walk -- July 12, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: We don't encourage sex life on the whole.

Rāmeśvara: They say that when you are married in their church, it means that when you then quit your body and you go to the spiritual world...

Prabhupāda: No, we condone marriage. Marriage is Vedic principle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Seventy-second Street, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were going to show us that building.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just on the corner of Amsterdam and Seventy-second.

Morning Walk -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: This is not education. Everything is killing. Therefore we are supposed to deal with all madmen. They are thinking that they are constructing such big, big buildings, they are the most exalted persons, but we take them as mad.

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya
māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya

Ghostly haunted. A person ghostly haunted, as he does, acts, similarly, anyone who is under the clutches of māyā, he acts like this. (break) ...this church, I came. They purchased one set of books. And one lady, Mrs. McGuire I think, she arranged this meeting. Underneath there is subway. I was sitting there and the subway sound was cut-cut cut-cut cut-cut. So I asked what is this and they said subway. Within this building there is subway. I think they are repairing. What is this building? That museum?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one? It's the Museum of Natural History.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Rāmeśvara: Just like in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also. (laughter)

Interviewer: Well, I didn't necessarily mean the specifics.

Bali-mardana: In other words the purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always be questioning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the system is imperfect, then it has to be changed according to time and circumstance. But if the system is itself perfect, there is no question of... Just like the perfect system: the sun rises from the eastern side. So for millions and trillions of years the system is going on because the system is perfect. It doesn't require change, neither you can change. You cannot ask the sun to rise from the western side. So if the soul is eternal, it does not die or it is slain after the body is finished. But that is eternal fact. Destined in the past present and future, everything.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: What is this church, big church.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa also called.

Rāmeśvara: Lutheran Church.

Prabhupāda: Where he is now?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in Detroit. He told me to book his ticket to London on the same flight that you were going on.

Prabhupāda: I came here in the evening, with umbrella and in the morning I saw the whole street is white.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: White-washed, you thought it was white-washed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said he sold his books then; they ordered his books.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they purchased my books. In Butler also, many churches would purchase.

Rāmeśvara: This month the first volume of the Eighth Canto is going to the printers.

Prabhupāda: Seventh Canto, last volume you saw.

Kīrtanānanda: Jaya.

Interview with Religion Editor of The Observer -- July 23, 1976, London:

Cline Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence.

Conversation at House of Ksirodakasayi dasa -- July 25, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance.

Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We got many times, many visitors here. One time that church come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And...

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. One must be.... Our mission is to educate. People are in ignorance. They are living in fool's paradise, that he is his body. Bas. When the body's finished, everything is finished. That is foolishness.

Mike Robinson: And you're basically just concerned to tell them that there's a spiritual dimension to life. And if they then were to find that spiritual dimension in something like the Anglican Church, that would not worry you.

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Anglican Church...

Mike Robinson: Sorry, the English Church.

Prabhupāda: ...but we are concerned with the educational propaganda, that "You are not this body. Body is your covering, shirt and coat. Within the body you are living, and as you are spirit soul, you have got so many things to know."

Room Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: We are, rather, inviting, "Come here. Live comfortably. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa's state and ordinary state? When I see so many young boys are taking prasādam, I become so happy that they are having prasādam and good chance for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They are living in the best house.

Bhagavān: Even the churches, they are not feeding people like this. They have so much money.

Prabhupāda: They do not know whose money, how to spend it. Bokāloka. In the evening I took that watermelon juice? That created havoc whole night. I think so. So for breakfast you can prepare that soup, the little. Just put vegetable soup.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Sometimes they are called churchmouse. Churchmouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Churchmouse. Any new mail?

Harikeśa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Where from?

Harikeśa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Ali: The way I look at it, it's better to talk about God than to talk about...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. One must be serious, that we are talking about God, so what is my God realization? That is nice. Otherwise, if I go on life after life talking about God and there is no God realization... That is going on. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
śrama eva hi kevalam
(SB 1.2.8)

