Argument (Conversations 1975)

Satsvarūpa: Just like we say God is svarāṭ, they say that the matter is svarāṭ.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in... Not svarāṭ. We never find a gas is svarāṭ, matter is svarāṭ. They... Just this body. Has this body come out itself? Because the soul is there, the body has developed. Therefore the cause of this body is the soul. The body is not independent. And the soul goes away. Then body's no more independent. It cannot move. It becomes just like dust. "Dust thou art; dust thou be-est." (break) ...like this body is moving now, but it is not independent. It is dependent on the soul. The soul goes away; it does not move. So how it is independent? And everyone knows that because the soul takes shelter within the womb of the mother, the body develops. If the child comes out dead, it does not develop. Therefore matter is dependent on the soul, living being.

Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving.

Prabhupāda: Where is moving? This is moving?

Rāmeśvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?

Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.

Prabhupāda: Then you become blind. Then you can see.

Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that when atoms...

Prabhupāda: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They... Why? Are they authority?

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of "They say"? You say. When you'll say "They say," I'll say "They say," (laughter) my authorities. My authorities. If you defy my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Then come to plain logic.

Madhudviṣa: Well, you look at the earth, and you see it. It is stationary.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Just like we look at the building over there. From a distance, it is stationary. But if we go inside, we can see there is so much movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Animal, that's all. Animal also knows that "I'll have to go there." Without any aim, without any purpose, if they are working, they are fool number one, mūḍhāḥ.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Take to industry." Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.

Morning Walk -- (World War III) -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the argument is that "The cities are there, and now what can we do?"

Prabhupāda: Hm ?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cities are already there. There are millions of people in the cities...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are offering this place. Come here. Why do you not come here and live with us? Then this is... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Therefore we are creating New Vrindaban and farm, and we are trying to purchase... This is our movement, that we give you sufficient food, shelter, health, philosophy, religion, character, everything, purity. Come here. Why don't you come? They come here on the weekdays, and then fly away, go away. You see? We are giving such nice room, but they will not live here. They will go to the hubble-bubble of the city. They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket-coming back to hell again, not going back to God.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People argue that "God has placed us in this world, and that He's left us in darkness, so therefore He's played a trick on us." What is our argument against this?

Prabhupāda: You have come to this world of darkness, and Kṛṣṇa is trying to raise you again to the light. That is the fact. You have willingly come to this nonsense place. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He comes Himself and tries to again get you out, deliver from this nonsense thing. This is real position.

Tripurāri: They say that "God has put us here, but He's given us intelligence, so we're to figure it out ourselves."

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tripurāri: That "God has put us here, and He's given us intelligence, so we're to figure it out ourselves."

Prabhupāda: So therefore, you take intelligence from God, you rascal. Why do you keep yourself in darkness?

Tripurāri: Well, they say that "God has given us the intelligence to figure it out on our own."

Prabhupāda: That is intelligence—you surrender. You are surrendering to māyā, to your wife, to your dog, to your family, to your house, to your nation. Why not God? You rascal. You are surrendering to so many other things. Why not to God?

Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So, Kṛṣṇa philosophy is little difficult to understand. If they are understanding so easily, that is not understanding. It is easy, it is easy, if you accept Kṛṣṇa's words, it is very easy. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, always think of Me. So where is the difficulty? You have seen Kṛṣṇa's picture, Kṛṣṇa's Deity, and if you think Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? After all, we have to think something. So instead of something, why not think Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? But he does not take seriously. He has to think so many things, except Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. There is no difficulty to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not at all. But people will not take it, that is the difficulty. They will argue simply. Kūṭaka. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, where is the argument against it? You are saying that, they may not think of Kṛṣṇa, they may not say about Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. This is argument, this is not philosophy. Philosophy is there, direct, you should do like this, that's all. You do it and get the results. You go to purchase something, the price is fixed, you pay the price and take it. Where is argument? If you are, if you serious about that thing, you may pay price and take it away. That is the advice of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā-mati kriyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. If you can purchase somewhere the thinking of Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā mati. That is, we have translated into "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." If you can purchase this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, somewhere, immediately purchase it. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvita-mati, kriyatām, just purchase, yadi kuto 'pi labhyate, if it is available somewhere. And if I have to purchase, then what price? Tatra laulyam ekaṁ mūlam. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ labhyate. If you want what is the price, he says the price is your eagerness. And that eagerness to obtain it, takes many millions of births. Why you want Kṛṣṇa? Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Kṛṣṇa, he will become mad after Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign.

Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen the North Pole but you believe it.

Prabhupāda: Ah ha. You materialistic people say that "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say, "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon, I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you. So how can I believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pictures.

Prabhupāda: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God therefore don't believe. Therefore I say that I did not go with you, I don't believe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon.

Prabhupāda: When you take then I shall believe.

Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.

Prabhupāda: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: For us.

Guest (1): They should doubt for themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view...

Guest (1): Our movement, this movement, is Kṛṣṇa's own movement.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, from mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop?

Guest (1): It will never stop.

Prabhupāda: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important, that it will continue to stay.

Satsvarūpa: They doubt that our devotees will stick many times.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: But the thing is this machine is so wonderful that it goes on without an operator.

Prabhupāda: That is your dullness! You are rascal, you cannot understand how the machine is working, how big it is, that is your dullness. But it is a machine. Very big machine. You cannot understand—that is not (argument) that this is not a machine. This is not very good argument, that "I cannot understand, therefore it is not a machine." But you see the idea machine is there already, everything is going on—machine.

Śrutakīrti: It is such a good machine it doesn't require an operator.

Paramahaṁsa: That is the wonder of it.

Prabhupāda: No. That is wrong. You cannot find out in your experience anywhere, any machine which is not being operated by a person. You cannot find it. Then why do you bring this idea that without operator it is going on. Where you get this idea? This is a false idea. Because you have no such experience. Where is the machine that "Here is a machine going on without any operator." Find out a machine.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: But then he dies, and they cannot see any future after that.

Prabhupāda: Your seeing has no power. This is no argument, "I cannot see." I cannot see the other side. That does not mean there is nothing. This is all rascaldom. He has become authority "I want to see." What you can see? Now this is Indian Ocean. On the other side there is India, and other islands, but you cannot see it. Does it mean there is nothing? So, these are foolish questions. Because they are rascals they put such questions and nonsense. That is the proof that they are rascals. They are simply taking authority his little vision. That's all. What is your vision? Why don't you see what is the other side? But does it mean there is nothing because you cannot see? WHen one says "I cannot see," that means he is a rascal number one. He's believing so much upon his seeing. He does not know that he is a most insignificant person, so there is no value of his seeing. That he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal. Is it not? He's believing his eyes so greatly that "I cannot see." And what is the value of your seeing? What you can see?

Amogha: But there are so many people who come to us and say, "Well, we can see." But we don't believe they can see.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? They are discussing?

Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights. And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they have in the newspapers.

Paramahaṁsa: Even in Los Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They're called Militant Homosexuals.

Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, "Of course not. This is only a perversion." And they said, "This is nature's way to stop overpopulation," because there won't be any children. So much foolish.

Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: Actually if anyone looks at Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically see that it is perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got our argument, logic, everything. Why should we blindly follow?

Gaṇeśa: The results can be seen practically that those who are following the Bhagavad-gītā written by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are giving up these nonsense activities.

Prabhupāda: Letters are posted?

Paramahaṁsa: No, not yet.

Prabhupāda: How they can deliver if you don't post?

Paramahaṁsa: Well the next time someone goes in. This evening someone can post.

Prabhupāda: There is no letter box?

Gaṇeśa: There's not one close. I can post them tonight.

Prabhupāda: No, night is useless. Nobody is coming to clear.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Anyone who takes milk... Everyone takes milk. The cow is the mother. Mother gives milk. And mother, when she cannot supply milk, mother should be cut up. Is that a very good philosophy? Is it human philosophy? What is the answer? But if you say that somebody wants to, say in your country majority they want to eat meat. So, if you put that argument, then you can eat some lower animals. You can eat the pigs. You are eating also, pigs. Not in a massive scale. Massive scale—if you are Christian you should follow your religious scripture: "Thou shall not kill!" This should be the principle. But if you are a rākṣasa, if you want to eat meat, then at least don't kill the cows. You can eat other, insignificant animals. You are eating also. You are eating everything. Except the moving cars, you are eating all the moving animals. The car also moves, but you cannot eat. Otherwise you are killing everything. You have become so civilized rascal that your business is to kill other animals and eat. You are so civilized. You are still in the crude form of human being, just like in the jungles, the aborigines, the Africans, they do not know how to develop civilization—crude methods, eating the animals. That also, they are not so uncivilized that they keep slaughterhouses. You are so uncivilized that you are keeping slaughterhouses, regularly. These Africans and other jungle people they eat meat, but they directly kill. They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal—a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. The government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business. That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: Ah, "Of luminaries, I am the moon."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Very soon the United States is sending up one rocket and Russia is sending up another rocket and they are joining in space and they think this is progress. They'll join together up there. They hope someday they'll be able to stay in a station like that and then go out to some planet.

Prabhupāda: They could not mix in this planet, they are going to mix in another planet.

Srutakirti: They'll probably have some argument in outer space. The astronauts will get into a fight.

Prabhupāda: The rascal could not compromise here, they're going in the sky. All mental concoction.

Gaṇeśa: They actually have never got to the moon.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Amogha: He says did they actually get to the moon or not?

Prabhupāda: That I am doubtful. Always. (break) ...doubt always. They have... They might have gone... Mostly, most probably they have not gone. Simply propaganda. But even they have gone, not to moon. Maybe the Rahu planet. Or there are so many other planets.

Amogha: Is that Rahu planet closer than the moon to the earth?

Prabhupāda: Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when it comes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipse in the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Gaṇeśa: When the movement first came out to Australia about three or four years ago, one of his disciples who was a girl, she came through Perth, and at that time I was arguing Bhagavad-gītā with her, but she could not understand. She could not see that it was Kṛṣṇa to surrender to and not Guru Maharaj-ji.

Amogha: Whenever we place a good argument with them, they say, "Yes, but all these words are just words, and actually it is beyond words. The truth is beyond words. So never mind."

Prabhupāda: You are talking words. You are not beyond.

