Church (Conv. 1974 - 1975)

Expressions researched:
"church" |"churches" |"churchgoing" |"churchianity" |"churchtaker" |"ecclesiastical" |"ecclesiastics"

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 5, 1974, Los Angeles:

Yaśodānandana: Even though they have big posts...

Prabhupāda: No, either purify or... You come with us and you will be purified. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā cāi. We don't want anything from you. You, I shall give you eating. I shall give you everything. You simply come with me and chant. This is our propaganda. We don't say that "You do this, do that." We don't do anything. Simply come with us and chant.

Bali Mardana: Just like the Catholic church, in different places around the world they feed the people.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Bali Mardana: But we cannot only... If we not only feed them, but give them chanting and dancing...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Even prayers are allowed, unless there is scientific knowledge of God, that will not help. The prayer's still going on in the churches, but what improvement? They have become hackneyed. It requires training.

Prajāpati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is taking a chance to educate people.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Prayer, to advise people to offer prayer is not bad, but unless one is purified, that will not stay. But prayer, they are still going to church, but still, the churches are being closed.

Umāpati: Still, that could be influenced in the right direction afterward.

Prabhupāda: Well, influenced, to a certain extent. But as soon as you say, "prayer to God," they will laugh, "What is this God and prayer?"

Umāpati: Well, some people won't. Some people still have at least a sentimental attachment to God, and they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in school.

Prabhupāda: Do something practical. "Prayer means to chant the holy name of the Lord. If you have no holy name of the Lord, we are giving you. So you have no expenditure, neither you have any loss. So why don't you try this? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This will be reasonable. Is it not? And if they actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the prayer and everything will be done.

Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To sacrifice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That if you want to eat meat and chicken, then you first of all sacrifice before that deity. So at least they'll be restricted from eating meat purchased from slaughterhouse. But this rascal civilization, one side they're advertising "Stop cruelty to animals," another side they're opening unrestricted slaughterhouse. Just see. One side they're allowing marriage of woman every week, another side contraceptive. Just see their contradiction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...there is animal sacrifice in the church. Is there any such pre...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jews, they have got.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: No, they will say that "We have not forgotten God. We go to church regularly." And the Mohammedans will say that "We go to mosque. So why we have forgotten God?"

Pañcadraviḍa: Going to church or mosque... When we are speaking to the people, we don't discourage that they change their religion or anything.

Prabhupāda: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that "We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?"

Pañcadraviḍa: Because they are not serving Him... (break) ...relationship. They are not actively serving Him. They are engaging themselves... We see practically that some people say they are theists...

Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of service?

Pañcadraviḍa: Service means a relationship of serving out of love. So people are simply serving their stomach or...

Prabhupāda: "So if I haven't got love, then why I am coming to church?"

Satsvarūpa: Well, we're educating them what is God. They go to church, but they don't know. "What is your idea of God?" We ask them.

Prabhupāda: "Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God."

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Satsvarūpa: Well, there are symptoms if you... We don't discourage, as Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is answered. "If I haven't got love for God, then why I am coming to church?"

Pañcadraviḍa: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church?

Prabhupāda: No. "Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money."

Pañcadraviḍa: But we're also teaching that this love, love is not just based on sentimentality. Love is also practical. Just like in this world, when there is relationship between man and woman, there is a practical exchange of love. It is not simply that love is only based on words. Also one is based on actions. We can judge how much a man is developing love by what his activities are.

Prabhupāda: "So what you have found in me that you have concluded that I have no love for God.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: "You say. That you have charged, but on what account you say like that? What I have done?"

Nitai: Because you go to church only for one hour all week. The rest of the time is not spent in serving God.

Prabhupāda: That may be. But that does not mean that I do not love God.

Satsvarūpa: Well we don't criticize your love of God, but it can be increased. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā always think of Him in whatever you do, during your work, during the week. We can teach you how to... You like to go to church? That shows you have some affection for God. We can teach you how, wherever you are, to think of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: This is not proper answer.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: "But we are also preaching." Mohammedans will say, "We preaching. We take also sword sometimes. If he does not believe in God, we cut his throat." The Christian missionaries, they will also say that "We are also going on all over the world. We have made so many big church."

Pañcadraviḍa: We have also got our work, and we show them...

Prabhupāda: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing.

Pañcadraviḍa: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one...

Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours."

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: "That may be in your śāstra. But what is the extra thing? That chanting, that's all right. We also go to the church and sing hymns also."

Satsvarūpa: The fact is you do not know who God is. You do not know how God works. So...

Prabhupāda: "No, I know in my own way."

Satsvarūpa: That is not sufficient. You should develop, become educated.

Prabhupāda: "But what is the use of it, having sufficiency? What is the distinction, that you have got sufficient love and therefore there is distin...?"

Satsvarūpa: Ah, I may not have sufficient love, but one who does, he'll increase every way...

Prabhupāda: "But then if you have no sufficient love, you cannot preach. Why you are preaching for me? You just show me example."

Interview with Minister -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati:

Prabhupāda: Temple... Just like these Christian missionaries, they constructed so many churches. But those churches are now being closed. In London, I have got specific knowledge, hundreds of churches are no more being used as church. Some of them are being used as go-down. And some of the churches have been purchased by other religious sect. We have purchased one church in Los Angeles. So opening temple is good but who will maintain the spirit of temple worship?

Minister: That is by (Hindi).

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Therefore there must be side by side propaganda who can maintain the temples. (Hindi) Oh, this is anna-prasāda, so I will take later on. (Hindi) That temple is being constructed under whose supervision?

Minister: That Ganapati Sthapati, in our state.

Indian man: Sthapati is a temple engineer. He will lay out the plans as per the (indistinct) śāstra and as per the rules laid down for the construction all temples in India. No other (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He has gone there? No.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Christianity it is really Vaiṣṇavism, but they, unfortunately... The church...

Prabhupāda: Mohamedanism... Mohammedanism...

Dr. Patel: The church has spoiled it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Church has defaced it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere.

Dr. Patel: It is the church, Christian church, which has defaced Christism.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everywhere the followers make the whole thing bungled. Hm. Go on.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Dhanañjaya: Not historical, more philosophical. And he writes many papers for the Catholic Church, for the Vatican.

Prabhupāda: I was also student of philosophy in 1916 to 20 under professor Dr. W.S. Urquhart in Calcutta, Scottish Churches' College. He was my professor. Later on, he became vice chancellor, very big philosopher. We read Dr. Stephens Metaphysics. What is your special subject for study?

Richard Webster: Well, it's rather difficult to say. I suppose medieval philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Medieval.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Within the Christian religion there is a strong emphasis on possible failure and forgiveness.

Prabhupāda: No. Forgiveness is... I know that in church the confession program is there. Forgiveness... Suppose you are or I am an offender. I ask your forgiveness. So you can forgive me once, twice, thrice, not more than that. You cannot make it a profession that you go on committing sins and God will forgive you. No, that is not possible. That is misconception. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). This sudurācāraḥ, means offender, that is not willful offense. One person is accustomed to some bad habits, but he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Well. I understand. But I only think that the dietetic rules would be perhaps an obstacle to the spreading... I mean certain rules which are clean against European or American custom might constitute an obstacle to the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I mean, in the Roman Catholic church you have the monks. Then you have the laity who observe less strict rules without being considered outside God. And you don't have that, do you? I mean, the Kṛṣṇa movement is a movement of what we should call monks or religious... There is no laity in the Roman Catholic Christian sense, people of the world who are doing messy things, I mean, trading the drugs or whatever it is because it's a job they have to do, but belong to the church without being strictly religious.

Prabhupāda: At least the church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: These are material activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have created all these things. God has not sanctioned. God has not sanctioned for running on a factory. Therefore as soon as you run on a factory, you simply commit sinful activities. In the Bhagavad-gītā we don't find any such sanction that you run on a factory, a slaughterhouse or the brothel and this business and brewery no such sanction. But you have done at your whims. Just like in the last war, Mr. Churchill sanctioned or requested everyone to go to the church. What is that "V"? Victory? Yes. And now... Before starting the war, Mr. Churchill and company did not take any sanction. And when they were in reverse condition, then, that time, they are going to the church for victory. So God cannot be made in such a way as order supplier. That is not possible. This is not prayer. You start war whimsically, and when you are in a precarious condition you go to the church and pray God, "Give us victory." What is this? This is commanding God. But you have to follow the commands of God. That is your position.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Recently we have received report. Some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introducing in their class. Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography, of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold four millions pieces of literature in the western countries. So we are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles, they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me, and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, you chant always God's name on these beads.

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

(buzzer sounds) And we worship... (pause) (one man is apparently showing pictures) This is also a church?

Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama.

Prabhupāda: Buddhism.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Nitāi: They cannot face anybody who knows something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They make this propaganda. They take bread to the peasants, and the peasants go to the church, and ask, "O God, give us our daily bread." Then they ask, "Has God given you bread?" So they say, "No sir." "You ask us." "Oh, Mr. Communist, give me bread." "Ah, take as much..." "Who is better?" "You are better." They'll say like that. But they have no sense that wherefrom this rascal has brought this bread. If God had, would not have given the wheat, wherefrom he would make the bread? But that, they have no sense. This is going on. If they had sense, they would immediately reply, "You are not giving the bread. God has given this bread." Because he prepared bread from the wheat. And wheat has been given by God. "You cannot prepare food. Therefore God has given."