We are talking of God, but instead of loving God, we are loving this body. So that is not practical. That is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. If one does not become enthused to love God, then simply talking about God is a waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is going on all over the world. Somebody's Hindu, somebody's Christian, somebody's Muhammadan, they are going to the church, they are going to the mosque, they are going to the temple, everything is going on, but when you ask whether you love God or dog, he'll say, "I love dog." Practically we see. Everyone is keeping a dog, very favorite pet. And in church, they'll talk of God, but practically they love the dog. Is it not? This is going on, in the name of religion, that's all. Therefore Bhāgavata says it is simply waste of time. What is the use of talking God? If by talking of God perpetually you are developing your love for dog, then what is the use? Śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time. These are all discussed. Regularly going to the church, regularly going to the mosque or temple, but the love is for material things, not for God.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Rituals are meant for the neophytes who are given education to begin with. But if he's stuck up with rituals, do not make any further progress, then his progress is checked. You have to go, progress, more progress. Instead of having no sense of God, they, if it is prescribed that "Go to the mosque and pray to God, five times," that is good, ritualistic. At least you're accepting there is God, I must offer. Similarly... This is Muslim process. Hindu process, they say go to the temple and see God. And this Christian, go to the church and offer... The subject matter is the same—accept God. Accept God. But the ultimate, shall we say, goal is not only accept God... They go to God for some material benefit, because they have no other idea. Like the Christians say, "O God, give us our daily bread." I do not know what the Muhammadans say in the prayer. Hindus also, they go to God, "Sir, I am very poor, give me some money," or "I am diseased, please cure me." So these things are the same in different ways according to country and customs. But it is good because they have approached God. That much is good. They are accepting there is God. That much is good. But when he makes further progress, that there is God, what kind of person He is, what is His business, then you make further progress. So these, for the neophyte, these ritualistic formula is good, but he must make further progress. Instead of godlessness, these processes are better. Let him go to the mosque, let him go to the temple, let him go to the church.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: The more you become purified, the more He reveals. Then He'll talk with you. So everything depends on the sincerity and seriousness. And if we take these ritualistic ceremonies, "Now I've gone to church or mosque, I have gone to temple, finish. Now let me do whatever I like." Then that is waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is simply waste of time. That is going on practically. He doesn't want to see "How much progress I have made in the matter of loving God." That he does not inquire. He takes God as order supplier. So "He's supplying my order, that's nice." He'll never learn to supply the order of God. Neither he will come any stage on that platform. The highest stage is to supply the order of God, not make God my order supplier. That is neophyte stage. Just like a small child, he simply wants to take supply from the father. But when the child is grown up and he's educated, he wants to see "How I can supply the order of parents." That is good stage. "My parents have taken so much pain to raise me, now I am educated, now they are old man..." Sentiment, I am speaking, this family sentiment. "I must see my..." (someone enters) Come on. The whole day. That is the stage of love, that "I have taken supplies from my father so long, now I must supply the order of the father." That is the stage of love. I'll not take. I have taken so much, sufficient. Now I'll not take anything from my parents, I shall simply supply what they want. That is good son, loving son. That is perfection of spiritual or religious life, when we love God and we are prepared to sacrifice anything for God. That is perfection.

Room Conversation -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect?

Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the church is being closed. Eh? Is it not?

Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church.

Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect. Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point.

Evening Darsana -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your love also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if I understand that he is rich, I may consider, "Well, I have got one thousand dollars, so he may have one hundred thousand dollars," that's all. But if you understand that he has got millions and millions of dollars, then you'll appreciate, "Oh, so rich!" Then your regard for him will increase. That is not being done. Stereotyped, "God is great." How He is great, to what extent He is great, what is His greatness activities, if you know more and more, then your regard for God will increase. But that they are not doing. Simply officially, "God is great, God is great," finished. No jijñāsā, no inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. One should be inquisitive. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One who has become inquisitive of the uttamam, the most exalted subject matter, he requires a guru. Otherwise, who will answer his inquiries? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. If he's not jijñāsuḥ, what is the need of guru? And where is the question of advancement? He must be jijñāsuḥ. That is, people are not interested. Officially, go to church, go to mosque, go to temple and do something.

Room Conversation -- September 9, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Yes, that picture in the Butler Eagle. It's in the Vyāsa-Pūjā book this year.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Butler County, it is good (indistinct), there were many churches (indistinct) people have got so many churches (indistinct) (break) ...some time, that one piece of wire lying in one place, one piece of bamboo was lying in another place, and one dry shell of a squash was lying. So one intelligent man collected. So this dry shell became the tamburā's what is called...

Hari-śauri: I don't know. Like sound chamber. What do you call it?

Prabhupāda: Sound chamber may be called. So with that dry squash he made the sound chamber. The bamboo he fixed up and the wire upon it and then it became a "Tin, tin, tin, tin..." (laughs) Our organization is like that. I was loitering in the street. Somebody was over there, somebody was there. Not combined together, International Society String Band. Yes. Separately we are all useless.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the church?

Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Sir, apart from Catholicity of the American church, what can be the other reasons of their indifference towards your positive ideas?