Amogha: Then they should not talk anything.

Prabhupāda: "Please stop your talking because you are not beyond, you are talking also like me."

Paramahaṁsa: They say that the Absolute Truth is beyond words. That way we don't have to explain anything about it.

Prabhupāda: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking, therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break)

Paramahaṁsa: He said that... When we were walking to the car, he said... I was talking to him a little bit about it, and I gave him some magazines to read. He said it is very convincing argument about the, why the problems are all there because of the bodily concept of life. So he said, "It is a very convincing point of view and very thought-provoking." So I think he listened very well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if this kind of man will understand—they are in position—that will be a great... He is better than so many clergies.

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...

Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..."

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: But how can we understand all this science and technology just by understanding Kṛṣṇa, just by one book?

Prabhupāda: Not one book. You cannot read them throughout your whole life, there are so many books.

Amogha: I don't think they have any argument.

Prabhupāda: What argument? They are fools, rascals. What argument?

Amogha: Yesterday they did not know what to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody could say against me. Maunaṁ śamyati labdhaḥ.(?) If they remain silent, that means they have accepted. I charge you that "You are thief," and if you don't protest, then you are thief. If you are not thief, immediately you will: "How you say? Why you have said?" There will be fight. But if you remains silent, that proves that you are thief. So they could not give us any counterargument. Therefore they accepted.

Amogha: Their biggest problem is that there isn't any counterargument.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as I told them, "Who is there without father?"

Amogha: Then they tried a little bit. They said, "Everyone has a father, so who's God's father?"

Prabhupāda: That I answered, that "That is God."

Morning Walk -- May 18, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Yes. In their religion animal-killing is strictly forbidden.

Amogha: Did Śaṅkara, did he physically force the Buddhists out of India, by force?

Prabhupāda: No.

Amogha: Or just teaching.

Prabhupāda: By argument, by teaching. (break) Just see how nice flower is coming from the sand. And they say there is no vegetation. What is the difference between this sand and that sand? Sand is sand. Huh? How they are coming? Wherefrom they are getting nourishment? If there no possibility of living being, who is coming to water it? Nobody is coming. In this place, flower, it is a good as the flower growing on the land. But they are growing in the sand, you see. You see actually in the sand things are coming out, and one rascal will say, "No, there is no life." We have to believe it? Even it is full of sand and dust. Here we see dust and sand produce life, so why shall I believe these rascals about sand? What is the difference between that sand and this sand?

Amogha: Some scientists admit there is life there, there may be life...

Prabhupāda: No, no, these scientists are all rascals; first of all take it, don't believe it. "Some scientists say"; then who is real scientist? This scientist says there is no life, another scientist says there may be, then who is right, hm?

Amogha: They have to go and see. (laughs) But they don't see any signs of civilization or buildings, so they say it may be plant life, but they don't see anything...

Morning Walk -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished?

Madhudviṣa: You can see the progression. When you are born you are small...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: ...when you die, you are big.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: So that is progression. So how can they say that progression will stop?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another foolishness to say like that, that with the body everything is finished. Where it is finished? (break) ...supposed to be educated, advanced in civilization, and this simple truth they cannot understand. Mūḍha. Where is finishing? Why you are trying to live for many years? Why don't you welcome death? (devotees begin kīrtana) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

Room Conversation with Journalist -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Journalist: No, I don't deny.

Prabhupāda: Personally you may not. But the atheists, they say "There is no God." The so-called scientists, atheists, they say, "There is no God." So how can it be? If you say "There is no father," how it is possible? Without father, how you exist? So God is accepted the supreme father, the original father. So how the atheists can deny the existence of God? Is that very good argument, to deny the original father?

Journalist: Yes. I would like to know more about what do you think our society is doing wrong?

Prabhupāda: Wrong because they do not care for the original father. The father has given so many facilities. We require water. There is oceans and big, big seas and oceans. Father has given. We require light. The father has given the sun. We require heat, everything arrangement is there so that we can live very nicely and thank father. This is our duty. But people are becoming more or less rebellious: "Oh, there is no God. We are God." What is this foolishness?

Journalist: Are people using the wrong things to live too sophisticated?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. Because he is foolish, he will do all nonsense..., wrong things, which will create unhappiness. To deny God means foolishness, and foolish man simply will create trouble. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy by simply creating trouble, that's all. And they are claiming, the foolish Darwin's theories, they also claim that monkey is our forefather.

Morning Walk -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Devotee (1): That's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Which way? (break)

Hari-śauri: Their argument is, then, if God is there and He is actually the ultimate controller, and He is motivating everything to happen, then I can just sit back and do nothing and things will happen.

Prabhupāda: No, you should work for the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. But do not think that because you working very nicely, the result will come. That is the... Because it is not in your hand. Therefore, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana: "Your duty is to go on working, but don't expect the result as you desire." That will never happen unless it is sanctioned. Just like a man is suffering. Your duty is to appoint nice physician, nice medicine. But is there any guarantee that he will live? Why does he die? You can say that "I have given the best medicine and best medical treatment." Still, he dies. What is the cause? What do they say? What is the cause?

Amogha: Perhaps they didn't know the right...

Prabhupāda: (break) Wherefrom the force comes? Why don't you inquire? Why do you say that sometimes you are forced to commit mistake. So why don't you inquire wherefrom the force coming? Did you inquire that?

Devotee (2): I tried to, Prabhupāda.

Morning Walk -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: So you have to dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons they separate Kṛṣṇa, "What is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing." That means they don't dovetail with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And Kṛṣṇa gives chance, "All right, you enjoy without Me." And when he is disgusted, then Kṛṣṇa comes once, "Now you have experienced. You haven't got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... (BG 18.66).

"Do it." This is going on. The rascals, they want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa; the dancing is here also, ball dance. Why they do not get any pleasure? Without Kṛṣṇa. You dance with Kṛṣṇa, you get real pleasure. So our business is to educate people that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa. That is your argument. Just like the materialistic person argue, "Why shall I do this? Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?" They argue simply this. Actually, there cannot exist anything without Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, Kṛṣṇa says. "All this, whatever you see, that is My expansion of energy. Everything is resting on Me." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is on Me." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. By bhakti-yoga gradually he develops that everything—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—everything is Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That mahātmā is very rare who can see everywhere Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 2: That was the argument he used.

Guest 1: No, It (indistinct). (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Originally, originally, everything belongs to God. So why we are claiming, "It is my property"? Suppose you have come here. You sit down for one hour, two hours, and if you claim, "It is my property," is that very good judgement? You have come from outside, you are allowed to sit down here for two hours, and if you claim, "This is my property..." Similarly, we come here. We take birth either in America or in Australia or in India and remain for fifty, sixty or hundred years, and why shall I claim, "It is my property"?

Guest 3: You don't claim it, I suppose. If you own property, what happens, I would have thought, is more that for a time you have got possession.

Prabhupāda: For a time you have got possession of the chair—that does not mean your property.

Conversation in car -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, idaṁ te na atapaskāya. Those who have no life of penance and austerities, don't talk with them. It will be a waste of time. You know that there is verse in the Bhagavad-gītā? In Eighteenth Chapter. Idaṁ te na atapaskāya, māṁ ca yaḥ abhyasūyati: "Persons who are envious of Me and those who have not undergone austerity and penances, don't talk with them." But we take the risk. We go even to these rascals. Because for Kṛṣṇa's sake, "Never mind, it will take some time. Let me try this rascal." Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy. So far argument, logic, philosophy is concerned, they are beyond... Because they are animal. They cannot understand.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Australian devotee 2: They feel justified in killing because they say the animal has no soul.

Prabhupāda: Just see how fool they are. Therefore we simply say these are rascals. They have not even the common sense of an uneducated man. And they are scientist. Why there is no soul? What is the proof? What is their argument? Why they say there is no soul? What is the argument?

Australian devotee 2: Because it says in the Bible that until one accepts Jesus Christ one has no soul.

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ said that animal has no soul? Has he said like that? Has he said?

Australian devotee 2: He says that one must be born again.

Prabhupāda: Never he can say like that. He is not such a fool. He cannot say that.

Australian devotee 4: Like this priest said the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the human being has a spirit soul, but the animal just has a soul. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) The same thing. "Everyone is sinful, but we are pure sinful." (laughter) Pure sinful.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That means we must commit sin. The government...

Amogha: I think their idea is that if...

Prabhupāda: But their argument is fallacious. Kill means it dies. So how we can eat? Just see the... See their intelligence. Kill means it dies.

Śrutakīrti: They say that if it dies naturally it is due to some disease, so there may be some harm in eating such meat.

Prabhupāda: So that means nobody will die. Is there... The law is it to die. Why disease? Disease or no disease, everyone should die.

Śrutakīrti: But if we kill the cow without it, while it is healthy, then it is very good to eat the meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but the argument is die. As soon as you kill, it is died. As soon as you take the fish out of the water it dies. So how you can say that dead animal is not good? It is dead. For argument's sake, "A dead animal is not good," but you make him dead. Then you eat. Where is the argument that dead animal is bad? You are eating dead. That means they are not even common sense. That is the rascaldom. Rascal means one who has no common sense even.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1975, Honolulu:

Guru kṛpā: The trouble is is that even if we explain these things to most people, factually their only interest is how they can eat, and how they can gratify their senses, and they take these other scientists up as the extracurricular...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). "Those who have lost their identity, being captivated by bhoga and aiśvarya, they cannot understand." Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahataḥ. For slight, so-called happiness they are making big, big problems (projects?). Māyā... bharam. Bharam means big, big problems. (projects?). And sometimes they put forward their whim (?) for the next generation. Now, if Darwin's theory accepted, the monkeys never thought of the next generation, so how you have got this consciousness(?)? Why you are thinking of your next generation? What is the argument? The monkey cannot think that Mr. Nixon will come, become president of this or that, U.S.A. So how he became president without your thinking of the, your forefathers, monkeys? So why you are thinking of your generation? Your forefathers did not.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1975, Honolulu:

Guru kṛpā: That is a good argument.