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid.

Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. "Why Christians are killing?" Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That's all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian? Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show-bottles, that's all. There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically... Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming. Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in... I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that?

Yogeśvara: Juice.

Prabhupāda: I have got it. You can distribute it.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Satsvarūpa: You said: "Well, if you're sinful, there's no question of going on to a higher topic."

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is specially mentioned in the Bhāgavata: vinā paśughnāt.

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt

pumān virajyeta vinā paśughnāt

(SB 10.1.4)

Everyone can understand the truth except the rascals who are meat-eaters. Vinā paśughnāt. Paśughnāt. Paśu means animals, and ghna means killer. Christ therefore first says, "You shall not kill." These rascals are killers from the very beginning, and they're continuing. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are paśughna, they cannot understand. They're thinking, "We are doing very good work, philanthropic work, opening hospitals and public roads, and every ten years, we are fighting and killing all the men population." They're happy. They are taking credit for these big, big buildings, but this is duṣkṛtina because simply these buildings are meant for committing sinful activities. That's all. "Wine, women, meat-eating, gambling. We are civilized." (break) ...this Geneva very many churches.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Guru-gaurāṅga: Many churches in Geneva? No.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guru-gaurāṅga: Not so many.

Prabhupāda: That means godless. Eh?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When I first came to America, Butler, in Pennsylvania, that is small county, but at least one dozen churches I found. I very much appreciated, that the people are not... And they're going regularly, churches. I was invited in many churches. I was...

Yogeśvara: To lecture?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The, the girl, that, my friend's son's wife... He's Indian. He has married an English girl. So I was guest at his house. So that girl, Sally... Selly or Sally?

Yogeśvara: Sally.

Prabhupāda: She was arranging so many meetings. She was very intelligent girl. So churches, many churches, she... Some of the churches purchased my books.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So I was giving lectures. They have churches. That means God conscious persons there. I never criticized church, mosque, never. Because whatever it may be, at least there is God consciousness. So they're good. In details... But when they disobey... I criticize only these rascals, disobey the commandments. Otherwise, we have no... We don't criticize.

Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian.

Prabhupāda: Why? God is one. Why we shall be sectarian? According to his circumstances, he is doing. And that prayer is also bhakti, offering prayer. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanaṁ vandanam (SB 7.5.23). This vandana is prayer. So that is bhakti, one of the items of bhakti.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Many of the young people now, they look to the Bible for instruction, but they don't like to go to church at all. They feel that the church is hypocritical.

Prabhupāda: Hypocritical, simply hypocritical. All these priests and cardinals and popes, they're all hypocritical. Getting high, highly salaried, high salaries, and drinking wine. And in America there is a hospital, five thousand drunkard priests are admitted there to cure their drinking habit. That was published in a paper. And they're sanctioning man to man marriage. That was published in that, what is that? Watch?

Satsvarūpa: Watchtower?

Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

French Man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the (indistinct) of this country. There are two main conceptions—the Oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western...

Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of any particular church. We are just trying to understand the word relation. If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship. So in the Bible it is clearly said, "O Father," so the relation is father and son.

Priest: No.

Prabhupāda: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no?

Priest: You have to... I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced but what is my own experience.

Prabhupāda: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that... It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says, "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya. So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that this is bad and this is good. No. Both of them are bhakti. To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes,

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

(SB 7.5.23)

Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? This is also prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, ārto arthārthī jñānī ca catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ. Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ, one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say, "Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say, "No, sir." "Now pray to us." "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have got this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured; that is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you... Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, He is supplying for everyone.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They do not know what is responsibility.

Devotee (3): They would say that so many have taken God realization as a responsibility following some Christian church or something like that, but they are also frustrated.

Prabhupāda: We are not frustrated. We are not frustrated. Are you frustrated? (laughter) How the rascal says frustrated? If you take false thing, then you will be frustrated. If you take real path of God realization, there is no question of frustration. It is ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, increasing pleasure. No frustration.

Devotee (3): But they'd say that no one has real information of God.

Prabhupāda: You have no, rascal, because you are rascal. I have got. You just wash my feet and I will inform you.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī. We have no such objection.

Yogeśvara: I can remember now. When I was in college, there were so many groups trying to reform the young people, the Y.M.C.A, the church groups, so many different social-working groups, trying to make young people become more, not so restless, not so much wild, but no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said, "Oh, he's the one, there."

Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting?

Jyotirmayī: Yes. It will be later. It will be at six-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming, will be a psychiatrist.

Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda Hari-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances.)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of your, this horseless carriage? You are dependent on God. What you have created? And what you can do? You can create war only to fight, man to man, and when you are in danger, then you go to church; "God save us. God save us." That you can create. And as far as peacefully living, accepting God as the Supreme, you can create war. That's all. That means... Like dogs, they create war. So this is a nice park. Why do you go so far? It is nice park. Now you create something to enjoy. Just like who created this building? Napoleon?

French Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

French Devotee (1): It's not by Napoleon. It's just...

Paramahaṁsa: What is it from?

French Devotee (2): It's a new building.

French Devotee (1): It's new. It's not hundred years old. It's called Marine Museum, Museum of the Marines.

Paramahaṁsa: It's a museum for exhibitions.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. The man who created, he's kicked out. "Get out!" What did he do? "I have created this thing. I must enjoy."

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: And according to Vedic understanding, one who does not understand what is soul—he identifies himself with this body—he is animal.

Church Representative: This is also a fundamental idea of Christian spiritual. (French)

Prabhupāda: So in the Vedic language, one who has taken this body as self, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13), and sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, and own men, the family, society, community, national, not outside that, sva-dhīḥ, "They are my own men." sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, and the land of birth worshipable, nationalism, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit, and holy place, to take bath in the water of Jordan or Ganges, such persons are considered as go-kharaḥ. Go means cow, kharaḥ means ass. That means animals. What is your conception of the soul? Do you believe in the soul? (French)

Yogeśvara: He understands English.

Church Representative: I understand. My conception of soul?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Church Representative: Could you (sic:) precise your question, because what do you mean by this...

Prabhupāda: Soul...

Church Representative: Yes, I know... I cannot say that I know what is soul. I know that there are souls, that I have a soul. But I think that it's very difficult to give adequate... (French)

Yogeśvara: He says he knows that he has a soul, but he thinks it would be hard to give an accurate definition of the soul.

Prabhupāda: But if he knows what is soul, where is the difficulty to give definition? (French)

Yogeśvara: (translating) So he says he can accept that he has a soul...

Church Representative: Certainly, I accept.

Yogeśvara: But it would be hard to describe, he thinks, the nature of the soul. The body, which is something tangible, we can describe. But something of a spiritual nature like the soul must be much more difficult to describe.

Prabhupāda: You can describe it by the negative way, that soul is not body.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Church Representative: I have nothing to say against. But I cannot say that it is a definition. Do you say in English, definition?

Prabhupāda: Yes, definition.

Church Representative: I cannot say that it is a definition. It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith.

Prabhupāda: No, it is characteristic. Definition means you mention the characteristic. That is definition. Definition, you mention the characteristic. So that can be mentioned directly, or if it is not perceivable, then you can define in opposite way. Just like we have got experience: everything in the material world, it is beginning. There is a beginning. Anything of this—your body, my body, everything—it has got a beginning, and it has got an end. So it is stated, na jāyate na mriyate vā: "It has no beginning, no end." And nityaḥ, eternal, śāśvataḥ, very old, purāṇaḥ. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "It is not destroyed, annihilated, after the destruction of the body." So if we accept this definition, then we can understand the soul is eternal. Our characteristic, if we accept these characteristics, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), after the destruction of body the soul is never destroyed, then you can understand the soul is eternal. And it is clearly stated, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "After the destruction of the body, it is not destroyed." So, it means it takes another body.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Church Representative: No context, problematic.

Prabhupāda: It may be problematic to some, but Absolute Truth can be understood by śruti, authoritative hearing.

Karandhara: When the Absolute reveals Himself, then... Śruti means the absolute knowledge from the Absolute, from God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the Absolute Truth is known by the absolute method which is called śruti, hearing from the Absolute. Absolute cannot be imagined or speculated. (French)

Yogeśvara: He says that is a fundamental point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore we accept Absolute Truth from the Absolute.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Church Representative: (French)

Bhagavān: You are right on the brink of Absolute Truth. Don't run away. (laughs)

Yogeśvara: He says that even though he has a great interest in this discussion, because he has prior commitments, he's unable to stay.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all...

Bhagavān: Take some prasādam. (French)

Yogeśvara: He already has the books.

Prabhupāda: He has our...? He has got...? (French) That's all right. He has got.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Karandhara: He's the head of the church but he cannot... He feels he's not qualified to discuss spiritual matters.

Bhagavān: Once last year a man in London, a professor in a religious school, said the same thing, and you said that according to our Vedic philosophy, if a teacher doesn't know something, he should step down. And His answer was, "I can't do that." (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Paramahaṁsa: It seems amazing that such fundamental questions, they remain mute, such people like this, who are supposed to be qualified to bring other people out of their distress.