Prabhupāda: Not indifference. They are... You see, there is a remark of a politician. There is no indifference. They are appreciating that it is spreading like epidemic. There is no question of indifference. But the leaders, they appreciate. Some of the fathers of my disciples, they come to offer their thanks, "Swamiji, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." They say like that. They appreciate that their sons were going to be hippies. Now they are devotees, God conscious. So any sane man will never object to this. The priests also, they say that "These boys are our boys..." In Boston, one priest said. "And they never cared to come to the church or inquire about God. And now these boys are mad after God." Not only that, practically, in many places we have purchased churches and converted into temples. So we see these churches were sold because nobody was coming. But since this movement is there, the same church is there and the same persons are there. You will find always it is crowded. This is practical. I have not imported men from India to fill up the temples. Their men and their church, but the philosophy is different. It is filled up.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was little chance also, understanding Hindi. And I was maybe 7, 6 or 7 years old, that's all. Then somebody made at Saranpur. That was of course not in the school. Then in our college there were many up-country (?) class friends, Scottish Churches College. One of them was that Grnanatha (?), he came here, (Hindi).

Devotee (1): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: He was bigger (?) in the police court M.A., B.A... Now, I repeatedly told him that "You stay here and write Hindi."

Room Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana:

Devotee: I'm not sure if we can keep cows in there because it's inside of the city and sometimes they don't allow the cow within a certain zoning. And now the only problem we might run into with this is that it's not zoned right now for a church or a temple but...

Prabhupāda: Don't say "temple."

Devotee: Excuse me.

Prabhupāda: You say "community project."

Devotee: Community project?

Prabhupāda: Community project.

Devotee: Oh, community project. Well...

Prabhupāda: Don't say church.

Devotee: OK. But the thing is if... The first thing that it can be rezoned for is a church and a temple.

Prabhupāda: There is no need of rezoning because we are Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa community. So wherever we live we worship Kṛṣṇa. It is not a public show, it is our own private worshiping Deity. I can keep Deity in my home. Just like Christian Deity, Mary, Jesus Christ, in the room. There is no objection.

Room Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many communities, gṛhastha, in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We don't say...

Devotee: According to the escrow we say that we want to build like some sort of a church and the zoning laws for that particular area... Now if you want to rezone, the only thing that's allowed to rezone for is for churches and temples, they have it written.

Prabhupāda: You can take help from Detroit. He knows very well. That was rezoned. You did it.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. That was a residential quarter. Now we have made it a temple.

Room Conversation -- November 15, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Then they'll suffer?

Devotee: Then there's no... Actually even if we ask for rezoning, they cannot refuse us because according to their laws the only thing that this particular land can be rezoned for, number one on the list is churches and temples. But...

Prabhupāda: No, you do it, but if there is doubt you can say, "No temple."

Devotee: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct-talking together) ...take the name of a temple.

Devotee: This is a minor problem in this case. It used to be a major but it's minor now.

Prabhupāda: Community project. That's all. We are Hare Kṛṣṇa community, it is our project. We live together, that's all.

Room Conversation on Farm Management -- December 10, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamarind, so many preparations. So make like that. Why dog eating? They are not dogs. You cannot expect, because you are giving some dog eatable food, they will come. There must be one first class cook, and all our men should learn. There's no need of simply keeping unduly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, and sleeping. We don't want such men. Make a show. And do not know anything how to preach. Useless. The householder, the women should be engaged in cooking. Their children should be gathered together. One man... I have said many times, all the children should be taken in a room by one woman, and others should be engaged in the cooking department. I have seen it. Your country, America. When they go to church, all the childrens are gathered together in a room. Is it not?

Devotees: Yes.

Room Conversation -- December 26, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The movement's nearly one hundred centers are mostly urban monasteries from which members in accordance with Vaiṣṇava tradition perform evangelistic and proselytizing activities. The authenticity of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has formerly been confirmed by numerous Hindu religious academic and cultural bodies both in India and U.S. Of the new religious movements which are prominent, most are allegedly based on either a Western religious tradition: the Children of God and Unification Church are Christian oriented; or an Eastern religious or philosophical tradition: Zen groups, yoga groups, Hare Kṛṣṇa, etc. Of the groups based either on Western or non-Western spiritual traditions, some are seen as not accurately representing that tradition upon which they are ostensibly based. For instance, several Christian church organizations assert that the Unification Church, the Moonies, is not a bona fide Christian organization. Others, such as the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, are accepted as legitimate, both by scholars and adherents of that tradition.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And that is also younger age, no old. Old age, they are never... There is no such case. Only younger generation, within thirties, twenty to thirty, they are fighting.

Hari-śauri: Even in the West, the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't allow divorce. The Church of England was started on that because Henry VIII didn't like his wife, and he wanted to divorce, and the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't let him. So then he did do, so they excommunicated him. So then he started his own church and made up his own laws. Otherwise, now there's a big push in Italy for divorce and everything, but even in the last ten years there's been no divorce. They don't allow it. And chastity of the woman was still very greatly appreciated too.

