Expressions researched:
"avatara"
|"avatara's"
|"avataras"
|"avatari"
Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, has there been an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa outside India, somewhere else in another part of the world? Or does He always comes in India?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaktyāveṣa avatāra, somebody empowered by Him, not Kṛṣṇa Himself. Just like Christ. Christ is also empowered incarnation. Śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Mohammed is also. Anyone who is preaching about God is empowered incarnation. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhi kṛṣṇa nāma-pracāra. That is there in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. So in the dictionary it is stated, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god." He is not a Hindu god; He is God. But He appeared in India. He remained in the Vedic culture. Lord Buddha was also Hindu. And he was in Vedic culture. Later on he spread his own mission. That is also Hindu culture, ahiṁsā, nonviolence. Lord Buddha... keśava dhṛta-buddha. The same Kṛṣṇa, His powerful avatāra, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We offer our prayers to Lord Buddha. Christ was also for twelve years in India. He... Christ, the word Christ and kristo, there is similarity. He also propagated love of God. That is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every, at least, religious sect... I don't say others, nonreligious or agnostic. There are Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, Sikhs, or any religious system, they have accepted that there is God, Supreme Truth.
Yogi Bhajan: No, there is one fundamental thing which this movement may not know. In Dasan Grantha, Guru Govind Singh wrote down Kṛṣṇa avatāra.
Prabhupāda: Avatāra...
Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa avatāra is in his own poetry. It is about Lord Kṛṣṇa. If somebody of these people who know Sanskrit and who know guru-mukhi can translate that part...
Prabhupāda: No, translate or not translate, we have already accept Kṛṣṇa God. So if Guru Nanak has described Him as God, that's all right. Then if Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by Guru Nanak, and Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by us, why not put this God, one God?
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. One God is all right. That everybody will agree. But everybody...
Prabhupāda: By that time he may be finished.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have heard he's a chain smoker.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And the Marwaris are after him, "avatāra." He is called "līlā-avatāra." Whatever he does, it is līlā. Smoking is also "līlā." (break) ...these cottages?
Dhanañjaya: Some sādhus live here.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Vṛndāvana resident: Jaya Sītā-Rāma!
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) ...Bon Mahārāja's land?
Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old. How it is possible in a material body?
Dr. Patel: So all the avatāras of God, they come with a controlling...
Prabhupāda: Ātma-māyā.
Dr. Patel: Controlling.
Harikeśa: They also have this Noah and his ark thing, where all the earth became covered with water.
Prabhupāda: Devastation.
Harikeśa: It's like a Matsya avatāra.
Prabhupāda: So that is acceptable. Description may be little different. That doesn’t matter. But God is the origin. Vedānta-sūtra also says, janmādy asya yataḥ, that "Absolute Truth is that from where everything comes." And the Bible, it is said, "God created this earth." So that is acceptable. Then Darwin says that all of a sudden a man was created. Wherefrom it came out? What is the first creation according to Darwin?
Prabhupāda: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhāgavata.
Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhāgavata-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhāgavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatāra.
Prabhupāda: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.
Prabhupāda: All statues are crying here.
Acyutānanda: This is Annie Besant.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...avatāra here, and she also came from Ireland to become avatāra here.
Acyutānanda: I heard how she became interested in the Gītā. She was Christian, and her infant died. So she asked priests, "Where will this soul go, to heaven or hell? And why? Because he hasn't done anything." So she was never satisfied with their answers. So then she heard that there is transmigration of the soul. Then she became interested in the Gītā, India.
Prabhupāda: So that is not your rascal's imagination. It is spoken by the Lord Himself. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. He is not rascal like you, that He will say something which is mistaken.
Acyutānanda: No, that is only during His avatāra He says that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He says like that; we have to accept it. Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
Acyutānanda: In the lower stage.
Acyutānanda: There cannot be anything in between.
Prabhupāda: Then you don't accept Bhagavad-gītā.