Prabhupāda: He will think, "What is next? Is it finished here?" The rascal says, "No, after finishing, everything is finished." What is this? If there is evolution—you have come to this stage —then what is the next stage? That is natural. That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). Now you can go to the moon planet if you try. Moon planet, sun planet, Venus and so many. If you become serious. And you can go to God's planet, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Now you select where will you will go. But there is spiritual planet. But what is their theory? That after finishing this body, everything is finished.(?) They do not believe in the next life.

Bali-mardana: Therefore their life must be hopeless.

Prabhupāda: Hopeless, yes. (break) Yes, you can send him to India.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: So believing means "I don't accept your commandments." Is that belief? Has Jesus Christ that "You don't believe in my commandments, but you believe in me."

Śrutakīrti: Christ never spoke the commandments. That was Moses.

Prabhupāda: Then don't take Bible. Throw it away. Then don't bring Bible as authority.

Gurukṛpa: They have no argument on any...

Prabhupāda: (break) ...fallen from their original culture. Still, we have seen, as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa conscious festival, thousands and thousands of men... That we have experienced.

Gurukṛpa: But in India it seems that no matter what you tell them, they don't change their ways. They have their...

Prabhupāda: No, they believe in Kṛṣṇa, "He is God." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That they believe in.

Śrutakīrti: But that's what the Christians say. "We believe in Christ," but they don't follow.

Prabhupāda: They follow Him. In India they still. Majority follow. The non-followers are minority. (end)

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu:

Harikeśa: They might argue...

Prabhupāda: What is the argument? You have stopped. That is your failure, that's all. You can argue to the laymen, foolish men, but we will say you have stopped; therefore it is failure. All bogus propaganda is now stopped.

Devotee (3): They are saying the moon isn't worth develop...

Prabhupāda: Now they cannot say anything because they are failure. Anything they say, that is all foolishness. They cannot say anything. Once you are failure, you have no value, anything you say.

Harikeśa: I've heard the argument that when they are going to the moon, they are always in contact, bouncing off these sonar waves and radar waves off the moon's surface, and when they are coming near, they can even see from their little portholes the moon's surface, the same moon that they see on the earth.

Prabhupāda: They say all nonsense. That's all. (chuckles) Why the earth is not brilliant at night like the moon?

Bali-mardana: It depends on where you are. It depends on where you are looking from.

Prabhupāda: "Where you are" means?

Harikeśa: They have pictures from the moon taken of the earth.

Prabhupāda: Pictures? First of all you see. Then take picture. You cannot see.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: "Where you are" means?

Harikeśa: They have pictures from the moon taken of the earth.

Prabhupāda: Pictures? First of all you see. Then take picture. You cannot see.

Harikeśa: They use all these things to argue that they actually did go to the moon.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argument if they have stopped? That is failure. Don't talk nonsense anymore. Phalena paricīyate. By the result we have to understand. Your result is you are failure. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? Stop this nonsense.

Ambarīṣa: It's like five years ago they declared a war on cancer, and they spent billions and billions of dollars on it, and just the other day they now said that it was a complete failure, that the disease has just kept on growing and growing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot stop even cancer disease and you are controlling nature. Just see their (?) false, puffed up. They cannot control one disease, and they are going to control nature. We have to believe that.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Harikeśa: So the best position is just remain silent until realization comes?

Prabhupāda: No. You should... Śukadeva Gosvāmī says. You have to believe that. It is an idea. If you believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there; neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no argument.

Harikeśa: No.

Prabhupāda: No.

Siddha-svarūpa: Did the people who said they went to the moon, did they go to another planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or they did not go anywhere. They were in the desert... What is that?

Devotees: Arizona.

Prabhupāda: Arizona. That's all. That is possible.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, it's possible. I wouldn't put anything beyond them.

Prabhupāda: They are all doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising that.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's...

Prabhupāda: That is useless.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are lokas.

Harikeśa: So, in other words, it would make no... It would be not a very good program to get some understanding from Vedic astronomy, like, say, some expert Vedic astronomers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: It would not be a good program...?

Prabhupāda: No, what benefit you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then it is success. We are not going to any other planet. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25), let them go. We are not interested in these things.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: And they accept that God is a person, that Jesus is the son of the Supreme Person. They even use the word, "Supreme Person, Supreme Personality." So in that way they are in conflict with...

Prabhupāda: That God is separate from Jesus?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that He is the father of Jesus. They make long arguments to show their point, that God is one with Jesus as father and son, not as two persons the same person. And they also have fairly strict... They have strict principles, but the people don't follow them very well.

Ambarīṣa: A lot of the young people do. Like I live around Salt Lake, and there's a lot of Mormons there and there's a lot that... (break)

Siddha-svarūpa: ...we can become creators of a universe and be in charge of our own universe. They are hopeful for that. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...in Bhāgavata also that after passing one hundred life of first-class karmī one can become Brahmā. And after becoming Brahmā, he goes directly back to home, back to Godhead. (break) ...this dissolution, Brahmā hasn't got to die. By the same body he goes. (break) All the inhabitants of Brahmaloka they also go with Brahmā.

Morning Walk -- June 16, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: This war will not prolong. That is not possible.

Harikeśa: So this is not the big one.

Prabhupāda: No, it is big war, but it will be finished within short time.

Bali-mardana: Drop their bombs, everything's finished.

Upendra: But the argument is that these bombs will create more disturbance than just the blowing up. They create what's called radio-active fallout.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will do. But the war will stop because the party which will be able to drop the bomb first, he will be victorious.

Harikeśa: They've got these fancy...

Prabhupāda: Then after effects, what will happen, that is another thing. But the war will not continue for ten years or five years, like that.

Bali-mardana: Many Communist countries now, they are not making any more big cities. They are keeping the population very spread out so that after the war they will be able to take over. Because if one has a big city, then the people can be killed very easily in one bomb, finished. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...they are afraid of death?

Bali-mardana: Well, the Chinese figure they have so many people that even if there is a war...

Prabhupāda: They are gainer.

Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working.

Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs?

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That "Hare Krishna" film at least helped us in the matter of propagating the Hare Kṛṣṇa word.

Dr. Gerson: I would like to.

Jayatīrtha: Dr. Gerson would like to publish a book that would be accepted by the scholarly circles so that they would see that our school and our varṇāśrama system is very good for mankind.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Because one of the main arguments against the movement is that we are crazy. So Dr. Gerson, it is his specialty in determining who is sane and who is crazy, and according to his observation, the devotees here are more sane than...

Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us.

Dr. Gerson: I think the data that I am collecting will support that and show it in terms that other people in psychology and medicine will be able to read.

Prabhupāda: If you read Dr. Judah's book...

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: It is... Very simple answer is: when the mother certifies, "He is your father," that's all. You don't have to make research. That is futile. By research, you cannot understand who is your real father. You can understand your real father only by the certificate of your mother. That's all. Therefore our Vedic mantra says that religion and God cannot be manufactured by speculation. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yojayet. Just like this example, father. Father was existing before my birth. So after my birth, with limited knowledge I make research who is my father—you will never find your father. But if you take the certificate of your mother, that is there. Similarly, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā, things which are beyond our conception, that cannot be established simply by argument, logic, so-called science and philosophy, that is not possible. The same example: by argument, logic, science, philosophy you cannot ascertain who is your father. The only simple method and authorized method is to ask mother, and if she says, "Yes, he is your father..." Similarly, things which are beyond our conception, simply argument will be useless. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yo... Tarka means arguments. In another place it is said, tarka, argument, is futile. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ: "By argument, you cannot come to the right conclusion." You can argue in a way; I can argue a better way, he can argue in better way. That is not the system. That will not help. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). If you study scriptures, so in the world there are many varieties of scriptures. There is Bible, there is Bhagavad-gītā, there is Koran, there is so on, so on. So which one is correct? That also you cannot decide. Śrutayo vibhinnāḥ, and nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And if you consult philosophers or scientists, every scientist, every philosopher, differs from the other. Otherwise he cannot become a big scientist.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the person. God is ultimately a person. And then, by His another potency, He is situated everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramānu-cay... He is situated within the atom also. That is called Paramātmā, Supersoul. And He is situated in His impersonal, the whole material creation or any creation. The example is given just like fire. Fire is one place but its heat and light is expanded to mines. Just like the sun. It is a fire light, but heat and light is expanded throughout the universe. So similarly, God is one and His energy is expanded everywhere. You can understand Him by His energies. Just like the government, the president, he is not here, but still, we are under government. Who can deny, that "I am not under government"? If you say, "I do not see who is president. What is the government?" That is not argument. You are. Simply you have to make your eyes to see how you are under Kṛṣṇa. That is required. But you are already.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Revatīnandana:

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

(BG 9.4)

Translation: By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

Purport: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is not perceivable through the gross material senses. It is said that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's name, fame, pastimes, etc., cannot be understood by material senses. Only to one who is engaged in pure devotional service under proper guidance is He revealed. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated, premāñjanacchurita.... One can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, always within himself and outside himself if he has developed the transcendental loving attitude towards Him. Thus for people in general He is not visible. Here it is said that although He is all-pervading, everywhere present, He is yet not conceivable by the material senses. But actually, although we cannot see Him, everything is resting in Him. As we have discussed in the Seventh Chapter, the entire material cosmic manifestation is only a combination of His two different energies, the superior spiritual energy and the inferior material energy. Just as the sunshine is spread all over the universe, the energy of the Lord is spread all over the creation, and everything is resting in that energy.

Yet one should not conclude that because He is spread all over He has lost His personal existence. To refute such argument the Lord says, "I am everywhere, and everything is in Me, but still I am aloof." For example, a king heads a government which is but the manifestation of the king's energy; the different governmental departments are nothing but the energies of the king, and each department is resting on the king's power. But still one cannot expect the king to be present in every department personally. That is a crude example. Similarly, all the manifestations that we see, and everything that exists both in this material world and in the spiritual world, are resting on the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The creation takes place by the diffusion of His different energies, and, as is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, He is everywhere present by His personal representation, the diffusion of His different energies.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just wait. I am coming. (break) Kṛṣṇa says that "I am present everywhere by My energy. But personally I may not be here, in here." But ultimately there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's energy and Kṛṣṇa. Wherever there is energy... Just like electricity. Everywhere there is. If you are expert you can generate electricity from anywhere.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are aware that they advance the argument of mesmerization against chanting. The psychologists do that.

