Prabhupāda: So anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's spoiling his time, wasting his life and subjecting himself in so many laws of nature. So these things are very nicely explained in this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. This is the preliminary study of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and if one studies this book nicely then he goes to other books. I've got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the project is very great. It will have to be finished in sixty volumes like this. So about ten, twelve volumes are already finished. So I'm going on working on this. So it is a great subject matter for study. So people should take interest in it. It is not anything trifle thing. People should come to us to understand. We have got literature. We have got philosophy. Everything we have got. It is not a blind, imposing thing, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So everyone who actually wants to give some service to the society, to the humanity, they must study this philosophy and get prepared to meet anyone, scientists, philosopher, poet, talk with them, and he can give answer to all their questions. But our method is very simple.
Blind (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is not religious belief. It is not religious belief. It is fact.
Reporter: Well, I mean not...
Prabhupāda: Knowledge received from Vedic sources. You are talking on the source of knowledge from the modern scientific books, similarly, we are talking also on the source of knowledge received from Vedas. It is not a religious belief or faith, blind faith. We are not inventing anything. We are talking on the basis of authoritative knowledge contained in the Vedas.
Reporter: Does this basis of knowledge include any information about beings and how they would react to people from another planet? Is there anything containing, you know, how they would react? How the moon people react to the earth people coming there?
Prabhupāda: Of course, such description is not in the Vedas, but in some sources we can understand that one king wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom, but he was opposed. He was opposed by the demigods. So much information we have got. So those who are not fit to live there or enter there, maybe they will be opposed by the inhabitants there. And that is also natural to think. If somebody all of a sudden comes to your country, oh, there is immediately immigration department. They will see the bona fides, how you can enter? So why don't you take that also? If moon planet is inhabited by more intelligent class of living entities how do we expect that without opposition we will be allowed to enter?
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
"The whole material existence is simply a partial manifestation of My energy." Ekāṁśena. Viṣṭabhyāham. Aham. "I have entered into this whole material creation and that is My partial manifestation of energy." Just like what is your, this body? The body is the, a manifestation of your energy. The seed, living entity, is put into the mother's womb and he expands. This body is expanding. But because you are limited, so much. That's all. Three feet or six feet. That's all. No more. You cannot expand more than that. This is crude example. But He's unlimited. He's expanding. Bṛhatvad bṛṁhaṇatvad iti brahma. Brahman means nothing is greater than Him and nothing can expand like Him. Bṛhatvad bṛṁhaṇatvad iti brahma. So everything is there scientific. Simply we have to administer. We have got authoritative scripture, description, answers, everything is there. It is not blind following. It is not religious fanaticism. It is actually solid ground. Simply one has to understand nicely. That's all. And there is no difficulty. So simple. Now, this... Our recommendation is simply, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So far the Sanskrit word is, that is not a problem. Everyone is chanting. So what is the difficulty? Bring any religious principle. You cannot find so easy. We don't recommend the ritualistic. That is... That is not very important thing. We are giving, say, simply chant. Ritualistic performance a little more helping. That's all. It is helping. It is not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that all the strength and all the beauty, all the wisdom, everything is there in the name. Simply by chanting we get all, everything. But just to help it. It does not... If somebody does not want our ritualistic, that is not an important thing. We don't say. We simply recommend that "You please chant." That's all. I requested you to chant. Not that I requested that you adopt our means. So that we are requesting. Let them chant. Make an experiment. It is not very difficult thing.
Allen Ginsberg: Sūradāsa, the poet.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is known as Sūradāsa.
Allen Ginsberg: Teacher of Tulasī Dāsa, or student of Tulasī Dāsa.
Prabhupāda: He may be different, but Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, he was also blind. He made himself blind. You know the story of Bilvamaṅgala?
Allen Ginsberg: No.
Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly, just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41), in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintāmaṇi." So anyway, he performed... Did not perform. His mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side.
Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly, just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41), in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintāmaṇi." So anyway, he performed... Did not perform. His mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side. And it was heavy raining. And then, when he reached that Cintāmaṇi's home, he saw the door is locked already. Blocked. So he jumped over the wall, taking the tail of a serpent, and when he reached inside, he knocked the door, and Cintāmaṇi was astonished. "How did you come? So heavy rain. You had to cross the river." He said everything, that "Oh, I cannot stay without you." So she was much inquisitive: "How did you come? How did you jump over this wall?" And so he showed everything, that there was a big snake, and so he thought it as rope and jumped it. And then, when he went to the riverside, he saw that was a dead body. So at that time Cintāmaṇi thought, "Oh, this man is so much addicted to me." So she told, "Oh, this much attraction if you would have with Kṛṣṇa, oh, how nice your life would have been." So immediately he came to his senses because he was lifted to that position in his previous life. So immediately he left and was going alone to Vṛndāvana. And on the way he saw another beautiful woman. So his business was to be attracted by woman. So he again became attracted. So he was following. So this woman, after entering, she told her husband, "Just see, this man is following from a distant place." So he asked him, "Oh, come on." He saw he is nice gentleman. He was a rich man, brāhmaṇa. "What is this?" He said plainly, "Oh, I have been attracted by your wife, by the beauty of your wife." "All right, come on. What is that?" You enjoy my wife. You are brāhmaṇa. You are..." So he was received well. And at night, when he was given place, then he asked that woman, "Mother, will you give me your hair pin?" He took the hair pin and pushed in the eyes: "Oh, these eyes are my enemy." Since then he became blind. And in that blindness he was worshiping Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa was coming to him. And he would not touch. He'll sing, dance, and He'll supply milk and go away. So this Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura wrote one book, Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta. It is very valuable book. That is very highly estimated, Lord Caitanya.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatinandana: They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. Rākṣasa, asura, miscreants, rogues, fools, rascals—that is their business. Envious. Because they are... If I say that "You have no eyes," that means indirectly I say that "You are blind." If I say that "You have no leg," indirectly I say, "You are lame." In this way, when I deny your senses, that means I am calling God by ill names that "You are blind. You are lame. You are headless. You are rascal," like that. And that is their prayer. Calling God by ill names, that is their prayer. What do you think, Girirāja?
Girirāja: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say, "O my Lord, You have no leg, You have no hand, You have no eyes," that means, "You are blind, You are lame, You are headless," (laughter) "You have no sense"—"You are nonsense." So this is prayer. This is their prayer. So we have to fight vigorously with these rascal impersonalists and voidists. When I was talking, somebody left the meeting in the morning. Yes. That means he could not tolerate (laughs) all these designations-rascal, miscreants, lowest of the mankind. Yes.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (2): So we want understanding more than mere tape recorder.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you may be tape... But that is my position because I have been authorized in that way, that "Anyone who preaches this confidential subject matter, he is My dear." So I have nothing to learn, what is sama-darśi. I have my position...
Guest (4): No, blind following and open-eyed following, I say it is all right. We can read the book. We can read the verses, translation, Hindi translation. But that is not understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not understanding, I understand. But I am understanding from my teacher, just like I told you, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. There are so many stalwart teachers, practically whole Hindu community.
Guest (6): But every successive teacher has added some interpretations of the knowledge, no?
Prabhupāda: First of all let him be successor.
Guest (4): You are the successor of somebody.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Guest (2): There is a difference of day and night between blind following and his following.
Haṁsadūta: That is not blind following. Submissive inquiry and then you have to be prepared to test. Just like the professor, the professor in a college. He says, "You inquire from me." "My dear professor, how is it?" He says, "It is like this. You simply do this homework." And you do it. You have to do it; otherwise you cannot get any mark. You cannot make any advancement in the class. If you simply say, "Oh, why, why, why...?"
Guest (1): No, no, but...
Haṁsadūta: That is submission. That is inquiry and submission, that the master is there and you say, "All right, I accept you as my master and I want to follow your instruction." And then in the end, when you have done the work, then you can say, "Oh, this master, yes, he is correct," or "No, he's a fool."
Guest (6): You have caught up only one śloka.
Haṁsadūta: There is no other way. It is not possible. Every śloka in the Bhagavad-gītā is as good as any other śloka because it is absolute.
Guest (6): Let me say, tell you what submissive word means in relation of Gītā.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, the perfect example given by Arjuna, the perfect disciple, is "Now I am confused about duty..."
Guest (7): ...more than you or I.
Haṁsadūta: Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa... What does he say?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. First let me know whether you want to submit or not?
Guest (8): I do!
Prabhupāda: First of all answer this question, whether you want to submit or not.
Prabhupāda: That's all right but do you think it is natural to pour water on the leaves?
Dr. Weir: Well, why not then, that for leaves, water's natural.
Prabhupāda: No. If you pour water on the leaves, but you don't water on the root, it will dry up. If you put food on your nose, on your eyes, the eyes will be blind and the nostril will be suffocated, but if you put in the proper place, in the stomach, the energy will be distributed.
Dr. Weir: You know that's just an analogy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is natural. Similarly, if God is the root of everything, as we understand from Vedānta-sūtra. God means the original root of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The description of Absolute Truth, of God is there in the Vedānta-sūtra. The first aphorism is, "What is God?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā, inquiry about God. The next aphorism is "God is that which is the root of everything, from which everything emanates." That is the perfect definition of God, the origin of everything. So the same example as God, that the root is the origin of the whole tree.
Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority.
Dr. Weir: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same..., to some people it comes terribly easily.
Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority.
Dr. Weir: You then reject the idea of a fear of God.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which… beyond the material defects.
Dr. Weir: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source.
Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him.
Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing.
Prabhupāda: Not... So many things. So, if you do not follow the principles of Christianity, simply by stamping yourself as Christian, will that do? So why Jesus Christ will be responsible for you? Simply by stamping yourself that "I am Christian." Is that very reasonable proposal?
Nara-Nārāyaṇa: Lord Jesus himself never claimed that he would be responsible. As a matter of fact, he would heal certain persons who by their karma were blind, or lame deaf, or some disease, even dead, he would bring them back to life, so many things. And then when he healed them, he invariably said after, he said, "Now go thou and sin no more lest the worst thing befall you." And he has been saved by Jesus personally, yet Jesus is saying, "lest the worst thing befall you." How can the worst thing befall you if everything he does then is all right? So that means Jesus does not take that responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why he should be responsible? If you are not a Christian, why he should be responsible? Now, here he says that "Now you have sinned, full reaction I have washed, don't do it again."
Nara-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: But they are going to church, confessing every week, and doing the same thing. Who is a Christian, first of all find out, then Jesus Christ will take responsibility.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bob: I have a sweater here if you like.
Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma. Bad karma, you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma. So... (microphone noise) ...some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma. You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that?
Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle.
Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some... (break)
Bob: ...who is not very aware of God, but...
Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal.
Devotee (2): She said if someone else didn't shoot her, she would. She'd just do herself in.
Prabhupāda: Hopeless life. Māyā-sukhāya. Because they waste their time simply for flickering happiness, in future everything is zero. Śūnyavādī, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. Śūnyavādī means whose ultimate goal is zero. Pāścātya-deśa, Western countries. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. (chants japa) Every one of you should take this movement very seriously and save your country. Misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas (SB 7.5.31). (laughs) Blind men. This Nixon is a rascal number one, and he's the president. Just see. They have no other selection. All the people are rascals, and they must select one rascal to become their guider, another big rascal. (devotees chant japa) (break) ...from Māyāpur?
Devotee (Karāndhara?)(3): Yes. The one you've written, from the old Book Trust?
Prabhupāda: No, no. They have sent one account.
Devotee (3): Oh, yes, I reviewed that.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (3): I reviewed it. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Do you think it is all right?
Devotee (3): Appears to be in order.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Crazy.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So a crazy man's statement is not accepted. Child's statement, crazy man's statement, unauthorized person's statement, blind man's statement, we cannot accept.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's statement?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's...
Prabhupāda: If a woman is perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Just like Jāhnavā-devī, Lord Nityānanda's wife, she was ācārya. She was ācārya. She was controlling the whole Vaiṣṇava community.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lord Nityānanda?
Prabhupāda: Wife. Jāhnavā-devī. She was controlling the whole Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava community.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have references about that in any of your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: I don't think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā-devī was accepted as, but she did not declare.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa playing, fighting the demons.
Prabhupāda: Then they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Somehow or other, this is the goal. In fighting also there is Kṛṣṇa. Somebody may become a demon, Kṛṣṇa is fighting, carrying Him away. These are described in the Kṛṣṇa book.
Devotee (5): I noticed that, that everything is in there, even blind man's bluff, and hide and seek. These things originated in the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (5): That everything is in the Kṛṣṇa book to engage the children.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Children here play hide and seek, which is also..., the gopīs play.
Devotee (5): Cowherd boys.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Cowherd boys play the game.
Prabhupāda: Yes, also in India. That is a popular play for children. We..., we played. It gives great pleasure, that "I have hidden; my friend cannot see me." This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Then what are these? American cows?
Guest (2): Yes. They said, "Our cows are not holy."
Prabhupāda: Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). They are blind. They do not know about self. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, parābhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, parābhava.
Guest (2): One thing I have been thinking for years together, but I could never understand it. In Bhagavad-gītā when Lord Kṛṣṇa..., Arjuna asks a question, kena prayukto 'yaṁ pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ. Lord Kṛṣṇa says, kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. The kāma... Where is the beginning of this kāma?
Prabhupāda: Rajo-guṇa. That is stated, rajo-guṇa. (Hindi) Rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Therefore you have to come to the sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa, to come to the sattva-guṇa, you have to sāttvika vikāra (Hindi)... They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). That is sattva-guṇa. Satyaṁ śaucam.
Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge has begun from wrong conception of life.
Jayatīrtha: They see that they are being cheated, yet they are cheating others also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda says, there are so many departments of knowledge in all the universities, but the most important department of knowledge, what is the purpose of human life, is left out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...leaders. General public, they do no know, they are ignorant, blind. But the leaders are also blind. So blind leader leading other blind men, that means disaster. That is happening.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Most people, including scientists, they are not satisfied with the arrangement of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they are making all these things.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. We cannot change the arrangement of the nature. That is not possible. What we have changed?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to be really happy, and so they say the...
Prabhupāda: No, you be happy, that is nice, because happiness is our position. According to Vedic civilization, every living entity is by nature should be happy. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is the nature, to become happy. But if you say that the arrangement of nature is not perfect, then you are fool.