Prabhupāda: Woman infidel, they are stoned among the Muhammadans. Christian also. "You have done..." Woman proved unchaste, she was punished. Is it not? The public would stone and kill. You know that punishment? Stoning?

Hari-śauri: Stoning, yes. It's mentioned a lot in early Christian times. They used to stone.

Prabhupāda: Everyone will throw a stone. Very tortuous death, stoning.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere there is religion, in Europe, America. Church. Church. Marriage was taken in church.

Dr. Patel: The Catholic marriages are indissolvable. They can't remarry. Now they have done it.

Prabhupāda: Now you have also done in India, so many.

Dr. Patel: We have got a government law, that sue the fellow for dissolution. Hindus. Mr. Nehru has done-great service to his community. (japa) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...aerodrome is near.

Dr. Patel: I reach aerodrome from my place in three minutes. And you (indistinct). (discussion of airplanes and helicopters)

Prabhupāda: Chambur, I stayed there for a week. So almost on head, aeroplanes.

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Here and America. Yesterday I read about that cutting paper.

Prabhupāda: No, no. One secret letter they have... How they are making conspiracy.

Dr. Patel: By the church.

Prabhupāda: Not by the church.

Dr. Patel: By the society.

Prabhupāda: Now they are determined to cut down this movement.

Dr. Patel: They don't like their boys, I mean, getting a better understanding of the life and living a pious life. They want them to be...

Prabhupāda: Not here!

Dr. Patel: Here it is different, sir. We can't compare India with those people. Here we see still there is some signs of...

Prabhupāda: I wanted to start this movement. I requested so many friends, "Give me your one son." Nobody.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means "God is my servant order-supplier." Actually... This is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadananda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield, somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥkha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So, but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed.' And God did not bring him back. He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position.

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking.

Guest (10): Opposition is natural. Because you are converting their churches into temples.

Prabhupāda: No, there are many... First thing is that my students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication up to the point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their life. How they can give up this? That is... It is a shock. Therefore they say, "brainwashing," that "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many... No many. A few of my students, they left. They said that "Swamiji is denying the primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate even. So I do not make any compromise. That you want to become my student you have to give up these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that "My son is now purified."

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: What was his reply?

Rāmeśvara: On every point he was defeated. Then this Reverend from the Lutheran Church, he said that we have invented this Kṛṣṇa religion. He said that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man who is a sex symbol, having so many women, gopīs, wives, and that we are saying that He is God. And this is heresy, he told us, a concoction. So he was defeated in different ways also. And at the end he had to admit that "The only way to find out is if you buy their books, so everyone go buy their books and see for yourself."

Prabhupāda: No, even taking it that Kṛṣṇa is after sex, then if sex is bad, then why you are after sex? The whole world is going on after sex.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone...

Rāmeśvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.

Prabhupāda: It is not church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us...

Prabhupāda: Not stereotyped church.

Rāmeśvara: But they think of us as a religion.

Prabhupāda: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture.

Rāmeśvara: For example, this group, this new record, Golden Avatar record...

Prabhupāda: That may be for a certain class.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Rāmeśvara: "But I believe in God. I go to church every Sunday, and I confess."

Prabhupāda: But you go to church, but you don't do anything what God says.

Rāmeśvara: "I am taught that God gave us all of these fruits to enjoy."

Prabhupāda: Not to follow His advice. You are so great devotee that you simply enjoy God's gifts, but what He says, you don't follow. You are such a great devotee. "I enjoy my father's property, but I don't care for his advice." (aside:) Ask your mother to learn how to make kachoris from Kulādri. Is that all right? (train slowing) Bulahanipur.(?) Somebody wrote me a letter from this place, Bulahanipur.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the news of Germany?

Rāmeśvara: The news from Germany? I have not heard any change—except that Satsvarūpa's men, they began... Just before Christmas the schools close. They began to go to Germany to take standing orders, and it was the most difficult country, they said, very difficult. And because... One of the reasons is they have such a very bad opinion of us. The church is against us. But still, they managed to get a few standing orders, and then the schools closed for Christmas.

Hari-śauri: Any reviews?

Rāmeśvara: Not yet. They just began. Now they are spending this month, January and February, in Germany. This will be very valuable for our case there, if the scholars begin appreciating us from a different angle. But meanwhile, book distribution is bigger than ever in Germany.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof we are gaining ground.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And ever since then they have continued their killing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their intelligence is so sharp. (laughs) This is the basic principle of their civilization.