Prabhupāda: That's good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted that you can mesmerize the drug-addicted hippies and engage them in understanding Kṛṣṇa, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: That's not mesmerization, of course.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm? What do you think, professor?

Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I agree with you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: If it is good... Everything good should be accepted.

Dr. Pore: One problem... You see, I keep wondering how you're so sure you know what good is, particularly when it comes to war. I would be a little more worried I think that...

Prabhupāda: What is that war?

Dr. Pore: Well, when you were telling that sometimes war is necessary. I should think that it's important to know how to decide when...

Prabhupāda: No, no, necessary means you cannot expect in this material world all saintly persons. There are bad elements. So if a bad elements comes to attack you, is it not your duty to fight and protect?

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But then why don't you go who has seen God? Why remain foolish? That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If you do not know, if you have not seen, then go to guru. Why should I sit idle, "I have not seen; I will never see"? Is that knowledge? Go there where you can see. That is intelligence. "Nobody has seen. Therefore there is no use of seeing." What is this argument? This is no argument.

Bahulāśva: They also say that no one can ever be pure, that everyone is doomed to be a sinner.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Ātmavat manyate jagat. That is the conditioned soul's qualification that if he is a fool, he thinks other, fools. Everyone, he thinks, "He is like me." That is nature. Ātmavat manyate jagat. "Everyone thinks others like himself." If he is a fool, he thinks all are. So these things are no argument. Nobody has seen God? How do you take the statistics? Can you say like that, any statistics, that nobody has... Maybe you have not seen him, one who has seen God. That is quite possible because you have not scrutinizingly studied all the men of the world. Then how you can say, "Nobody has seen"? You have not seen the man who has seen Him. He will not admit his fault. He will accuse others, "Nobody has seen God." Why? You may not have seen, but why you say, "Nobody has seen"? You have not seen that person who has seen God. Therefore you say like that.

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: How?

Satsvarūpa: It was an interreligion meeting, and there were representatives from different Christian..., and he was there for Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he didn't give any strong argument; he just presented it as if it were another way.

Prabhupāda: What is that way?

Satsvarūpa: Well, he said, he described it very... About Rādhā... That Lord Caitanya is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa combined.

Prabhupāda: That we say also.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, but the boys who were there, they said it wasn't at all the way you speak. He wasn't saying that ours was the best.

Prabhupāda: No, ours is the best, neither he is best nor it is as it is.

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good.

Satsvarūpa: But Swami Bon said, "No, He didn't convert him by argument, He converted him by the effulgence."

Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "But there was argument, rascal." (laughter)

Satsvarūpa: And as a result of that...

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, rascal.

Satsvarūpa: He told one professor that our devotees in general, they're not tolerant when someone speaks something.

Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "You are also not tolerant. Why you have come here? Because you are envious. You are the most intolerant. You are blaspheming."

Morning Walk -- July 2, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Harikeśa: What is that thing that enables them to advance?

Prabhupāda: That you will know later on. First of all try to understand this. Don't try to understand everything in a moment. That is foolishness. (break) That argument is clear?

Ambarīṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That if you call it a machine, how the machine can grow?

Ambarīṣa: The machine is changing at every second.

Prabhupāda: You say two things: "Growing" and "machine." So that is incomparable. Machine cannot grow.

Ambarīṣa: Jaya. (break)

Brahmānanda: ...many machines. You get another machine, another one, and another and another.

Prabhupāda: So I have changed so many machines. So death means another machine. Where is the difficulty?

Ambarīṣa: When the spirit soul leaves the body, the body continues to change, it deteriorates?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Spirit soul is changing machine. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. So when this machine is finished, and another machine.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof?

Harikeśa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also increased.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat.

Harikeśa: They become upset because they cannot dominate you.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make progress.

Uttamaśloka: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one does not agree to logic, does that mean that they are under the influence of tamo-guṇa?

Prabhupāda: That means he is animal.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: But how they will be liberated on this point? First of all let me know.

Jagadīśa: They're simply crazy.

Harikeśa: They may bring up the argument that they are not concerned that they have to bear children just as long as they can be superior.

Prabhupāda: Oh. This argument is like: "You go on beating me with shoes; still I am independent. I don't mind you are beating me with shoes, but I am independent." It is the argument like that.

Devotee (1): There were supposed to be some aldermen here, but one of them was a woman and it has been on the news already about what you've said and she doesn't want to come now.

Prabhupāda: Alderman?

Brahmānanda: They're like city council men. But in this case it's a city councilwoman. So she has refused to come because the comment... There has been a lot of publicity created. (laughter) So they are speaking on the radio that "The Swamiji has come to solve all the problems by saying that woman is inferior to men."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. (laughter) So what the man says?

Harikeśa: They are being quiet. They are too afraid to say.

Prabhupāda: That means they are accepting. When they are quiet... Quiet means... Maunaṁ śammati lakṣaṇam. If there is some argument and you remain quiet that means indirectly you accept.

Morning Walk -- July 12, 1975, Philadelphia:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That argument is different though from the way the science does. For example, they work so hard...

Prabhupāda: The science does... They conclude something, and next man changes. So that is your science. So how you can make a conclusion?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how so many things are working under the laws...?

Prabhupāda: Working, that's all right. You have seen that so many people are dying. That's all right. But I am challenging that you have not seen the next man who does not die. That you cannot answer.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, they find the laws of motion, Newton's laws of motion. They utilize that concept in shooting rockets. And they use exactly some mathematical formula and apply it.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but sometimes the shooting of the rocket missing.

Morning Walk -- July 12, 1975, Philadelphia:

Gurudāsa: But also you said once that we feel it. That is our proof.

Prabhupāda: No, feel, you may wrongly feel because you are imperfect. That is not good argument. Our argument is that the message is coming from the most authorized personality; therefore it is perfect. And we receive guru-paramparā. That is our process. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The rājarṣis, means very, very, big, big, stalwart persons, they accept it. Just like Arjuna gives evidence that "I accept You. You are Parabrahma." So he, next line, he says, "It is not that I am saying. But big, big personalities like Vyāsadeva, he has said. Nārada has said. Asita has said. And You are personally saying, so I have no doubt." This is our process. (break) ...Upendra, Upendra has not come? (break) ...knowledge is always imperfect.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: We are not dogmatic. Those people who are talking us as dogmatic, he is dogmatic. He does not know God, and when God is presented before him, he says, "No, He is not God." That is dogmatic.

Prof. Hopkins: Would you... Do you feel that those who've had genuine religious, spiritual understanding would not have that kind of argument?

Prabhupāda: Yes. One... We say... I do not say, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that... Find out this verse,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Find out. Seventh chapter.

Brahmānanda:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

"Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me."

Prabhupāda: As soon as one denies Kṛṣṇa is not God, then he comes within those categories: miscreant, rascal, lowest of the mankind, his knowledge is taken away by māyā, and he's a demon.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.

Bahulāśva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.

Brahmānanda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?

Bahulāśva: Should have homosex.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.

Jayatīrtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?

Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulāśva: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why they find difference in having soul?

Brahmānanda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal.

Bahulāśva: Actually psyche means soul.

Prabhupāda: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. (break) ...keeping building department different.

Room Conversation With Yogi Bhajan and Jain Muni -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Yogi Bhajan: So I think here in this case, because this is one of the typical case. Their plea is very simple plea against which you have to come out with a very strong argument. They say it were(?) the temple, a certain frequency. You have changed the frequency, and therefore you have disturbed the environment and the ecology. I studied the entire case. I got all my information and I got it. So that's their main contention. Now what you have to prove is very ticklish. Therefore each paper must be filed very comparatively right because this is they call invocation of the zonal area. To relieve the pressure on the subsidies of the zones and that lies on a miracle(?). So if your attorney comes down the defense of it, and then you can get under Amendment One and then they can't touch you. It's a very, very good fight. We fought it. That's why... And we won it. They got us on the same point. But what we did was, we had already filed a complaint, or we knew it was going to come. That case went out of the court just like that.

Devotee: We will consult with your attorney.

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, he is expert. They have figured it out. Because we are very conspicuous in this some way. You get away with things, you know, you are all right. But with us it is not "That's the man. Get him." (?)

Devotee: We have legal battles wherever we go.

Yogi Bhajan: We have a battle on every step. We wear a kapon (Sikh knife), we have a battle on every step. They say, "It is a knife. You can't carry it." We fight every few steps. Social dangers, we have more social aggressive dangers than you. But if you just channel it on a patterned style, you know, pattern thirteen. Now what we fight is this fight is pattern thirteen, fight it. We go, we go through. (Hindi) (Conversation continues)

Devotee: Is Nanda Kumāra ready?

Devotee: Nanda Kumāra is... Do you want to take here or...?

Prabhupāda: No.

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. It is simply proportion, five upon ten and five millions upon ten million. The proportion is the same. Because the figure is five million over ten million, that does not mean that the proportion is not the same. Put five upon ten or five million for ten mill..., the result is the same. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: ...also create food grains like this with their chemicals. They could do it too.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you produce more and give to India?

Rādhā-vallabha: Well, it belongs to us.

Prabhupāda: Why other parts, they will suffer for gain. That's nice. You have made scientific improvement. You produce more and distribute to the poor country. (break) we become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become advance in science and cooperate. That is our proposition. Andha-kañja-nyāya. One is blind; one is lame. So let the lame man be taken by the blind man. He can walk and they... Both their work will be nicely done. That I put this argument always. Andha-kañja-nyāya. You are blind by material advancement, and India has got spiritual advancement, but for want of money they cannot Move. So you take this lame man, you blind, on your shoulder, and cooperation will be good for the whole world. (end)

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: No, incarnations there are many. Many incarnations. There is a verse there. But Kṛṣṇa is the origin of incarnation. He is the original source of all incarnation. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So as you are teacher of religion, so you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy.

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the last year I went to many different colleges and universities. And I could see that these professors are very much argumentative. They like to argue. They like to debate. So I tried to start one debating program so that they could come and they could bring their philosophy. And I told them that I could show them their philosophy and how it was defective from the Bhagavad-gītā. I wanted to know if this was a good program for the universities.

Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?

Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer.

Devotee (4): Yes.