Prabhupāda: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, "What we have done?" They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So if the leader is degraded, how can the followers...
Prabhupāda: Similarly, scientists, they do not know what is imperfection, and they are scientists.
Devotee (2): The thing about the blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Jayatīrtha: Also, they aren't able to attract any new priests. In their seminaries, the enrollment has gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: The enrollment has gone down to ten to fifteen percent of what it was previously.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: They can't get anyone to come and join their seminaries because they aren't teaching anything, just (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: What they will teach, what do they know? First of all you must know, then you will teach. You are rascal, what you will teach? That is another cheating. He does not know anything, he is a teacher. People want it. Just like these rascals are advertising, these gurus, they say "You haven't got to chant. You simply come to Guru Mahārāja." That means these people, because we have got so many restrictions, he has to chant, he has to follow, they think it is botheration. So that means immediately they want to be cheated. Therefore, another cheater is welcomed. They want to be cheated, so when a cheater comes, he is welcomed, "Oh, you are very nice. You are so simple, and this Swamiji is so strict." So they want to be cheated. Therefore God sends a cheater: "Go and cheat them."
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Karandhara: If it happened before, it should happen now.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And it is so amazing that people believe it.
Prabhupāda: That means fools.
Brahmā: The blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). All rascals, mūḍhāḥ. Our simple formula is: Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. Never mind what he is. We immediately reject him, a rascal. Our simple formula. And actually they're rascals. They're talking like rascals, childish, that life came from matter. Prove it. That future. What is this? I am very rich man. And as soon as I ask you: "Give me some money." "Oh, yes, I'll give you in future." What is this?
Devotee: Bluff.
Brahmānanda: Sometimes when we ask someone to become a life member, they say: "Yes, sometime in future." We become very disappointed.
Prabhupāda: We shall make vigorous propaganda against all this rascalism. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mūḍhāḥ. Challenge them.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We say it is nonsense. In future, it is all right. You say, "In future...", but where is your method for future prosperity? That I am talking... If a child is getting proper education, then we can say that he has got a good future. But if the child is wrongly directed, then where is his future? A patient who has gone to the physician and undergoing treatment, he can expect in future he will be cured. But if he's lying down on the bed, and does not know who is physician, then where is his future? He has no future. So all these leaders, they're rascals, and who are following these rascals, where is his future? He has no future. They're all rascals. Anyone accepting: "This rascal is a great scientist." So his future is doomed.
Brahmānanda: The blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not, he does not know what is future happiness. He does not know.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't want to admit that.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot do at the moment, but somebody will come up in future so they can show. But they don't want to admit...
Prabhupāda: So that's all right, but, at the present moment, you are rascal. Somebody when come, intelligent, that is another thing, but you are rascal. So why you are leading, cheating others? That is our protest, that you know that you are a rascal, and you are cheating others to become leader. That is our protest. Why should you cheat others? Mūḍhaḥ. If he says that: "How do you know that I am rascal?" Because you do not know God. Therefore you are rascal. Mūḍhaḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). If you are, would have known what is God, then you would have surrendered to Him. Then you are intelligent. But because you do not surrender, you do not know what is God, therefore you are a rascal. This is the definition of rascal. Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. And intelligent means one who surrenders. He's intelligent. One who does not, he's rascal.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes.
Prabhupāda: Even hope, there is no hope.
Brahmānanda: Blind hope.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask any doctor: "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying, everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge? (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real knowledge...is taken away by ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it says: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is claiming that: "I shall lead you, other blind men."
Brahmānanda: Into the pit.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (pause) And in Bhāgavata, in one word, finishes all... Kliśyamānānām. You'll have to work hard, avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So kāma-karmabhiḥ. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem. And you have to work very hard. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Nobody asked any questions.
Brahmānanda.: Blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Anyway he has admitted, "I do not know." That is sufficient defeat for him. But they are shameless. In spite of being defeated, they won't admit that "I am defeated." Not gentlemen. Formerly between two learned scholars there will be argument. If one is defeated... Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. As soon as he became defeated, he became His disciple. That's all. That was the system. Not that we go on arguing for hours, and one is defeated; still, he remains the same. No. If you are defeated, then you must accept the other party as your master. That was the system. As soon as he said that I do not know, he should have become your disciple. That is the system. "If you do not know why you have come to teach me."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He should come and become a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, Prabhupāda... No. We want everyone to become Kṛṣṇa's disciple. That is our mission. We are disciplic succession. The original master is Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Little wet, but not much.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "You fully surrender. I give you full protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). He will give you full intelligence. (break) ...these facts in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will be our great success when the scientific world will admit. Let them admit simply. Then our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will (be) great success. You simply admit, "Yes, there is God and mystic power." Then our movement is very successful. And that's a fact. Simply talking like a nonsense amongst the nonsense, that is not a very great credit. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading other blind man. What is the value of such? They are all blind. And so long one remains blind and rascal, he does not accept God. This is the test. As soon as we see that he does not accept God, he is blind, rascal, fool, whatever you can call. Take it for granted, however, whatever he may be. He's a rascal. On this principle we can challenge so many big, big chemist, philosopher, whoever comes to us. We say, "You are demon." The other chemist came, you brought him, that Indian?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hm. Chouri.(?)
Prabhupāda: Chouri. (laughing) So I told him that "You are a demon." But he was not angry. He admitted. And all his argument was refuted. Perhaps you remember.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, these also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is governed by democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we'll take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas, great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta. Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. In small codes, the things are given there, Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Him.
Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept any authority.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I don't, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out, whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take.
Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. We don't say authority blind faith. Authority, that's not blind faith.
Krishna Tiwari: And just...
Prabhupāda: Now, just... Suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says, "Here is your father." You follow blindly?
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing.
Prabhupāda: Mother may say wrong.
Prabhupāda: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing, he also... So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection. But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They've no knowledge; they do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man. So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I'm old man, I've got my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I've now present, and why is my future? They do not care for the future. They're so blind. There must be future. So what I'm doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there. So this is foolishness. He doesn't care for the future. So one who is foolish, without any knowledge of the future, whatever he's doing is defeated—in ignorance, because it is ignorance. Just like a boy does not take education, does not think of future. That is not very good. We must be prepared for the future, his next life. Yes, where is that civilization? Where is that education, that people are thinking for future life? Is there any educational system at the present moment? So everything is being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Abodha-jāta, these rascal fools, born foolish. He does not inquire about the self-realization, so whatever he is doing, it is all defeat, he is spoiling his time, because he does not know.
Prabhupāda: That means cheating.
Mr. Wadell: I see you have here, certain bits of equipment which didn't exist...
Prabhupāda: That is described in the Vedic literature: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "A blind man is trying to lead other blind men."
Mr. Wadell: I suspect that that is as probably very near to the truth of human situation...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. What is the benefit? If I am blind and if there are hundreds of blind men, "All right, come on, I shall..."
Mr. Wadell: I think we are all partially blind.
Prabhupāda: No, then there is no question of knowledge. Somebody must be with eyes. He can give knowledge. That is our proposition. As soon as you say blind, there must be somebody with eyes. It is a relative term. It is a relative term. You cannot say, "all are blind." Then there is no question of blind and with men eyes. As soon as you accept blind man, you must accept the other side, man with eyes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is relative world.
Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... (BG 18.65). The scholars say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varṇa-saṅkara.
Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varṇa-saṅkara.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the only remedy is
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
This is the only, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the...
Reporter: Hm. But what...?
Prabhupāda: It is most scientific.
Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life?
Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, there's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with almighty God.
Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind.
Mother: We're going to almighty God. That's all.
Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mother: We're going to almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry.
Jesuit Priest: That's in his hands.
Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification?
Mother: We know. We...
Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God?
Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world, and that is truth for me.
Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life?
Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life?
Haṁsadūta: Purīs and sweet rice.
Prabhupāda: So we are simply trying to revive people's dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So every sane man, every good government, everyone should come forward to help this movement. It is not a personal affair. We are not presenting that "I am avatāra, I am God." We are presenting science, philosophy. You see? Why we are taking so much trouble to write so many books? If we... We want to convince people through science, philosophy, logic, religious principle, by practical behavior. All these boys are being trained up not to have any illicit sex, not to eat meat, and not to take any intoxication up to tea, coffee, cigarette and not to indulge in gambling. They're doing that. So we are making men of character, men of religion, men of philosophy. Why people should not cooperate with us? We are not presenting any blind, so-called religious faith. No. That is not our business. Our business is śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra. You understand little Bengali? You understand Hindi.
Prabhupāda:
- śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra
- vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra
- (CC Adi 8.15)
If you are sane man, if you give due consideration, and then give your judgement, then you'll find that it is wonderful. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra. We don't say that you take it blindly. No. Vicāra. After full logic, and consideration, you accept, not blindly. But if you do that, you'll see it is wonderful. It is wonder... So why those who are advanced in education, they should not take this movement seriously and try to understand seriously and cooperate with us? It is not a blind thing. So... Actually, from government level, we are not getting any support. Not... I don't speak in India. Anywhere.
Ambassador: Yes, I am aware of the government problem.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Because they think, "Oh, it is religious." Not only they are... In America there are big, big foundation. As soon as we submit some petition, "Help us," "No, no, we don't help any religious movement." That's all. We don't get any help. Simply Kṛṣṇa has given us this chance of selling these books. That's all. Nobody's cooperating. Rather, when our people go to sell these literatures and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're arrested and harassed.
Prabhupāda: But we are concerned with the real life. We are consider, concerned with the real life. If you can produce one real life, a small ant, not human being, then I shall think that you are successful in your program. But that you cannot do. Why do you talk nonsense? Therefore you are cheating. Why should he say: "That I cannot say," if he's not confident. That means cheating. Everyone is doing that. He's not confident about his theory, and he's speaking long, long speech. And people are fools. They are hearing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading many blind man. What is the benefit? The leader has no eyes, and he's leading many blind men. What is the use?
Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: And these so-called scientists will reply: "Yes, we are trying. In future..." In future, everyone can expect future. But the hearsay is that: "Trust no future, however pleasant." Why future? In past we could not do. At present we cannot not do. What is the guarantee that in future we'll be able to do? There is no history that anyone has produced life from chemicals. What do your, what do you think, that life is a product of chemicals? Do you mean to say?
Dr. Hauser: That is what I've been taught. Yes. About the evolution of the earth. And...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if...
Dr. Hauser: ...all the different stages of life.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that's a fact...
Dr. Hauser: It's not a fact. I don't know whether it's a fact. I... But that's...
Prabhupāda: Then that means illusioned. You are not confident, but you accept that theory. This is illusion.
Guest (1): It is God's desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nature's arrangement. And those who are rich... There are richer section when the rice was selling at three rupees per mound, and the richer section is still there when rice is selling, nine rupees a kilo. So they have no eyes because less intelligent. They cannot make equal. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, in the prakṛti there are three modes of material nature. They will be manifested. It is not possible to make everyone of the same standard, the standard must be different. So they are simply spoiling their time to make the whole society on the same status. The communists are trying, the others are trying. That is not possible. So one should not be disturbed with all these superficial low and high places. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,
- yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete
- puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha
- sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīraṁ
- so 'mṛtatvāya kalpate
One is not disturbed with this outwards happiness and distress, he's eligible to become immortal. Saḥ amṛtatvāya. How? (Hindi) Yaṁ hi... (break) ...amṛta, eternal. And that is perfection. And that is going back to home, back to Godhead. But they do not know what is the aim of life. Still, they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), leaders are blind, and they're leading blind men. Therefore there is always disaster, confusion.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to understand the value of life. The modern system of education and civilization is so degraded that people have forgotten the value of life. Generally, in this material world everyone is forgetful of the value of life, but the human form of life is a chance to awaken the importance of life. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long one is not awakened to the consciousness of self-realization, the foolish living entity, whatever he is doing is defeat for him. This defeat is going on in the lower species of life because they cannot understand what is the value of life. Their consciousness is not advanced. But even in the human form of life, the same defeat prolongs, that is not very good civilization. That is almost animal civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānyā etat paśubhir narāṇām. If people are simply engaged in the four principles of bodily demands-eating, sleeping, mating and defending—that is visible in animal life also, so that is not very advancement of civilization. So our attempt Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to come to the responsibility of human life. This is our Vedic civilization. The problem of life is not the difficulties for a few years of this duration of life. The real problem of life is how to solve the repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). People are embarrassed with so many problems of life, but the real problem of life is how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. So people are callous. They have become so dull-headed that they do not understand the problem of life. Long, long ago when Viśvāmitra Muni saw Mahārāja Daśaratha, so Mahārāja Daśaratha inquired from the Viśvāmitra Muni, aihistaṁ yat taṁ punar janma jayaya (?): "My dear sir, the attempt that you are trying to conquer over death, how that business is going on nicely? Is there any interruption?" So this is our Vedic civilization, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. But at the modern time there is no such information, neither anybody is interested. Even big, big professors, they do not know what is there after life. They do not believe even that there is life after death. So this is a blind civilization going on.
Guest (1) Indian man: Yes. We have to convince them about the method of approach.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If these boys, in their scientific language, they try to convince, that will be more effective. We are generally speaking that "Water has come from Kṛṣṇa," or "The earth has come from Kṛṣṇa." That may be blind. But if it is scientifically presented, how it has come from Kṛṣṇa, then they cannot refute so easily. So that I am engaging this doctor of chemistry, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Rāya Rāmānanda. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's two personal associates, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Rāmānanda.
Guest (1): Yes, and Rāya Rāmānanda. Very, very strange coincidence.
Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Idaṁ hi puṁsas śrutasya vā... You find out this verse. You have to find out the... No, no, from here. You have to take the index. Where is Paṇḍita? Paṇḍita is not here?
Guest (1): Pradyumnajī. Pradyumna. You call him paṇḍita?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Rightly so.
Prabhupāda: He is American paṇḍita. Paṇḍitjī?
Śrutakīrti: He is out.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he's out.
Guest (1):. He came to me today, asked for a copy of Harināmāmṛta-vyākaraṇa, which we have...