Karandhara: That's why the church now has lost everyone, because even its leaders are saying, "I don't know anything. I'm just fumbling around like everyone else. I don't really know anything definite."

Prabhupāda: Still, he is leader?

Karandhara: Yes.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man to man marriage. Most unnatural.

Devotee: Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church. So then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man to man marriage.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers.

Bhagavān: It's a matter of money.

Prabhupāda: And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the church? (laughs)

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God.

Prabhupāda: Because the church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there?

Devotee: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not... They were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out.

Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Bhagavān: Folies Bergere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act... Nobody goes to... Beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful, that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina. Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on. Just like we are trying to do. Take prasādam, worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches, but there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina. They have got merit, to construct very nice wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is impersonal. (French) Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person. How the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said, "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then He's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then... The Christians pray in the church, "Oh, God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "Oh Father." Then why "only son"?

French Woman: We say that the son is...

Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son.

French Woman: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes.

Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? (French)

French Woman: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. (laughter) (French)

Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption.

Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus's body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

French Woman: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history because everybody has his own documentation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that... Here, at least, in London, I have seen. There are so many churches vacant. (French)

Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference, last night and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God?

Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle... (to Jyotirmayī:) Explain. (French) Similarly, this huge, gigantic, cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily... Father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme Father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "I am the seed-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life."

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is fact. It is not... Religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son... Without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son, or most. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment.

Professor Durckheim: It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says, "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that... The Christians, so-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say, "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: Yes. That is what in our country is... I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief...

Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief which is not faith has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts, and they don't believe what you tell them. They just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a..., big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so?

Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that, first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas, that is perfect. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge... Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. So that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the (indistinct) step you get somewhere, you see where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you...

Prabhupāda: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction that is also perfect. But they do not follow.

Professor Durckheim: They do not...

Prabhupāda: They do not follow.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prof. Pater Porsch: Without drugs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest he showed one pamphlet that these boys, they're our boys but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it? He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church—but it was not going on. It was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of... the same men, the same place. The crowd is so... Why? I have not brought all these men from India. Judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations, they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these... They have given up everything.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: ...in orthodox church and also very... They chant the name of Jesus. Again and again, the whole day, they say the word "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, have pity of us. Jesus, Jesus have pity of us."

Prabhupāda: But Jesus said, "God, hallowed by Thy name." Jesus never said that "You chant my name." No gentleman says like that. He said, "Hallowed be God. Hallowed by Thy name." And why they are sectarian? If there is name already, why do they not chant it? And what is the harm?

Haṁsadūta: There are so many places. At one point he says, "I have kept them in your name. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." So many references to the name.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Professor Durckheim: The Jews have the Jehova, Jehova name, Jehova, but they don't chant.

Prabhupāda: No? They are not following.

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman Catholic and also the customs of life... It's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary.

Prabhupāda: Like us.

Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me."

Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language?

Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo.

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?

Pater Emmanuel: No.

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up...

Pater Emmanuel: On my part, I...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty-four hours. Actually this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen. Hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousands churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian preach in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically, we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees... We are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see?

Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors, but now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works with the physical level, and the psychiatrist works with the emotional mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease.

Room Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly...

Satsvarūpa: At seven-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high-ranking in the church.

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Satsvarūpa: Ten after six, quarter after six. (end)

Room Conversation with Bishop Kelly -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Bishop Kelly: Oh, yes. Your Grace, there is one thing I wish to ask you. Do you believe in some sort of universal but inherent deficiency in human nature, in other words, that man irrespective of his environment, irrespective of where he comes from, that he has, he is prone to evil? In the Catholic church we call that original sin. Original sin is an inherited deficiency in which man is turned away from God rather than turned towards God, and that he holds within himself a seed of failure in..., spiritually, and also a seed of unreliability so that the very makeup of man demands the enlightening touch and the helping hand of God so that he may overcome his inherent and abiding deficiency. So we hold that that is the nature of things, that man... It's not just a good thing or an advisable thing that man reaches out to and for God, but it is a necessary thing, that God not merely is there to improve upon what you might say would be a natural goodness of man, but man has a natural deficiency he needs God to overcome. And as he overcomes, of course, he progresses further and he is enriched by God. But we hold that very clearly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in one of the Vedic literature, that:

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

(Cc. madhya 22.107)

The inherent principle is eternally a fact, his obedience to God. But artificially he has covered it, artificially. The God consciousness is there in everyone, but by so-called material advancement, he has forgotten. He has his obedience to God, natural. Even the aborigines in the forest, they also submit to the manifestation of God's different energies. As soon as there is some lightning and there is thunderbolt, they immediately... They offer obeisances. As soon as they see a big sea, ocean, they offer obeisances. So that is inherent. But due to the material association it is covered.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is the... It is actually rational discrimination. The Christians, they thought, "Now these Englishmen, they'll make Hindu religion very prominent." Because it is a fact. If we introduce such three-four celebrations, then Christianity will be finished. But what is there? Christianity, there is nothing. Simply some dry words. And actually, they're seeing, nobody's coming to the church. So in this way, if they some, relish something better, then whatever is there, that will be finished, also. Therefore in London we wanted to purchase a church.

Bali Mardana: A big cathedral.

Prabhupāda: Ah. And they said, "We shall burn it down; still, we shall not give to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They said like that.

Bahulāśva: Rascals.

Prabhupāda: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their...

Prabhupāda: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen?

Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see.

Prabhupāda: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: No, no. For purchasing the church.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bali Mardana: They're also afraid that we will take over.

Prabhupāda: But that is not yet finished.

Bali Mardana: Well, it is going on now. The one building is finished. Other building is still... Until we are living there...

Prabhupāda: That, one Japanese gentleman wrote in a paper that "This Movement, as it growing fast, within ten years the whole world will become Hindu ."

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: They can protest in front of Downing Street, in front of the Prime Minister's residence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, protest meeting, go on, organize. Go, all of you. What is the talking here? They have seen that the movement is growing more important. So this is discrimination. In England the Church is very strong. They have organized like this. You quote the publication, "There is no alarm." Of course, it is on the plea of police protest, police objection. The police objection means one's religious ceremony should be stopped? What is this? Simply for some technical mistake, now they can warn that "You must do it. Otherwise it will be stopped." How is that? No. That means this is police government? Does it mean it is police government?

Bali Mardana: Police state.

Prabhupāda: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahādeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: It is tactic. They're factually seeing that "These people, they have brought some Jagannātha and thousands of people following it. And nobody's coming to our church?" It is very common sense thing. The church is being closed. And all the young men, they are joining. Not old men, old fools. No. All young, flourishing, young men are joining. So they want to stop it now. (pause) Take it. (break)

Madhukāṇṭa: ...regard, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we are making counter-propaganda against māyā, and that māyā will make propaganda very strong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhukāṇṭa: So we must become very sincere devotees or...

Prabhupāda: Unless we are very sincere, we cannot cope with māyā. That is not possible. If you remain a servant of māyā, you cannot conquer over māyā. You must be very sincere servant of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can conquer. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. It is clearly said. Otherwise you are subjected to the tricks of māyā.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you have to search out such person. Otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Now that question will be: "How to find out such person?" The next question will be. But unless you approach such perfect person, you cannot have perfect knowledge. That is a fact. Therefore the conclusion is that we should not speculate about perfect knowledge, but we should try to approach the perfect person and receive knowledge from him. This is the conclusion.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's more or less saying that in the Catholic church how they also demand the same type of faith. He said they all have a bad experience with that. And then he more or less...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I can understand. The thing is that everyone can take advantage of this statement that "I am perfect." Just like so many rogues and bogus persons come. But it is your duty to know whether he is perfect. It is your duty to test whether he is perfect. That requires intelligence. If you unintelligently accept some bogus person as perfect, that is your fault. You must be assured that "The person from whom I am asking, he is perfect." Then you take it. Otherwise don't take.

Professor: Can I put a question? Why do you always say, "From a perfect person"?

Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge must be perfect; otherwise imperfect knowledge.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (6): Yes, I understand now. I spoke earlier with some people... In other words you say we are co-eternal with the father just as Christ is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are all eternal. That is nityo nityānām. I have already explained. Nitya means eternal. There are two eternals: one chief eternal, God, and one subordinate eternals, they are plural number. God is one, and we are many. Father is one; the children are many. Similarly, both the father and the children are eternal. God is not created, and the childrens are not created. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. All these living entity, they are never created; neither they ever die. Nityaḥ śāśvatam na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are eternal, ever existing. Even after the destruction of the body, they are not annihilated. So God is eternal. That I have already explained. And we living entities, we are also eternal. How the son can be otherwise? If the father is eternal, the son is also eternal. The son cannot be... Because son is the expansion, part and parcel of the father, so all the qualities of the father are there. The only quality difference is the father maintainer and the sons are maintained. That means the father has got unlimited resources to maintain the sons, and the sons, they have no resources. They are maintained by the father. This is perfect philosophy. Otherwise, if you are self-sufficient, then why you go to church and beg father, "Give us our daily bread"? That is... That means you are maintained. You are begging the father, "Please maintain us." So if the Supreme Being, who is maintaining millions of trillions of living entities, He is great, or the living entities who are maintained by God, they are great? Therefore God is great, and we are subordinate. This is natural conclusion. How you can go otherwise? If you are self-sufficient, why go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread"? Are you independent?