Morning Walk -- July 28, 1975, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: ...explain; therefore they bring this theory of chance. But we don't find any such chance in practical life. "There was a fool and he became high-court judge." Is there any? "There was a fool. He became a high-court judge." Is there any evidence like that? "There was ape. It became human, human being." I am simply surprised how this kind of argument is accepted by other fools.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And if you don't accept it, then they fail you in the examination.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you don't accept and repeat it, then you become failed in the examination. Then you can't get a diploma. Then you cannot get a good job. So they force you to repeat it. (break)

Prabhupāda: Field. All of a sudden it became by chance a garden and beautiful, everything.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: He is not interested for himself. He is interested for his generation, which he will kill as soon as he's rebellious. Just see the argument.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, should everyone move to the temple?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee (1): Live here?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Invite him. But who is coming here? Nobody is coming.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Does this mean you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in His two-armed form playing the flute at every moment?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Devotee (2): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then? Seeing means Kṛṣṇa as He is. That's all. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. You never read Brahma-saṁhitā? Do you read?

Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. What you have of the Brahma-saṁhitā in your books.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who are saintly persons, they always see Kṛṣṇa within his heart. Everyone can see if he tries. Why you and me? Anyone can see. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. But He is not open to the rascals. That is Kṛṣṇa's distinguish... Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). He is open to everyone, but not to all others, only to the devotee.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Paramātmā feature is in the heart.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Yogeśvara: There is one German historian named Frederick Engels.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is another foolish. (laughter) I can...

Yogeśvara: He wrote against Vedic culture by saying that even the brāhmaṇas of Vedic culture were not responsible because the culture failed. It ended at a certain period in history. It was simply exploitation of the workers under the guise of religion. That was his argument.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: That was not the fault of the

Prabhupāda: The argument of foolish man—who is caring? Vedic culture when finished?

Yogeśvara: (break) ...five thousand years ago.

Prabhupāda: Five thousand years ago. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years, how He accepted if it is finished? He is more than Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this rascal?

Yogeśvara: Haribol.

Morning Walk -- September 3, 1975, Vrndavana:

Trivikrama: ...sixteen rounds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So let him go to hell. What can be done? (break) So his friend said, "Oh, you are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father is drinking." "Oh, he will go to hell." "My mother is also drinking." "Oh, she will go." Then brother, sister... "Then where is hell? We are going all there. If we can live together, where is hell? Let us go to hell. Doesn't matter." So your argument is that. "Because everyone is being cheated, then where is fault? I have been cheated. That's all. It is not hell. It is heaven." (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Akṣayānanda: It's like saying everything is one.

Prabhupāda: No. That cannot be. You are one cheated and he is one cheater. How they can be one? (laughter)

Dhanañjaya: (break) ...isn't self-sufficiency...

Prabhupāda: Self-suff... There is no self-sufficiency. Self-insufficiency. Always remember that. Unless you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no self-sufficiency. All self-insufficiency. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) So you give me a description, what he is doing. (break) ...thinking, "I am independent," but he is kicked by his mind every moment. This is his independence—"Go there. Come here. Do this. Do that." The mind is dictating, and he is thinking, "I am independent." This is the position of conditioned soul. Therefore he is called conditioned. He is conditioned by the mind, and he is thinking "independent." Mūḍha. Therefore mūḍha. Tri-guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ mohitaḥ. He is illusioned by the three modes of material nature, and he does not know Kṛṣṇa, and he is thinking "independent."

Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small...

Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it. In Bhogilal's house there is no dog.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say, "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to..., I mean, take a...

Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept.

Dr. Patel: But he was in politics.

Prabhupāda: Poor or rich, that is due to this body.

Dr. Patel: In politics you have got to be body conscious. Politics or war is the same thing, after all. Your sphere is much different, sir, than those. And we cannot compare them with you or you with them. You are a, I mean, out and out a bhakta and a saint. He was a politician.

Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad-gītā,...

Dr. Patel: All right, Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever little we understand, we preach.

Prabhupāda: ...that the first principle of Bhagavad-gītā is to understand that "I am not this body."

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Because you have to suffer. You are rascal. You must suffer. Therefore evil must be there.

Brahmānanda: Why doesn't He force us to be good?

Prabhupāda: Just like if the criminals and thieves say, "Why government has created this prisonhouse?" Is it very good argument? It is for you, rascal. You are criminal. You must suffer. Why it is to be abolished? Otherwise who will suffer? It is for your suffering.

Brahmānanda: Why are we evil? Why doesn't God makes us good?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Brahmānanda: Why are we evil?

Prabhupāda: No, God says that "You become devotee of Me." You do not become. That is your fault. Therefore you must... Just like government does not say that you become criminal. Government says, "You become educated. You become high-court judge, become big officer." Why you become criminal, pickpocket? Does government give any education for becoming pickpocket? Hm? Is there any institution how to steal, how to become pickpocket? (laughter) Then why do you become? Just see. (break) ...eatables you can collect, and I shall show you how to cook in the cooker. One boy. You also see, because nobody will go there.

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nations, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...this movement and that movement. You said, "This is Kṛṣṇa's movement." So this should be our line of argument, because especially amongst the Indian community, when they question us about this swami and that swami...

Prabhupāda: They replied that in everything there is light. And yes, the light of, what is called, glowworm and the light of sun is not the same. Everything is light; that doesn't... We haven't got to accept so-called lights. Even there is light, when there is sunlight, why you should aspire after glow of light? (People chanting in background) Who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Cyavana: Everyone is saying Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma Hare Rāma. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: But the size of the body has changed.

Brahmānanda: The size has changed. It has grown, increased.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It looks different, completely... It looks different. There is no similarity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no similarity. Why the child... There was no mustaches. Why you have mustaches? How you can say "The same body"? You shall have to give your own argument. Child had no mustaches; you have got now mustaches. How you can say the same body? The child had no sex desire; now you have got sex desire.

Brahmānanda: They would say all these things are dormant within the child's body, and now they are coming out.

Prabhupāda: That we also say, but that body not... That "dormant" means dormant in the soul, not in the body. That is the knowledge. Dormant it is, but dormant in the soul, not in the body.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to admit that it's a different body because if the body is simply made of food and they are eating so much and evacuating so much, then it has to be a different body.

Prabhupāda: No, it is different body, undoubtedly. If they foolishly argue, that is different thing. Therefore rascal. Their argument has no value. How you can be the same body? So many changes. The body is changed. (to Indian man:) What is that? It was not garam?

Indian man (1): No, garam not.

Prabhupāda: So this argument, how he can refute, that he has died twenty-two years?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can also say that he has lived twenty-two years, because he has no perception of any life before that time. He can't remember living before.

Brahmānanda: "Before, I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I have lived for twenty-two years. Before, I was dead; I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I've been alive for twenty-two years."

Prabhupāda: So before, you were not alive. Then how your life came?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The combination of...

Prabhupāda: Do it. Again foolishness. These rascals... (laughs) Then, if you can create life, then where is the question of dead body? You create again. Give life again. If you are so competent that you can give life, combination, then this dead body is there. You bring chemicals and inject.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are foolish. Therefore he has to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa: dehino 'smin yathā... "Within this body there is soul."

Brahmānanda: You say there's a soul, but we've never seen a soul. It may be your imagination.

Prabhupāda: You may not see. You have not seen your forefather. That does not mean... This is all bad argument. Why do you believe? Your eyes are so imperfect; still, you say, "I did not see. I want to see." What is the value of your eyes? You see the sun globe—a small disc. But is it so? Then how do you know that it is so big?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: By hearing. That is important, not by seeing. Therefore śruti, Veda, is important, not your eyes.

Harikeśa: When people die, though, there is usually some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that death is caused by the disease...

Prabhupāda: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do not know. You are taking it, cause.

Prabhupāda: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation. And why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they can use the argument that you're saying that human life is simply for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No, from his argument, why should you try to keep it? Let him die.

Cyavana: They are afraid of death. No one wants to die.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are afraid someone will take them off the machine, too.

Cyavana: We want to live as long as we can.

Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept that your killing child, abortion, that is sinful.

Cyavana: It's easier for the mind to accept what is apparent to the senses. For example, to accept that I am this body is easier for my mind than to accept a philosophy which you say that we are not this body. That is very difficult for my mind to accept, whereas I can accept very immediately that I am this body.

Prabhupāda: Because it is difficult, therefore you are a fool. That proves that you are a fool.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public—"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public-four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa-harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21)—only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process—chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam—that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam—no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.

Prabhupāda: But why it is dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The body is dead? Well, they haven't been able to determine that yet.

Prabhupāda: Then they are rascals. There is no argument because you do not know.

Cyavana: They say "fate." They say "There is fate."

Prabhupāda: Faith we have got, but you have no faith.

Cyavana: Not faith. Fate.

Prabhupāda: What is that fate?

Cyavana: Predetermined, predestined.

Prabhupāda: Who made it, the predestination?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Higher controller.

Prahupada: Then you have to accept some higher authority, God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then death also must be some effect.

Prabhupāda: So who has made this law, cause and effect? Some way or other, you have to accept that you are not independent.

Harikeśa: Their arguments are so foolish, it's hard to think of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore mūḍha, they have been described. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). They are being kicked, punished; still, he says, "Oh, I don't care for anybody." I kick on your face. "Yes, I don't care for you." Like that. This is their argument.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.

Cyavana: But because everything in this world appears to be disordered, it is difficult to accept...

Prabhupāda: The world is not in disorder.

Cyavana: But it appears to be.

Brahmānanda: Man makes order.

Prabhupāda: Man makes order?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is... Your idea is that he conceives of the order. But actually there is no order, but he...

Prabhupāda: When there is cyclone, man can stop?

Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? There is no guarantee.

Cyavana: But everyone else around me appears to be having fun and enjoying.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can use this argument though, Prabhupāda. I've heard it before, that "So God has placed us in this world. Okay, there is God, and He has placed us in this world, and He has created the world also, and He has made these things very, very enjoyable, sex life, and this and that. So why not enjoy if God has created it?"

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. It is not enjoyable. That is... If a criminal says, "The prisonhouse is very enjoyable," it is like that.

Cyavana: But all the travel brochures and the advertisements, they say it's nice here. All the advertising and travel brochures, they say it is nice.