Prabhupāda: Hm. You find out the verse: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is siddhi. What is perfection of life, they do not know. Neither they have information.
Brahmānanda: Simply they talk about it.
Prabhupāda: All foolish. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind man leading other blind men. There is no sense. Whole civilization. It is, this Kṛṣṇa con..., our movement is a challenge to everyone, a challenge, genuine challenge. After all, everyone wants happiness, but they do not know what is happiness. So you can make few puris and kittri. That's all.
Brahmānanda: Śrutakīrti! Prabhu.
Śrutakīrti: Pālikā is already cooking.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Brahmānanda: Puris, he said.
Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi can also be...
Śrutakīrti: Puri or parāṭā, I think, would be...
Prabhupāda: Parāṭā can do.
Śrutakīrti: Yes, she is...
Prabhupāda: So you can give me massage now.
Brahmānanda: Massage him.
Śrutakīrti: Yes. All right.
Prabhupāda: Actually they eat all rubbish, but they think like.... It is a misguided civilization.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men leading other blind me, this is going on.
Guest: I was suggesting, we have got this, ah.... What you call that flower? (indistinct)
Devotee:: (indistinct)
Guest: No, no, what you call that (indistinct) that flower came?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest: White flower, fragrant flower, it is called Parajit.
Devotee: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta.
Lady Guest: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this you can have.
Prabhupāda: No, a Pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible.
Hṛdayānanda: There was one big scandal where they found out all the scientists were just taking money. Even by material standards it was unnecessary. It was a very big scandal.
Prabhupāda: It must be they are scandals. They are after money. That's all. Not after knowledge. And what knowledge they have got? Simply speculating and befooling other fools. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is their business. One blind man is befooling other blind men. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very much convinced that this earth was gaseous. So there was no life at the beginning.
Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be that. But wherefrom the gas came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was just existing.
Prabhupāda: Bhinnā prakṛtiḥ. The answer is given. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ (BG 7.4). Vāyu, vāyu gas, it came from Kṛṣṇa. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāyu. Vāyu is gas, is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Air.
Prabhupāda: And finer than the vāyu is the ether, the sky. Finer than the sky is the mind. Finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So they do not know this. They capture only middle thing, vāyu. Wherefrom the vāyu came? Wherefrom the gas came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That part remains unanswered. That part cannot be answered.
Prabhupāda: But we answer, we answer. We have got the knowledge. The gas came from ether, and ether came from mind, and mind came from intelligence, and intelligence came from the soul.
Bali Mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And our thankless task is... Just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say, "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going...? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it.
Umāpati: The followers of Guru Maharaji, the so-called...
Prabhupāda: Well, don't talk of Guru Maharaji. He's a rascal. What is the use of talking about him?
Umāpati: They say that...
Prabhupāda: They say! They are fools and rascals. We are not concerned.
Umāpati: (too faint)
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, this way, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: What do they say?
Bali Mardana: They have no philosophy. It is useless to discuss.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is nonsense. A set of nonsense.
Prabhupāda: That's not faith, that's fact.
Karandhara: They say when we offer prasādam, it's just a faith that a God accepts it because you cannot see God eating.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot see, I see. I am not a fool like you. (laughter) I can see; therefore I offer. But you cannot see. So I have to open your eyes. You come to me. That is our propaganda. You are blind. You are suffering with cataract. I shall operate and you'll see also.
Yaśomatīnandana: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You don't see, that does not mean I don't see. Why do you accept like that? You may be fool rascal.
Karandhara: They want their team of scientists to see it.
Prabhupāda: Scientist means another rascal. Big rascal. You are a rascal, and your bigger scientist, he's a big rascal. He's a big rascal. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). You know this verse? Explain.
Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water-direct perception. Who has made it?
Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the śāstra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?
Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision.
Prabhupāda: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupāda: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.
Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Guru and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person.
Prabhupāda: He has to die. He could not solve his death and he's a big scientist. What kind of scientist is that?
Hṛdayānanda: Boy!
Prabhupāda: The real problem remain unsolved.
Devotee: ...death is blindness.
Prabhupāda: Ha? No. That is rascaldom. They do not see the real problem. Neither they're able to solve it. They're simply happy by some... Just like child. The child, he wants to play whole day long. He does not care. Like that. This human life is meant for making a perfect solution of all problems. That they do not care. There is some temporary benefit. They're very much busy and known as scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they'll say that it is ideal. That cannot be attained.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it can be attained, then you do not know. Then you are foolish. You say that cannot be attained. But I say it is possible. Śāstra states, Kṛṣṇa says—the whole thing is discovered. Simply understand Kṛṣṇa and next life you become eternal. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply if you go to our temple and see Kṛṣṇa, you'll be devotee. You don't do anything. Don't talk anything. Simply see Kṛṣṇa. It is so easy. You simply see Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam and live comfortably and next life you'll go to back to home back to Godhead.
Prajāpati: Actually they are so demoniac, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this...
Prabhupāda: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man going forward will fall into the ditch. So this is their rascaldom.
Bali Mardan: Can a person who eats meat obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat-eaters?
Prabhupāda: No, he'll become animal, and he'll be killed.
Bali Mardana: So that means practically all the population.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That animal will become man, and he'll kill him. He'll become animal. This is karma-bandhana. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Yajñārthe, in the yajña, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You will have to be killed.
Prajāpati: No, they were... One scientist, Galileo, he was making all kinds of inquiries into saying that the earth is round and so many things, and the church of that day, the rascal priests, they put him to death because he was saying things that were not in the scriptures. Since that time, especially the last hundred years, the scientists are...
Prabhupāda: No, the things is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody is rascal, either the scientist is rascal or the priest is rascal. There must be real understanding. That is government's duty. Otherwise, if the priest says, "The scientist speaking against religion; therefore he should be hanged," so that is not good government. Government must see that whether the scientist is speaking the truth. That sense must be there. Yes, world is round. That is fact. Goloka. In Vedic literature it is bhū-gola, jagad-aṇḍa. These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad-aṇḍa. The universe is round. And Goloka. Or Bhū-gola. Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo. So if the state is blind, he does not see whether he's talking right or wrong, then havi candra raja gobi candra mantri (?). What can be done. That is going on. Because the government means a set of fools, so all foolish people are flourishing. Government is a set of fools because sinful men. They cannot be intelligent. A sinful man cannot be intelligent. Yes. That's a fact. If he's intelligent, then his intelligence is used for wrong things. Duṣkṛtina. Kṛtina. Kṛtina means intelligent, but duṣkṛtina, badly intelligent, for doing wrong things. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality because he is under the direction of the master.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers. Blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others. They are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know.
Prajāpati: In the constitution is written in religious freedom. You should let... Anyone who wants to practice anything, it's all right in the constitution.
Prabhupāda: Religious freedom means everyone is rascal and every religion is rascaldom. So how they can check? They cannot check. Let it be. Go on.
Prajāpati: ...what these rascal philosophers do, psychologists and scientists, they say the things that are very sinful actually, that Kṛṣṇa says and the Bible and all of scriptures say are sinful, they say, "That's all right. You may do those things." Not only do they deny God's existence, but they say that which is sinful is actually good for you: "Yes. You must have intoxication, take illicit sex life," like that.
Prabhupāda: No good man will say like that. That is the difference between good man and bad man. The same example as I told, that one blind man is going this side, and another man says, "Yes, you are all right. Go this side." This is going on. Either he does not know, this rascal who says, "Yes, you can go this side," that he will fall down in the ocean and die... Both of them do not know. So one blind man, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is giving direction to another blind man. This is going on. Therefore Vedic injunction is to take direction: "You must go to guru." That is in... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Gurum eva, "Must go." Then he will get right direction. Otherwise misguided.
Prabhupāda: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see. "What is that light?" I say. But if somebody knows, "Oh, that light is from..., there is a skyscraper building like this, and the light is coming." So I know what I cannot see, I can hear. Therefore what you do not see, next life, you have to hear from authority. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "As you have changed so many times in this life, this body, similarly, after death, you will change your body." That is authority. You have to hear. Anything you do not, cannot perceive, you cannot experiment with your senses, you have to hear from another person who knows. That is the process. Why you think your eyes are so perfect that you can see anything? Why you are thinking like rascal? Your eyes are imperfect, and why you are thinking that eyes are perfect? That is rascaldom. I cannot see. You cannot see so many things. Is that a right proposition? I cannot see. What you are? What is your position of eyes? If there is darkness, you cannot see. So does it mean that your seeing is the only evidence? What do you think? Suppose if you are a blind man, what can you see?
Devotee: My senses are imperfect. I cannot see.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's all right. They will go on experimenting life after life. That is their foolishness.
Gurukṛpā: Next life they may have to experiment in a dog's body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And some of our politicians, he has become a dog. Yes. Nehru. He has become a dog, in Stockholm. Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told that to my mother and she would not believe it. You know, people think that if someone is a great politician or something, he can never become something like this.
Prabhupāda: Then why the politician dies? If he has got so good brain, let him live forever.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: People have so much blind faith in people like Nehru and Gandhi.
Prabhupāda: Jawaharlal Nehru did not want to give up his Prime Ministership unless he was collapsed. So why he did not live if he is so intelligent? And Kṛṣṇa says, if you have to believe Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). "He has to accept another body." So why you should disbelieve that he has accepted a dog's body? Because the acceptance of body is not your business. It is the business of higher nature. Daiva-netreṇa. So if the daiva likes that "You must take this dog's body," how can you refuse it? You cannot refuse.
Prabhupāda: Fourth-class, śūdra (indistinct), bribe.
Guest (1): (indistinct) one of the partners. (indistinct) another partner.
Guest (2): (indistinct) The demand it as a bribe also.
Guest (1): (indistinct) your partner like that?
Guru dāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali-yuga.
Guest (1): One thing is there, when I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact.
Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get...
Prabhupāda: If you're getting...
Guest (1): I am liberated that way already. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true.
Guru dāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat.
Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to.... I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things.
Guru dāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced.
Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the...
Guru dāsa: Advanced means such and such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. (break)
Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got.... (break)
Guest (3): ...somewhere. Saturday they close at, by 3 or 3:30 so I want to go before that.
Prabhupāda: So, you can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, but, I mean, it is all... It must fall. There is no culture. This is a total degeneration of the humanity at large.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must suffer. And they're suffering. Still, they're blind.
Dr. Patel: So-called followers of Christianity actually killing Christ every day.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you take Christianity? Everyone. Everyone.
Dr. Patel: No, but they are majority. They...
Prabhupāda: Everyone. Your Hindus also.
Dr. Patel: We have degenerated because we have been ruled by foreigners for so many years. But these fellows, being so free in thinking and doing things, they...
Prabhupāda: You see. Following of religious principle does not depend on foreign rule or home rule.
Dr. Patel: That does...
Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. This is the description. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). One who follows actually. Just like we are following some principles. It cannot be checked by anyone. We do not accept anyone.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I think it is so, to my mind. Look at the history of India. After thousand years ready...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion does not depend on history. It does not depend on history. It depends on culture, how one is sincere.
Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for...
Guest: "...leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.
Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the (indistinct). They did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want (indistinct), but you come in a different place. So (indistinct) is there, but I am thinking it is not (indistinct). Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) They're Australian. (Hindi conversation with another guest about Lakṣmī's position in relation to Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs) (break)
Guru Dāsa: Like Lord Caitanya, you have also showed him the right way.
Prabhupāda: He is on the line.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are individual.
Guest (1): That is individual, sir. As long as ghaṭa is there, you are individual ākāśa. That is correct.
Dr. Patel: These, all these analogies are nirdeśas. Nothing can explain or nothing can describe Brahman, beyond the reach of the mind and the tongue and the all the intelligence of a man.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore tad viddhi praṇi... upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. The tattva-darśī can.
Guest (1): Tattva-darśī can only do it.
Prabhupāda: One who is blind, one who is blind, one who is blind, he cannot.
Dr. Patel: That's right. What about the...
Prabhupāda: You cannot... You do not go to a blind man. Therefore it is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Where you shall surrender? You are blind. If you surrender to a blind man, what is the benefit?
Dr. Patel: Who surrenders there, you also surrender. Not the body...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to understand. You can surrender to a person when you think that "This person is..."
Guest (1): Good.
Prabhupāda: "...better than me."
Prabhupāda: Asaṁskṛtāḥ kriyā-hīnāḥ.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Everyone, all people, not only the ministers.
Dr. Patel: But yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad itaro janaḥ (BG 3.21).
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have become śreṣṭha. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men have become the leader of the blind men. That is the difficulty. And if you want to open their eyes, they will say, "No sanction for temple. Get out." Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). This is the position.
Bhava-bhūti: It's an excellent preaching point, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhava-bhūti: Christianity was taught to the publicans and the beggars, but Kṛṣṇa taught originally bhakti-yoga to the kings.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they were cultured.
Dr. Patel: According to the Upaniṣads, you know, actually the brahma-vidyā was with the kṣatriyas. And how could a brāhmaṇa boy come to kṣatriya to learn it. "But still, my boys, you have come and I will teach you." That is what we have seen in one of the...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...there is no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, "It is spiritual."
Indian Man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot...
Prabhupāda: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense? The blind man is just, "Oh, the elephant is big pillar."
Indian Man (1): Same thing will say that elephant is only trunk.
Prabhupāda: That's it. This kind of interpretation, what is the meaning?
Indian: They don't have that complete view of the whole.
Prabhupāda: If you are blind, you accept that "I am blind man. I cannot study what is this elephant," that is another thing. That is good. And if you are blind and by blind eyes you, "Oh, elephant is a pillar."
Indian Man (1): Some other blind will say the trunk...
Prabhupāda: So the blind man has no right to interpret. That is the point. Blind man... You are blind man. Remain as a blind man. Don't talk nonsense. That is our protest. Why should you interpret? You are blind man.
Indian Man (4): They should not try to, just around, create the meaning of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can we tell the difference between the blind man and one who can see?
Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. Any foolish man can understand, "Here is a blind man; here is a man with eyes." It is not very difficult. Why do you question this? One cannot see, that is blind man. Everyone knows it.
Yaśomatīnandana: Their interpretation is just opposing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am..."