Nanda-kumāra: They found some books now that... Theologians consider that they are books of the Bible that were omitted by the early Christian Church to keep the people in ignorance where Jesus states very clearly, "No meat."

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And also later missionaries went all over the world alone, to Africa, all countries of the world, converting people, although it was very difficult. So they had a very good missionary spirit formerly. When I went to Fiji I saw many Christian churches in Fiji. Right next door to the house where Vasudeva lives there is a Christian tabernacle, and they wake up every morning at 4:30 and they have hymns-same practice as we have, but it's Christian hymns.

Hari-śauri: Along with all, that, though, they're allowed to please their senses in any way that they like. So their teaching doesn't really have much benefit for anyone. They're still doing all kinds of sinful activity. Now their idea is that if you accept Jesus, it means that you can carry on doing as many sinful activities as you like, but Jesus is going to take all the sinful reaction.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. "He died for us, so why should we suffer?" (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is the contractor. They say that "Our religion is very good. If you simply have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do anything."

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: With a covering letter: "Sir, there is much agitation about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You'll kindly read this following pamphlet, and you'll understand the value of the movement." And it is good that you have given the heading, "The Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement."

Rāmeśvara: So this is a study published in Los Angeles Times on January 2nd. It says, "The year 1976 could mark the beginning of a new religious revival in America, judging from recent Gallop surveys of public opinion. The surveys found: 1) For the first time in nearly twenty years there was an increase in church attendance"—first time in twenty years—"with 42% of all adults in America attending church or synogogue in any typical week." Once a week 42% of the adult population, almost half. "2) The proportion of Americans who believe that religion is increasing its influence on American life has tripled since 1970." In other words the public thinks that religion is now influencing American life. The number of people who think like that has gone up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Rāmeśvara: I think so.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Actually religion means spiritual.

Rāmeśvara: But they say religion means going to church once a week. That's their religion.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's...

Rāmeśvara: But spiritual is something different. So they say "A recent survey indicates that a projected six million people are participating in the Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation. Five million are practicing yoga in one form or another." Mostly for health. "Three million in the charismatic movements." That is like the cults. "Three million in mysticism, and two million in Eastern religions." That's a lot of people they have estimated are participating in Eastern religion.

Prabhupāda: Eastern Indian.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: "To estimate the average church attendance in 1976, surveys..." Oh, this just tells you how they took the survey. "So analysis of these figures shows that church attendance is up among all major population groups. The Catholics are better attendees than the Protestants. Women go more often than men." Women go more often than men in America. "Southerners and the Mid-Western"—from the South and the Mid-West—"they attend more frequently than they do in the East, and far more than those living in the West." So this says that people in the West, like California, they're the least religious. People in the East, like New York and Pennsylvania, they're a little more religious, and people in the Mid-West and the South, they're the most religious according to this survey. "Those who are under thirty years of age are less likely to go to church than those who are thirty and over." Younger people... Same trend, giving up...

Prabhupāda: They come to us.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They come to us. "Whites and nonwhites attend with equal frequency." Not that the white people are more religious; black people are less. "People with a college background are more likely to go to church regularly than those who never went to college, but people who never went..." In other words, they're saying if you went to high school but you did not go to college, the chances are you will not go to church as much as if you went to college. But if people went to grade school and then they left without going to high school or without going to college... That means they left at, say, fifteen years old. Then they have the best chance for going to church. That means the less education you are given in America, the more religious.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Hari-śauri: The church was its strongest as well in Europe at that time, religion, very strong.

Prabhupāda: Christ also went, came to India.

Rāmeśvara: That is not believed in the West.

Prabhupāda: That is to keep their prestigious position.

Gargamuni: Many scholars... There's a place in Kashmir where they say his samādhi is there.

Rāmeśvara: There is a period of years which no one can account for.

Prabhupāda: No, even from Christian religion it is proved how uncivilized were the Westerners. "Thou shall not kill." Now, how uncivilized they were. Even they take it the human killing, it is meant, not animal killing. So what kind of society it is?

Hari-śauri: Don't kill human beings.

Rāmeśvara: Well, that's accepted, that it's very uncivilized in those times.

Prabhupāda: And the result was that Christ was killed first. Who advised not to kill, they were so civilized that "Kill him first." So this is the proof. Why he said, "Thou shall not kill"? That means the society was so ravaged that they're killing one another.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: They simply..., a official church and temple, and they have no serious attachment, simply kaitava. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). That is another kind of cheating. He's not religious, but he's posing himself: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." That's all. He does not know what is religion. This is going on. Religion means direct touch with God. That is religion. So they have no idea of God. How there can be religion? Here is religion. We do not do anything which is not in interest of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...kicked out. They have no religion, simply bogus. There is no religion in the world at the present time. All bogus.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.

Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?

Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.

Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.

Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?

Hari-śauri: That's been going on for a long time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: No. Our religion is not faith. It is science. That is the fault. Fanaticism of Christianism, Muhammadanism, has created this godlessness. But Vedic knowledge is not that. It is really knowledge.

Satsvarūpa: And in the beginning, when science began, modern science, the scientists would say something against the Bible that was different than the Bible. Then they would torture him. The church would torture him, this Galileo, big scien... So they point these things out, that the church is not tolerant.

Prabhupāda: That is not our point. We want to understand God through philosophy. "Through philosophy" means logic. Blind faith is not our business. (break) "...such date I have posted. You have got the literature. If you permit me, then I can show some of the books." Then our local representatives advise, "You go and see this gentleman." In this way contact him and leave some book with him, that "You first of all see. Then decide." Very honest business.

Room Conversation -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Satsvarūpa: Hindu College?

Prabhupāda: No. St. Julia's. All Indian students, all very rich man's sons. I sent my sons to English, St. Mary's High School and St. Teresa's school. Learned English very nicely. Scottish Churches College. I was educated in Scottish... All our professors European, Englishmen and Scotsmen.

Satsvarūpa: I think you wrote somewhere that Sanskrit should be the national...

Prabhupāda: That is very difficult. No, I... They wanted to make a national language. There was fight, great fight. Therefore I suggested, "Why not make Sanskrit language?" Everyone will adore.

Room Conversation -- February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.

Hari-śauri: That was the Church of England, Henry the VIII.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the VIII. He started this Protestant.

Hari-śauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

Prabhupāda: But this...

Hari-śauri: So he started the Church of England.

Prabhupāda: ...Protestant group was started by him.

Hari-śauri: I don't know anything about their history.

Prabhupāda: That is the history.

Room Conversation -- February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that Church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concord. It is... That place is called Concord. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.

Hari-śauri: She was burnt.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Europe has a big history of...

Prabhupāda: Fighting.

Hari-śauri: Religious fighting.

Prabhupāda: Crusade? Crusade?

Hari-śauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.

Conversation on Roof -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: We are not perfect. We're trying to be perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just like the Christian church. The book may be very good, but if someone doesn't follow it doesn't mean their religion is bad.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they cannot condemn our religion. The books are perfect. (someone brings some prasāda)

Prabhupāda: Ne, one or two will do. Why so many? That's... So what benefit he has got, this Manasvī?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually he is at a great loss. Any position he had here when he was a devotee, he has lost everything. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...with this lantern? Electricity was introduced when we were boy, and that also not every house could provide electricity. Formerly they used to utilize gas, coal gas. If one man has got gaslight in his house, he is considered to be rich man. And gas... Mantle... Formerly electricity was... What is that? Carbon? Two carbon? In the morning it has to be changed. That Mahatma Gandhi Road was Harrison Road. So in our childhood, when the carbon would be changed, they would throw. We shall collect it.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Some were, not all. And the Muhammadans, the could not convert any gentleman to Muhammadanism. Maybe one or two, say. Very... And similarly, Christian also. No high-class man became Christian. One or two. That is for some other purpose. Just like in Scottish Churches College, the Christian Indians were given more preference. There was one Mr. Raya. He would not speak in Bengali. Even if some Bengali student would like to talk with him Bengali, he would answer in English. (laughs) He was so sharp. (Bengali) (Hindi) You understand Hindi any of you? There is a song in the Howrah Bridge, pontoon bridge. So when this Howrah Bridge..., not this bridge. Up to 1900... When my daughter was married, in 1941, up to that time there was a bridge connecting Howrah and Calcutta, pontoon bridge. That we were seeing from childhood, from our birth. So this was an astonishment in India. They wrote song, (Hindi), that "How wonderful bridge this sāheb company...," because India was being governed by East Indian Company... After mutiny, Queen Victoria took charge. Otherwise the British government was known as Company Raja Sahib, East India Company. So the East India Company, they constructed this temple, er, bridge. So there is a song, (Hindi), like that. So this East India Company... Therefore this railway was known, "East India Railway." That is the first beginning of railway, from Calcutta to Burdwan, beginning of Ind... There was no railway in India.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: He's National Council of Churches.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He's the head of the National Council of Churches, this Dean Kelly, and he is a very big proponent of our movement also.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is sending so many men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, we're going to win. But actually it is a dangerous situation, how the government is becoming so callous in the United States.

Brahmānanda: They compare it to Russia, because in Russia the system is if someone goes against...