Guest (6): No. I am a creature.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: A devotee means, real devotee means, he has no purpose for material gain. That is real devotee. Now we have to see what kind of devotee he is. There are two kinds of devotees: with purpose and without purpose. The "without purpose" devotee is pure devotee, and "with purpose" devotee, they are material devotee. That is distinguished in Bhagavad-gītā,

ārto arthārthī jijñāsur

jñānī ca bharatarṣabha

catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ

(janāḥ) sukṛtinaḥ arjuna

(BG 7.16)

There are pious men and sinful men. Sinful men cannot become devotee. Pious men can become devotee.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 7.28)

These are the definitions. One who is completely free from all sinful activities, they can become pure devotee. So even after becoming free from sinful activities, if one has got some motive, then he is also not pure devotee. Pure devotee means without any material motive: "God is great. I am His subordinate. I must love God. I must render service to God." This is pure devotee. And if I go to God, "Please give me my bread," that is not pure devotee, because he has got some purpose. As soon as his purpose is fulfilled, he may turn nondevotee. Just like one of my German Godbrothers said that in Germany during the last war, Second World War, many women used to go to the church to pray to God to get back their husband, son, or brother. But nobody came back. And they became atheist: "There is no God. We prayed so much, and my father did not come, my brother did not come, my son did not come." So motivated devotion is sometimes frustrated, and they become atheist.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So now there are in India so many township development. They are constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme, very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say "nonproductive endeavor"—means there is no income. Simply you have to spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society. Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few may be interested.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: This nonsense thing has created all problems. Therefore Vedic civilization is—first teaching is brahmacārī—how to learn to avoid sex life. If one can continue without sex life he is praised, naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. If one cannot, all right you become a perfect gṛhastha. So many rules and regulations. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāma, that is all right, but if you use sex life for sense gratification and becomes implicated in so many sinful activities, then how he'll be happy? A sinful man cannot become happy, that is not possible. All our sinful activities, the so-called scientists are helping, "Yes, you can do this." And the church is sanctioning. This is going on. The Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill," and they are now teaching, "yes, you can kill the child. You have killed cows and so many things, that is all right. Again you kill your child."

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- March 13, 1975, Tehran:

Indian man (1): A lot of dangers will be there. We'll be putting ourself into trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in trouble. Even last war, when the trouble was too much, they began to go to the church. Even Churchill. And one gentleman—he is my Godbrother in Germany—he told me, after this war many German men and women became atheist. Everyone went to the church and prayed. Especially women prayed for return of their husband, brother, father. And nobody returned. So they thought, "There is no God. So forget about all these things." People became atheist. So this risky civilization is going on. They don't want to know what is God, neither they want to satisfy Him. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just the opposite, that "Here is God. You satisfy Him." That's all. "Never mind what you are, but by your occupational duty you satisfy Him. That is perfection." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: That is very good. That is our philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumārtho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaiṣṇava dharma in a crude form like the Christian. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these churches we shall install Deity—Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva—and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can do Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship, eh? Mohammedans?

Yoga student: Yes, they are. That sort of expression. And yet, amongst the Sufi poets...

Prabhupāda: Deity is also expression, form is also expression, but they do not understand it.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: They accept God, that's all. But God is here explained. They cannot give an explicit idea of God. But here is God speaking personally. They have got "There is God," "God is great." That's nice. But who is that God, how He is great, that they have to learn further. Simply a vague idea, that "God is great..." One should know how He is great and who is that great. That is perfection. So that is explained here. They accept God. That is... They are also our brother because they accept God. They are not atheist. Atheists, they don't accept God. "There is no God"—that is atheist. But here they are theist. They accept God. They want to please God. They go to the church, go to the mosque, offer prayer. Prayer is also bhakti, devotional service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ... (SB 7.5.23). Śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam..., arcanaṁ vandanam. Vandanam. The Christian way or the Muslim way, to offer... The Muslim offer obeisances and offer prayer. So that is also bhakti. The Christian also do that, so that is also bhakti. And they accept God; we accept God. So there is no difference. But the only point is who is that God.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1975, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumartho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says that is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him. That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnalam in crude form, like the Christians (indistinct) if they are sane man. I suggested that there are many churches vacant, if they give us these churches, we shall install Deity, Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva, and along with them we can worship Jesus Christ. Similarly, we can do Mohammed. But they are against this Deity worship. Yes?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Mohammedans?

Guest: Yes, with that sort of expression.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: And yet amongst the Sufi poets there is...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) is also expression, form is also expression.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Devotee (1): In Africa, recently, one of the leaders has taken all the mūrtis and crucifixes from the churches and put his own statue.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): He has banned all religions.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): He put his own statue there, that the people should worship him. He's a disciple of Mao.

Prabhupāda: And because there is no king, therefore he is flourishing.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Had there been any real king, he would have been killed immediately. Because there is no king, therefore in South India, they are insulting the statue of Lord Rāmacandra, because there is no king. Everyone is king. Diplomacy... Democracy. What is this nonsense, democracy? All over the world the royalty is hereditary, never elected. (break) ...and it was hereditary, even Russia. That is the system. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). And evaṁ paramparā-prāptam—who? Rājarṣayoḥ. They are king, but just like saintly persons. That is king, not a loafer class is elevated to the royal post. Rājarṣayoḥ. Although they're holding the post of a king for administration, they're just like ṛṣi. That is king.

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prajāpati: Practically all the theologians are aligned with one denomination or another, and they're like company men to the big churches, and they're afraid of admitting they do not know about God because they're afraid somebody will leave their camp and come to ours. We say we know about God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say frankly that we know God, His father's name, His address, everything. Let anyone come and challenge. He cannot say that "No, this is not God," because he has not approached God. He does not know what is God. How he can challenge us that "This is not God"? Suppose we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as God, so how anyone can challenge? Because he has not approached God. He is simply speculating.

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: But according to academic order, logic is the preliminary study of philosophy. Our, our professor, Dr. Watt (?), he defined like that. In 1917...-(Aside:) Come on.-There was the governor in Bengal, Lord Ronaldsey (?), Marquis of Zetland. He was a Scottish man. And our college was Scottish Churches College-(aside:) Get the light. So... don't lean. You'll feel sleep. Just like sit my Guru Mahārāja. Show the picture. Be... Become my Guru Mahārāja. Yes. That sitting is the yogāsana. I am gone to hell. (laughter) You are young men. You learn from my Guru Mahārāja.

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prajāpati: This is the study of faithful men understanding themselves through the medium of the church.

Prabhupāda: Now you discuss whether this point is very nice.

Acyutānanda: So what is the authority?

Prajāpati: The authority is the Christian tradition.

Acyutānanda: The Bible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When he says church, that means authority, Bible.

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prajāpati: No, it's the tradition of the church through the great founding fathers, the great theologians up until the present day.

Viṣṇujana: Sādhu, śāstra, guru.

Prabhupāda: No... Vāk...

Prajāpati: Yes, unfortunately no guru.

Prabhupāda: Church... Church is following Bible.

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So ultimately Bible becomes authority.

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1975, Mayapur:

Pañcadraviḍa: Kill him again.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their philosophy. And as they pass laws in the Parliament, similarly, these churches approve: "Yes, homosex is all right." Then it is all right. This cheating system is going on. Similar cheating system is the Hindus also. You'll find in Calcutta, in College Street, so many butcher house. And they have kept one goddess Kālī that "We are eating Mother Kali's prasāda." That's it. This is going on.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Satsvarūpa: Is that just up to our preaching?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will depend on your purified preaching activities. If you again become materially victimized, then you cannot do it. If you remain on the spiritual platform, if you try, then it will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. It will increase. As soon as there is any contemplation of sense gratification, then the spirit will be lost. Then instead of Christianity, it will be "Churchianity," officially going to the church, doing nothing, and gradually nobody will go.

Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Kṛṣṇa, he will become mad after Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign. These boys are certified in their own country by the Christian priests that "These boys are our boys, they will never come into church, they are never interested about God, and now they are mad after God. What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Kṛṣṇa. To mad after Him. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Where You are? Where You are? Śrī-govardhana pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamunā? Where you are? Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply wondering where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato pure khedair mahā-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Kṛṣṇa, you can understand Kṛṣṇa. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Kṛṣṇa, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa is black, somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa as something else.

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: The Christians openly admit that the Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our scripture.

Prabhupāda: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes there. Nobody comes.

Paramahaṁsa: As they have seen that their scripture has been changed, they also have a very strong doubt about our scripture. They say "Well, yours in even older than ours," so somewhere along the line they say it must have been changed.

Prabhupāda: You say, but those who are the followers of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this? Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are simply suggesting because you had a bad experience.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.

Jayadharma: That is my foolishness.

Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped.

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: If you give instruction to the rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all in the pravṛtti-mārga. Therefore they are bringing somebody, "Our interpretation is like this." Pravṛtti-mārga. Because if they can find out some support from the śāstra, then they think, "We are secure." This is going on. Pravṛttim ca nivṛttim janā na vidur āsurāḥ. The whole world is full of asuras, descendant of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually they will understand. (pause) Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are also in the pravṛtti-mārga. All these, priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravṛtti-mārga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see.