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Indian Man (1): They have no opposition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main point. That is the main point, Kaṁsa, to kill Kṛṣṇa. "Let Kṛṣṇa come out and I shall kill Him immediately." The Kaṁsa philosophy. All these rascals, they don't give any importance to Kṛṣṇa. All this interpretation.
Indian Man (1): Śaṅkarācārya has written the Kṛṣṇa aṣṭakam.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya is not blind man. But those who are rascals, blind, why do they interpret? They should not interpret. (break)
Italian Man (4): ...mentioned Kṛṣṇa. This is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is coming from Europe. Jaya. He's also. Never mentioned. The only policy is how to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Here is a foreign reader. He says.
Indian Man (1): Which book you have read?
Italian Man (4): Well, I have read every book that can be available.
Indian Man (1): Have you read Rādhākrishnan on Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: He is first-class impersonalist. He is a first-class blind man. First-class blind man.
Indian Man (1): But still, he appreciates Kṛṣṇa. He has never told any...
Prabhupāda: How can you...
Indian Man (1): Well, I read it, I studied it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. After all, he's a brāhmaṇa, Hindu brāhmaṇa. How he can defy Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible.
Indian Man (1): On the contrary, he is also a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but he says that after bhakti, devotion...
Indian Man (5): Who?
Indian Man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan.
Indian Man (5): President of India. (break)
Indian Man (4): Our book is there in London, not Vivekananda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. His books are rejected.
Indian Man (1): They want some companions. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Why, why, why? This is very dangerous. If I know that "I am blind," why should I ask other blind man, "All right you come behind me. I shall cross you the ocean." Why this cheating? You say that "I am blind man. You are also blind man. So I cannot guide you." That is sincerity. That is sincere. (break) ...very much bewildered all over the world due to this rascal philosophy, that a blind man leading other blind men. So they should be delivered from this gross ignorance. (break) ...say that we have got eyes, but we are being led by Kṛṣṇa, who has got real eyes. Therefore we are safe.
Indian Man (1): In this world, unless they see the particular person.
Prabhupāda: They cannot see. He is blind, how he can see?
Indian Man (1): It is very difficult to believe he is God...
Prabhupāda: No, no, believe or don't believe. That is another thing.
Indian Man (1): So we must have spiritual eyes or something which is beyond our physical body. And so how why we are drowsing ourself and why we are just galloping in a different way? Because everybody says it is beyond...
Prabhupāda: No. Suppose you are blind. So you require the help of a man who has got eyes. So unless you are sure that "This man has got eyes," why should you take care of him? That is another ignorance. If I know the man who proposes to lead me, he is also blind, why shall I take his help?
Indian Man (1): But if he says, "I am also blind," but just trying to find out the way...
Prabhupāda: Yes, so find out the right way. Find out a man who has got the eyes.
Indian Man (1): It is open, anybody can take.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...qualification is there. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You speak only Kṛṣṇa's words. He doesn't say, "Your words, your interpretation." This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa's words. What Kṛṣṇa has said, just speak it. Then you become spiritual master.
- āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa
- yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa
- (CC Madhya 7.128)
And because you have become guru, you manufacture some ways and means, that is rascaldom. If you are guru, then you have to speak what Kṛṣṇa has said. That is guru. A guru does not manufacture anything. He is not guru. (break) ...it is. People are eager to give service to the fellow man, and not to the animals. How much blind they are. Just see. Animals have to be sent to the slaughterhouse, and fellow man should be given help. This is daridra-nārāyaṇa seva. And what this poor animal-nārāyaṇa has done? Because poor fund of knowledge. And here it is said that both the animals and the people should be taken care of. Who is taking care of the animals? Hundreds and thousands of animals are being slaughtered daily. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Who is taking care of them? How much short-sighted they are.
Prabhupāda: It is my practical experience. Śyāmasundara had to waste at least two to three hours to secure rice, fruits. Only milk and butter could we get. And then we had to wait in the... They would not allow us to cook unless they had finished. This was the difficulty. Practically I have suffered. All their claims are bogus. The people are not happy there. The young men are not allowed to go outside the country. Just see. All freedom lost. All freedom lost. It is a government of terrorism, that's all. And whatever the Communists do, simply by terrorizing that's all. They have no gentleman's method. Terrorizing. (break) ...misleading other rascals that "You come this way; you will be happy." And the rascals are being misled. They are accepting. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man is asking other blind men, "Come on, I shall cross you the street." But because he is rascal, he does not ask, "Sir, you are also blind. how will you lead us?" They cannot inquire. Or he does not know that "This man is asking me, who is willing to take the leadership, he is also blind." This blind man does not know, do not know. They do not know. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: So śāstra says, labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte: "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many many births, bahu-sambhavānte. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu yāvat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, then what about my sense enjoyment? Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose. Don't waste simply for viṣaya." Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. This you will get even if you become cat and dog. But in the cat and dogs, I will not get this opportunity, how to get out of this material existence. Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. These are the instructions of Prahlāda. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda. Now we have got books. These rascals, they have no books to read about this realization. They have got only Freud's philosophy and this... What is that? And Darwin's theory. All rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Let them read these books. This philosopher, that philosopher. What is that? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). The same philosophy, repeatedly for sense gratification, that's all. That rascal Mahesh Yogi, he also said that, "You take this special mantra; your material enjoyment will be easier." The same: the punaḥ punaś carvita. He has no other information. "It will be better." And they accepting. "Oh, my enjoyment will be better? All right, take $35. Give me that mantra." They like it because they are promising that "You will get this..." Politicians also, they are promising, "You take this ism. Your sense gratification will be easier." The same promise. This ism or that ism. This yogi, that yogi. But nobody knows what is actually happiness. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, material body's enjoyment. Durāśayā. It is simply a hope which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Āśayā means hope and dur means very difficult. It will not be possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are being led by such rascal leaders, who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adānta-gobhiḥ. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pi (SB 7.5.31). They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically.
Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so-called leaders. They are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all, finished.
Prof. Regamay: But they have still four thousand years of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not four thousand, 400,000. So here the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this... The atom bomb is ready. You have got, I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finish. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill... You know, grinding mill?
Prof. Regamay: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. Save means... This is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma... Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa Book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them?
Prabhupāda: No. They'll more and more forget Kṛṣṇa. This is Kali-yuga. On account of these blind leaders. Don't you see that this rascal Darwin's theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated, that is very much appreciated. That is scientific. "You forget God," that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, "You are primitive, old type." That's all. "You are conservative." That, another rascal, Allen Ginsberg, he was speaking, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) (break)
Bhagavān: ...discuss that the fact that when people die in different modes of nature, how they come back, and you say that (if) people die in the mode of passion, they come back in human life, if they die in the mode of ignorance, they come back in demonic species of life. So the people today seem to be... Is it that they'll all come back as animals in their next life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Pradyumna: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād-bhagavat-praṇītam—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect."
Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Some people use the argument, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that by this advancement of technology, it will free us to think of philosophical.
Prabhupāda: They will free us. They will free us. Oh, that will never come. That will never come. Therefore they are called bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are captivated by the external feature, and one who is leading them, he's also blind, and one who is following, he's also blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know that material laws are so strong that they are not free to do anything.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They are thinking that the technology will free them.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No. No.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The technology cannot...?
Prabhupāda: It will bind them.
Bhagavān: It simply creates newer problems.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Some people glorify suffering in the material world because they say this increases their sense of appreciating the momentary happiness they have.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. (laughter) That is good, yes. "Blessings of adversity." That is blessing.
Pṛthu Putra: He says yes.
Prabhupāda: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life, the aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf... The suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life. That's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside:) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation. He does not know where is the bead? On the... There is a bead. Just see.
Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal, he says, the real goal, the real things...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. We have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child. He does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind forward. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?
Yogeśvara: Who can judge.
Prabhupāda: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. (French)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority?
Yogeśvara: How can we tell a real authority?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority?
Prabhupāda: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know... Therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead, so you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand.
Professor Durckheim: No, nothing.
Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very quite visible in the western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā. That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha. The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the...
Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated.
Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by... That is also statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja, this boy devotee. He says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: (SB 7.5.31) "These foolish people, they do not know, what is their actual self-interest." So he says, "They do not know the actual self-interest is approaching God. That is real self-interest. But they do not know it." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). "They have made their plan wrongly to become happy in this material world." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahir-artha-māninaḥ means external: "They have taken the external energy, the material world, as very important. And the leaders also, the so-called leaders... They are being led. The leaders, they are blind, and they are leading some other blind men without knowing that they cannot be happy in that way because he is under strict, stringent laws of nature, material nature." That Bhagavad-gītā therefore recommends,
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
This is illusion, that they are under the control of the material nature... Just like the so-called foolish scientists. They don't care for God. They think by so-called scientific advancement they will progress..., all the problems will be solved. That is not possible. One of my students, he is double M.A. in chemistry and Ph.D. I asked him to discuss these things. He has written a small, a little book. Find out this book. Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Here, yes, this book. So he has very scientifically discussed. The scientists, so-called scientists, they are going to be as all in all... Hm...
Bishop Kelly: I think I left my glasses in the car.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Just try this glass. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You can. You behave like that, others will learn.
Umāpati: For example, I have seen many godbrothers offer one another respects, but I very seldom see that in terms of some of our leaders.
Prabhupāda: So some of you show by practical example, guide them. Then others will...
Bali Mardana: One person who sees can lead thousands of blind men.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Very good. (pause) (break) ...not for rain, eh? Simply for covering the sun, eh?
Jayatīrtha: Yes.
Kṛṣṇa-kānti: There's no yajña, so there's no sun.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Jayatīrtha: No rain, no sun.
Prabhupāda: No, in the Kali-yuga it will be like that. There will be cloud, even thunderbolt and lightning, but there will be no rain. That is stated.
Bali Mardana: That is very inauspicious. That is not auspicious.
Prabhupāda: No.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he accepts that we can receive perfect knowledge, but then because I am imperfect I make an imperfect interpretation.
Prabhupāda: No, you are not allowed interpretation. As soon as you interpret, you become imperfect. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Don't interpret. Before this, all these rascals were simply interpreting and spoiling the whole thing. So this is the fact.
Professor: So what you really are asking for is blind faith.
Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. Perfect man is perfect. Unless you understand that he is perfect, don't hear from him. That is blind. Without knowing that he is perfect, if you hear, that is your imperfectness. Why should you try to hear from a person whom you do not know perfectly well that he is perfect?
Hṛdayānanda: Can I translate that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you hear blindly, that is your imperfectness. You must be first of all convinced that. "The person from whom I am hearing, he is perfect." Then your knowledge is perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is due to your ignorance. You have followed the so-called rascal politicians. You have not followed Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this misfortune is there. Misguided. Now...
Guest (1): Everything comes from the mother earth. We are in very short supply of things.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa. You are guided by Dr. Radhakrishnan. That is the misfortune. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is being, is following another blind man. That is going on. That is going on all over the world, not only in India.
Guest (2): I think Mahatma Gandhi followed the Gītā, all these...
Prabhupāda: But he did not believe in Kṛṣṇa and he followed Gītā. Just see.
Prabhupāda: Realities... If you have no knowledge, what do you know about reality? If you have no knowledge, then what is reality, what is non-reality, how can you know? If your knowledge is imperfect, then how you can say reality? Suppose beyond this wall you cannot see, and how you can speak of the reality beyond this wall? That is misfortune. You do not see what is there clearly, and you are speaking on the reality. Your senses are defective. What do you know about reality?
Guest (1): In the spiritual level yes, we are very blind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is reality.
Guest (1): But at the material level, at the level where people eat their food and live their lives, I think...
Prabhupāda: That is also on account of presence of the spirit soul. Actually it... Whatever little you are doing on account of presence of the spirit soul, as soon as the spirit soul is gone then your body and senses are simply lump of matter. So you are working with that lump of matter on account of presence of the spirit soul. Therefore that is more important. To understand what is that spirit soul, how it is working, what is his position, that, that is real knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins in the Bhagavad-gītā, first lesson, about the spirit soul, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So you are studying the deha, that we are discussing just now. One is studying the motor car but he has no knowledge of the driver.
Indian man: I will accept, but not as Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata. I may not know anything about Him as of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not very good theory. You do not know anything about Him, and you surrender to Him. What is this?
Indian man: We may have our own idea.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. If we surrender, we must know Him first of all, what He is. Then we surrender. We are not blind. Suppose you tell me that "You surrender unto me." Shall I do that? Why shall I do it?
Indian man: But...
Prabhupāda: No "but." First of all answer this. If I do not know anything about you and you demand from me, "You surrender," shall I do it?
Indian man: I will be knowing what He has preached, if I... That preaching itself is enough and we need not look anything about Him. We can surrender.
Prabhupāda: That He preaches...
Indian man: That preaching is enough.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Indian man: We need not know what He is.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You accept His preaching?
Indian man: If it is accepted, then we can surrender. I was questioning only this point, whether the Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata is necessary to accept...
Prabhupāda: No, no, set aside Bhāgavatam. I have told you that first of all you try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.
Prabhupāda: And catalogue? Where is? This is BBT?
Gargamuni: Yes. This tells about your books.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them?
Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?
Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure.
Guest: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.
Guest: Without being...?
Prabhupāda: Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. And they are trying to lead other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down on the ditch.
Guest: And they attempt to lead others...
Prabhupāda: Blind men. Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā in the words,
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- māyayāpahṛta jñānā
- āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
Because they have denied the existence of God, therefore they are blind and they are engaged in sinful activities without knowing what is going to happen next in his life. Therefore mūḍha, rascal. And narādhamāḥ. Narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind, because in the human form of life one could understand what is God, but he is misusing his intelligence for something else, narādhamāḥ. But if you say, "They are educated. They have got so much education. Why do you condemn them?" then the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This so-called knowledge they have acquired, that means māyā has made them more foolish.
Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Prabhupāda: Then you become blind. Then you can see.
Devotee: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move.
Rāmeśvara: 'Cause they say that within the, within the earth...
Prabhupāda: That is within. You have got very good sight within. But I am a layman. I want to see that it is moving. (laughter) You have got some imaginary eyes. You can see.
Madhudviṣa: They say that's advancement.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: Advancement of science.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is... Who will say it is moving unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone... The whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why, where it is moving?
Rāmeśvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving.
Prabhupāda: And therefore it is moving.
Rāmeśvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're...
Prabhupāda: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is moving without Kṛṣṇa's indication. That is the explanation,
Mayādhyakṣeṇa: (BG 9.10) "Under My superintendence..." When Kṛṣṇa desires, this big, big chunk will move in the air. Recently, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja said, the buses were flying in the sky.
Brahmānanda: Buses?
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Darwin.
Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And whole city smashed.
Prabhupāda: Interpretation... (Hindi)
Guest: (Hindi)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to go.
Prabhupāda: We are discussing the same thing, we go or not go. (laughter)
Guest: People are waiting.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You are a young man therefore I am requesting you: don't be misled by these blind leaders. Take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and you'll be happy.
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: The meaning is clear, very clear. There is no question of interpretation.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Brahmānanda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot...
Prabhupāda: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupāda: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?
Nitāi: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce...
Prabhupāda: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature?
Gaṇeśa: So how can the scientists arrive at vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)?
Prabhupāda: For that he has to take direction from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is, I am the destination, come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he's unfortunate—he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Kṛṣṇa, and take His direction.
Paramahaṁsa: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "A blind man is leading other blind men."
Devotee (1): Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (pause) Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.
Amogha: But if they actually go to the forest, then that will be one step.
Prabhupāda: No, it is disappointment. It is simply disappoint... That is not solution. But people will do that. When the one is mad he doesn't know what to do—"Let me go to the forest." Achinna dāra-draviṇaṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam, it is said. Giri means mountain, and kānanam means forest. Giving up their hearth and home... They are already giving up the home, wife, children, and going away. Everybody doing that.
Sister: But have they met God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is God.
Sister: They can believe in Him, but have they met Him?
Prabhupāda: So belief, that is being effective. It is not blind belief. They are seeing the picture of Kṛṣṇa, and they are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and they are making progress.
Sister: But that would be the same if I could see a picture of you or I could see a...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. My self and my picture, is there any difference?
Sister: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If you see my picture, you see me. This is material picture. But God is omnipotent. God's picture is also God. That is God's potency. Otherwise we are worshiping Deity. People may think: "This is the form of Kṛṣṇa." The form of Kṛṣṇa, the name of Kṛṣṇa, the quality of Kṛṣṇa—they are all Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. In the material world there is difference. Otherwise, why they are engaged in chanting, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare..." Have they become mad? Because Kṛṣṇa person and Kṛṣṇa's name, the same thing. That is Absolute. So here it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So if you chant Kṛṣṇa's name, that means you are directly associating with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are becoming purified. Just like if you associate with fire, you will remain always warm. Is it not? If you remain near the fireplace, you remain always warm. Similarly, if you chant Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, not different—then you will remain always spiritual.
Prabhupāda: It is mutual. It is mutual.
Guest (2): It's a mutual kind of support. But worshiping in a sense of religion or in a sense of a higher person, it's a different matter.
Prabhupāda: Worshiping means appreciating high qualities. Worshiping is not blind. If I know that you have some high qualities, I worship you.
Guest (2): Do you worship to a person or what? To his doctrines or...?
Prabhupāda: Worship means person. Worship does not mean imperson. Unless there is a person-to-person relationship, there is no question of worship.
Guest (2): Is... This picture of Śrī Viṣṇu, it's the person who you worship or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): He is the creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years.
Śrutakīrti: He's thinking that in a few hundred years the resources will be used up. He doesn't... He's thinking the resources will be used up.
Prabhupāda: But before that, you will be finished, so why you are anxious?
Paramahaṁsa: He's worrying about the civilization.
Prabhupāda: Civilization, but you will be finished. You will not take part in the civilization. You have no belief in the next birth. So why you are thinking like that? You will be finished, that's all. Why you are worried? Suppose I have come here for three weeks. If I simply think, "What will happen hundred years after I am in Australia?" What is my business? I will go away by three weeks. Why shall I bring so much thoughts about "What will happen, Australia, hundred years after"? You are going to be cats and dogs or something, or grass or anything else. But you will be finished. Then why you are anxious for Australia?
Paramahaṁsa: This is my country.
Paramahaṁsa: If I get insurance policy then they will have some money after I go...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is natural, that you think of future. But the foolishness is you don't think of your future. That is foolishness. This is natural. Because every living entity is eternal, therefore he has future. But for himself he is thinking, "There is no life, next." And he is thinking of the life which will come as his grandson or son, what will be their future. And he is blind about the own future. This is fourth-class man. Suppose some danger is coming. So shall I take care of you: "How you will be saved? How you will be saved?" How I will be saved—that is my first business. That he does not know. There have been many cases. There is all of a sudden fire. The man has left everything, and his baby was there. He was crying, "Oh, I have left my..." The natural tendency—"First of all save me." Self preservation is the first law of nature. So why did he forget about his baby? Now, when he comes out, he is thinking about baby. This is natural, that he does not think about himself; he is thinking about future generation.
Madhudviṣa: My eyes are not good enough.
Prabhupāda: Therefore if you have got imperfect eyes, what you can see? First of all you admit that you have got imperfect eyes. Then what you can see with your imperfect eyes? If you are a blind man, what is the use of telling, "I do not see." You are blind man, what you can see? First of all you admit that you are blind man, then talk of seeing. Therefore Vedic literature... Śāstra-cakṣus. You should see through śāstra, not your these blind eyes. Śāstra says there is Kṛṣṇa, He is doing like that. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛk... You should see like that. What you see with your eyes? Why you are so proud of your eyes? Blind eyes. That is submission. Do you see who is your father? Why do you accept by the recommendation of the mother that "Here is your father." Do you see who is your father? Then what is the use of telling, "I want to see"? What you can see? You have to take the authority of the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father," that's all. You cannot say, "I have not seen that he is my father." Can you say? So there is no value of this statement, "I do not see" or "We cannot see."
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. When you are trying to be a lawyer or barrister, that does not mean you are barrister. When you are a student of law you cannot say that "I am barrister," or "advocate," that you cannot say. You are trying to be, that is another thing. But while they are trying to be, they are taking the position of leader. That is the misleading. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "One blind man is trying to lead many other blind men." What is the use of such leading? If the leader is blind, how he will do well to other blind men?
Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Madhudviṣa: Beethoven, the great composer, he was deaf.
Guest 3: At least, for part of his life.
Guest 1: But can't you have people doing good for the sake of goodness?
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is good.
Guest 1: But there are certain people...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say blind. He does not know what is good. real goodness is to understand God. That is real goodness.
Amogha: They want to be well.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then "well" means they want to save themself from death. That means they want not to die. But death is there. Then where is the solution of problem? But they have no brain to think that "What these rascals will do? My problem is there. It is not solved." And still they accept. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). They are eulogized, they are praised, glorified, by another animal. He is an animal, big animal, and a small animal says, "Oh, you are our leader." The big animal is praised by the small animal. Both of them are animals. None of them are human being. So this is going on. A big animal bluffs him that "I have done so much for you. You give me vote." That's all. And the small animal thinks, "Yes, he has done so much. Give him vote." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that one blind man is leading other blind men. What is the use?
Hm? If I am blind man, if I say, "Come behind me. I shall take to St. Kilda," and as soon as I go in the road, you are killed, I am killed, that's all. That is going on.
Australian devotee 6: They say at death, there is death then finish.
Prabhupāda: But if you will be finished, then why you are attempting so much? Sit down now. Why you are making advancement of civilization?
Australian devotee 6: For their children, they say.
Prabhupāda: If you advance in civilization or do not advance in civilization, you will die. That is sure. Then why do you labor so much? Huh? The animals, they do not labor so much. They live peacefully on the condition of the nature. Why do you labor so much? If the result is the same—the animal will die and you will die—then why you are laboring so much for nothing? That means they have no common sense even. Therefore they are rascals. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "If you think there was no life before this body and if you think that there will be no life after this body, then why you are anxious for the body of your brothers and sisters?" So all these philosophies have been discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. After all, the conclusion is that they are all rascals. That's all. We have to take them as such rascals. After death everything is finished—that a child knows—but why you are making so permanent building? Piling, (imitates pile driver sound) "Donkhs!
Devotee (4): They cannot even appreciate something like that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They say, "Don't talk of God." That is their philosophy. (Gets into car) Post-dated check, they want all credit, and one who is paying cash, he has no credit.
Gurukṛpa: "Well, we can't see Him, so we can't believe it. We can't see who has done it."
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot see that the tree, wherefrom this tree has come. From the seed: you cannot see it? You are so blind? Why don't you see? Wherefrom this big tree has come? And such millions of big trees are on the floor. You cannot see it? Then you are blind.
Paramahaṁsa: It comes from that little seed.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows that.
Paramahaṁsa: But the seed came from another tree.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But who has made this arrangement, packed up, millions of trees?
Paramahaṁsa: That's just part of nature.
Prabhupāda: Then nature is your father.
Paramahaṁsa: No.
Prabhupāda: You are less than the nature, that you have to accept. Nature has already done. So either you say "nature" or "God," doesn't matter. But you are not bigger. You cannot take the credit.
Paramahaṁsa: No, we are sons of nature, so nature is greater than us.
Prabhupāda: "Sons of nature," that's all right. But why do you take credit, why do you want to take credit more than nature?
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness, that... They have no future. So it is useless, "Keep out." Imagination, concoction, foolishness—this is the basic principle of material civilization. Mūḍhā, that's all. "I am asking to keep out; I do not know how long I shall live here." That he does not think. "I am asking others, keep out." If somebody asks him, "You are asking others to keep out, but when you will be asked to keep out, who will protect you? Is there any protection? Will your sons and grandsons and wife will protect you?"... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, pramatto tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati, dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu ātmaśainyeṣu (SB 2.1.4). He is thinking that "These, my wife, children, and relatives and friends, will protect me not to be thrown out." But that is not possible. He will be thrown out. He will have to be kept out. And that is not by accident. Everyone knows, "Yes." That is not arranged. It is already arranged. Where is the question of accident? It will take place. But paśyann api na paśyati, he is so rascal blind, although he knows, still he forgets. Forgets not. He tries to forget. Paśyann api na paśyati. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Do all these things, but remember Kṛṣṇa. Be attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is your business. And if you do not awaken that consciousness, then whatever you have done, śrama eva hi kevalam: simply waste of time and labor. That he doesn't know. Śrama eva hi kevalam. He has got to work hard for constructing building like this and keep others out and live peacefully. But when he will be kicked out, then all this labor is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the tenant can be easily evicted.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Evicted. At that time he knows the owner. (laughter) When he is kicked out. That is stated also in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Those who are not believing in God, to them God will come one day as death, "Now believe Me. Get out!" Finished. All your pride finished. Your pride, your property, your family, your bank balance, your skyscraper building—all taken away. "Finished. Get out." This is God. Now understand God? To believe or not believe, God will come one day. He will take you, take your everything, and "Get out!" That is God. You believe or not believe. It doesn't matter. The same example, the tenant may not believe the landlord, but when the landlord will come with court's order, "Get out," then you have to go out. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Those who are not believer in God, to them I come as death and take away everything, finished." That one has to believe, "Yes, as sure as death." Then God is sure. You may challenge so long you have got little life for a few years, (laughter) but God will come and drive you away from your present pride, prestigious position, "Get out." So unless one is madman, he cannot say, "There is no God." Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is a madman.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, wouldn't it be better to say he is blind, he is stupid?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the same thing. Mad is the sum total of all stupidity. (laughter) When I say mad, it is the sum total of all kinds of stupidity. Now you can give them prasādam. I think we have occupied their time.
Lt. Mozee: Wouldn't that sort of peace be a precursor to a return to religion? Must we not first have peace?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the difficulty. We do not know the meaning of religion. At the present moment the human society does not know what is the meaning of religion. The meaning of religion is to abide by the laws of God, just like a good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state, of the government. Because we have no understanding of God, therefore we do not know what is the laws of God, and therefore we do not know what is religion. That is the present status of the human society. They are forgetting religion. They take religion as a kind of faith. Faith may be blind faith. Faith is not the real description of religion. Religion means the laws which is given by God, and anyone who follows the laws, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or Muslim. If he follows the laws of God, then he is religious.
Lt. Mozee: Again I say I mean no disrespect, but in India, where the religious customs have been followed for centuries upon centuries, we are seeing a, not a return, but we are seeing a drawing away. We are seeing a drawing away from the spiritual world and the spiritual life in today's society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is due to bad leadership. Otherwise, Indian mass of people, they are fully conscious of God and they try to follow the laws of God, the mass of people. Here even the big, big professor, they do not believe in God, they do not believe in next life. But India, even the poorest man, he knows that "There is God. There is next life. If I commit sinful life I will suffer. If I live piously, then I shall enjoy." Even the low-grade society, social man, he believes it. Still if there is some disagreement, the village people go to the temple for settlement, and the opposite parties will hesitate to speak lies before the temple, still. So in that respect India is still 80 percent religious, 80 percent religious. That is the special privilege of taking birth in India. That is a fact.
Jayatīrtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You are not independent. So if you work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Find out this verse. Why there are varieties of life. One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolish—why? Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000 species of life?
Jayatīrtha: You mentioned several times that those persons who are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but they never leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... That child is killed means it must take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another womb. This is going on. Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life."
Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...but to engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service. Our knowledge in spiritual life and your help, material opulence, combined together, there will be great change in the whole world. Cooperate with us. There is no loss on your part, but there is great benefit to the whole world. Try to convince them. Although they are not very big authority, but still through them, you can approach bigger authorities. (break) ...big churches, no use, no utility. (break) ...speak, andha-kañja-nyāya. Andha-kañja-nyāya, you know that, the lame man and the blind man?
Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: So America is blind, and we are lame. So let us get on the shoulder of the American blind and give him direction, and both will be benefited. The whole world will be benefited. The America, blind, he cannot see where he is going. (chuckles) And for want of money we cannot make progress. So let the Americans take on the shoulder this lame man, and I will give direction, "Go this way. Go this way." Everything will be all right. Andha-kañja-nyāya. (break) ...nice building, churches, there is no use. Take our direction. Everything will be all right. (break) ...take our direction, what is the loss on their part? Hmm? What is the possible loss? Why they will deny to take our direction? (break) (out of car:) Tell them about this andha-kañja-nyāya.
Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda was talking about the fact that the western world is blind and India is lame for lack of money. But by a combination there is very good effect. So if the western world takes us on its shoulders...
Prabhupāda: Especially America.
Jayatīrtha: Especially America. On its shoulders then we can give, Prabhupāda can give direction, and they can provide the resources. America will provide the resources, and we will provide the direction. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...mayor and the police officers, through them, try to approach higher authorities. And what is that? We met yesterday?
Harikesa: The public relations?
Prabhupāda: Ah, public relation. So convince them to..., the Americans should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the shoulder, and because the Americans are blind, we shall give them direction on the shoulder, "Go this way. Go this way." So blind and the lame man combined together will perform a great task. (break) ...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. (break) ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence—everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice. Early morning till night, we are always thinking, "How people will be happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" And they are coming here for rowing boat. You see? How blind they are! The human life, so intelligent life, and they are utilizing for rowing boat. How blind they are! Not a single moment to be wasted and they are simply finding out, "How to waste time?" (break) ...is "Crime, what to do?" "Hippies, what to do?" "Problems, what to do?" Why "What to do?" Here is a direction. Do like this." "No, sir, that I will not do." (break) ...to take photo.
Prabhupāda: No, island is not required. Make a program like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take photos.
Prabhupāda: And if possible, send them ideas and direction. Bhavānanda has gone. (break) ...convince them that they are doing very nice, to their best capacity, but they are doing it blindly. You are very good driver, but if you are a blind man, then how you will drive? You will create disaster. So we can open their eyes so that their good driving capacity will be properly utilized. A good driver, blind, what he will do? Ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Darkness, it will not help. The western method of seeing things—blind eyes. Actually, they are blind. They are trying to see things with microscope. First of all you are blind. What you will see? Microscope, this machine or that machine, but you are blind. That they do not know. (break)
Devotee: What should I do if I'd like to preach more and become free from my family entanglements?
Prabhupāda: Just teach him what to do. Tell him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his ques... What should you do...?
Devotee: I want to preach more and become free from my family entanglement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Jagadīśa is having some preaching programs. So your family is no hindrance. Preaching is not hindered by family, one way or the other.
Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. Why don't you understand? Preaching cannot be checked by anything—if you want to preach. In any circumstances you can preach. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Preaching can be executed by four things: by your life, by your money, by your intelligence, and by your words. You have got so many assets. So you can utilize it for preaching. Dedicate your life. If you think that you are family man, you cannot dedicate twenty-four hours, then earn money and give it to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as other family men, they are earning money. Eh? Is it not? You can earn. In America there is good facility for earning money. They want that you work and take money. So earn money as gṛhastha and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair. If you cannot earn money, then use your intelligence. There are so many intellectual work: publication, going to this officer, that officer. You, intellectually you try. And vācā, by words. If you cannot do anything, go anyone, anywhere and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just offer your obeisances." Finished. So where is the scarcity? You can serve Kṛṣṇa in any capacity-provided you want to serve. And if you want to engage Kṛṣṇa for your service, that is blunder. Then it is blunder. You cannot engage Kṛṣṇa to your service. The everyone is trying to engage Kṛṣṇa for his service. They are going to the church, "O Kṛṣṇa, give us our daily bread," that "You serve me. You give us our daily bread and serve me." And our proposition is, Yaśodāmayī, "Kṛṣṇa, You are playing all day. Come on! Take food first of all." This is service. They are going to Kṛṣṇa for asking daily bread. And here Yaśodāmayī is commanding, "Come here! If You don't eat, You will get lean and thin. Come on." This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is concerned, "How Kṛṣṇa will keep good health?" And we are concerned, "Kṛṣṇa will go to hell. Please supply me food so that I might keep my health good." That is the difference between materialistic and spiritualist. The foolish man does not understand that Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to the elephant, to the ant, and why I shall go to the church for asking my food? It is already there. And our policy is, "Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." We create problem. Otherwise, no problem. Kṛṣṇa has arranged everything. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Just see so many fruits for the birds. They are so sumptuously supplied, they are thrown. Pūrṇam idam (Īśo Invocation). Everything is sufficient. But these rascal blind, they do not know. They are trying to adjust. What adjustment? It is already sufficient. You are misusing that. Sufficient land, sufficient intelligence. Everything is sufficient. They are misusing. In Africa, in Australia, sufficient land, and they are raising cattle to kill them. This is their intelligence. And growing coffee and tea.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco.
Devotee: For money, for profit.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And tobacco.
Prabhupāda: Tobacco, by which... They know tobacco is bad, and they are utilizing time for growing tobacco and smoking tobacco. This is their intelligence. So blind men... Give them intelligence, these rascals. We call therefore only rascals. People are dying for want of food grains, and they are growing tobacco, which smoking, they will go to hell. This is their intelligence. Huh? What do you think?
Satsvarūpa: I agree.
Jaga-jīvana: Is everything done in our movement for preaching? Everything that is done in our movement is done for preaching?
Prabhupāda: Yes. To awaken their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are in dog consciousness; we have to raise them to God consciousness. Don't you see how much they are taking care of the dog? Because they do not know, blind, whether they will be God conscious or dog conscious. So the dog conscious people should be raised to the platform of God conscious. That is preaching. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. These rascals, they do not know the life is meant for understanding God. That they... Ask anyone. Nobody knows. They are so fool. They want to remain dog. The dog is also running; they are also running. And because they can run on by car, they are thinking they are civilized. But the business is running, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the purpose for the running is the same.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eating, sleeping, mating and defending.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...condemn running by car, but utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That we want. If the purpose is same, like dog, then what is the use of running by car? (break) ...by car to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...not after that philosophy, that jagan mithyā brahma satya, no. We say jagat is also satya because brahma satya, the jagat is also satya. It is mithyā because it is improperly utilized. Let it be utilized properly, it is also truth. It is truth actually. You cannot say, "This is a false tree." This is the ignorance. How it is false? But it is being misused. That is false. You cannot misuse anything which is given by God. You should properly utilize it. Then it is truth. And as soon as you misuse it, it is untruth.
Prabhupāda: Nowadays may be different, but I am speaking of the Vedic ideas, that woman in all circumstances, unless the husband is crazy or something like that, mad, or..., in every case the instance is that wife is faithful and subservient to the husband. That is the Vedic culture. Even the husband goes out of home, vānaprastha, the wife also goes with him. When he takes sannyāsa, at that time there is no accompaniment of wife. Otherwise in gṛhastha life and even vānaprastha life, the wife is constant companion and subservient. That is the history of Vedic culture. History, Gāndhārī, because her husband was blind, so when the marriage settlement was done, she was not blind, but she voluntarily became blind by wrapping cloth.
Devotee (2): She remained with the cloth wrapped for her whole life?
Prabhupāda: Whole life.
Devotee (2): Whole life.
Prabhupāda: She voluntarily became blind. And up to the last point of her husband's precarious condition, she remained with him. These are the examples. There are other examples. Damayanti. They became so poor that they had no clothing. So the one cloth divided into two, husband and wife. So these instances are in the Vedic literature, that wife remains always faithful and subservient to the husband. That is their perfection. Now the Americans may not like this idea. That is different thing. But we are speaking of the Vedic culture. And these are the instances, vivid instances. Why Sītā accompanied her husband? And because she accompanied her husband in the jungle, the war between Rāma Rāvaṇa became possible. And it is the advice that "When you go to other countries you should not take your wife." Pathe narī-vinārjitaḥ. Because it may create some trouble. But still, the faithful wife goes with the husband.
Woman: Yesterday I met a devotee from New York who said that there were many people present at the festival from other planets and that you could see them. Is that true?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone can see. If you have eyes, you can see also. But if you have no eyes, therefore you are envious because they have offered a nice motor car. So you have to make your eyes to see. A blind man cannot see. The eyes are to be treated how to see.
Woman: Is this true also with your other senses?
Prabhupāda: Every senses. If you want to see something, you must be trained up how to see. Like a scientist is seeing something through the microscope, and you want to see with naked eyes. How it is possible to see? You must adopt the process to see. Then you can see everything.
Woman: I have just one more question, and that is also from an outsider's point of view. It appears to me that one of the most difficult aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness for someone to accept who's been brought up outside of that point of view is the Deities and the idea that they represent Kṛṣṇa. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, because you are not trained up to see Kṛṣṇa, so Kṛṣṇa kindly appears before you as you can see. You can see wood, stone. You cannot see what is spirit. Even you don't see yourself. You are thinking, "I am this body." But you are spirit soul. You are seeing your father and mother daily, and when the father or mother dies, you cry. Why you are crying? "Now my father has gone." Where is your father gone? He is lying here. Why do you say he is gone? What is that thing which is gone? Why you say, "My father is gone," although lying on the bed? You have seen daily your father. Now you say, "My father is gone." So... But he is lying on the bed. So who has gone? What is your answer?
Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment.
Prof. Hopkins: What is the solution? What is the solution? Devotion to God...
Prabhupāda: First of all you know what is spirit. Then as soon as you know that you are spirit then wherefrom the spirit comes, or wherefrom everything comes? Then it comes to the question of God. And then we understand what is our relationship with God. And then if we act according to that, then it is perfect life.
Prof. Hopkins: So that you would... You would see the Gītā then as a guide to understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "Blind man is leading other blind men."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the jīva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So when the jīva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. (break)
Dharmādhyakṣa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems.
Prabhupāda: What do they define about transcendence?
Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...
Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."
Bahulāśva: So Prabhupāda, you said belief is enough?
Prabhupāda: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good.
Bahulāśva: Blind faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, catur-vidhā bhajante mām...
Jayādvaita: Janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna.
Prabhupāda: Sukṛtinaḥ arjuna. Jñānī... What is called?
Devotee (5): Ārto jijñāsur...
Prabhupāda: Ah. No, this first word, distress, ārtaḥ, ārtaḥ. Artaḥ, arthārthī, jñānī and jijñāsuḥ. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jñānī means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, viśvāsa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.
Devotee (6): It says in the Bhāgavatam...
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that viśvāsa śabde śudṛdha niścaya. Śudṛdha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Śraddhā, śraddhā. Śraddhā means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required.
Paramahaṁsa: Like a child.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Śraddhā, faith, means believing firmly. That is śraddhā, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming...
Prabhupāda: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm.
Bahulāśva: Faith is fixed by knowledge?
Prabhupāda: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like... Yasya deve parā bhaktiḥ yathā deve tathā gurau. So if you have got faith in spiritual master then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith.
Prabhupāda: No.
Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it is also like a child?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.
Paramahaṁsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust?
Prabhupāda: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda, what are the symptoms of purity?
Prabhupāda: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.
Jayādvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad-gītā, all explained and put together so nicely.
Paramahaṁsa: Blind faith is the belief that little...
Prabhupāda: Blind faith, without... That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupāda, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost.
Paramahaṁsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes, blind faith.
Paramahaṁsa: In the wrong thing.
Bahulāśva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.
Prabhupāda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234). By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasāda. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. It begins... The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes, and why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take{īūl prasādam. That's all.
Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain...
Prabhupāda: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me, and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasādam." That's all.
Jayādvaita: They had five thousand dollars worth of faith yesterday in the prasādam.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the śāstra... Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is surprising. How is that? But it is a fact.
Satsvarūpa: Why is it that people are so disinclined to listen to our authority—that they all take the scientists' authority—if it's just one authority or another?
Prabhupāda: Because they are nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha... They cannot. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ, na prapadyante. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna: "Knowledge has been taken away by māyā." (break) ...more you become atheist, the more you become blind. This is the point. (break) ...given this maxim in our Back to Godhead, "Where there is God there is no nescience." (break) ...preaching, back to God. "If you want to know things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead, "Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown, so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this side, he will die.
Prabhupāda: Theory is not faith? Theory is not faith?
Jayādvaita: They say that the theory, it's simply an idea of how it could happen.
Prabhupāda: That is faith.
Jayādvaita: But they don't believe the theory until they think they have sufficient facts.
Prabhupāda: That is faith, I dare say, blind faith.
Rādhā-vallabha: These facts, these theories, are tested. By presenting more and more facts in the light of this theory, either the theory collapses under the new facts or it becomes strengthened. So by this method...
Prabhupāda: What are the facts?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, for example, you may see that living beings are reproducing geometrically. One couple produces two children, those children each produce two children, so in that way it appears that the animal population should be increasing geometrically. And we can see that...
Prabhupāda: Who made that geometric?
Rādhā-vallabha: This is all just going on.
Prabhupāda: Ah, accident. (laughter) That's all.
Brahmānanda: The hospitals here have better facilities than in countries in India.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. It is simply proportion, five upon ten and five millions upon ten million. The proportion is the same. Because the figure is five million over ten million, that does not mean that the proportion is not the same. Put five upon ten or five million for ten mill..., the result is the same. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: ...also create food grains like this with their chemicals. They could do it too.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you produce more and give to India?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, it belongs to us.
Prabhupāda: Why other parts, they will suffer for gain. That's nice. You have made scientific improvement. You produce more and distribute to the poor country. (break) we become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become advance in science and cooperate. That is our proposition. Andha-kañja-nyāya. One is blind; one is lame. So let the lame man be taken by the blind man. He can walk and they... Both their work will be nicely done. That I put this argument always. Andha-kañja-nyāya. You are blind by material advancement, and India has got spiritual advancement, but for want of money they cannot Move. So you take this lame man, you blind, on your shoulder, and cooperation will be good for the whole world. (end)
Prabhupāda: So now the Lord has incarnated in the form of Hare Kṛṣṇa sound to deliver the atheist. The world is full of atheist. Therefore this movement is there.
Professor: It's like the story about the blind men and the elephant, I think. A lot of people know one incarnation and think that that is all of God, and they do not know that that is only one incarnation or is only one manifestation.
Prabhupāda: No, incarnations there are many. Many incarnations. There is a verse there. But Kṛṣṇa is the origin of incarnation. He is the original source of all incarnation. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So as you are teacher of religion, so you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the last year I went to many different colleges and universities. And I could see that these professors are very much argumentative. They like to argue. They like to debate. So I tried to start one debating program so that they could come and they could bring their philosophy. And I told them that I could show them their philosophy and how it was defective from the Bhagavad-gītā. I wanted to know if this was a good program for the universities.
Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?
Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer.
Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa—teacher means brāhmaṇa—and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals.
Harikeśa: They can't even see the root.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their blindness. Andhā.
Brahmānanda: 'Cause they can't see it, they think it's not there.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Brahmānanda: Because they can't see the root, they think it's not there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...house for the last four years. And I went for half an hour; I purchased—without any money. Still, they are so blind, they cannot see the mercy of God. One should imagine that "Yes, there is mercy of God. Otherwise how it is possible?" If they have no eyes to see, they should imagine at least.
Harikeśa: That's why the government thinks that we are being supported. In India they think we are being supported by the...
Prabhupāda: CIA.
Harikeśa: Yes. Because we have so many nice things. Where else could we...
Brahmānanda: They think it is the mercy of the CIA.
Prabhupāda: My Godbrother says-Tīrtha Mahārāja—that American government has given me two crores of rupees. They are supposed to be spiritually advanced, and they are so rascal. And he is the head of Caitanya Matha. Kṛṣṇa said, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham: (BG 9.22) "I take the responsibility of his expenditure." Kṛṣṇa says, and they are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they are thinking, "American government is doing, not Kṛṣṇa." Such fools and rascals, they are head of..., a spiritual head. Karmīs, jñānīs—everyone is envious of our... And they are trying to speculate how to admit: "Where he gets money? Where he gets money?"
Prabhupāda: Well, this is want of knowledge, jñānam.
- vāsudeve bhagavati
- bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
- janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
- jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
- (SB 1.2.7)
If one is engaged in the devotional service of Vasudeva, then he immediately becomes vairāgī—no attachment for material things—and knowledge. But most of these rascals, they are nondevotees. The so-called mahanta, he is not mahanta-mohāndha: "great blind." So that is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to bring everyone to the stage of devotional service to Vāsudeva. Then it will be all right. Other platform will never be successful. Simply show. It is not fact. (break) ...also take it very easily that "I haven't got to do anything. My Guru Mahārāja is there. He will do everything. I can do whatever I like." The Christians are doing like that, that "Jesus Christ will suffer. We indulge in sinful activities. That's all." This is their policy. It is perhaps in our movement only that each and every individual is being trained up. Others they do not do that. "I have made a guru; then my business is finished. Now I can do whatever I like." (To dogs barking:) Hut!
Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility. When you become a big officer of the government, it means you overburdened with responsibility, not this flickering resp... Here the material respons... means it has no use. You are simply wasting time. And here is real responsibility and real life. That I explained to that lady, that "Even if you take respons... what can you do? You cannot do anything." The example I gave, that "You have taken responsibility for your son's disease. He is suffering. You have brought good physician, you have brought good medicine, everything, but what can you do? In spite of your all responsibility, your son dies. Then where is the value of your responsibility?" Do you think simply by bringing a nice physician and nice medicine you can save your son? Then where is your responsibility? Actually you cannot do anything, so what is the use of saying that "I am responsible"? You cannot do anything. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If one blind man says, "I'll take responsibility. You all blind men follow me," so what is the use of this responsibility? He will die and others will die. So what is the meaning of this responsibility? Even if you take as very responsible man, you cannot do anything. That is not possible. You cannot save. Who wants that "My son dies, my father dies, and I'll take them and..."? But one little disease will finish your responsibi... Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So although we can't see it with our material eyes, their position is very precarious.
Prabhupāda: We have no eyes to see. We see through Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa sees, we see. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are not perfect. Our position is that we are not perfect. But we are perfect so long we follow Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Just like I am blind man. I am not perfect. But if you have got eyes, if you take me I follow you. Then I am perfect. Kṛṣṇa assures that "You surrender to Me and I will make you free from all dangers," and we accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Our method is very easy. The child is walking, unable to walk, falling down. The parents say, father says, "My dear child, just catch my hand." Then he's safe. These Māyāvādīs, they go against the verdict of God. God says that "The living entities are My part and parcel," and they say, "I am God." So that is their foolishness. Part and parcel... Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivaṁso jīva-bhutaḥ (BG 15.7). Otherwise why God says, "Surrender unto Me," if you are equal with Him? Why God is asking, "Surrender unto Me"? You are not equal. You are rascal. You are claiming that "I am equal." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. "You surrender unto Me." And this knowledge of surrender comes, Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām: "This rascal is always thinking 'I am God, God, God.' This rascaldom is finished after many, many births, this ignorance." Then he surrenders. How the living entity is equal with God?
Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free. He is jumping here, there. He is thinking, "I am independent," barking, attacking somebody. Oh, he is thinking he is free to do everything. When one comes to this sense, that he is not free, that is beginning of human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Then the question will be that "Why I am not free? What is the reason?" Then that is... Real human life begins. Otherwise he's a dog. Is it correct or not? What do you think? If one is not free and wrongly thinks that he is free, then what is that mentality? A doggish mentality. And if I say, "Yes, you are free. You can think in any way you like. That is correct," then you become more encouraged to become, to remain a fool, to continue. That's all. So we shall go now? That is the defective part of modern civilization. Everyone is thinking, "I am free." Is it not? Everyone.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Cyavana: When you were speaking with those two boys last night, that was the Minister of Youth who was sitting with the High Commissioner. He was appreciating that they were coming to challenge, that they were understanding. They cannot understand their own so-called culture. They have not been able to get the young people here to adopt it. Instead they are trying to imitate the West.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Did you understand the words, "The blind leading the blind"? Do you agree? (break) ...culture, the basic principle is mistaken, bodily concept of life. How it can be perfect? (break) ... world's present so-called culture based on misconception. Therefore it cannot be perfect. Whatever they are doing, it is failure.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can't satisfy anyone. Now people are under the conception that culture means that you can satisfy anything you like, any desire. Therefore there is birth control and so many things. So they are thinking that "If we can satisfy all of our desires, it is very nice culture."
Prabhupāda: But where is satisfaction?
Brahmānanda: They think that unhappiness comes from repression of one's desires.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They think that actually that we're suffering from so many desires, that we must be very poor creatures because we become devotees.
Prabhupāda: So why so many desires? Because one desire is not complete, therefore you desire next. Therefore the process of desiring is defective, and our process is to purify the desires, not to remain in the imperfect platform of desiring, but whatever desire you have got, just purify it. Then it will be satisfied. So desire produced by bodily concept of life will never be satisfied. Therefore some of them are trying to become desireless, the impersonalists. Nirvāṇa.
Prabhupāda: So you can explain what I was talking.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So the idea is that now you have secular state because the religion, as it is being taught today, is seen simply as some kind of dogma that can't be proven, some kind of blind faith. But in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is giving scientific evidence, reason, how the existence of the soul can be proven. Religion means there must be soul. But people don't understand how soul is existing. They think it is simply beyond their conception or comprehension. Kṛṣṇa has made it so reasonable to understand the existence of the soul that any sane man would accept. For example, Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Any person can accept that they had a youthful body, childhood body, and then old man's body. The change of body is always there. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And after this body we can reasonably accept that there is another body. Just as from childhood to youth there is change of body, from youth to old age there is change of body, similarly, old age, death, and then there is another change of body. But in all circumstances I am still the same person. My body is changed, but still I am experiencing that I am the same identity, the same person. So this education is lacking in the universities because, generally speaking, all of the scientists in the universities, they are simply dealing with this body, simply dealing biology, physics, chemistry—simply with the body. So where is the question that this is not science? It is science. It is the science of the soul. When our spiritual master went to Massachusetts Institute of Technology—it is a very well known technological university—he questioned the faculty and students there that "You are the most advanced technological university in the world. Where is that department that tries to understand the difference between a dead body and a living body?" So this is science. You can't say that it's not science. And it should be accepted as science by university professors and taught as such. Otherwise, if we simply turn our back on this philosophy... Kṛṣṇa says, rāja-vidyā: "This is the king of knowledge." This is not some sentimental proposition we are putting forward, but it is the king of knowledge, that the soul is existing, and after this body there will be another body. So real education, therefore... Just like you come to the university. You want to get a better job, not that you go to the university so that you can work an elevator when you come out. You go to the university to increase your standard of living, to have higher standard of living. So real education, similarly, is that you can have higher standard of existence in your next life, not that I come to the university and simply live like animal and then have to be demoted to the body of an animal in my next lifetime. Rather, the real education is how we can be elevated from this human existence to higher existence, or to spiritual, eternal existence. So the purpose of the science of Bhagavad-gītā is just this, that janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). If you understand God in truth, and fact, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: (BG 4.9) you will never take birth again in this material world, but you will go back to the spiritual world, called Vaikuṇṭha in Sanskrit language. Vaikuṇṭha means the spiritual world, the place where there is no repetition of birth and death.
Prabhupāda: No anxiety. No anxiety.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No anxiety. Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is the foundation.
Prof. Olivier: It's the foundation. But we know so little about the foundation. When the rich man in the Bible asked the Lord to send this poor man down to warn his brothers, the Lord said they've had all the prophets all the years and they haven't listened. Any new evidence they will not accept either. I think that we have enough evidences around us. We need not seek more evidences, except I believe, through more direct contact with the workings of the holy spirit itself, which I think is available. But again, which I agree with you, I don't think we have exploited enough. You could use that word advisedly. Because the spirit is there. "It bloweth where it listeth." It is for us to get attuned to that spirit. And now the point is, that we are concerned with: Who is going to do this? There has just been written a book in England, which I haven't read, and I hope to order it, but I've only seen the advertisement, namely, The Biology of God, which takes into consideration the points that you have raised here. Of course, there are a lot of objections to this book, in principle. You know—how can a man try to biologize God, to give Him a physical, scientific being in terms of modern life? But I think in the last book in the Old Testament, Malachi, there is a, when the Lord was complaining about all these people who bring blind animals as a sacrifice or lame animals or weak animals... The poorest in their flock they bring as sacrifices to the Lord. And He said, "It's not sacrifices that I want at all, if you bring this kind. It's obedience. It's truth. It's only truth that brings knowledge. It's truth that I want." But then He goes on to say you must... This is the challenge that you were referring to: how do we open more windows from God or from the spirit of God onto this present world today? Of course, the good Lord is still God. And He uses... (break)
Professor: I include the transmigration of souls and I include everything else, religion and the lot. But when I speak about science in the English language sense, science in this sense, then I have a problem.
Prof. Olivier: Even the German word wissenschaft that we normally use, which covers, as you say, everything—this is not translatable. The word science is...
Prabhupāda: But in Sanskrit there are two words, jñāna and vijñāna. Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. So vijñāna is taken as science. Just like you... Theoretically you know that two hydrogen-oxygen mixed together becomes water. And when you do it practically in the laboratory, that is science, vijñāna. So jñāna-vijñāna-sahitam. In the Bhāgavata it is said, jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad-vijñāna-samanvitaḥ. Knowledge of God should be practical application in life. That is vijñānam. And according to our philosophy, unless one has got perfect knowledge of his self-identification, he remains an animal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The mass of people, he says it doesn't effect them.
Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men—"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people—the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow.
Reporter: My last question: Will you be meeting other spiritual leaders in South Africa?
Prabhupāda: I do not know who is that spiritual leader. Nobody...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We haven't found any really prominent personalities to introduce Prabhupāda to.
Prabhupāda: But one spiritual leader is there, Swami Sahajananda.
Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swamiji, then he starts off all over again?
Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to go back to the temple now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Time is up? Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk if you like.
Prabhupāda: No, what time we have to go?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, we're going to have class at the temple.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You have got car?
Indians: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you can come to the temple.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So one who is looking for material happiness...
Prabhupāda: He's a fool.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...it is very difficult for them to approach guru.
Prabhupāda: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool.
Harikeśa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying.
Prabhupāda: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool.
Harikeśa: They all tell me what a great time...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that "This is a place of suffering," and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool.
Prabhupāda: Then you are a rascal. Verbal analogy is proof. A small quantity, a small quantity producing; large quantity, large quantity producing. Where is the verbal? This is practical.
Harikeśa: But that's assuming that God has a body, or there even is a God.
Prabhupāda: Huh? But that is... You are blind rascal, you cannot see. That does not mean that He has no body. You cannot see even the president's body here. That means president has no body? You rascal, you cannot understand. Because you cannot see the president's body, you cannot say, "No, the president is bodyless." That is your defect. You become qualified to see the president. You'll see he has got a body. Those who are not qualified to see him, they can say that he has not body. But why he has no body? śāstra says. So if you remain fools and rascals, that is another thing, but He has a body. Iśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda, Brahmā is saying. Why He has no body? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means body.
Prabhupāda: You do not know; therefore you have to learn. If you want to remain rascal, fool, and still you want to know, that is not possible. You have to know from the real source. Then you'll know. But if you keep yourself in the rascal platform, then how you will know? Just like you have to go to a school to learn things. So how you can learn at home? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to go in order to understand that science. So how do you argue, keeping yourself in darkness? In darkness you cannot see anything. "Oh, I do not see anything; therefore there is nothing." Is that very good reason? You are blind, you cannot see the darkness. That is another thing. But things are there. You make your eyes operated and manifest your vision. Then you'll see. Therefore, ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. Everyone is blind, in darkness. He cannot see anything. So one who opens the eyes, jñānāñjana-śalākayā, by the torch of knowledge, he is guru. This is description of guru. If you are blind and have a blind guru, that is no use. Guru means who is not blind. I may be blind. Then that will be effective. This is no reason, "I cannot see." What you are? You can see? You cannot see even the president, and you want to see God without being qualified? This is laymans', rascal's reason, "I cannot see. I do not see." What you are? What you can see? You do not first of all evaluate what is your position, and you want to see something. The formula is there. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). One who has developed love of God is always seeing God. So where is that qualification? You are not lover of God, you are lover of dog, so how you can see God? You can see dog. That's all. Go on seeing dog perpetually. And at the time of death see the dog and become a dog. That's all.
Yaśomatīnandana: "It is because of my past karma."