Prabhupāda: State.

Brahmānanda: ...the state, they put him in a mental hospital. They don't put him in jail but in a mental hospital.

Prabhupāda: And kill him.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They exploit the sentiment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A man, when he thinks of his occupation, he thinks, "I can still get married and be the leader of the church. I'll get married, have a family, and this will be my profession, to be a priest."

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's what it is. It's a profession only.

Prabhupāda: Profession.

Hari-śauri: One of my friends was considering, "Shall I..." He had come to a point where he was thinking, "Now I'll either become a police officer or I'll become a priest." But he couldn't quite make his mind up.

Prabhupāda: In our college days we read one book. That was our textbook. It is a story, that a boy was meant for church and he fell in love with a girl. That is the psychology. Cloister and the Hearth. What is the cloister?

Hari-śauri: Inner sanctuary.

Prabhupāda: And hearth? Home.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Home.

Prabhupāda: That book was named Cloister and Hearth. So get Bombay finished very quickly and book-printing, stock, propaganda.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: They are already finished. You showed me that... Already finished.

Satsvarūpa: Jayatīrtha sent a cartoon from Punch Magazine. Big, big church, and the priest in the pulpit, and there's only lady there, and in the sermon he's saying, "Mrs. Bennett, you have to give more in the collection." She's the only one there. He said, "I think you will enjoy this, Prabhupāda. It shows the position of churches in the West."

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen London. So many hundreds of churches are closed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we're buying all the churches.

Prabhupāda: All churches are closed.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: For every letter that the deprogrammers write to some Congressmen, they have to write a letter. For every speech that the deprogrammers give, they must give a speech. That is the only way it will work. Just like they applied to the Catholic Church to speak in the classes of the Catholic Church about cults and deprogramming. So now we have also had our people apply to the Catholic Church that we can also speak in their classes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: So then you have to go?

Ādi-keśava: But they have to do it because they will listen to the professionals. They won't listen to us. They say, "You just want to talk your religion." But if a professional man, a big professor, comes in and says, "I can tell you..."

Prabhupāda: We have got so many professor friends. There is Dr. Stillson Judah, Dr. Sukla. There are so many.

Room Conversation about BTG the Moon -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: Their first target was that Moonie, Moons. Their first target was that Korean Unification Church, the Moonies. Now we're the big target.

Prabhupāda: Moon is finished? No.

Hari-śauri: Practically.

Prabhupāda: What about Transcendental Meditation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are very clever. But even now they're coming under great criticism. They're starting to become criticized also. But they are much... He has so much watered down the whole thing that it doesn't disturb hardly anybody. It's no... It's like ten minutes a day. "Keep your job. Keep your position. Do everything you're doing. Just ten minutes a day go to sleep. Say some mantra and sleep." So no one is very much upset by it. It doesn't demand anything, doesn't demand very much at all, like taking a pill.

Prabhupāda: He's very clever.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is civilization? Swarms of men, church-haters. In the morning they are coming, just like swarms of ants. Is that right?

Hari-śauri: Then in the evening again rushing home.

Prabhupāda: Again going to the pigeonhole. And whole night sex, and then morning go. This is their home. And for this purpose, big, big arrangement of railway lines, this, that. Automobiles and buses and whoosh, whoosh. Unnecessary things. It is a life of great struggle.

Hari-śauri: A death sentence with hard labor.

Prabhupāda: Try to understand the philosophy more and more. Read Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. And to your best capacity try to learn. Then you will get power more and more.

Srila Prabhupada Vigil -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: He's our great friend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man is very big man in Christian church. He's a very good friend of ours.

Prabhupāda: He's very big man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He came with us to the court.

Prabhupāda: Impressed.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Was he in Scottish Churches College?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I never know his background.

Prabhupāda: I think in our student there was some Kundu. The same?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He looks like in his sixties.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then... May or may not. It doesn't matter.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We were discussing about life, and he was talking about the idea that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom.

Prabhupāda: Atom is matter. And within atom there is God. That is God.

Conversation, 'Rascal Editors,' and Morning Talk -- June 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: The dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa... (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). Generally people take to religion for improving economic condition. It is going on. They go to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." And they'll go to the temple: "O mother Kālī, give me this. O father Śiva, give me this." So they take it for economic development, dharma. But that is is not the proper way. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Dharma should be executed for stopping this material condition of life, apavarga. Pavarga. This material life is pavarga. Pa means pariśrama, hard labor. And pha means phena, so hard labor that foams comes. Pa, pha, ba. And still it is baffled, vyartha. Bha: and always fear. And ma means death.