Acyutānanda: We also accept. During avatāra these things may go on, but actually...
Yaśodānandana: Ultimately everything will become one. The jīvātmā will become one with the Paramātmā. The Advaitavādī...
Prabhupāda: It is already one. That is Viśiṣṭādvaitavāda.
Jayapatākā: I... In the last...
Prabhupāda: Daśāvatāra.
Jayapatākā: Fifty-three avatāras.
Prabhupāda: Fifty-three?
Jayapatākā: Yes, I don't..., he..., fifty-three, know why.
Prabhupāda: How many avatāras are there mentioned in the Bhāgavata?
Hari-śauri: About twenty-six or something like that.
Jayapatākā: Twenty-five, twenty-six.
Prabhupāda: Because they have no education. The guru's duty is to give them education; the sannyāsī's duty is to give.... They do not give. They say, "Yes, you are all right. Give me some money." That's all. That they go: "I am avatāra, I am this, I am that," that's all. And he is.... He return (indistinct) to darkness. That's all. (break) ...they used to discover, whole method is finished.
Prabhupāda: He can come in any form He likes, not particularly as Lord Buddha. He's coming as fish, He's coming as tortoise, He's coming as boar, so why as Lord Buddha?
Madhusūdana: But you explain that Lord Buddha is not viṣṇu-tattva, but that He is śakty-āveśa-avatāra.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the śakti is Kṛṣṇa. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. The śakti, energy, and the energetic, they're identical.
Duryodhana-guru: But sometimes also the Supreme Lord comes Himself as śakty-āveśa-avatāra.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Duryodhana-guru: Sākṣāt variety.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hope, last hope is to kill them (makes loud sound with hand or instrument).
Devotee: Chopping off their...
Prabhupāda: Kalki-avatāra. No more teacher, saintly. With sword, cut. Finish. Wholesale massacre. Being killed by God, they get salvation.
Bahulāśva: Even for doing nothing.
Bharadvāja: What kind of salvation?
Prabhupāda: Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and do not make any compromise and push on—in this way, I have given you instruction, it will never stop; it will go on. It will never stop. At least for ten thousand years it will go on. That is your... (indistinct) And this movement is meant for these fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class men. Not this movement is fourth class, fifth class. They are so fallen that they cannot be counted even third class, fourth class-tenth-class of men. Deliver them. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's incarnation is for delivering these classes of men. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never meant to start this movement for high-class brāhmaṇas, sages, saintly persons—no. This class of men. For the all fallen. Don't be disappointed, go on, go on. Stick to the principles. When there was no response, I did not know where to live, where to eat. Sometimes at Dr. Mishra's, sometimes with some friend somewhere. Where to live. And I was going to inquire the shipping company when the next ship returning to India. Still I was renewing my visa: "Let us hope. Let us hope." In this way, we started Second Avenue in month of July, I think?
Prabhupāda: There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupāda: Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat (Bs. 5.39). Rāma is avatāra and Kṛṣṇa is svayaṁ Bhagavān. There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: What would you classify as demigods, then?
Prabhupāda: He is coming from spiritual planets. He is authorized representative of Kṛṣṇa, we accept him as śaktyāveśa-avatāra. So I was invited in some priestly meeting in Melbourne, they asked me the question, "What is your opinion of Christ?" So I said "He's our guru." (laughter) Actually, we accept him as our guru. He's preaching God's message; he's Vaiṣṇava. Anyone who accepts God, he's Vaiṣṇava. He was explaining kingdom of God, God. So according to time, circumstances, audience... Now we can just imagine what kind of people he had to deal with, that his commandment is "Thou shall not kill." Then understand how much they were accustomed to killing. So what kind of men they were? And not only that, in spite of hearing his instruction "Thou shall not kill," they killed him first. So what kind of men they were, just imagine. He said, "Thou shall not kill," and they decided, "We shall kill you first." So this class of men he had to deal with.