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: What he has done?

Amogha: He... Sometimes he has electric guitar music for the church prayer ceremony. It's called a rock mass.

Gaṇeśa: Rock mass, to attract the young people.

Prabhupāda: Will the young men came?

Gaṇeśa: Oh, yes. But halfway through, they all go out on the grass and they smoke. (laughter) They simply come to hear the music and that is all...

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: Another thing they do in the churches is they have those bingo games. You were saying in one lecture we shouldn't play bingo. That's very popular. Practically all of the Catholic... Is that Catholic churches?

Gaṇeśa: All Christian. Jesus himself, he kicked the moneylenders out of the temple.

Amogha: I was talking to one Buddhist monk, and I asked him, "What is your actual practice? What is your daily schedule?" And he said, "Well, we get up around sunrise and go out with our begging bowls and fill it up and then come back at about 11:00 to the temple. And then we sit down and eat everything in the begging bowl. And then we take rest." I said, "What about the rest of the day?" And he said, "Well, that's all free, open time."

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are distributing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you explain that it's best to start from the beginning and go gradually. So...

Prabhupāda: No, anywhere you can see.

Amogha: So we can distribute any canto.

Paramahaṁsa: Usually what happens is a person who gets, say, the Second or Third or Fourth Canto, if he reads that, then he will want to start from the beginning, and he'll buy the First Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, even if he does not read the First Canto, wherever he will read, he will get benefit. Sugar candy you taste from anywhere it is sweet.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna asks...

Prabhupāda: No, you can fall down unconsciously. But if you fall consciously, that is cheating. I do not want. I am trying to keep myself steady, but still, if I fall, that is excused. But if you purposely... Just like the Christian atonement. They go to the church and admit, "Yes, I have done these sinful activities, so I pay you something. Excuse it." That is not sincerity. And again, next week, he does the same thing. That is not sincerity.

Paramahaṁsa: What would an example of unconscious falldown be?

Prabhupāda: Unconscious falldown, that... Suppose I am prone to... I was very much fond of smoking, but I have given up. So in a society there is smoking, so I become induced. He offers me cigarette, and unconsciously I smoke. Then I must repent, "Oh, what I have done?" That is excused. But if I secretly smoke and outwardly I show I am a devotee, then what is this? This is cheating.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so...

Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher-enemies. They do not know the art.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: To worship God, we have got nine processes. One is to hear about God and to speak about God—śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Then, memorizing God's activities. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping his feet—just like we offer flower to the feet. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanam. Then Deity worship, just like we are doing in the temple, Deity worship. Then vandanam, offering prayers, just like you do in the church. Vandanam, dāsyam, to engage oneself always in the service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam. Sakhyam—to taking as the best friend, considering God as the best friend.

Jesuit: Consider God as?

Prabhupāda: Best friend.

Jesuit: Best friend.

Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna did. Arjuna worshiped God as friend, the best friend. God is the best friend for everyone.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Jesuit: Hm. Transformed, it changes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So actually there is nothing material. When God consciousness is there, it is spiritual. This... In association with God, everything becomes spiritual. Just like there is a church and there is an ordinary house. People say, " This is church, God's place, and this is house." What is the difference? That is also made of bricks; that is also made of bricks. Why people go to the church? Why not to the house? So the conclusion is, when the atmosphere is surcharged with God consciousness, it is spiritual. Immediately. Otherwise, as soon as you forget God, then it is material. Material and spiritual means where there is no forgetfulness of God, that is spiritual. And where there is forgetfulness of God, that is material.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: ...the church is made of matter, wood and stone, but it is spirit, because here there is nothing other business than God. So the real thing is, matter means forgetfulness of God. Read that, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ.

Madhudviṣa:

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ

khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me

bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

(BG 7.4)

"Translation: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego-altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."

Prabhupāda: That's it. So God being all spirit, His energy is also spirit. His energy cannot be different. But in this material energy we forget God. Therefore it is called material. If we know that this wood is also energy of God, that is spiritual understanding. And if we think that wood has come independently from any other source, that is material. In the Vedānta-sūtra this is discussed in the beginning athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the Absolute Truth.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is superior energy, and the material energy, inferior energy. Just like in your body there are some inferior parts and some superior parts. But they are body, parts of the body. This part is superior part, and the rectum is inferior part. But that does not mean it does not form the constitution parts of your body. Otherwise how you become whole? Whole means comprising everything, superior, inferior. But comparatively, there is superior part, inferior part. So the material energy is also God's energy. And spiritual energy is also God's energy, but the spiritual energy is described here as superior energy, and the material energy is described here as inferior energy. But altogether, they are energies. So those who are expert devotees of God, they can utilize inferior energy for the purpose of superior energy. That is the proper utilization. Just like the same brick and stone is required for constructing an ordinary house, and the same brick and stone can be used for constructing a church.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

That is superior.

Jesuit: Yes, I understand that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The material is not different. The ordinary house is constructed with the same bricks and stone, and church is also made of that. But why it is superior? Because it is specially, only meant for God's purpose. So anything utilized for God's purpose, it becomes spiritual. This is our philosophy.

Jesuit: Very good. You're kind, talking to me.

Prabhupāda: So we are trying to engage everything in God's service, to make it superior energy.

Jesuit: How do you see helping your fellow man?

Prabhupāda: We are helping. We are making them God conscious. Yes. That is best help. Instead of making them drunkard, woman-hunter, meat-eaters, we are making them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the best help.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Jesuit: And it's good that, I think, we are coming more to understand that. And I think you see a lot of young people who really are longing for some form of contemplation and prayer. That is why you get followers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, these boys they are coming from your Christian group, Jewish group, but they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement, they didn't care to come to the church. And now they are mad after God. How is it? The same boys." So indirectly he accepted this process as easier to understand God. And actually it is easier. What do they do? They don't go to the forest, or meditate, or make any very austere, what is called, penances. They simply chant in the morning and dance in ecstasy and then eat sumptuously. That's all. And now they have given up everything. Now, you bribe them, "You eat meat." They will never eat. They will not drink tea even. The method is... The American government they spent lots of money for stopping this addiction to drugs. And these boys, as soon as they come to me, they give up. Ask them what money I have bribed them. You can ask how they have left it.

Morning Walk -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: God is not order-supplier. Otherwise everyone is praying. Just like in the last war, everyone went to church and prayed for saving the life... mostly woman, because all men in Germany especially, everywhere, they went to the war front. So all the women, they went to the church for praying for their husband, for their brother or father. But nobody came back. And later on, they became atheist: "Oh, there is no God." Because God did not supply their order, therefore there is no God. "If God agrees to my proposal and He supplies things as I want, then there is God. Otherwise there is no God." That means God is under my condition. This is going on.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Scottish Churches' College. You know that? In our time Dr. Watt, he was principal. And I was student of philosophy of Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He was my professor. And our English professor was Mr. Cameron,(?) Mr. Scrimgeour, Mr. Warren. And I was student of economics also. One Mr. Keith, he was also... All our professors were Scotsmen, Englishmen.

Dr. Copeland: And after you left the college, were you employed?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I was appointed manager of a very big laboratory, Dr. Bose's laboratory.

Dr. Copeland: Ah, yes.

Prabhupāda: You know?

Dr. Copeland: I've heard of it. From another worker. While you were in the college or afterwards, did you participate in any political movements?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I joined this Gandhi's.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Dr. Copeland: (laughs) You can't just say that they don't exist. They're there. And surely there were other people...

Prabhupāda: No, that is... That was... About hundred years ago Vivekananda came, and he stayed in New York, but these people... When I came, I asked, "What is...? Do you know Vivekananda?" They said, "No, we do not know." I had to find out, search out, where is Vivekananda's center. It was not very prominent. Nobody was going. So for hundred years they worked, this Ramakrishna Mission. They could not establish even half a dozen centers in America. And I established forty centers within six years. And in each center there is devotees not less than twenty-five, up to 225. In Los Angeles we purchased one church. The church was sold because nobody was coming. And since we have taken... If you sometimes go to Los Angeles, you will see it is packed always. The same people, the same church—why it is packed now? And why it was sold without any attendance? What is the difference? I have not brought these men from India; neither I brought that church from India. The church was there, and these people were there.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and...

Prabhupāda: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.

Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be...

Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.

Prabhupāda: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 1: But even if you are a church, if you are a church-goer it makes it very interesting because you're subject to that church law.

Guest 3:. Well, I'm a church-going person.

Guest 1: What happens in the situation where somebody has committed a murder?

Guest 3: Nothing. It's... Look...

Guest 1: It's a matter of church conscience.

Guest 3: It's nothing. It's got nothing to do... I'm not there to judge...

Guest 1: This was the example given.

Guest 3: I'm not there to judge. All I'm there to do is to do a job. Someone else has got the unfortunate task of having to judge people. I don't have to do that, so I don't decide.

Prabhupāda: No, we can judge from the standard laws. India still, if one has very good garden and flowers, if somebody goes, "Sir, I want to take some flowers from your garden for worshiping God," "Yes, you can take." They will be very glad.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 1: And they had a lot of difficulty. This is one of the things that I imagine, you know, the story that the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church owned this property. And it was almost by devious means that it was acquired.

Prabhupāda: They did not want to give us?