Prabhupāda: Let him say, but prisonhouse, is it nice? That is foolishness.

Morning Walk -- October 6, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal, the iron chest, but still, you are clever enough that you do.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The independence is there. Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if the spiritual world is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), full of bliss, then how is it that, somehow or another, we've left that blissful situation and come into this hellish...

Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prisonhouse freedom is there. Why he goes to the prisonhouse? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prisonhouse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are.... By mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play, if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he (she) became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father-mother's affection.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that this is the most civilized that human beings have ever been, this modern so-called civilization.

Prabhupāda: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Śva-viḍ-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Śva-viḍ... How selected words in the Bhāgavatam. Śva-vi-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This desire to accumulate money, is this just like annamaya stage?

Prabhupāda: That is doggish. The example, he has got already one loaf, but another dog: "This is also my stock." Why you should hanker after another? You have got already. Be satisfied. "No." That is doggish mentality. (end)

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: This is open. We can walk. (break) Nirākāra, impersonalist, "God is formless"—that is another way of denying God, gentlemanly way of denying God. "Yes, there is God, but He has no head." (chuckles) What kind of God? "He has no head. He has no tail, He has no leg, He has... He cannot see. He cannot eat." Then what He is? This is another way of denying God. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...reasonable to put forward the argument that if man can do all of these things, then God must be able to do at least those things plus more.

Prabhupāda: No. God has no head. Then what can he do?

Devotee (2): I asked one lady, she said, "God wants to test your faith that... Ultimately He has no form, but He wants to test your faith to see if you..."

Prabhupāda: No, how He'll test? He has no head. How He'll test? Unless one has got head, how he can act with brain? Where you get this idea that one has no head, still he has got brain? Where you get this idea? Hm? The brain substance is within the head. This is our experience. So where do you get this idea that He has no head and still He has got brain? Hm? What is the answer?

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Harikeśa: They just don't want to accept, no matter what.

Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have no argument, they have no logic, so what is the use of talking? What is the use? Simply waste of time.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it better if someone argues against our philosophy or if someone doesn't argue at all and simply doesn't accept it either?

Prabhupāda: No, if he argues... If you can understand that by argument, if you come to conclusion, they will accept, then talk with them. If they remain dog, what is the use of talking with a dog? Dog will never accept any argument. It will remain dog. So better avoid that.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to give good instruction to a dog. It simply barks.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say, they should be neglected.

Harikeśa: Just give them prasādam and kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. No argument. "Please come and take prasādam." That much mercy should be shown to them.

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They put forward the argument sometimes, though, that it is very natural to try to enjoy. Everyone is doing it, so why should we fight the nature? People say like this.

Prabhupāda: You enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Why don't you see to this? Therefore this is not the way of enjoyment. We say there is enjoyment. Just like a diseased person, he wants enjoyment. How he can enjoy? He is diseased person. It is not possible for the diseased person to enjoy. First of all he has to cure his disease. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). First of all, your existence should be purified by tapasya. Be cured of the disease. Then you'll enjoy. Enjoyment is your right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is your right, but you are now diseased. Why don't you see to this? You are dying therefore. You are becoming old therefore. This is your disease. That they will not admit. In the diseased condition they want to enjoy. Then tuberculosis. If a tuberculosis person, suffering from tuberculosis, he wants to enjoy sex, that means he will die very soon. His life is finished. But he wants that, that "I shall suffer from tuberculosis, at the same time enjoy." Then all right, go to hell. What can be done? Enjoyment is the life, but when you are diseased, you must first of all "Heal thyself," then enjoy. That enjoyment will be nice. This is the instruction of śāstra, that you are working so hard day and night like hogs and dogs, but where is your enjoyment? First of all cure your disease. Then you will be happy. Simply working hard like hogs and dogs, you are thinking that you will enjoy. That is not possible. Hogs and dogs, they simply work hard, but there is no enjoyment. Is there any enjoyment in the life of dogs and hogs? They simply work hard, that's all. So human life is also meant for that purpose, that you will blindly work like hogs and dogs and no enjoyment? Still you are hankering after enjoyment. You should know what is enjoyment, how to do it. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Now... Yes, that we can say like this, that "two plus two equal to four"—this is applicable to the Hindus, Muslim, Christian, everyone. This is science.

Professor: Yes. No, no, I understand. I understand. I know where your argument is going to. But any case, let us beg to differ. Because... Let us accept it. I just want to say I agree with you in this sense. I agree with you in this sense, Swami, that if we do not pay attention to the religious side, then we keep the people in darkness. We have to, on the religious side too. (someone entering) Professor Olivier, the rector. (introducing) ...And this is our Swami Bhaktivedanta.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The principal of the university, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you?

Professor: And Mister (indistinct) Singh from Pietermaritzburg, and Professor Maharaj you know. And all the other ladies and gentlemen.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit beside Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Professor: Yes.

Morning Walk -- October 9, 1975, Durban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very reasonable argument, but how do we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles...

Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhāgavata.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does that mean that it's farther away from the earth than the... Does that mean that the earth is farther from the moon than from the sun?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Sun is in the center of the universe, and other planets there are above the sun and lower the sun. Sun is in the middle of the universe.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the moon...

Prabhupāda: Everything is there. The whole, what is called, radius, no, diameter, from one point to another of the universe is given there. Pañcāśat-koṭi-yojana. Pañcāśat means fifty, and koṭi means ten million. So fifty into ten million. Huh? 500,000,000. Pañcāśat-koṭi. And eight.

Morning Walk -- October 9, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Dogmatic, no. Why we should waste our time talking with such foolish men? "I don't believe." No, what... You believe or not believe; fact is fact. You are going to be old man. If you say "I don't believe," then is that a very good proposition? It does not depend on your believing or not believing. The nature's course will take place. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That will go on. What is there in your believing and not believing? If you keep yourself in such darkness that "If you believe, then it is fact," then you are a fool, rascal. If you depend only on your belief, then you are a fool. What is the meaning of your belief? "I believe if I touch fire it will not burn." Will this belief protect me? You touch fire; it will burn. You believe or not believe. What is this argument, "We don't believe"? This is going on. If nature's law is that you must die, then if you believe, "No, I'll not die," will that belief protect you? You have to submit to the nature's law. Why don't you understand this? You are talking of "believe and not believe." Whole world is going on in this way: "We think," "I suppose," "Perhaps," "I believe," like this. Where is science? Science does not depend on your "belief, not belief, supposing, perhaps." This is not science. But they are going on like that. Whole Darwin's theory is based on this, "Maybe millions of years past..." We want perfect knowledge, not such, what is called, saṁśayam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayaṁ, "without any doubt." That is knowledge. And samagram, "complete." So if we have got the chance of knowing complete, without any doubt, so why shall I go to you, rascal? Your knowledge is based on "perhaps, maybe." I will have to go somewhere to take knowledge, so why not go to Kṛṣṇa, where the knowledge is complete and without any doubt? Why shall I go to you, you rascal? You simply say "maybe, perhaps, I think." What is the use of this knowledge? We don't accept. You cannot say that "You are right; I am wrong" because you are also going to somebody to get knowledge, I am also going to somebody to get knowledge. So here it assured, that "complete knowledge without any doubt." But you have no such confidence. Am I right or not?

Morning Walk -- October 9, 1975, Durban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The difficulty arises in... We say, well, you have to grow old. And then we say the moon is so high above the sun. So...

Prabhupāda: So how can you deny it? First of all tell me. You have not gone there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I haven't gone, but the argument...

Prabhupāda: No, no. The scientists. I challenge that he has not gone there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (to someone:) Pay your obeisances.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. I have not gone, you have not gone, but I have got this authentic literature; you have nothing. So my position is better than yours. You are fool. You are befooled because you are simply contemplating. But I have got a definite literature, information. So my position is better than yours. Whose car is it? Oh, some of them are chanting? Jaya. (end)

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. It is lump of matter. So you take a lump of matter and fertilize a life.

Harikeśa: Well, I’m convinced. There's nothing… (laughing) … nothing left to say.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is that the scientists are claiming they can do so many big things, but they can’t even manufacture one egg.

Prabhupāda: That's it. And these rascals are talking very big, big words. That has to be stopped, that “Don’t talk nonsense and bluff people and take high salary, simply cheating. Don’t cheat any more. Admit that you cannot do anything. You simply bluff. That's all.” That is to be done.

Harikeśa: “Well, with all our research we’re finding cures to so many diseases. With our research…”

Prabhupāda: That, you nonsense, you go on doing, but no disease is stopped. You… Futile attempt.

Harikeśa: "But twenty years ago there was so much smallpox everywhere. But now…"

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. You have stopped smallpox, but you have increased cancer. So what is the use?

Harikeśa: "Now we are finding a cure for that also."

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Prabhupāda: Simply it is for Darwin, "sometime." To support his rascaldom, nature has to serve him “sometimes. “Just see. We have to believe. Nature's law is the same, symmetrical. Nature is not obliged to serve Mr. Darwin, the rascal. Sometimes. He says, "sometimes." He did, and he knew it only and nobody knew. We have to believe that. Sometimes it was done, and it was revealed to Darwin. How he came to know? Nobody could understand. Only Darwin could understand? There was no other?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They use the same argument against us, though, that… They use the same argument against us that so few people can understand God…

Prabhupāda: No. We don’t say like that. We say that God first spoke to sun-god, and sun-god spoke to his son, Manu, and Manu spoke to Ikṣvāku, Ikṣvāku spoke to his son. In this way are there. We don’t say, "The God spoke to me." Evaṁ paramparā prāptam, that is quite reasonable. God said to Brahmā, and the Brahmā said to Nārada, Nārada said to Vyāsadeva, Vyāsadeva said to others. In this way we should know. If my father said to my forefather… My forefather said to my father or my grandfather, and the same news is coming in family way, then where is the wrong? We don’t say, "Darwin simply knew it." No, we don’t say that. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam. He was a rascal number one, all these scientists, the so-called scientists.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Morning Walk -- October 17, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not simply by rubber stamp.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. (break)

Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore."

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). The first term is "surrender," praṇipāta. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end)

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: ...poor people have to stand in queue. It is a mostly...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) They use this argument against us, that the Vedic culture was most solidly founded in India.

