Ādi-keśava: Right. Another thing is that this group, they are very organized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got money.
Ādi-keśava: They have big money. I can show you in this book. We made one chart of their organization.
Hari-śauri: Page fifteen, seventeen.
Ādi-keśava: It shows that they have a big organization. See, they have all these committees. And there's a lot of money involved. There are a lot of people with big money. Starting at the top, they've made a national organization. I know all these men. I've spoken to all these people. They're big demons, but they have a lot of money, so they're fighting us in all the different courts. But so far they have not taken it beyond the lower courts. When we take it to the higher courts we always win. For instance, just before I left, we took two cases to the Federal Court. Immediately we won. In one day they gave us the case. My case is in a very low court. If it goes to a high-court we will win. So we are wanting to do this, but that means again that if we were to do it, only certain lawyers can enter into the Federal Court. Not just any lawyer can argue there, because you have to have some...
Prabhupāda: So you have to pay. What can be done?
Ādi-keśava: So if you're willing to do that, I will do it.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Ādi-keśava: I'm hoping that if we can organize some legal office for the society, then we will be able to do this more effectively.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Ādi-keśava: This is that book we made for the conference, the ACLU conference in New York.
Prabhupāda: Who he is?
Ādi-keśava: He is one of the guṇḍās.
Hari-śauri: In England, this one.
Ādi-keśava: No, he's in...
Hari-śauri: No, in Ipswich.
Ādi-keśava: Ipswich, Massachusetts.
Hari-śauri: Oh, sorry. I thought...
Ādi-keśava: He is in... This is one of the men who was used to hold a devotee during a deprogramming, a big... I know this man personally. You see, already we have sometimes come to blows with them. We had one incident where a devotee was being held captive, and I went with some devotees in the middle of the night, and we had some fighting. The police stopped us. They took me away and beat me and threw me in the bushes, and then they kept the boy there, the devotee. He got away later. But men like this we have fought with several times. When it comes to these questions, I wanted to know, when there is sometimes some violence...
Prabhupāda: What can be done? Violence. Beat him.
Ādi-keśava: This book gives documentation of so many cases where they have used violence against our devotees. These are also...
Hari-śauri: Hired men. Guṇḍās.
Ādi-keśava: They're hired men. This is the case of one of their men who was later held for murder of another man. He was used in a deprogramming, and then later on, some months later, he murdered some man and went to jail for it. So they're very serious. It's not just philosophical arguments. There's a list here in this book we've made of the devotees in our movement who've been taken. This list is very recent, by temple. You can see in practically every temple they have taken some devotees, some who are..., most of them are back in our movement, but some who are not. But now their tactic is this legal thing. Now they get this legal conservatorship, and then even we go and save the devotee, we take them back, the police can come and arrest us. So in these cases we are finding that the only thing to do is sometimes to go and physically drag them away and hide them until the term of this thing is up. Another thing is we are giving, as we said yesterday, some asylum in other countries, like with Canada. And one thing is that the Indian government told me that they would give me asylum. The Ambassador told me that if I were to be held, the Indian government would give me asylum.
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