Conversation, 'Rascal Editors,' and Morning Talk -- June 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is inquisitive, jijñāsu. That is there, a class of men, jijñāsu. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. They are pious. "Actually what is the truth?" Jijñāsu. And jñānī. Two third class, fourth class, and two, first class, second class. The first class, second class, is jñānī jijñāsu, and third class, fourth class, ārto arthārthī. They approach God. The third class, fourth class, those who are in need of money or in distress and seeking the favor of Kṛṣṇa, they are third class, fourth class. And the jijñāsu and jñānī, they are first class, second class. Inquisitive, they want to know the truth. That is first class. Jijñāsu—"What is that first class?" He is second class. And ārto arthārthī, he is in need. If he gets some money, then he forgets God. That's all. His disease is cured. Then finished business. "O God, give us our bread." As soon as I get bread, then finished church.

Conversation with Surendra Kumar and O.B.L. Kapoor -- June 26, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Oh. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). There are two kinds of religion. One is param, and one is aparam. Para means real religion. Yes. Or spiritual. And apara means material. Generally people are engaged in apara religion. They go to temple, they go to church...

Surendra Kumar: And mosques.

Prabhupāda: ...and mosques for some material benefit. Just like these Christians, "O God, give us our daily bread." We also go to temple. So that is apara. And para means when there will be no demand.

Letter from Yugoslavia--'Books!' -- June 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Centers were meant for that purpose, for giving knowledge, not for show, a church, a show. What is knowledge?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we have our centers established.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can concentrate on...

Prabhupāda: Giving knowledge.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...vigorous preaching.

Prabhupāda: So I am not in favor of sending... They are not receptive at the present time. Here in Europe, although they are Communist, they are now hankering after some knowledge. These rascals are very uncivilized.

Conversation -- June 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: They are giving in the churches more and more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, when anyone visits Vṛndāvana, they have to see Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, compulsory.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say that Balarāma is so strong, but you have brought Balarāma here, so you are stronger, I think.

Prabhupāda: No, this is the right place(?), Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, Mother Yaśodā's sons, Yaśodā-nandana, Rohiṇī-nandana. Kṛṣṇa's only business is how to deal with gopīs. Gopī-jana-rañjana. And... Gopī-jana-rañjana?

Śatadhanya: Gopī-jana-vallabha?

Prabhupāda: Gopī-jana-vallabha, yes. That's all.

Room Conversation with Mr. Myer -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Mr. Myer: It is abominable. If they help ISKCON, then there are all the churches in India. They'll want to plead...

Prabhupāda: Then it is not helping ISKCON.

Mr. Myer: No, you see, they're...

Prabhupāda: It is not helping ISKCON.

Mr. Myer: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Within the scope the support is gone.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of support. It is etiquette.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: It is... It must be failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now in Russia they seem to be tending more and more to give up all of this false philosophy. They're allowing churches again.

Prabhupāda: Lenin, Stalin, they were guṇḍās. Guṇḍā philosophy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Marx?

Prabhupāda: He was a rascal. What is his philosophy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Economic philosophy.

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is that, basic principle?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Basic principle is that the...

Prabhupāda: I do not care to read this nonsense, never. What I hear from you, that's all. I tell them, "Mūḍhas, narādhamas." That's all.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Haṁsadūta: I once heard that when some devotees wanted to buy a church in America you suggested that they should keep the altar and next put Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and give simultaneous lecture from Bible and from Bhagavad-gītā. I was thinking that in Shree Lanka, if it would be all right to have a deity of Lord Buddha and speak simultaneously on the Dharmapatha(?) and also Bhagavad-gītā, showing how Bhagavad-gītā is beyond the stage of nirvāṇa. Is that a good idea, Prabhupāda, or not?

Prabhupāda: Good idea, provided you can present properly.

Haṁsadūta: Because Buddhists come and they ask, "If Lord Buddha was an incarnation of Viṣṇu, then why he did not teach about God? Why did he not teach about the soul?" So I always explain to them it's like teachings ABC's and teaching advanced literature. He was teaching ABC. That was required. He did not go into higher subject matter.

Prabhupāda: First of all the Buddha wanted to make them sinless, "Don't kill." And you are not following that even. His business was to stop sinful life. In sinful life one cannot understand God as He is.

Room Conversation -- November 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: It is my duty. (laughter) There was a professor in Scottish Churches' College. So when you would say something, he would reply, "That's my duty," "juti," j-u-t-i. (chuckles) So there was a student. He said... So he said, "Is that Scottish pronunciation?" (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Pass urine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...properly fixed up?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it properly fixed up?

Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm. All right.

Page Title:Church (Conv. 1976 - 1977)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:17 of Aug, 2011
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=140, Let=0
No. of Quotes:140