Prabhupāda: They're all viṣṇu-tattva. Viṣṇu-sahasra-nāma-stotra.
Indian man: Because many people... At least among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Mahā-Viṣṇu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is only one avatāra of His. And I try to...
Prabhupāda: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Hari-śauri: First volume?
Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. (to Indian man:) (Hindi?) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. Now you have got it?
Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says, "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say, 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of Bhāgavatam, then that argument has no value.
Indian man: That's where the problem in India is. Everyone is saying God is Mahā-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras, and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa... If one accepts the authority of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām. Find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: This is magic.
Hari-śauri: Still, even if he can do those things, it's only mystic siddhi. That doesn't mean to say he's God or an avatāra or anything. But these people are so foolish they think anybody with a little magic, he must be avatāra.
Pradyumna: They worship him as God. "Bhagavan Sai Baba."
Prabhupāda: Anyway, we must bring this man charges. "Ungodly face."
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Jugglery.
Indian man: No avatāra has declared so far that "I'm avatāra."
Prabhupāda: He is... What is called avatāra? He has no, nothing on the śāstra basically. And anyone who has no śāstra basics, he's useless. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). He can cheat so many fools and rascals, it has no meaning. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about this kind of guru. They have been condemned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think you'll find out at the end of the Twenty-fourth Chapter, Eighth Canto. They have been condemned. (break) Now what is the benefit? From rational point of view, suppose he can manufacture gold. That is his jugglery. Eh? He can manufacture some gold? So far I have heard. I've not seen.
Prabhupāda: The rascal.
Hari-śauri: This is... And then the next part's even worse. "For the doubting or confused minority, to which section I then belonged, Swamiji has this message. "Those who want to secure pearls from the sea have to dive deep to fetch them. It does not help them to dabble among the shallow waves near the shore and say that the sea has no pearls and that all stories about them are false. Likewise, if a person wants to secure the love and grace of the avatāra he must also dive deep and get submerged in Sai Baba. Then only will he become one with me and carry me in his innermost heart."
Prabhupāda: Everyone can say like that. What you have done as God? God is an Indian. Making things very complicated.
Pradyumna: This says, "God is an Indian." Putaparti. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatāra..."
Prabhupāda: Putaparti? What is that?
Pradyumna: Putaparti is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatāra rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatāra, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' "
Prabhupāda: So, to whom we shall address this letter?
Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine.
Prabhupāda: He says that "I'm avatāra." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he, at Bombay?
Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Putaparti or in Bangalore.
Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take..."
Prabhupāda: No, no. What he has written.
Pradyumna: "In my present avatāra I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity."
Prabhupāda: So you have claimed to... What is that? Again read it.
Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity."
Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote and then the editor, the writer is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatāra concept which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to say..."
Prabhupāda: That is the editor's.
Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Purāṇas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills. To Baba's devotees, the avatāra has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, puruṣa and deva, simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe..."
Prabhupāda: So?
Pradyumna: Here he says, "The mission of the present avatāra is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and..."
Prabhupāda: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say "Well, if an avatāra comes if he must show all kinds of great opulences and powers, then he says sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared He didn't show viśvarūpa or..."
Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee. Not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga-nāgarī. That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is incarnation. You are also. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). You have not read Bhagavad-gītā? Any living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like this child is the part and parcel of his father, you are part and parcel of your father. Similarly, every one of us, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.
Boy: Is the sun-god an avatāra?
Prabhupāda: Any god or dog, anyone is part and parcel. This is our land? No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals. Therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes. That's all.
Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the daśa-avatāra.
Prabhupāda: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value.
Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also!
Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa-avatāra...
Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra.
Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I can look?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Guest (1): The daśa-avatāras, that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally...
Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I agree? Because there is no such thing in the śāstra. Is there word, any word, in the whole Bhagavad-gītā, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā?
Indian man: No, but what Ramakrishna Paramahaṁsa...
Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna, how he become paramahaṁsa if he does not know the śāstra? That is the difficulty. Everyone becoming self-made guru, self-made avatāra, self-made saint. That is the difficulty. Without any reference to the authentic śāstra.
Indian man: So it's a very revealing thing, you deny Ramakrishna Paramahaṁsa...
Prabhupāda: I don't deny. You accept, you accept. My point is unless it is authoritatively mentioned in the śāstra, we reject.
Prabhupāda: This education is lacking throughout the whole world, and we have started this movement to give this education, and people are against. That means they have become so fallen that they cannot even take up right knowledge. The same proverb: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we have to struggle against this darkness, but we have to do it. This is our mission. We cannot stop it. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. People are kept in darkness, and... That is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Kṛṣṇa's mission actually. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When people are misguided," tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "at that time I come down." So the whole world is misguided on this bodily concept of life, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means Kṛṣṇa has come down in the shape of this movement. That is the real fact. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa kali-kāle avatāra. "In the Kali-yuga Kṛṣṇa is incarnated in the form of His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in this age... That... Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). This is the injunction of the śāstras. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya.
Prabhupāda: Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained-guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain...
Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise they will not be... All avatāras behave like common men.
Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict... A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.
Indian (3): Guru's chastise is the mercy.
Prabhupāda: ...day one Hindi gentleman came. He presented a picture, India's map, and all the whole India is full of avatāras: Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, this, that. This is India.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (2): Brahman you consider Kṛṣṇa. But He is, of course... He was incarnate. He was one of the avatāras.
Prabhupāda: That is your opinion. That is not...
Prabhupāda: This is the test. Guru... The supreme guru is Kṛṣṇa, and anyone canvasses for Kṛṣṇa, he is guru, guru's represent... Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya. That guru will never say that "Kṛṣṇa is dead and gone. I am now guru. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am avatāra." That is rascaldom. So if you want such rascal, then you'll be cheated. (aside:) Who is bringing prasāda? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Everything is there. Read Bhagavad-gītā very carefully. Don't misinterpret. That has killed our culture. They do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and they stand: "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. Even recently I had been in Gandhi's aśrama. It is a desert. He was student of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. Vinobhaji also never teaches Kṛṣṇa, but he's a Gītā-pravacana. What Gītā-pravacana without Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is doing that, Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. What is that Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: That is already there. We have to make little research. It, already there. There are books, Āyurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatāra, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu... No. We are prepared to take you also. Why not? It is not difficult. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when accepted Jagāi-Mādhāi, so Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So the evidence is not that, by words. But evidence... So how? How He accepted? When Jagāi-Mādhāi, after injuring Nityānanda, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very angry that "I shall kill them!" So at that time Nityānanda begged, "Sir, You have promised not to take weapon in this avatāra. So excuse them." So as soon Nityānanda Prabhu said like that, both the brothers fell down on the feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "Sir. Excuse us. We have done wrong. So please deliver us. We are most sinful." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You are sinful. That is not disqualification. But if you want My āśraya, then you stop this sinful life. No more. Whatever you have done, that's all right. I excuse you. But no more." So they said, āra nare bāp: "Bas, whatever we have done." So this is wanted. But if we continue to take shelter of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or His representative, at the same time continue our sinful activities, that is not desirable.
Satsvarūpa: I've given that argument, and people have said back, "Oh, he didn't say he was God." They say... He said that...
Prabhupāda: No, you are advertising, "Ramakrishna Avatara." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." Everyone is God—then why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of your wife, your prostitute. Then you are also devotee because everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee because he's devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search out another God? Hm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with your prostitute, your dog. (pause-talking in background) That Dr. Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: It is para-upakāra. So always remember this fact, that they are..., the whole world is being controlled by āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, atheist class of men, and people are suffering everywhere. But Kṛṣṇa also descends when such condition prevailing. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So now Kṛṣṇa has descended in His name. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa-avatāra. So try to do some good to the society. You have got a great mission and don't deviate. Try to... And Kṛṣṇa will give you all help. So, but always keep in mind that this civilization is a wrong civilization. Wrong civilization. It is not quite civil. What do you think? In Hong Kong I have seen. People are living so wretchedly.