Guest 1: He didn't want to sell direct, like that. Because that beautiful building across there, I think you saw photos...

Amogha: The convent. Śrīla Prabhupāda went through the convent.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Guest 1: They, we found out or the suggestion was... Because there were little power groups in that church that possibly the senior people don't know about, but they objected for some reason, which is very hard to understand.

Prabhupāda: In London we wanted to purchase one church that was not working. In London. But when we approached that priest, the in-charge, not directly to me but one of my disciples, he informed him that "I shall better set fire in this church. Still, I shall not give to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Bali-mardana: Previously the only big building was the church.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big church or king's royal palace, like that. Ordinary men, they used to live in cottage. That is especially in India. They did not... What is the use? If you are not going to live there... It is a common sense. But they have no idea. They are thinking, "We shall live forever in this house." And Kṛṣṇa says that "I will come as death and take away all your possession." That they cannot understand. They will think that "No, my possession is all. I will die. I will go to hell. Still, it is my possession." This is. He will go to hell; still, his possession. (laughs) This is intelligence.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Guest (1): Sure. That's right. I understand that, and, you know, I'm very broad-minded. I always have said... You know, one time in our Methodist church we had a professor that was giving all religions of the world. And this is rather putting it simply and fast, but it was interesting because of all the different religions, even though they all didn't believe in the divine being, Christ being the son of God, in some cases-there's Buddha and so forth—but they all were preaching about going to the same place, so to speak. And it's peculiar. They all had more or less the Ten Commandments. In other words they all believed in doing the same thing. So that was interesting...

Prabhupāda: But I don't think Christians believe.

Guest (1): So I know you people are good, just as good as I am. Bless you all, and I wish I and all of us were better.

Prabhupāda: Do you think Christians believe in the Ten Commandments?

Guest (1): We think we do, I guess, but we don't practice it, you know.

Prabhupāda: Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill."

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of their church and preaching?

Devotee: Well, we want to tell the others so they can also be saved.

Prabhupāda: No, the Christian churches, all the priests, they eat meat. They're supporting everything, homosex, everything, man to man marriage.

Bali-mardana: Now they are making women the priests.

Prabhupāda: Women priest. Women priest, there was none before?

Bali-mardana: No.

Gurukṛpa: Still not very much.

Bali-mardana: The Protestants.

Gurukṛpa: That is a nice pandal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1975, Honolulu:

Upendra: ...Protestant work ethic. Protestant work ethics. The western culture has developed because of that work ethic based on, "You work hard and go to church." "Work hard and believe in God," this is the advancement, why western culture is..., is one theory why it's...

Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe in God? What is the benefit? Work hard... Now, of course, I shall work hard; I will get money. That's all right. Why shall I believe in God?

Śrutakīrti: Because if you work hard and believe in God then He'll save you at death. By working hard, then you'll be saved.

Prabhupāda: That's what the Communists say. They do not believe in God.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What it was before?

Bahulāśva: It was a Mormon church.

Prabhupāda: Ohh.

Bahulāśva: Built very solid.

Jayatīrtha: Made of bricks.

Prabhupāda: So all the churches we are purchasing. (laughter)

Bahulāśva: They are all going out of business.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...worm and the sun. When the sun is arisen, the glowworms, automatically finished. (break) ...motto, "Kṛṣṇa is sun." You know it? Kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama. So when Kṛṣṇa sun is there, all these glowworms' lightening will be finished. (break) ...this sun always shining. Then these glowworms will be finished. (break) ...that Sikh, Bhajan? What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogi Bhajan.

Prabhupāda: Ah ha. He came to invite me.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: In Kenya we went into one government officer asking for some land for a farm. He also said, "We want to give you land right in the middle of the village, so you can build your church there."

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Brahmānanda: He offered that. He said, "All the other religions, they have their... We have certain plots for them, and there is a church for Catholic, a church for Protestant, a church for Bahai."

Prabhupāda: No, no, take anywhere they give land. Yes. That will be recognition. We don't mind for the land, but the government has given land means recognized. That is wanted.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. (break) ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.

Brahmānanda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...picture.

Brahmānanda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."

Jayatīrtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. (break)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?

Prabhupāda: No, I can go there.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...

Prabhupāda: Occupying the churches?

Jayatīrtha: The Catholic churches.

Brahmānanda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.

Prabhupāda: That is called Gandhi's policy.

Brahmānanda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.

Prabhupāda: It is called satyagraha.

Jayatīrtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.

Prabhupāda: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...

Prabhupāda: Prostitute's house.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.

Prabhupāda: And we say, "No prostitution." (break) ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Pore: Is it possible to find Kṛṣṇa in the Christian tradition or in Islam?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh yes. Why not? Christians are seeking after God. You are going to the church. "O God." You accept God has created everything. Here also He says, "Everything is My energy." Where is the difference?

Dr. Pore: The Christians describe Kṛṣṇa in a different way. Are they making mistakes?

Prabhupāda: That is... Just like the heat, the question of energy, the heat 93,000,000's miles away from the sun, heat may be different, and in the sun-globe the heat may be different. But the heat is there; and light is there. The same thing: heat and light is the same, but the degree of presentation of heat and light may be different.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Animal condition. Not only horrible, it is animal condition. They do not want to know God. Just like these animals, they are not interested. So they have no church, the animals, or temple. But in the human society, either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, there is some arrangement for understanding God. Now they are also neglecting that, everyone, all over the world. Now they are clearly... The Communists, they hate to say anything about God. So ultimately they are coming to such position, the Communists, that "No word about God." So this is the position. Now apart from them, just like theologists and theosophists. They are, at least, after understanding what is God, but they cannot ascertain definitely. So why do they not take? We are offering, "Here is God." Where is the objection? Why they should object? If you do not know something and if I give you the information, why you should not take?

Dr. Judah: That's a good question.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Judah: Of course, in Christianity, which many of the Christians, I feel, are not following as closely as they should and have in the past, there is the idea, for example, in the Roman Catholic church, for example, at the time of the Mass, of experiencing the presence of God and there have been Christian mystics who have felt that they have experienced God. For example, St. Theresa, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, and various ones.

Prabhupāda: So they must give description of God. If you have seen this rose flower, then you can give a description. If you cannot give a description, then how you have seen rose flower?

Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, they have tried to give descriptions, but, of course, I think all descriptions that have been given of God are, as descriptions are inadequate. Because in my own feeling I believe that the full knowledge of God comes through the actual experience of God, experiencing God in our lives.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience you can get. Just like God is describing Himself. Now, why don't you take that? Your description may be defective because you are imperfect. But if God Himself is giving His, I mean to say, identification, why don't you take it? Not only gives description, He acts according to the description. When Kṛṣṇa was present, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior element." He proved it when He was present. There was no more superior power than Him when Kṛṣṇa was present. In His opulence, in His richness, in His strength, in His education—everything, all topmost, Kṛṣṇa. All topmost. The proof is that because you get the topmost knowledge, therefore Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, accepted, topmost knowledge. All scholars, all philosophers, all religionists, they read it.

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam (SB 1.1.3). The essence of all Vedic knowledge. (break)

Bhāvānanda: ...a few days previous Sudāmā Mahārāja and I were in Salt Lake City. We went to the Mormon Church visitor's center. Beautiful presentation. Dioramas, so many dioramas, and a big ramp, circular ramp like we want to have in Māyāpur. You walk up into a big diorama of the universe with... Lord Jesus is there. Beautiful presentation. A bogus philosophy, but nice presentation.

Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?

Bhāvānanda: That when you marry, then you are married eternally. And after you die, you go to heaven and you live with your family, your wife and your children, for ever and ever. That's their philosophy.

Morning Walk -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: (in car) ...saṁsāre māyāra janeiya, moha janeiya, jīva ke karaye gadha. This māyāra vaibhava, this material advancement is advancement of māyā. Big, big building, nice road, nice motor car, nice... Surely it is material advancement, admitted. But this advancement is advancement of the illusory energy. So what is the wrong there? Suppose... The wrong is there that this material world is temporary. We have come here temporarily, say twenty-five years, fifty years or at most, hundred years. So we are already illusioned and we become more illusioned. Then we forget our real business. Mūḍha, we remain mūḍha. Supposing if there is next birth, so who is very much anxious to know what is our next birth? Nobody is. Blindly going on. māyāra vaibhava. (break) ...very nice church, but understand what for this church is, what is God, what is God consciousness. Just cultivate this knowledge. "No, big church finished." Live nice building, nice happy life, but don't forget Kṛṣṇa. Then what is the use of this life? And if you forget Kṛṣṇa, then the result will be crime, and you will be facing with problems, "Why and now what to do?" So many problems will be there. So the problems cannot be solved simply by possessing big, big buildings.

Morning Walk -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: ...saṁsāre, moha janmeiva, jīva ke karaye gadha. There are so many churches.

Jayatīrtha: This is a special area, Jagadīśa? There are so many churches. All over America there are very expensive churches. In India you do not see so many temples. I was surprised when I went there first. Because you do not see very many big, gorgeous, temples. But here everywhere there are big gorgeous churches.

Prabhupāda: Oh, no, India, in South India...

Brahmānanda: South India is full.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, South India. North India not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have not seen Jagannātha temple?

Jayatīrtha: No.