Prabhupāda: Then you must first of all rectify your karma. Then talk. Past karma, you have got this body. Therefore you must rectify your karma. Karmano 'pi bodhavyam akarmana. You must know what is karma, what is akarma, what is vikarma. That is knowledge. If you remain blind about your karma and by nature's way you get different body, then what is your knowledge? Just like if you go to a doctor, he says that "Due to this infection, you have got this disease," so you know it so that in future you will be very careful. That is knowledge." I do not know why I have got this disease, and still, I do not know what further it is going on"—that is ignorance. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. To remain in ignorance, that is the greatest sin. Tamasi ma: "Don't remain in darkness." That is Vedic injunction, "Enlighten yourself." Jyotir gama: "Go to the light." But where is your light, you do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Karmīs say, "Ignorance is bliss."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Yes. That is dog's bliss.
Yaśomatīnandana: Then we say that, this verse, that...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "If you know that you are not this body, then even if you kill all these people, then you are not affected by the reaction."
Prabhupāda: But kill by Kṛṣṇa's order, not whimsically.
Prabhupāda: They will create nuisance because there is no sense. It is better nuisance. Who is coming to make sense, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Nobody is coming. Then nuisance is better than no sense. (Bengali:) Naya mameche khana mama baba:(?) "To possess no mama, it is better to have a blind mama." So they are blind mama. That's all right. Where is the real mama? All mamas are...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: Mama means mother's brother.
Dr. Patel: No, but here in Gujarat... (Gujarati) Mama means he is a fool. (break)
Devotee (2): Now is not nice. The fruit is not nice.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Devotee (2): You speak in Italian.
Indian man (6): I speak little only.
Devotee (2): Speak in Italian.
Dr. Patel: Don't worry. (break)
Prabhupāda: If he comes to your house you must receive him properly. Gṛhaṁ satrum api praptam viśvas tam akuto-bhayam. (end)
Brahmānanda: Scientists will say that "We cannot find this jīva particle in our atom-smasher machines."
Prabhupāda: But you are blind. Therefore you have to hear. A blind man is going forward towards the sea, so one who has got eyes, he'll say, "Don't go there." Then, if you go, go to the sea, you'll die. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Because you are blind, therefore I am giving you the information. You take it. You don't go there. You'll not find.
Brahmānanda: But they do not think that they are blind.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease. That is the disease. A diseased man never thinks that he is diseased. He thinks, "I am quite all right." But a physician will say, "Oh, no, no, you are diseased." He says, "I am quite all right." Cancer. And then, after few days, finished. They do not know that "Why I am dying?" They think death is natural. But Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They have no brain to inquire that here is information that even after the destruction, the jīva does not die. But he does not inquire. He says, "Death is natural. Let me die." This is blind. They agree to die. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) "There is no death even after destruction..." They will not inquire about this. So blind. So blind. This should be inquiry, that "If it is a fact that even after destruction of the body I do not die, then what is that position?" That inquiry is also not there. They are so fool. That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) Bhelpuri? Very popular. Yes. Picnic.
Devotee (3): (break) You were speaking about the blind person who is thinking that he can see. He is in illusion. How can we best convince him that he is not able to see?
Prabhupāda: You have to convince him that "Your eyes are imperfect." Then you can tell, "Just close your eyes. Can you see the eyelid? It closes, but you cannot see. Why? You have got eyes. When there is some particle in the eye, so close and find out where is the particle. Why making this way, this way, this way? So what is the value of your eyes? This is the proof. You cannot see even your eyelids. So why do... Why you are so much proud of seeing?" Is it not?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is conviction. He can say that "I cannot see on account of distant place, the planet," but you see the nearest. So you cannot see distant place things and you cannot see nearest. Then what is the value of your eyes? That means you can see only under certain condition. So condition is offered by somebody else. Therefore you are conditioned. Your seeing is conditioned, because it is not absolute. So how do you believe your eyes? Hm?
Devotee (3): The vision of the eyes is imperfect. We have to see by intelligence, from the authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not intelligence; that is fact. Intelligence you should have that "However I can perceive by the senses, the senses being imperfect, all our perceptions are imperfect." That is intelligence.
Prabhupāda: That is the position. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Girirāja: Then he asked him about the future.
Prabhupāda: Future is darkness because these are scientists. He doesn't know; still, he is scientist. Then what is the future? Future is darkness, because a person who doesn't know, he has become leader. The same thing, andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a blind man, he becomes the leader of other blind men...
Devotee (2): Actually it's sad that if someone says there is no God then that means that they...
Prabhupāda: He's a dog.
Devotee (2): He's a dog.
Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Anyone who says there is no God, then he, immediately he's a dog. That's all.
Yaśomatīnandana: No more words.
Prabhupāda: No more words. He is immediately a dog. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Things which one does not know, he should not try to cheat others by placing some untruth.
Dr. Patel: It is like five blind men seeing an elephant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you should not give the conclusion that "Elephant is like..."
Dr. Patel: Then we don't accept... It is very difficult to know the whole truth by any one of us.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore our process is upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. One has seen the truth. Not these rascals. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Darśinaḥ means who has actually seen. There is no change. The advice is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevaya (BG 4.34). These are the quotes. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Not that theoretical. Tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to go there. Then you will get knowledge. A blind man goes to another blind man. What is the profit? No profit.
Dr. Patel: Andhena andha-niyataḥ.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ah. Andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man must go to a man who has got eyes, who has seen. Then that is right knowledge. Now we are presenting this book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Let anyone come and challenge. Let anyone come. We have got many scientists. They will talk. What is the value of speculation?
Dr. Patel: I think some scientists have talked nonsense before you, so you are... (laughs) All scientists are not like that, sir. (end)
Harikeśa: So faith in knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge means received from the superior. Like the child gets knowledge from the father. That kind of faith is required. If the child does not believe the statement of father and mother, he cannot make any progress. If the child does not believe the statement of mother, he does not know who is his father. So there must be faith, faith in the right person. Then it is all right. If you have got faith in the person who has got eyes to lead you, then he will help you to cross the road. And if you put your faith to another blind man like you, then it will cause disaster. Faith is required, but to the right person. Then it will be all right. You know that one barber is honest: then you can make your neck like this and he is with a sharpened razor. But you have faith that "He will not cut my throat; he will shave me." This is faith. And if you do not know him and if you put your neck like this and if he is a rogue, he will cut your throat. That's all. The same faith, if you put it to the right person, you become cleansed, shaved, and the same faith put in the wrong person—your throat is cut off. So you must know where to put the faith. So our Vedic injunction is: "Put your faith to the brahma-nistam, one who is God-realized." Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-paniḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam: (MU 1.2.12) "One who has full knowledge in the Vedas and firmly fixed up in Brahman, God, you put your faith there." Otherwise there will be disaster. Right faith. (break) ...you call Prabhakara?
Tejās: I called him on the phone.
Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom. Again rascaldom.
Harikeśa: Yes, but just think of what we've already done. We've made new skin.
Prabhupāda: What you have done? What you have done? A man... A man is...
Harikeśa: I tell you, we've made new skin. If somebody gets burned we can put new skin on.
Prabhupāda: A man, when he is blind, what you can do? You can simply make some experiment. Then you say, "We tried. We could not do it."
Harikeśa: Ah, but now we're putting in new eyeballs.
Prabhupāda: That cannot see. (laughter) That is another... So how they are bluffing, just see.
Harikeśa: In Russia they've made dogs with two heads. They've put another head on a dog in Russia, and now the dog has two heads.
Tejās: Really?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, give us free.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a huge press.
Haṁsadūta: We can make a wager with them. If it doesn't end, then they have to surrender their press.
Prabhupāda: How much they are in darkness, and they are making propaganda, "Awake." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... One blind man is awakening other blind men. (break) ...kalākendra.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the kendras are supported by businessmen. They would much rather support a kalākendra rather than the temple because they think...
Prabhupāda: Temple is useless now. You see, Nanda has spent so much money in that Kurukṣetra, and not a single temple. You see?
Indian man (1): There is no temple in Kurukṣetra where they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa like we are worshiping. There is no temple.
Harikeśa: The Gauḍīya Math?
Indian man (1): Even they can't worship as we are worshiping.
Prabhupāda: How they can worship? The worship is done by devotee. Unless you create devotee, where is the question of worshiping? Without devotee it is idol worship. There is no life. And without life, how can you pull on artificially? Aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-rañjanam. Which way I shall go?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Go to the left or... Left. (break)
Harikeśa: In the back of that Awake magazine there was one little article that said that this one teacher in one college was doing yoga. He locked himself up in his room and went into a yogic trance, and they finally broke into his room two days later and found him in the same position but dead. So then they say that because he was in yogic trance that his heart was going too slow to give sufficient blood to the body, so he died.
Prabhupāda: So by yoga practice he died.
Viśāla: I'm sorry. I will see to that...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viśāla: Your Divine Grace. That is my fault.
Prabhupāda: Why there is water? This water means the shoes, dirt, it will be dirty. So you have no eyes to see?
Viśāla: I am blind. I am sorry. I will see that it is cleaned for you.
Prabhupāda: Then become with eyes. Simply praying, what you will do? Do something practical.
Harikeśa: This is the argument people always throw against us. "Simply praying, what will you do? Do something practical." They say this all the time.
Prabhupāda: Everyone will say that.
Devotee or Vraja-vāsī: Haribol!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So they are guests. They are coming. Kṛṣṇa says everything practical. He never says that "You press your nose and everything will come." He never said like that. "You become a yogi by pressing your nose, and keep your head downward, and then you'll become perfect and everything will come." He never says. And Arjuna also never accepts anything impractical. That is Bhagavad-gītā. As soon as Kṛṣṇa said that "You practice yoga by this way " immediately Kṛṣṇa said "My dear Kṛṣṇa it is not possible, for me. I cannot control my mind." Vāyor eva suduskara. "It is impossible as to control the air." If somebody says, "I shall control the air..." So these things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, all practical. Kṛṣṇa was accepted the Supreme Lord by His practical instruction and practical features. They are not following Kṛṣṇa themselves also. That is the difficulty. (break) What is going on here? (Break) Private.
Prabhupāda: So who, who put all this energy there? Where from nitrogen came?
Jñāna: That they don't know.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know, something, and they are speaking on the subject matter. Is it not nonsense?
Harikeśa: We know there's no life on the sun because we can look at a fire here and we see there's no life.
Prabhupāda: But you are blind. You have no eyes to see.
Harikeśa: Well we have our instruments and we look through...
Prabhupāda: So what is the use of it? Anything made by rascal, is that perfect?
Harikeśa: Well it's better than some mythological book!
Prabhupāda: No, book also, you write book and you want to believe, others your book. That is also book. Why do you write scientific book?
Harikeśa: Well they're proven, those other books...
Prabhupāda: What is proven? You cannot say what is the chemical there, wherefrom came. Is that proof? "We cannot say." Is that proof?
Harikeśa: Well we know how they interact. We may not know how they got here but we know what they do once they are here.
Prabhupāda: No... Knowledge means to find out the source. That is knowledge. Where from it comes. There is a good example we studied in our childhood. A child was very intelligent so he was beating on a drum, so he was very much inquisitive, "Where from the sound is coming?" Then he cut the surface... (laughing) That is intelligence. Inquisitive... where from the sound is coming? Although it was childish but that is innate intelligence.
Prabhupāda: "Why he is not silent?" Kṛṣṇa is not silent. Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Why you should be silent when I challenge you like this. He said, he could not answer. This is going on. So many things they are doing, if they are challenged, they cannot answer. You were present? I told him, "Why silent? Kṛṣṇa is not silent. He says continually, Bhagavān uvāca; page after page, and he's saying "Why he should silent?" He gave me the information that Brahman was silent and anyone who would go to him, he would remain silent and the message would be transferred.
Bhāgavata: Rajneesh says the same thing. He says that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna did not speak, Kṛṣṇa simply looked at Arjuna and Arjuna understood. But in order for Dhṛtarāṣṭra to understand, because he was blind, Sañjaya is speaking and he is explaining everything and Vyāsa has written down what Sañjaya has explained. This is, that is what Rajneesh says like that. So why does Sañjaya say Bhagavān uvāca?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sañjaya heard, then he said?
Bhāgavata: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, then Kṛṣṇa is speaking, otherwise how he heard? Hm? This nonsense is going on. Everywhere, it is very difficult position. So many rascals. And we have to push on our movement through so many obstacles, but still we are going on, that is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Otherwise we are simply meeting with obstacles. What can be done? We have to go, forward. I, I met in... same idea! Impersonalism, bogus thought and no clear idea.
Dr. Patel: ...kaunteya mukta-saṅga samācara.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. The māyāvādī philosophers, they are taking because the senses are creating so much trouble, material existence, finish this-śūnyavādi. But that will not solve the problem. Problem will be solved that you keep your eyes. You don't require to finish it, but cure it. Just like you medical man. If one is blind out of cataract, you don't say that you pluck it, the eye, and throw it. No. "Please cure it and you'll be able to see." This is the difference between māyāvādī philosopher and Vaiṣṇava philosopher. They want to pluck it out, make it zero, śūnyavāda.
Dr. Patel: Śūnyavāda.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the philosophy. Śūnyavādī means they want to make it zero. Your are troubling, you have got so much trouble with your eyes: don't bother, pluck it out! This is their philosophy. And our philosophy is, "No, there is no need of plucking out. Just cure it and you'll see." That is...
Dr. Patel: That is what the Kaṭhopaniṣad teaches us.
Prabhupāda: Every Vedic scripture will advise you. You take this Upaniṣad or that Upaniṣad; the ultimate is Gitopaniṣad. The final, Gitopaniṣad. Yes, Gītā is Upaniṣad.
Prabhupāda: And.. Not post-dated! That is real check, but he does not know. He refuses real check. That is not post-dated; it is real check.
Harikeśa: Well, they might say that we're always...
Prabhupāda: They might say, that is another thing. (Hindi conversation with man about blind leading the blind)
Lokanātha: (break) ...body is finished, everything is finished.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Lokanātha: When body is finished, everything is finished, so why...
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; that is their folly. If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything is finished, everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, not any so-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. What do they say about this statement of Kṛṣṇa, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, that when your body is finished you are not finished?
| Page Title: | Blind (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 12 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=146, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 146 |