Prabhupāda: But you have, I mean to say, curbed down. This rascal civilization, they could not take the Western civilization, and they lost their own civilization. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture. You understand?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.

Prabhupāda: So I can kill you; I am your guru.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who can say anything? I can kill you. Why police is there? I can say, "He is my disciple. He has fully surrendered. I can kill him." That's all. Will that argument save me from police action?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. The child is so dependent on the mother, if the mother mistreats the opportunity, she also is punished.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: But if the child would cause the mother so much anxiety...

Prabhupāda: Don't talk like foolish. Don't talk of that. It is waste of time. If it is the property of the mother, mother can kill at any time. Why at a certain point if the mother kills child she is hanged? If the mother has got the liberty to kill the child, she can kill at any time.

Harikeśa: Even the big, big philosophers simply say that life doesn't start until it comes out of the womb. They are just convinced of it. They are just convinced of it. No matter what argument you give, they are just simply convinced.

Prabhupāda: How they are convinced? Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's argument is that if life is not there in the womb, then how it develops?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the point. Just like the eggs. If there is no life, how the chicken comes? Why don't you manufacture an egg and bring life from it? That was... The other day I was talking. So because you are tenth-class rascal you cannot understand how the life is there. A seed. Take a seed. Unless there is life, how a big tree comes out of it? You manufacture something like that, imitating, and bring life. Life is there. Because you are tenth-class rascal you do not know.

Harikeśa: They also bring up the insane argument that life...

Prabhupāda: "Insane argument." How we have...? We have no time to hear such insane argument.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But these demons, Prabhupāda, they pose themselves as being very religious. They pose themselves as being very religious.

Prabhupāda: How they are religious?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cite scripture.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk through there.

Prabhupāda: These arguments are not sufficient to defeat the atheists?

Harikeśa: People in general might accept it, but the scientists could always come up with...

Prabhupāda: No, why the scientists will not accept?

Harikeśa: Well, they don't want to accept.

Prabhupāda: But that is another thing, obstinacy.

Harikeśa: Just like they... In Australia they created those enzymes which were moving and were the basic components of life. So then they say, "Well, we've gone so far and created these first enzymes, the initial component of life. So we'll put them together in the future." And people... That may be an argument. It's not a very good one, but they will accept. All the scientists will accept it, that they've gone so far and done that.

Prabhupāda: No, then who is the scientist who is producing so many lives? You have not met him, but actually we see what you are trying to become successful in future, it is already there. Now, who is that big scientist? Why don't you find him out? Why don't you call him and give him Nobel Prize? Why you are taking? You are rascal. What is their answer? Already things are coming. There are so many lives, so that you are killing lives, being afraid of overpopulation. So he is creating so many lives that you think of it as overpopulation, overproduction. So what is your credit if you suppose in future you create one life? What credit you are going to give him? (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...experimentation, Śrīla Prabhupāda

Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: ...machine is recording, but as soon as electricity stops—the machine is there—it will not record. You cannot say the machine is the ultimate. Machine is there; it will not record as soon as the electricity is missing. So that electricity, either you say soul or something else, you replace it. Just like electricity means the battery you charge, it will work, again record. Similarly, if you say "That is not soul, something missing," so you can replace it. What is that something? That something also you do not know. Then how can you refute my argument, soul? You do not know anything. I at least know something on the basis of śāstra. But you have neither śāstra nor experiment, nothing else. So who is strong? I am strong or you are strong?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Our position is very weak against these arguments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got some evidences—Kṛṣṇa is speaking, the Vedic śāstra... And what you have got? Simply your speaking? What you are, nonsense? Your speaking should be accepted? And Kṛṣṇa's speaking will be rejected? I have got some support, but what support you have got except your statement? Then everyone can give a statement and he becomes an authority.

Prabhupāda: This is the... This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned..." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā, rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly, "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt: "Kick out whatever you nonsense learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum... You know this?

Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi:

Girl devotee (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know? What is that? Argumentum vaculum? Hm? With fools and rascals, with animals, there is no logic. Take the stick and beat them. The dog, if he is a dog, what is the argument with him? Take the stick and beat him; then he will go away. That is called argumentum baculum. That is, Sanskrit logic, also said, murkhasya laṭau śādhi (?) "One who is a fool, his only remedy is beating him with stick." This is material. But we are not doing anything material. It is all spiritual. Therefore, especially in this age, Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ (sadā hariḥ)

(CC Adi 17.31)

So we should preach like this, any rascal, because anyone who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. That's all. That we must know. That is definite. There is no mistaking it. But if you say that "You are rascal. There is no mistaking it," then you cannot preach. If you directly call a rascal a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta...: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that's all." Then you'll not be able to preach. So you have to become very humble, tṛṇād api sunīcena, humbler than the grass. Just like everyone is trampling over the grass. It doesn't protest, "Why you are going, keeping your leg on my head?" But that is the... Tṛṇād api sunīcena. Go on trampling. Hundreds' and hundreds' people are trampling over the grass; they don't protest. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. The tree is standing. You sit down. When there is scorching heat, you take pleasure by sitting down under the shade.

Morning Walk -- November 1, 1975, Nairobi:

Brahmānanda: But formerly I had drunk water.

Prabhupāda: No, formerly, three hundred years, you had some water; therefore the water is coming out. This is all nonsense. Seven generation before my great-grandfather ate some ghee, and still I have got the smell. (laughter) It is that argument. Huh? This kind of argument has no value. Water is... You can create water from your body. What is there? You are a doctor. What is your...? Eh? Medical men they are. No? Water is created. How the blood is created? He did not drink blood. This is nonsense argument. How we create blood? It is becoming. You do not know how it is, but you have got such potency that blood is being created. You even do not know how the blood is being done, but it is being. That is inconceivable energy. There are so many secretions. They are coming within the body. So everything is there. By God's supreme energy they are being automatically. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). God has got multi-energies.

Morning Walk -- November 1, 1975, Nairobi:

Devotee (8): Devotional service must be unconditional, or else it will drive us away.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a child is surrendered to the parents. The parents say, "Sit down here." He sit down. That's all. No argument. That is surrender.

Indian (10): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we speak of parts and parcels of God, does it mean that we were there with God before we came to this world?

Prabhupāda: You are part and parcel then? What is that?

Brahmānanda: If we are part and parcels of God does it mean that we were with God before coming to the...

Prabhupāda: You are always with God, even your rebellious condition, you are with God. Just like a prisoner. A prisoner is always with the government, (laughter) but in one department he is kicked, and in one department he is patted. That's all. So if you prefer to be kicked, you remain in māyā. But you are always in connection with God.

Morning Walk -- November 4, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is the explanation of the body dies.

Indian (3): (indistinct) that poison is ineffective (several talk at once)

Dr. Patel: No, I think your argument is... (break)

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: I have to do something with my leg. Bring the car here.

Prabhupāda: So Ambarisa Mahārāja, is our argument all right?

Ambarisa: Yes. Yes, it's good argument. It's very sound.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) What others' argument? This is my challenge.

Yaśomatīnandana: Mr. Dhrug was pointing out...

Prabhupāda: Where is that materialistic leader? Here is. What is your argument? Huh? (laughter)

Morning Walk -- November 14, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They believe in too much their eyes. Although eyes are... Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the..., externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities? Then why shall I assert that "There is no living... I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are rascal. And if he says that "I cannot see," is it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, no...

Dr. Patel: And the rate of movement is different on either side. And the axis or ground on which it moves also differs. So when all of them collide or sort of a thing, then eclipse comes. That is the modern understanding.

Prabhupāda: And the... When Brahmānanda was speaking that word yesterday, I refuted your argument?

Brahmānanda: You were asking, "Why is it Sunday, Monday..." So I explained that the sun is the center of the universe; therefore the sun comes first.

Dr. Patel: No, various suns are there. All the stars are the suns of various universes.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. No. Sun is one.

Dr. Patel: That is the fundamental difference of opinion that we don't go ahead of it, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, why shall I go according to the dictation of the rascals? We are not so rascal.

Morning Walk -- November 20, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita.

Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Śaṅkarācārya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the...

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Keśava Kāśmīrī and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...read that portion, ātmarāma ca munayo?

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I have just day before yesterday. I am reading Bhāgavata again. I am in the sixth adhyāya, after nearly finishing all the vṛttānta of Nārada Muni's previous birth and all this. Ātmarāma. Yes. That śloka is repeated by so many Vaiṣṇavas everywhere.

Prabhupāda: (break) You are going to canvass for books? No.

Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)

Mahāṁsa: So first of all Acyutānanda... I wasn't there, but Acyutānanda and Yaśodānanda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharmān... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then it went on, who is Kṛṣṇa. And then finally Acyutānanda and Yaśodānanda were quoting so many ślokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every śloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said—he could not fight back—so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our ślokas.

Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi:

Harikeśa: It may be true that we have no knowledge, but we don't think we need God to...

Prabhupāda: "Maybe" means rascal. As soon as you say "maybe," you are a rascal, immediately. There is no other argument. As soon as you say "maybe," that means you are a rascal.

Harikeśa: Well, definitely we don't know.

Prabhupāda: Therefore rascal. (laughter) Therefore rascal. We definitely know Kṛṣṇa, the origin of everything. That is definite, not "It may be." We don't say "Kṛṣṇa may be." No. Definitely. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Here is Bhagavān. Here is God. That is definite. Therefore our professor...

Haṁsadūta: Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Who has written foreword to my Bhagavad-gītā?

Harikeśa: Dimmock.

Prabhupāda: Dimmock. "Here is definitive..."

Haṁsadūta: Version.

Nitai: "Definitive edition."

Prabhupāda: "Definitive edition." That is the credit. Not "may be." No "maybe," sir. That is rascaldom.

Harikeśa: In our social science we find that God is only necessary to define the unknown. Otherwise He has no purpose.

Prabhupāda: No, our God is not unknown. Known. We know God's residence. We know God's father, God's mother, God's activities, God's friends. Everything we know. There is no "maybe."

Morning Walk -- December 3, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Why there is water? This water means the shoes, dirt, it will be dirty. So you have no eyes to see?

Viśāla: I am blind. I am sorry. I will see that it is cleaned for you.

Prabhupāda: Then become with eyes. Simply praying, what you will do? Do something practical.