Prabhupāda: Beginning from Madras, very big, big temples.

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Lt. Mozee: Some of my questions might sound disrespectful. If they do it is only because I do not understand completely your religious beliefs, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not my religious belief. I am just giving you general description of religious life and animal life. The animal cannot be taken to the churches and teach something about God. It is not possible. But a human being can be. So if the human being is refused this facility, then you keep them as cats and dogs. And you cannot expect any peaceful condition of life in the society of cats and dogs. So therefore it is the duty of the authority, of the government, of the elderly person, father, guardian, to teach the subordinate how to become God conscious. Otherwise, there will be trouble because there is no difference between dogs and man in every respect. The dog eats, we eat. The dog sleeps, we sleep. The dog have sex, we have sex. The dog also tries to defend itself, we also try to defend ourself. These are common factors. The only difference is the dog cannot be instructed about his relation with God, but man can be instructed.

Morning Walk -- July 8, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...but to engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service. Our knowledge in spiritual life and your help, material opulence, combined together, there will be great change in the whole world. Cooperate with us. There is no loss on your part, but there is great benefit to the whole world. Try to convince them. Although they are not very big authority, but still through them, you can approach bigger authorities. (break) ...big churches, no use, no utility. (break) ...speak, andha-kañja-nyāya. Andha-kañja-nyāya, you know that, the lame man and the blind man?

Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So America is blind, and we are lame. So let us get on the shoulder of the American blind and give him direction, and both will be benefited. The whole world will be benefited. The America, blind, he cannot see where he is going. (chuckles) And for want of money we cannot make progress. So let the Americans take on the shoulder this lame man, and I will give direction, "Go this way. Go this way." Everything will be all right. Andha-kañja-nyāya. (break) ...nice building, churches, there is no use. Take our direction. Everything will be all right. (break) ...take our direction, what is the loss on their part? Hmm? What is the possible loss? Why they will deny to take our direction? (break) (out of car:) Tell them about this andha-kañja-nyāya.

Morning Walk -- July 8, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. Why don't you understand? Preaching cannot be checked by anything—if you want to preach. In any circumstances you can preach. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Preaching can be executed by four things: by your life, by your money, by your intelligence, and by your words. You have got so many assets. So you can utilize it for preaching. Dedicate your life. If you think that you are family man, you cannot dedicate twenty-four hours, then earn money and give it to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as other family men, they are earning money. Eh? Is it not? You can earn. In America there is good facility for earning money. They want that you work and take money. So earn money as gṛhastha and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair. If you cannot earn money, then use your intelligence. There are so many intellectual work: publication, going to this officer, that officer. You, intellectually you try. And vācā, by words. If you cannot do anything, go anyone, anywhere and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just offer your obeisances." Finished. So where is the scarcity? You can serve Kṛṣṇa in any capacity-provided you want to serve. And if you want to engage Kṛṣṇa for your service, that is blunder. Then it is blunder. You cannot engage Kṛṣṇa to your service. The everyone is trying to engage Kṛṣṇa for his service. They are going to the church, "O Kṛṣṇa, give us our daily bread," that "You serve me. You give us our daily bread and serve me." And our proposition is, Yaśodāmayī, "Kṛṣṇa, You are playing all day. Come on! Take food first of all." This is service. They are going to Kṛṣṇa for asking daily bread. And here Yaśodāmayī is commanding, "Come here! If You don't eat, You will get lean and thin. Come on." This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Morning Walk -- July 8, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is concerned, "How Kṛṣṇa will keep good health?" And we are concerned, "Kṛṣṇa will go to hell. Please supply me food so that I might keep my health good." That is the difference between materialistic and spiritualist. The foolish man does not understand that Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to the elephant, to the ant, and why I shall go to the church for asking my food? It is already there. And our policy is, "Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." We create problem. Otherwise, no problem. Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Just see so many fruits for the birds. They are so sumptuously supplied, they are thrown. Pūrṇam idam (Īśo Invocation). Everything is sufficient. But these rascal blind, they do not know. They are trying to adjust. What adjustment? It is already sufficient. You are misusing that. Sufficient land, sufficient intelligence. Everything is sufficient. They are misusing. In Africa, in Australia, sufficient land, and they are raising cattle to kill them. This is their intelligence. And growing coffee and tea.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: God is complete and His arrangement is also very complete. Everyone has his necessities of life completely. In the Vedas it is said that we are all living entities. God is also the chief living entity. The difference is that that one God, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, He supplies the necessities of all other living entities. In the Christian world also, they believe God gives bread to everyone, and they go to the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." But higher philosophy is that we should not or we need not ask God for our bread. That is already there. We should approach God, how to love Him. That is our business. Otherwise, God is supplying food to the elephant who can eat forty kilogram at a time, or forty kg. And the ant eats only one grain of sugar. So God is supplying all of them. So there is no question of asking God to give us our food. It is already there. We should not waste our time to ask God for our sense gratification. That arrangement is already there. We shall try to know God and try to love Him.

Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: But there are so many churches...

City Counselor: Yes, there are many churches, yes. And I think...

Prabhupāda: So what is the fault if there is a temple?

City Counselor: Well, I think the... Originally, again I say, some of the no..., not I, but some had some objections to any church, any temple...

Prabhupāda: But already there are churches. I have seen so many churches surrounding our temple.

City Counselor: But I think that that is no longer a problem with the zoning. I think they accept the temple because they have seen that the...

Prabhupāda: The churches are not problem? Only the temple is problem?

City Counselor: No, I don't think that's the situation.

Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: But you are the head. You should judge. If the churches are not objectionable, why the temple should be objectionable?

City Counselor: May I explain? I am one of eighteen who make the decision. And...

Prabhupāda: No, no, decision, you may speak on our behalf, but if there are so many churches what is the fault of one temple?

City Counselor: Again I have spoken in favor of the temple. I think that there were a number that...

Prabhupāda: So you plead like that, that there are so many churches, why our temple is the only objectionable? What is this?

City Counselor: Well, I have no objection. I can't say for the others.

Prabhupāda: You have not. Why they have objection? If they can allow so many churches, so what is the temple has done? We are praying God. We have got Deity worship. What is the wrong there?

City Counselor: Nothing, nothing is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is your answer?

Jagadīśa: They say that we are weird. (laughter)

Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: If they become unreasonable, whimsical, then who can defend? There is no such law that one should have a particular dress in their church or temple. There is no such law. But they are insisting about the dress. What is this?

City Counselor: Again, I will pledge that whenever I can expose such prejudices on the parts of my fellow aldermen, I will do it.

Prabhupāda: No, that is very kind of you, but if they are persistent on majority vote, then you are nowhere. So the majority, if they want whimsically to do something, you cannot check.

City Counselor: No, but I can talk.

Prabhupāda: You can talk. We are also talking, but they don't care. This is the difficulty.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Religion means primarily to know God and love Him. That is religion. And nobody knows God, and what to speak of loving Him? Nobody is trained up how to know God and how to love Him. They are satisfied by going to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." That also not everyone goes. So the Communist says that "You don't go to the church. Bread we shall supply." So poor innocent persons, they get bread elsewhere, so they do not go to church. But nobody is serious to understand what is God and how to love Him. Nobody is serious. Therefore in Bhāgavatam, it is said, it is cheating religion. I profess some religion, but I do not know what is God and how to love Him. That's all. So that type of religion is cheating religion. Religion means to know God and love Him. But generally, a man does not know what is God and what to speak of loving Him? So therefore that is cheating religion. That is not religion. But so far Christian religion is concerned, there is ample chance of understanding God. But they do not care for it. Take for example, the commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But in the Christian world, best slaughterhouses are maintained. So how they can become God conscious? They disobey the commandments, do not care for Lord Jesus Christ's order. So this is not only in Christian religion. Every religion, it is going on. It is simply rubber stamp. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." And none of them do know what is God and how to love Him.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Brahmānanda: In the First Canto?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. The first thing is that people become religious. Just like in your Christian religion they go to the church to get some material profit. "Oh God, give us our daily bread." This is material profit. Similarly, Hindus or Muslims, they become religious, dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), the material activities. Those who are actually advanced... Those who are not even human beings, their philosophy is different. Those who are human beings, their dharma, religion. Then artha, economic development, and then kāma, sense gratification, and then mokṣa, liberation. These four things are taken as general activities. So Bhāgavata says your dharma... Religious principle means the ultimate goal is how to become liberated, not artha. Artha means economic development. So then question may be if you do not, if we are not economically developed then how we shall live? The Bhāgavata says that you can make economic development as far as it maintains your body and soul together. Not that making whole life economic development and real purpose of life forget. This is foolishness.

Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive.

Brahmānanda: You want one like that for Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: They have an organ here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower.

Prabhupāda: Which tower?

Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies.

Devotee: As they fall off. (break)

Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. (break) This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Mm. (break) ...are exactly Indian. (break) They have good facilities on this lake.

Citsukhānanda: They have one church here, Prabhupāda. It is Mormon church. It is not too far from here. It is very gigantic, and it's on a hill. And every Sunday they get maybe five to six thousand guests because they have spent great money on a big complex. They have a library, museum and church. This is... We could also do this sometime, make one nice Indian temple. Thousands of visitors would come, even just tourists, from all over the world. They could probably come the same way. Ours would be much better, though.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good idea. (break) ...also very nice.