Devotee (1): They keep iron gates in front of the doors. When you knock on the doors, and they open the doors, and they just become very afraid and they slam the door right in your face.
Prabhupāda: First of all become Christian, that you are following all the ten commandments. "Judge not others lest you be judged."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His second question is, "Considering that the Bible describes Jesus as the savior of the people of God, not only of Israel but of every man's sins, does it not minimize his actual position to say that he is simply an avatāra, and does it not contradict the teachings of the Bible...?" First of all he says isn't that minimizing him to say that he's an avatāra?
Prabhupāda: We accept him as avatāra, śaktyāveśa-avatāra, empowered incarnation of God. That we accept.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He says, "Like any other revealed scripture, the Bible's teachings are absolute, but are they to be understood literally or symbolically, and are they applicable for all men?"
Prabhupāda: Literally, not symbolically.
Prabhupāda: I think due to Bhavānanda Mahārāja. He is taking care.
Guru dāsa: Then he should always be with you.
Prabhupāda: I have no objection. He is good preacher in Bengal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is famous as an avatāra there. They say that there is three avatāras of the age. One newspaper reporter reported that there are three avatāras of this age. First one is...
Bhavānanda: Mao Tse Tung of China, Satya Sai Baba from the South...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Bhavānanda Goswami of Māyāpur. (laughter)
Bhavānanda: (laughing) I was an avatāra.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I have seen practically, even if they don't regard him as an avatāra, I was amazed, Prabhupāda, that people come and they ask, "Where's Bhavānanda Goswami?" And they look everywhere for him, and then they all bow down. He is famous. Simply because he performed strict cātur-māsya, so many people took notice.
Guru dāsa: He has descended to give you massage. (Bhavānanda is massaging Śrīla Prabhupāda?) (laughter)
Bhavānanda: I think this side is no longer sore.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have decided last night that when Upendra comes... We sent them a telegram. I'll train him up for a few days and then...
Prabhupāda: That's all, that's all. That will be very nice. So call him. You are now popular in Bengal, avatāra. (laughter)
Gargamuni: That's common in Bengal. I was seeing in Bangladesh many men were bringing this pamphlet saying, "Oh, this man is the incarnation of Nitāi and Gaura. This man is the incarnation of..."
Prabhupāda: Very good. Keep that position. When you meet them, "No, no, I am servant of Nitāi-Gaura."
Gargamuni: No, that wasn't referring to myself. They were bringing pamphlets of others.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Gargamuni: I was trying to point out that it is common to set up some avatāra, some man as avatāra. They also called us Gaura-Nitāi in Bangladesh, myself and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, because they never saw white sādhus before in their lives. And because of our light complexion, they referred us to as Gaura-Nitāi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So ask Upendra to come. Let him be trained up.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu didn't kill. He did not kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. 'Cause Kṛṣṇa killed, but in this age that principle of love...
Prabhupāda: And if you kill, then wholesale will be killed. No... There will be no candidate for learning. You have to kill everyone. That will be at the end, Kalki-avatāra, simply killing, bas, finish. They'll have no capacity to understand. Nowadays there are... They cannot understand this philosophy. But there are some, they are trying to understand. But at the end of Kali-yuga there will be no brain to understand or to hear all these things. Mleccha. That is mleccha. Mleccha means they are so unclean, unstandardized, they have no brain. That is Europe, America. That's ... Mleccha. Kill animals. Eat. Mleccha, they are, according to Vedic, untouchable. If you touch, then you infect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but you did not become infected by our association.
Prabhupāda: He was a great yogi and so on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You remember in that book you were reading, The Aquarian Gospel. It mentioned how he learned yoga when he came to India.