Harikeśa: This is the argument people always throw against us. "Simply praying, what will you do? Do something practical." They say this all the time.

Prabhupāda: Everyone will say that.

Devotee or Vraja-vāsī: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. So they are guests. They are coming. Kṛṣṇa says everything practical. He never says that "You press your nose and everything will come." He never said like that. "You become a yogi by pressing your nose, and keep your head downward, and then you'll become perfect and everything will come." He never says. And Arjuna also never accepts anything impractical. That is Bhagavad-gītā. As soon as Kṛṣṇa said that "You practice yoga by this way " immediately Kṛṣṇa said "My dear Kṛṣṇa it is not possible, for me. I cannot control my mind." Vāyor eva suduskara. "It is impossible as to control the air." If somebody says, "I shall control the air..." So these things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, all practical. Kṛṣṇa was accepted the Supreme Lord by His practical instruction and practical features. They are not following Kṛṣṇa themselves also. That is the difficulty. (break) What is going on here? (Break) Private.

Morning Walk -- December 11, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah. That is you rascal you can say. Unless he has (sic) no life, how it is growing? Such a rascal...

Harikeśa: It's a lump.

Prabhupāda: ...they cannot understand. Does a dead child grow? Simply speaking nonsense!

Harikeśa: That's their whole argument for abortion.

Prabhupāda: That's alright but...

Harikeśa: You just finished it! (laughing)

Prabhupāda: ...but our point is, the birth problem is not solved. If there are unwanted population, you kill them that does not mean the population problem is solved.

Hari-śauri: They're not actually seeing the actual causes of the problems.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: They're not actually seeing the causes of the problems so they're trying to adjust to them.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Prabhupāda: That's alright. Who made that positive charge and negative charge?

Akṣayānanda: So let them manufacture lightning bolts in the Tata factory.

Prabhupāda: How the electricity is produced unless there is some arrangement? Just put counter-argument and argument, try to understand. You have to preach. So your argument stopped?

Harikeśa: I don't know anything about this. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: You cannot... Your malador masjid(?). Arguments are there, so whether there is life in the sun globe?

Indian man: (Hindi—discussion with Śrīla Prabhupāda and other Indian men about śāstra, scientists, agni, and the example of the iron factory)

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also.

Harikeśa: But the life is the workers not the fire.

Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument.

Akṣayānanda: But they can't jump in the fire and live. They will die.

Prabhupāda: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad-gītā there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adāhyaḥ, adāhyaḥ. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he's in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn.

Akṣayānanda: But why should we accept that, because to make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Akṣayānanda: To make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Akṣayānanda: To make the factory... We have made such a nice factory for fire, so we did not need to consult Bhagavad-gītā for that.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what he is saying.

Harikeśa: He's saying he built a factory but he didn't use Bhagavad-gītā to do it.

Prabhupāda: So who says that without Bhagavad-gītā you cannot ignite fire?

Akṣayānanda: So why should we accept that the living entity will not die.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is authority. If you do not accept, then this is the example, argument. That the factory surrounded by fire, it does not mean there is no life. From distance, you are seeing the sun from a very, very, 95 or 93 million miles away. Fiery it is undoubtedly, but it is exactly like that: that you see from a distant place, the iron factory, it is simply fiery. Your experience is from distance. You have not gone there. So the distance experience is like this, that you see there is fire, big fire, but still there are life. You have to accept this argument.

Harikeśa: Actually it is perfectly reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: In the fire there's fiery bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "They take," they... Don't quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don't you accept authority of Bhagavad-gītā, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gītā. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Kṛṣṇa says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority. And (if) Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead says, (then) "Oh, that we cannot accept." Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Kṛṣṇa is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped."

Prabhupāda: If there is no authority, why do you quote so many rascals? Then come to reason, argument, that's all. If you quote authority, I have got my authority.

Harikeśa: So this fire... That makes sense.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Harikeśa: This fire, it makes sense. That there's life in fire.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is argument. When you do not accept authority, there must be reason and argument.

Harikeśa: But this ether thing is very troublesome.

Prabhupāda: Troublesome for you! (laughter)

Harikeśa: Yes. You said sound is in the ether.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: So that is also a very good argument. I remember you gave that one.

Harikeśa: So the air is coming from the ether, so...

Prabhupāda: Because in the air there is sound. Therefore ether is there. It is a production of the ether.

Harikeśa: So would it be beneficial to try to understand the process of production? Like the example of the earth coming from the water. Because the water evaporates, there is left over minerals and salts and all these things...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: And the fire producing the water from excess heat. Like in the summer season and then the monsoon comes. And fire from air, from the friction generating electric current. But the air from the ether needs an example.

Prabhupāda: Air from the ether because when the air blows, you find the sound, sshhhh. That is ether.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, like some...

Harikeśa: But the example's got to go the other way. From the ether comes the air.

Prabhupāda: That you found out, example. But this is the proof there is ether within the air. That example is given many times in Bhagavad-gītā.

Harikeśa: Sometimes the trees just die because there's not sufficient . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the standard that you do not like somebody, therefore he is not liked by others. That is not very good argument. That is applicable everywhere. The point is that it is a living entity, it so stout and strong, who is giving him food? That is the point.

Harikeśa: Well, my argument was sometimes he's not being supplied the proper way so therefore economic development is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Alright. That is your... Out of 8,400,000 forms of life, the economic development is taken, a few only. Why others they're developing without any economy? There are so many other living entities

Harikeśa: Well for example, the bees or the ants, they're, the bees are making hives.

Prabhupāda: They are also.

Harikeśa: They are developing a big bee-hive.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is collection of food. The trees also do that. They are called pāda-pa. Pāda-pa means they drink water by the legs. You drink water by the mouth and they drink water by the legs. Pāda-pa. Just like the, what is called? Bats. They pass stool through the mouth. Is it not? You do not know this? Yes. (laughter) You'll find the bats, they are hanging down the head, and they're passing stool. Sometimes man also does so, when there is strangulation. That is very dangerous disease. What is called? Intestine strangulation. Then passing stool through the mouth. In Bengal sometimes they curse, "You'll pass stool through the mouth!" Yes, sometimes they do. Sometimes they eat through the rectum. Do you know that?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: What he says, sir...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not argument about him. I mean to say, Vaiṣṇava means para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava should be always duḥkhī for others. Vaiṣṇava personally, he has no duḥkha. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja says, naivodhvije para duratyay vaitaranyas tvad-viya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittaḥ, soce tato vimukh-cetasa. They are simply anxious for the persons who are godless. That is their... Even they are godless, even they are enemy of the devotee, still Vaiṣṇava thinks, "How I can correct him?" Not that "He's my enemy. Let him die." "How I shall correct him?" That is Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is under ignorance, he is talking nonsense—"How shall I correct him?" That is missionary spirit.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya, because he had to deliver people from this nāstika philosophy, bauddha, so for the time being, he made some compromise. The bauddha says there is no God, and he said, "Yes, there is no God. You are God." So if he realizes himself brahma-bhūtaḥ, then he'll be engaged in devotional service, that was his purpose. Unless he says that, that "Yes, it is not the fact that there is no God. There is God, but that God you are."

Dr. Patel: That is the final argument is that if there is no God, who said there is no God? And that is God. That is what he said.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) So you know better than me.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I did not know this, I read it...

Prabhupāda: But I know, what is his policy? His policy was to make this godless men to think of God, that "I am God." That is.... Let him be accustomed with the word God, then gradually he will understand. It is called ahaṅgrahopāsana. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Therefore I shall worship myself. Ahaṅgrahopāsana Nikatena, jagatena, ekatena. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata, ekatena. That "I am Brahma. So I shall worship myself."

Haṁsadūta: Very perfect.

Harikeśa: Completely smashed all the opposition. No more arguments.

Prabhupāda: So you have to do this, to fight all these rascals.

Harikeśa: 'Cause all philosophy is based on the proposition that "I am this body."

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Harikeśa: Or "I am this..."

Prabhupāda: Then he remains the same animal, cats and dogs. There is no advancement. Therefore you see despite so many rascal philosophers in the Western countries, they simply fight and bomb and cheat and politics, diplomacy. The same—on the surface of the coconut, not inside. So you have to prove that "All of you are rascals. You do not know where to get pleasure." They're missing that point. All rascals, they're putting new philosophy, thesis. So what is the value of that thesis? He does not know. It requires expert. Just like somebody has told: "In this land, there is gold." So somebody's digging here, somebody's digging there, somebody's digging there. And they are, do not find gold, and struggling. But one expert, what is called, soil expert?

Harikeśa: Geologist.

Harikeśa: So actually everything.... All the arguments they bring up is simply the material thesis. There is no antithesis 'cause.... Just like hot and cold. Hot is...

Prabhupāda: No. They're seeking—the same example—the enjoyable thing, on the platform of shell of the coconut, fibers of the coconut. They do not know that within the shell, within the fiber, there is coconut. That they do not know. You said two sides. But they do not know the other side. They only know the one side, the body. There will be synthesis when there are two. But they have no two. They simply one subject matter, the body, and that is useless struggle. It is just like Māyāvādīs. Neti neti: "Not this, not this. Not this, not this." Therefore they advocate revolution, that something is going on for some days; again revolution. That means "Not this." Neti neti. The experiment says.... Experiment. Everyone is doing that. They are trying to derive happiness through some system or idea of adjustment, but it becomes spoiled and useless after some time. Therefore they say another revolution required.

Prabhupāda: Useless speculation.

Harikeśa: But this, this argument that's being brought up here, actually people are thinking about a lot, that there's an idea and there's, there's a fact...

Prabhupāda: That argument is.... Just like I told you, in my childhood I was thinking in the gramophone box there is a man. I could not think at that time without a man how this gramophone can sing so nicely. So there is a man, and as soon as the record is..., he gives, he sings. That.... I was thinking like that.

Harikeśa: So he would say that you thought there was a man there, but actually there wasn't.

Prabhupāda: And somebody say one ghost. Or somebody may say something.

Harikeśa: But there wasn't.

Prabhupāda: But they're all imperfect knowledge. I may say man, you may say ghost, others may say something, but all of them are rascaldom. It has no value.