Bahulāśva: The lake?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Due to that lake.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: You know him? You must be knowing. I think he gives definition of economic impetus-family affection. I was also a student of economics in my student life, Scottish Churches' College. So we had to read this Marshall economics, I think. That definition, that what is the economic impetus, why people want to earn money? So the reason, he gives-due to some family affection. Am I right?

Mr. Surface: I didn't understand the last part.

Prabhupāda: Family affection.

Brahmānanda: Family affection is the impetus for economic...

Prabhupāda: Development.

Morning Walk -- July 28, 1975, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are Christians.

Jayatīrtha: I think before the bullfighter goes to the ring, he first goes to the church and prays for blessings that he will be able to do very nicely.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Brahmānanda: And everyone gets drunk.

Prabhupāda: Very good preaching.

Yadubara: They also have those cock fights, you know, those chicken fights. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...begin war with their own children. This is also war. The child wants to come out, and they are fighting, advanced. (end)

Morning Walk -- August 4, 1975, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Admiral Perry.

Brahmānanda: Admiral Perry. He defeated the British in the War of 1812.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...church tower?

Brahmānanda: None of our men have ever been here, I don't think.

Prabhupāda: We shall go that way? (break) ...piece of grass coming out. Another. (break) So where is Canada?

Mādhavānanda: Right there.

Prabhupāda: That side. (end)

Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto:

Indian man (1): The location of that church is very nice because there are so many thousands of cars pass every morning and in the evening.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Indian man (1): Avenue Road. It is very busy street. There are so many cars coming in the morning, I think, twenty thousand a day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they will see the signboard. (break)

Indian man (2): ...that India, I traveled after several years. I last went in 1966. It was not so demonic. But this time I found the younger generation of India is very, very demonic and they don't believe God at all.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They do not know what is respons...

Mādhavānanda: They would say that so many may have taken God realization as responsibility, following some Christ... church or something like that, but they are also frustrated.

Prabhupāda: We are not frustrated. Eh? We are not frustrated. Are we frustrated? Then? How the rascal says, "frustrated"? If you take false thing, then you will be frustrated. If you take real path of God realization, there is no question of frustration. It is ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, increasing pleasure, no frustration.

Mādhavānanda: Then they say that no one has real information of God.

Prabhupāda: You have no, rascal, because you are rascal. I have got. You just wash my feet, and I will inform you.

Morning Walk -- September 6, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: They are trying to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The churches accept. It is already law.

Nitāi: This women's liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They're lesbians.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga. (break)

Brahmānanda: ...become ruined. The world is on the verge of ruination, but it doesn't become ruined; so therefore they think, "Oh, it doesn't matter. We can go on."

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is the meaning of ruination. (break) ...so many problems. Still it is not on the verge of ruination?

Brahmānanda: It's on the verge.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Morning Walk -- September 15, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Let them say what is there. Then you can talk with them.

Brahmānanda: They say, "I love God. I go to church every... Once a week I go, Sunday morning. I make my prayer. So what more? I have my family. I have my job."

Vāsughoṣa: But I was reading in this National Geographic Magazine, there is one sect of people in New York City, very orthodox following. They don't even go to cinema. When they have free time they are studying the śāstras, their śāstras. They are very strict. They don't even shave their faces because it says, "Do not round the corner of your face." So they have these big beards like this, and their whole life is dedicated like this to reading and... They also sing and dance.

Prabhupāda: That is something good.

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.

Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We don't discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible?

Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible."

Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear." Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good."

Morning Walk -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: ...Christian missionaries. They are trying to convert others, but they are closing their churches. They are selling their churches to us.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Finding new suckers. In South Africa they put up big paṇḍāls, and because the Indian people, they have no entertainment in the evening, so they go there and they are entertained, and they learn how to sing the hymns that they have. Then you find that the children are singing the hymns because that's the songs that they're learning. If we can provide entertainment like that in the form of saṅkīrtana, then they'll also sing Hare Kṛṣṇa and become devotees of Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...own Christian priests, they asked me that "Why Christianity is dwindling? What we have done?" So I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughter)

Morning Walk -- October 6, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: English, economics, philosophy or..., mostly Scottish... I was educated in Scottish Churches College. The philosophy professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he was very friendly to me, very kind, just like father. (break) ...he became vice chancellor. He was a very learned man, and very nice man, W. S. Urquhart.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they teach in English or Bengali?

Prabhupāda: No, no. English. Medium English.

Harikeśa: He was the one who said that the woman's brain is thirty-six ounces?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (chuckles) Yes. No, not only he, another professor, Dr. Stephen (indistinct), he also said. That's a fact. Artificially they are trying. It has no meaning. But by agitation you can do anything. That is another thing. But that is not the fact.

Morning Walk -- October 12, 1975, Durban:

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this country we have to do army training, and on a Sunday we have to attend a church service. We have to attend it. Is it all right to say that we won't attend it because we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or must we go anyway? It's sort of a Christian denomination service on a Sunday.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Those who are doing nothing, for them to attend the church at least for one hour, that is better than... Something is better than nothing, you see. That is good. People have completely forgotten God. They are doomed. So better to remember at least for some time. That is good.

Indian man (3): We would like you to stay more longer in this country.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Indian man (3): We would like to request you to stay more longer in this country.

Prabhupāda: So if you start a good center I will stay and see that things are going on. (aside:) Just take this stick.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Reporter: Your Grace, a great many of South Africa's church leaders from some of the big churches are fearful that South Africa is going to find itself in a situation, or find... What message would you give this country in terms of avoiding any...

Prabhupāda: No, I am going to every country because everywhere the same mistake is going on, bodily concept of life. So I am trying to bring them to the real life and then make their plan. They will be happy. It is not for South Africa. For any Africa, or any country, South America or South India or anywhere. The problem is the same. Everywhere the same conception: "I am South African." "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am this." "I am that." So all these things are on the bodily concept of life. Nobody says, "No, I am not this body. I am different from body." Nobody says. We are simply preaching that "You are not this body. You are different from this..." That is our unique situation. Perhaps throughout the whole world we are trying to preach that "You are not this body. You are different from body." And we have not manufactured this idea.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, bhaktas are rare. (break) ...churches here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is a school, convent school. There is one church here, another church across the street, a third over there and a fourth down the street from where we live. This church has a big food program, but they sell it. They don't distribute freely. They have about twelve vans. Congregational food... All these garages. They have vans, a big truck.

Prabhupāda: But they eat meat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, they distribute meat too.

Prabhupāda: Their program is for the poor? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally. I think it's mostly money-making. (end)

Morning Walk -- November 11, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Why God? Why not scientist ? (laughter) Pray to scientist. Why the order was for God, not for the scientist? Churchill also, when the war condition was very, very severe—they were going to be finished—then he asked everyone to go to church and pray. That "V"? "V"? Victory: "For victory, go and pray."

Harikeśa: Well, they were thinking God was on their side.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are thinking of God but in a different way, that "God is my order supplier. God is not to be worshiped, but He has to supply as I order." That's all. (break)

Brahmānanda: ...this book written by one priest during the war. The name of the book was Somebody Up There Likes Me, referring to God.

Prabhupāda: Still, he did not dare to utter the name of God.

Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi:

Harikeśa: If you spend all your days just chanting, how can you eat? Religion means you go to the church and you just pray.

Prabhupāda: And who says that religionists should not eat? Do we say...? We have ample prasādam to eat. It is already there. You are researching after food, starving dog. We don't research. There is food ready.

Harikeśa: But we're just exploiting.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa bada day maya, karibāre jihv jaya, sva-prasāda anna dilo bhāi. Kṛṣṇa is ready. Take prasādam as much as you like.

Harikeśa: The Communists will say we're just exploiting.

Prabhupāda: The Communists may say, but we don't say. They are hungry people, they may say. We are not hungry. Our food is supplied by Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He did not remember God, he remembered his son. But God is so kind, because he uttered God's name, He took it seriously.

Dr. Patel: That Mr. Shah had gone to the States and came back from there, some three months back, and he praised the Americans, that no man on Sunday is in the street. All of them are in the churches, and you hear on the radio only those hymns. Is it a fact?

Prabhupāda: He is American. (indicates Harikeśa)

Harikeśa: Yes, but nobody listens to the radio.

Dr. Patel: He says that at least government does it. Here government is giving all the cinema. And there the churches are overflowing.

Prabhupāda: In London I have seen almost all the churches are vacant.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Sir, everywhere it is the church which has actually distorted the message.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Patel: It is the church which has distorted the message. You see the Christ's message is distorted by the church; our Kṛṣṇa's message is distorted by our temples, sort of a thing.

Prabhupāda: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. Why do you blame the temples?

Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the...

Prabhupāda: Everyone. That is going on.

Dr. Patel: ...those popes. However, Christ taught bhāgavata-dharma, absolute bhāgavata-dharma. It is this creation of the church, really to my mind, that the Christ is forgotten by the Western countries.

Prabhupāda: And who is remembering your Kṛṣṇa in this country?

Dr. Patel: There are a few people. I, we are not that...

Prabhupāda: In Bombay, there are so many roads, "Vivekananda road." But there is no Kṛṣṇa Road.