Prabhupāda: We admit. Guru Mahārāja said śaktyāveśa-avatāra, powerful incarnation. Therefore whenever there was question of Jesus, I never disrespected Jesus. Never criticized him, because I know that he is powerful representative of God. We took it from Guru Mahārāja.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja would sometimes...
Prabhupāda: He said that Christ is śaktyāveśa-avatāra, as Buddha. How he can be otherwise? He sacrificed everything for God. He cannot be ordinary man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Hm. That Melbourne meeting, it was... You were present?
Prabhupāda: Who Kṛṣṇa was, they knew it. But "This cowherd boy is Kṛṣṇa?" Just like we are also despising these so-called avatāras. That does not mean we do not know Kṛṣṇa. We know actually Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we despise all these rascals, "avatāra." Their master is Kṛṣṇa they know. They're servants. Otherwise how they are devatā? But the mistake was that "My master has come, has become a cowherd boy and playing with insignificant and boys and girls, and He is my master?" That is going on. Sūrayaḥ. Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. You know this, the Bhāgavata? Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Great, great stalwart demigods, they also become bewildered to understand. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Just like such a big lawyer, he is asking, "Whether Kṛṣṇa is fictitious or fact?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has already come.
Indian man (5): Eh?
Prabhupāda: He has already come—by His name. Kali-kāle kṛṣṇa nāma-rūpe avatāra.
Indian man (5): Oh, that's correct.
Prabhupāda: This Hare Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. He's absolute. His name, His form, His attributes, His paraphernalia—they're all one. So He... This Hare Kṛṣṇa name is not different from Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: What?
Indian man (5): And Kṛṣṇa had promised definitely that He would appear whenever there is...
Prabhupāda: Yes, He has appeared, nāma-rūpe avatāra.
Indian man (5): So I think we are passing through a greater hell than what was...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we saw something like that in Hrishikesh. Just recently we went to Hrishikesh, and in one āśrama they have doll exhibits of all the avatāras. Oh, it was very... Of all kṛṣṇa-līlā. And each doll exhibit is within a little temple, dome-shaped temple. People go and look, and there's a plaque that describes what it is. Very nice.
Rāmeśvara: We'll have more than a plaque.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that whole thing costs a thousand dollars, not a quarter of a million.
Prabhupāda: Doll exhibition you can have in this temple also. People will come to see.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Jayapatākā: Well, about two weeks ago he had told Bhavānanda that he would be called to Vṛndāvana and that all the GBCs or leaders of the Society would be called to Vṛndāvana to see Your Divine Grace. He said that actually Your Divine Grace is a pure Vaiṣṇava and like type of avatāra, empowered person of Kṛṣṇa, so that he shouldn't really speak anything, because he's simply a tantric type of astrologer, 'cause you are able to change your fate or change according to your desire. He predicted that all the GBCs would be coming.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bharadvāja: I'm just giving a very simple outline now. There's more notes on this. Then we show how the spirit soul enters the creation by Mahā-Viṣṇu. And then we show how the soul evolves up to human form of life through all the different species. Then, in the second, in the third portion, rather, we deal with the human form of life. And there's five different points: first, the place of the human form in the evolutionary cycle; and number two, human form of life as a turning point; then three, human life is meant for self-realization, not sense gratification; and four, not executing the mission of human life is the source of all problems; and five, establishment and maintenance of dharma by the avatāras and the disciplic succession. And the last movement is entitled "The Perfection of Life."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: Yaṁ pravrajantam.
Bharadvāja: Girirāja has gone to get the book. Then there will be some dioramas of different avatāras-Kṛṣṇa, Buddha and Caitanya Mahāprabhu-showing how They have come to protect the dharma, to reestablish the dharma. Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna on the battlefield.
Prabhupāda: Girirāja come back.
| Page Title: | Avatara (Conversations 1975 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, JayaNitaiGaura |
| Created: | 30 of Dec, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=56, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 56 |